Budo : Aikido and Judo

[silent_mind]

Hi!
My names Andy, and this is my first post at e-budo.com, and I'd just like to say what a great site I think this is. Please read my profile and feel free to email me anytime.
Anyways...
I've been reading alot of posts concerning Judo and Aikido. I've also found that alot of questions here are quite concerning.
I was going to add reply's to alot of posts, but then thought it wiser to perhaps post a thread.
People have been asking 'is Aikido and Judo the same?', 'How do I ask my sensei this?', 'is Aikido soft?' and something that does get on my nerves is the interpretation of teachings and what Budo actually is.
Now I could rant and rave about this all day, and I probably will! But I would just like to ask a few questions of my own....(and its kinda rhetorical).

If a martial art is tough, does this make it effective?
If a martial art is soft, does this make it less effective?

What is tough? What is soft?

What are the differences between martial arts? (I do not mean the style) I mean goals, fundamental aspects.

What is Budo for you?

What kind of relationship do you have with your sensei?

Thanx very much, I look forward to seeing what people put. I will put my answers after I've had a cup of tea!

[Jack B]

Hi Andy! Make mine Twinings' Prince of Wales, hot, no sweetener.

Good principle makes good budo. Tough fighters (karate, judo) in a system that restricts combative options may be at a disadvantage when the rules are off. Also good principle is consistent, thus allowing automatic responses to develop.

Oddly enough, the "soft" systems like tai ch'i and aiki no jutsu are often considered the most powerful. Possibly since the practitioners can continue developing preternatural skill even after their physical power leaves them.

One note on cooperative training (see previous discussion (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=15401)). In most aikido systems (as well as beginning judo and karate) the attacker allows the technique to work on him. This allows the beginning student to learn the technique as it is supposed to work. Later the senior increases the power of the attack and uses counter-techniques to force the student to upgrade. In most koryu the teacher always performs the attacking role so he can modulate the instruction to push the student's capabilities without injuring or disheartening him. Unless he needs an ego adjustment...

You may want to save some of your questions for other threads. We have enough problem with thread drift even with only one topic to start!

[ChrisHein]

welcom aboard andy,

hey you didn't sign your post, better be carful or the e-budo nazi's will be all over your butt!

If a martial art is tough, does this make it effective?
The answer is yes, if i endure hard training and let myself be ok with harsh conditions and get used to working through them i will be more effective, both pysically, and psycologically.

If a martial art is soft, does this make it less effective?
this is a tricky question, what do you mean by soft? if you mean internal principle vs. strength oriented, then soft is better. if your soft in that respect you will alway get better, even after your physical limitations have been met. But if you mean floppy fall on the ground get kicked in the face soft, then no indeed your prolly in for some trouble. or if you mean soft training (oh i don't wanna go today my toe hurts, oh i might be getting a cold, better lay of, don't wanna go to hard today boy i sure ate a big meal) yea soft training dosent' lead to much besides maybe a fun hobby.

What is tough?
1 a : strong or firm in texture but flexible and not brittle b : not easily chewed
2 : GLUTINOUS, STICKY
3 : characterized by severity or uncompromising determination
4 : capable of enduring strain, hardship, or severe labor
5 : very hard to influence : STUBBORN
6 : difficult to accomplish, resolve, endure, or deal with <a tough question> <tough luck>
7 : stubbornly fought <a tough contest>
8 : UNRULY, ROWDYISH
9 : marked by absence of softness or sentimentality
thats what websters has to say about it.

What is soft?
see above.

What are the differences between martial arts? (I do not mean the style) I mean goals, fundamental aspects.
Well at the origian of all martial arts is the desier to be martial. being martial usually means being physically(although some times non-physical) capable of protecting your self and others in a crysis situation, and/or being able to slay those you deem unexseptable. like in war, coming from Mars the god of war.
then after that we tack on other stuff, like aikido, i belive O-sensei wanted (in the end) to make a martial arts that could be martial, and not have to kill or mame the other guy. I think Kano made some judo so people could fight each other very intensely and yet walk away friends. same but differnt.

To me budo is a word and words have deffinitions, I don't really know if i myself have a deffinition, so i don't know.

[silent_mind]

I agree with you Jack on the points you have made.
I do not think I made myself clear on the point of my thread however.

Do you agree that both soft and tough systems work? That in a way there is no tough and no soft. That a beginner will find it 'tough', where as a senior grade will find it softer on the body to perform a technique? Someone studying TKD could call the training of an aikidoka soft, because they see the style as being perhaps 'softer' than theres. Is there a conflict between calling a MA soft because of the style of training? I would say that that the training 'I have seen' of BJJ is very intense, but that is what I have seen. But a martial art when you study it becomes your martial art, my form of Judo, my Aikido etc. And therefore it is as soft or as tough as you want it to be, and the intensity of training depends on the individual. What is soft? What is tough? - doesn't matter as long as it is effective! Do you agree?

This links in with the question that was asked -'is Aikido and Judo the same?', the training, the techniques and some of the traditions will not be the same, but at a high level, they are the same. Does this make sense? Does my thinking differ greatly from others?
For example if you attacked O-sensei (Founder of Aikido) or Jigoro Kano (Founder of Judo) in the same way, what MA would you say they used to counter your attack? Could you tell the difference? What would that difference be? - does it matter?

I am on both sides of the same circle with Judo on one hand, and Aikido on the other, but my philosophy is that with maximum intensity of training comes effeciency of technique, and then comes effectiveness of technique, but all these things are together, one does not really come before the other. Do you see my point?

Alot of questions asked in these forums, even about how to ask your sensei something is shocking. I know because I ask my sensei, I am able to ask because he is my teacher, he would not be my sensei if I could not trust him, and I know how to ask him because he is my friend. This is an entirely different subject, but I think it is important.

Why did you mention the co-operative side of martial arts Jack? I wasn't thinking about these, but I see your point.

Thanx

[David T Anderson]

Originally posted by silent_mind

If a martial art is tough, does this make it effective?
If a martial art is soft, does this make it less effective?

Hi Andy -- For starters, I think your terminology is a little off here. Any martial art can be 'tough' if it involves a lot of effort and pain. But any Aikidoka will tell you that the effectiveness of his art doesn't rely on strength or causing damage to his partner [and this would be my definition of 'soft]. I suppose it's easier to win a fight by learning to punch and kick, but again, this presumes that you have a lot of strength and are willing to hurt your opponent. If that's your definition of effectiveness, okay. But if you _aren't_ big or especially strong, or you want to stop an attacker _without_ busting him up...then isn't Aikido the more effective art?



Originally posted by silent_mind

What are the differences between martial arts? (I do not mean the style) I mean goals, fundamental aspects.

In my mind there is one main difference. You can use your Art to make war, or to make peace. If you want to make war, then it's a matter of what technique does the most harm most effectively. If you want to make peace, then it's a little more complex...but more rewarding too. [And every Aikidoka knows that his art can cause a _lot_ of harm if practiced in a certain way...our choice is not to do it].


[i]Originally posted by silent_mind

What is Budo for you?

For me, Budo is a way of life that prepares you mentally, physically and spiritually to meet and endure conflict, and to prevail against it. Some people want to achieve this by being the roughest, toughest SOB in town, but it may not be the best way.

A couple of years ago here, two schoolkids get into a fight over a girl...it was one of those classic deals where the two boys show up at the far end of the football field to duke it out, and everybody in school. Well, one teenage boy went down, and the other walked away victorious. Sound like a good time? Not really...the kid that went down died, and the other one went up on murder charges. [He was very recently acquitted]. If either of those kids had spend time in an Aikido dojo, do you think that outcome would have been more or less likely?

Not every conflict requires a 'hard' solution...maybe very few of them do. But if all you know is kicking and punching and how to _destroy the enemy_, how can you avoid making a more violent world? I believe that The Way of The Warrior has more to do with seeking peace than victory.



Originally posted by silent_mind

What kind of relationship do you have with your sensei?

Well, my sensei is an Episcopal priest, so he is much better qualified to be a spiritual guide than a lot of martial arts instructors...and I say this despite the fact that I am not in any way religious myself. We aren't exactly bosom-buddies, but I regard him as a good friend...if ever I was in trouble, I feel quite sure he'd be there for me.

Good questions!

[silent_mind]

Hi David!
I agree with almost everything you have said, I can tell already that the people who post on this site are passionate and wise.
The question which you refered to at first was a rhetorical question.
Some of my terminology is sketchy, but the point I was trying to make, was (which you did say) any martial art can be tough, depends on the student, and that the toughness or softness of a martial art is independent of its effectiveness. My definition of effectiveness would be with relation to MA's - the highest effeciency of reaching a goal.

Your statement - "any Aikidoka will tell you that the effectiveness of his art doesn't rely on strength or causing damage to his partner." This is true of Aikido, but not all Aikidoka would agree with you, (but then there is the topic of what is a true Aikidoka!)
I would think many people have practised with someone who perhaps uses some unnessacery force with their aikido.
I believe for a student to understand Aikido, they have to see how the technique has changed from Aikijitsu, do you agree? This way they have a better understanding.
In a way I suppose, going back to your comment above, the effectiveness of his art does rely on strength and the ability to cause damage....not from him but his partner. The average Joe will attack you with these two things, strength and the ability to cause damage, so should Aikidoka train to become stronger, so that their partner should benefit when defending?

Here's a nice question to leave with.....

How does the modern Aikidoka fit in with todays Budo?

Thanx

[Jack B]

The soft and hard concepts aren't quite accurate translations of the budo ideas. JU means using the opponents power, whether you are strong or gentle. It is simply the logical efficient way to get your goal, as opposed to the more difficult way of direct opposition. AIKI is more aggressive, implying that you capture and control your enemy's power and mind.

Aikido is the ultimate martial art for civilians. My teacher's personal style will overtake all budo and be recognized as the only viable martial art and true expression of yamatodamashii, which is weird since we're a bunch of cowboys. :laugh:

Have a good solstice holiday everyone! Ho ho ho!

[Phil Farmer]

Maybe this would be a good place for me to wade in, with regard to the Aiki v. Judo that was asked. If you ask Kano or Ueshiba they would say that they are doing their style, but the truth is they are both doing jiujutsu. Kano developed judo from several jiujutsu styles and Ueshiba took daito ryu to a higher level. Kano once saw Ueshiba and said that is the "true" judo, meaning that is how it should be done. He then sent a young man to study with Ueshiba, named Minoru Mochizuki.

Sensei Mochizuki later created a style called Yoseikan budo. In Yoseikan we combine the techniques of judo, jiujitsu, aikido, and others. The soft part of these arts is soft in reference to Ju, which means to be supple, like a willow tree that bends but does not break. The mountain is tall but there are many paths to the same place. You are correct in saying that an aikidoka, judoka, and even a traditional karatedoka would all look similar in their responses at the highest levels.

Phil Farmer

[cguzik]

In Stanley Pranin's book Aikido Masters, there is an interview with Tomiki Sensei in which he states that in his opinion they are not really different. If I recall correctly he states that because the maai are different, the two are practiced differently. Then again, he went to great length to teach them in the same way, so his view may not be shared by others.

Chris

[MarkF]

Phil,
Just a couple of corrections, though the first one is above this post concerning who was sent where, why and so on. Aiki is a by-procuct of judo, but is not taught as separate technique or collection of waza (aiki no jutsu).

Kano probably did say "That is true judo." You have to read between the lines, and the lines that are there. When a pretty upset student questioned Kano on his statement concerning Uyeshiba's, "So what we are learning is not the true judo?" Kano said "No, that is not what I meant. Their [Uyeshiba's) judo is the judo of 180 degrees, our judo is the judo of 90 degress."

As Kano considered judo to be jujutsu technique learned on the way of attaining the precipice of learning true judo, it was a more estoreric sentiment than what is usually quoted.

I agree that, basically, they are both the same thing. The jujutsu of Kano was of the refined type of an academic and scientist, and so many of his priniciples cleared up any mystery to mastering jujutsu, they can't quite be said that he took from this and took from that. Uyeshiba's was also jujutsu, DR aiki jujutsu and DR jujutsu. Only the koshiki no kata, also called the kito-ryu no kata, is the only one with minor changes. The changes were make because the original manner of performing the original. That kata is one of the "superior" kata and was originally done in armor, most likely taken from an older school of kito, Jikishin-ryu (not jikishin kage ryu), where the term Judo was taken. It was probably pronounced yawara no michi or jiu no michi in the seventeenth/eighteenth century, but the kanji are identical to Ju-do, jyu-do, jiu-do, and ju-dou. Jikishin is where we get "ran," or randori, also.

But on the whole, probably ninety percent of the waza is different because the principles of tsukuri and kuzushi (same thing, really, you don't have kuzushi without tsukuri) were either not known, or not used. The idea that a small person (a woman) would be able to throw a man much bigger and stronger was new at the time. Most who pracitced any school of jujutsu did little nage-waza, that was for those who were big and strong, legs set far apart for balance and lifting (tsuri and tsuri-komi) were the prinicles...until Kano's judo.

Also, what Kano saw wasn't what most call aikido nor what he called aikido, it was more likely he was in his DR AJJ period, perhaps aiki budo, but not aikido. He (Uyeshiba) didn't become a hippie until the late fifties and sixties where much of what is practiced today is called aikido (please don't jump down my throat I am only making a point). It probably resembled judo then more so than aikido. It definitly is how it was taught which Kano ultimately saw as a more complete judo. Judo was a way of life and applies to much more than the funny clothes and hard falls.

In judo, existed once a kata called the Go No Kata. It wasn't the forms of five (that is Itsu tsu no kata), but forms of hardness. Since it proved that judo was also a "hard" way, it was because getting out of a simple wrist attack was done with the opposite of the principle of ju. Exceptions sometimes demonstrate themselves very well. This one was of something other than the softness of judo. It has fallen into near-extinction.

Otherwise, Doc, I agree with what you said, and basically is true, it's just that so much is there, also, not covered in your post.


Have a safe new year.


Mark

[MarkF]

Tomiki (shodakan) is probably the closest style to judo. If you can find someone to print you a a copy of "Judo and Aikido" I think it is probably a defining book on both, mainly that there are enough differences to say it, and enough similarities to say, when you tear away the fabric, you will find judo and jujutsu, not to mention aikido in copious quantities.


Mark

[Phil Farmer]

Thanks Mark, for filling in all of the blanks. There was so much I wanted to say but, being between projects at work, I rather prudently did not take the time. I fully agree with your points, especially that the aikido being done at the time was a rather different "animal" than what we have now. Great points.

Phil Farmer

[Dan Harden]

Correction to correction
Mark F was correct in his time frames and whosit's and whatsit's
I would only add that what Ueshiba was doing was nothing but Daito ryu up until 1937 which was when he handed out his last scroll in the art.
What Ueshiba was doing was Daito ryu all through his Aiki-budo years.

As for what Daito ryu was in relation to what Kano was "seeing.".....

This is a quote from Stevens book and several correction that appeared in an Aikido Journal interview where Kissomaru and Tokimune were correcting the many and glaring errors extant in Stevens typical works.

P15: "…(discussing Takeda). He constantly heaped scorn on other teachers and traditions. For example, he once referred to the dignified Jigoro Kano as a "fish peddler"…."
DAITOKAN: We have never heard the story of Sokaku saying such a thing about Jigoro Kano Sensei. However, he did not agree with what Jigoro Kano was doing and did say that it was not "bujutsu" (martial arts) but rather that it was like "physical education". Sokaku and Kano had the sort of relationship when they were young where they would go drinking in Tokyo and so Sokaku would never say such a thing.


*******************************

This is a quote from Sugino Yoshio (undeafted Judoka)
bit of background.
A friend Minoru Mochizuki (present head of the Yoseikan) once commented about his judo skills: “Sugino? That guy has the kami [divine] in him!” One of Sugino’s favorite judo techniques was utsurigoshi (hip shift), a somewhat acrobatic technique in which the opponent’s throwing power is taken advantage of to throw him instead. He was also fond of urawaza (rear techniques) and kaeshiwaza (reversals) and always exploited openings left by opponents who carelessly underestimated him because of his small size. But more than anything he had the confidence that his teacher Iizuka had planted in him.
Sugino continued training in judo rigorously, day after day, constantly thinking of ways to strengthen himself and his technique. Being of a highly assertive disposition to begin with, he never hesitated to express his own opinions, even to his superiors. He once even argued with Jigoro Kano regarding a point of judo technique. Kano said that koshiguruma (hip wheel) and ogoshi (large hip throw) were the same technique. Sugino insisted they were different; for koshiguruma, he said, you load your opponent on your hips, whereas for ogoshi you do not. It was practically unheard of and highly irregular for a judo practitioner to argue about such things with the very founder of the art! But Sugino was of a strongly progressive spirit and never allowed himself to be bound by tradition or authority. Even then, though still relatively young, he was already searching for an answer to the question, “What should modern judo really be like?”

He was also a student of Ueshiba upon first "seeing" Takeda Sokaku's technique. There are several but I include this since it includes Judoka.

Exquisite, fearsome techniques
While Sugino had been somewhat surprised by Ueshiba’s smallish stature, he had still been impressed by his powerful build, but the martial arts master he encountered at an Asahi News-sponsored demonstration in Osaka in 1942 was altogether different. Sugino was watching the other demonstrators as he waited his turn to take the floor. A small man standing less than 150 centimeters stepped into the demonstration area. He seemed so frail and small as to have little more strength than a child. But his gaze! . . . His eyes swept the crowd with a piercing glare. Sokaku Takeda.
The elderly Sokaku stood squarely in the center of the floor, glaring fiercely like one of those statues of fierce-looking, muscular guardian deities that flanking the gates of many Japanese temples. Scowling at him from across the way were his opponents, a group of powerfully built Kodokan judoka. After a hasty introduction, Sokaku began his demonstration. One of the judoka stepped forward and suddenly launched a full-power right-handed chop directed at Sokaku’s head. Sokaku met the blow with his left hand and shifted his body. He grasped the judoka’s right hand and threw him down. “Well now! How about that?!” he shouted.
The next man moved in with another furious strike to Sokaku’s brow. This time Sokaku met the attack with his right hand, shifting and opening his posture again, seizing the attacker’s arm and pinning him easily on his back -- on top of the first attacker! “Next! Come on, quickly, quickly!” The remaining judoka rushed in with similar attacks. Shifting this way and that, Sokaku avoided their strikes and put them down one by one, eventually heaping them into a pile resembling a giant cushion. All wore pained expressions as they tried to wriggle free, but Sokaku pinned them completely by holding their tangled arms lightly in a bundle with one hand.
Sugino felt a shiver up his spine -- part in awe, part fear -- as he watched the elderly Sokaku calmly twist his robust, high-spirited young opponents on to the ground and pin them almost effortlessly. Sokaku’s techniques clearly had nothing to do with physical power. They were, Sugino recognized, high-level applications of certain important principles and represented nothing less than the quintessence of Japanese martial arts.
By that time, Sokaku Takeda had long been a well-known figure in the Japanese martial arts world and his techniques echoed among the martial artists of the day. Sugino knew of him, of course, particularly as the Daito-ryu teacher of Morihei Ueshiba. While he never actually spoke with Sokaku directly and had seen Sokaku demonstrate on this one occasion alone, the diminutive Daito-ryu master left a vivid impression on Sugino that has remained to this day........

Minoro Mochizuki
It seems Mochizuki held the Daito ryu of Ueshiba in high esteem as well.

I just thought since we are talking about our betters we should discuss who they considered to be THEIR betters.


BTW I love Judo, and the little Yoseikan I have seen I greatly enjoyed.
Has anyone discussed the extensive Sutemi waza of early Yoseikan and where it came from. It is different than much that is shown in the more modern Judo is it not?

Cheers
Dan

[Phil Farmer]

This might need to be another thread, but I think I can give some insight into Dan's question. First, though, let me thank Dan and others for such good research. Judo has such a rich history and I know I should be more aware of it. Mochizuki Sensei told every student, once they received their Shodan in Yoseikan, that they should then go get their Shodan in judo, so they could really understand Yoseikan. I think this is still true. Mochizuki Sensei was uchideshi to the great judoka, Mifune.

As to sutemi from early Yoseikan. It is still there. The traditional practice of Yoseikan has all of the sutemi throws still intact and it is considered our trademark. The sutemi originate from the judo throws and from a now dead jiujutsu style call Gokushin ryu jiujitsu. Translated (poorly, I know) it roughly refers to a "sphere" so what you see in our sutemi is wrapping the uke up in a "ball" as we throw. The sutemi are no longer seen in judo because no one knows how to score them as referees. I have a student, who also competes in college judo tournaments, and he used a simple sutemi to throw his opponent and the opponent was given the point when my student touched the ground. Few competition judoka understand kazushi well enough to attempt sutemi. Sutemi are actually very effective alternatives in some very difficult situations. They have been criticized for the thrower going to the ground. What never quite gets mentioned is that it takes a lot of ukemi practice to be able to fall for these throws and an unsuspecting opponent can and would be severely injured in the fall.

I hope that helps with sutemi and Yoseikan. Again, the judo stories and history are great.

Phil Farmer

[INFINOO]

Phil Farmer: You made some great points about sutemi waza. I thought the "secrets of Aiki where supposed to be secret.:D.

Silent Mind: I was the "one" who put forth the question about is Judo the same as Aikido. When I asked question it rhetorical, however some of the reponses made for a good discussion.


David Anderson: You have made some very insightfull post this year. Many have made me pause and give thought.

Everyone else, thanks for the history lessons. This is another great thread. I have learned a great deal from E-Budo this year.

Happy New Year


Gregory Rogalsky

[Dan Harden]

Gokushin ryu jiujitsu?

Phil

I am unfamilair with that school.
Where was that in Mochizuki's resume? Thats interesting. Was it in early judo kata?

The sutemi we use is from Takenouchi Ryu and Sho Sho ryu. I can attest to the "lack" of it in Judo. The little I have seen is the merest attempt at set up and kuzushi with the all to typical "leg up and lift" rounded sutemi. Our versions are set up and straight down, verticle drop, cutting into the legs of the opponent. You are quite correct in the results. Slam and bang! There are some interesting techniques that will cause them to land on the back of the neck, flat on the back, or in a turn.
I bore witness to one of my students 150+ lbs. taking out a 267lb. Judoka sandan repeatedly with sutemi. What made matters worse he told him he was going to do it everytime. The judoka was unable to stop it and got quite p!ssed off. I am not detracting from the Judokas skill as I have played with him and he was a house affire. It just goes to show the "unusual" can sometimes get ya.
Our own Cady Goldfield can attest to the knockout capability of vertical sutemi.
Its martial aspects are quite sound I feel. It works, in so many patterns from front grabs to side, rear, there are an amazing set of arm bars, gi (coat)grabs, helmut wraps (neck cranks) that if they are "finished" with a sutemi waza could kill you. I know of several that you simply cannot perform to completion they would die. Others that make you feel so "compromised" that I hate having them done to me. Overall I think they are an excellent "Hidden" technique in that I have met VERY few in any art so far who knew them, how to do them well, or how to counter them. They appear to be a fading waza with little accurate understanding of how to set them up and the nature of how to pull them off. Hell I am being politically correct here. I have not met ANYONE who knew the above. Of course they exist- I just haven't met anyone yet. In general they are a nice suprise to most artists who do the open, rounded off, sutemi typically seen here in most arts.
I did find the Sutemi of the Yoseikan I have seen a bit unusual from others I have seen- that being Takenouchi and Sho-Sho. Sho SHo has some interesting neck-crank set ups also. They have a horizontal turning sutemi that resembles Takenouchi as well.

cheers
and happy new year
Dan Harden

[Dan Harden]

I only wanted to add that Kuzushi is discussed much on these threads. But the art of unbalancing someone is the heart-of-the-arts. To be able to do it at the onset of contact is the quintissential technique. One that many gloss over in pursuit of "technique." When T-H-E technique they should be concentrating on is how to create Kuzushi.
In my view it separates the artists/fighters from the possiers in every art....everywhere. It is the decades long research.


cheers
Dan

[Dan Harden]

Gokushin ryu jiujitsu?
Did some reading on Mochizuki Sensei. He studied it in his youth

Dan

[MarkF]

I really enjoy reading the story of Takeda beating the overly ego-stuffed judoka because many simply say that "Takeda beat up a bunch of judoka" without relating it properly. I would never deny it, just as I wouldn't deny that Kano's uke and first 10-dan Yoshiaki Yamashita had a bit too much fun in "defending" himself and was not allowed access to the Kodokan for a while, and was left to stew in jail a bit, as well.

Sutemi-waza were/are a favorite set of mine. I agree that they are "rounded off (actually it does look like that as the head is purposely tucked so as not to injure)." If they are not being taught as much, or are not being learned/studied much it is the fault of those who put the international rule-laden tournaments too highly in importance. Sutemi actually were great when I wrestled in college, and while some did not reach the desired effect, many limped off the mats rubbing and trying to bend the knee. That was the result, it wasn't intentional, but after being drilled so heavily as to when, how, and where and having the room to practice them, it is like gripping a judogi, if you have only done judo with that method, it feels very different from the non-grip way of nage waza and especially katame-waza (standing as well). It is also very difficult when a conditioned reflex is involved, I just couldn't help it at first. It was just, right there, waiting...

However, in the comment about losing a match by simply going for a sutemi waza is probably not the entire story. An attack or counter-attack must be genuine and recognized. All scoring nage-waza, counter or recounter, must have validity as every scoring move is noted. If tori became uke by entering for a throw while being countered, it is a judgment call, but, as in waza-ari (a technique has happened) or ippon one must hit the mat on the back with force. This doesn't mean an error was not made, they happen, often enough that it is obvious that if the rules committees and mat officials (shinban) must meet more than once a year to learn the newer rules, there are just too many.

It certainly happens, though, as with the rule of 1997 in which the blue judogi was passed, it lowered shinban error as much as thirty per cent. If it was a local official or teacher, then mistakes happen all too often, but it isn't the fault of the choice of weapons, and there is more than enough room to protest a call. You will probably lose the protest but you know what happened and that usually is enough.

Take a look at the video of the Japanese Vs. French heavyweight gold medal match in the Sydney games of 2000. If you can tell whether blue (Japanese) or white (French) was the one who scored, you deserve the gold medal. The discussion is whether white has scored yuko or waza-ari or if blue scored Ippon. The (Japanese) shinban originally called waza-ari for white, then was over-ruled by a line judge (French) who called Ipppon for Blue. The decision stood because the officials had left the mat area, and the final thought was that neither one had control of the other to call it either way, that it shouldn't have been any call.

Like anything, it is in the eye of the beholder, but get ready to spend an afternoon on start and stop and slo-mo. It was white's attempt at uchi-mata while blue seemed to "slip" to his own (uchi mata sukashi) counter. Beautiful technique, really bad judging (even if I can't see it or you can't, it doesn't mean that a call shouldn't have been made...or should have).

You may still find it on http://judoinfo.com . Go to the video section. I've watched that match over and over and over and I can't tell, and I'm a state certified shinban. The one thing I found was the the Japanese player rose off the mat much more quickly than did white, but was that enough to change the score?


Sorry for the rant...again.


Mark

[MarkF]

Mr. Ware,
Is the following the link to your aikido club?

http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:wwEzTJcr8NQC:www.bab.org.uk/club_directory


I was wondering because your name, A. Ware, is not listed as the contact name for the club, a Mr. Bent is.

I just wanted to remind people of the name rule.


Mark

[silent_mind]

Hi Mark.
Which name rule are you referring to?
The link you mentioned is the link for the contact name of the club I am currently a member of. Mr Bent is the instructor at the club, and is also the contact name. I am a representitive for the Club, between the students and the instrucotrs. The title used to be 'Aikido Captain', but as we do not have competition in our society, I thought the term 'Captain' was incorrect as this would suggest I am better then the other members, which is definately not true.I have chosen president, because this is a title the students union will except, and will be changed to. I do not hold a dan grade, and neither am I any kind of instructor so having me on the contact list at that link would not be suitable.

We will be having a new message board at the Students Union website, which I will be one of the authors of.

If I have still breached a rule please inform me so I can ammend it.

Thanx

Andrew Ware
Aikido President of the University of Wales College of Medicine Cardiff Club.

P.S. Does anyone have a suggestion for the name I can use instead of Captain?

[Phil Farmer]

First, Andrew the idea of president of the club or dojo sounds effective. Who is the senior student (sempai). It sounds like you are performing the function that most traditional dojo place on the senior student. I wouldn't worry too much about a formal title, president works and so does sempai and, to be honest, so does liaison and a whole bunch of other words. Just keep being a humble leader and I am sure your fellow students and instructors will appreciate it.

The story of the gokushin ryu jiujitsu for Mochizuki Sensei is related by him in this way. He studied the style and was given a license to teach it and asked, by the elderly gentleman who was teaching him to marry that gentleman's daughter in order to keep the style alive and in the family. He declined the offer and to his knowledge, he is the last living person who is licensed to teach it. Like most everything Sensei studied, it is part of what Yoseikan does but that is the story that was related directly to my teacher while on a trip to the Hombu in Shizuoka several years ago.

Phil Farmer

[Ron Tisdale]

The story is also covered in the interview in Aikido Masters, by Stanley Pranin.

RT

[Dan Harden]

Actually Ron he alludes to the same request from Ueshiba AND from TSKSR as well. Now that has got to be a story eh?
I know he gave Kondo sh!t about his demonstratining sword at the 50th celebration of Takedas death (the one on film). It ticked him off and he said Kondo didn't know sword and had agreed to no sword demonstrating before hand. He said this in front more than a few people. I got this from a high ranked eye witness. Then Mochizuki Sensei had his guys go get their swords and HIS school did a demonstration.
So which guy offerd him the TSKSR Shihan? Must have been the Soke?
Things that make you go hmmmmm......
Never heard anything about this anywhere else but in that interview. Has anyone else?

Dan

[Phil Farmer]

I am not sure if TSKSR refers to Katori Shinto Ryu or not but if it does, I have not heard of the request to marry and take over, but it would not be surprising. The story of Ueshiba asking him to marry his daughter and take over in their line has been often repeated and is not without precedent. In Pranins book, the great kendo master actually did that very thing, married the daughter, then later divorced. Mochizuki Sensei is unlike most Japanese. In addition to his criticism of sword, he did the same thing to Daito Ryu at their 1992 Friendship demonstration. I have that video and he takes all of Daito Ryu to task for being soft on their attacks and techniques. He was asked, several times, to come to some of the daito ryu and teach proper technique. The Daito ryu story is confirmed by one of their practitioners in Japan who was at the demonstration. He said it upset a lot of practitioners. Could explain why the Yoseikan part of the demonstration was so short.

Anyway, Minoru Mochizuki is an atypical Japanese. He was known to argue technique with Kano and Ueshiba. By the same token, he was the most faithful to Ueshiba throughout his life, giving him money, food and ultimate respect. He even met Takeda once, which actually frightened him a bit. That story is also in Pranin's book. Sensei is still alive and lives with his son in France. He will be 96 on his next birthday. Now, his health is failing and he has not been well for about the last year, but, to give an idea of the man, two years ago, in France, he walked out on the mat and demonstrated technique. I am hoping I can still feed myself when I am 94, and he is doing throws. Maybe there is something to this martial arts way of life.

Phil Farmer

[silent_mind]

Hi! Just replying to Phil's previous question.

"Who is the senior student (sempai). It sounds like you are performing the function that most traditional dojo place on the senior student". Phil Farmer

I am the senior student from the university - meaning that I have trained there longer then any other students from the university. There is sensei and his student from another club who is a dan grade. What does sempai translate as?

To everyone - where does your art come into your life? I have always been interested in martial arts, but never really thought of the spiritual side of it until about 2 yrs ago. i have started to read the Hagakure, and found it quite interesting.

Thanx

Andy Ware

[MarkF]

Hi, Andrew,
To be honest, your name as written A.Ware, together with the University name and club made me interested and not suspicious, though no one will believe that, probably.

I did a search on google, found a listing for your club, and thought I would find your name and a history, etc. I was wrong.

A. Ware is perfectly fine, but to be honest, I did wonder.

I was curious, and my cat probably lays dying at this very moment.

it IS unusual to "have the key" to the dojo after a short period of time. I started judo at twelve and had the key when I was fifteen, and taught a class weekly, and opened the doors on Saturdays for randori only workouts.

To me senpai can mean lots of things. Asst. teacher, senior student, part of the senpai-kohai relationship which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with budo, or it simply could mean a guest to the dojo who is treated as the senior as s/he is a special guest. I've heard it used in many ways. It can also simply mean "most trusted student/servant" which doesn't always mean the most senior. It obviously does carry an amount of trust and responsability with it, though, in all of the above.


Mark

[Phil Farmer]

Hi Andy, it sounds like you are indeed Sempai in most every way that is used. My senior student is not the highest ranked but the most responsible in my dojo. It is a label, but one that your Chief instructor should formalize to make sure that you can function effectively.

The spiritual side of martial arts. When did it come into practice? Let me see, for me I think it started the first night. My instructor is the U.S. Technical Director and he made it clear that our martial art has applications on and off of the mat. From the first night, I try to instill in my students the same idea, that what we do on the mat applies everywhere in life. For our kids class, I often talk to them about doing tai sabaki (body shifting) on the mat to avoid a punch, then about doing tai sabaki at home or school. In essence, shifting themselves away from trouble. You can indeed become a good technician of martial arts without letting it be internalized but people who do martial arts for a life time tend to see physical, mental, emotional as all one thing. I think these martial artists have few if any confrontations. Like Mushashi, others just seem to know better and, the internal awareness means not letting yourself get into those situations that are unhealthy or dangerous. For me, the spiritual aspects are not separate but part of technique.

Hope this is helful.

Phil Farmer

[the Khazar Kid]

I actually like the sound of "Captain" better than "President" as a title. Maybe because I am in the United States, President suggests to me a political office. As a freedom-loving American, I don't have much inherent respect for any political office in and of itself.

Whereas Captain, to me, sounds much more Budo-like and Bushido-like, suggesting the heroic martial chivalrous Great Captains of Olden Times like Captain Caizo, Captain Sir Richard F. Burton, Captain Fairbairn, etc.

This is just my own weird opinions, if you'd rather be a President more power to you brother.

Jesse Peters

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Phil Farmer


As to sutemi from early Yoseikan. It is still there. The traditional practice of Yoseikan has all of the sutemi throws still intact and it is considered our trademark. The sutemi originate from the judo throws and from a now dead jiujutsu style call Gokushin ryu jiujitsu. Translated (poorly, I know) it roughly refers to a "sphere" so what you see in our sutemi is wrapping the uke up in a "ball" as we throw. The sutemi are no longer seen in judo because no one knows how to score them as referees. I have a student, who also competes in college judo tournaments, and he used a simple sutemi to throw his opponent and the opponent was given the point when my student touched the ground. Few competition judoka understand kazushi well enough to attempt sutemi. Sutemi are actually very effective alternatives in some very difficult situations. They have been criticized for the thrower going to the ground.


I'm not sure I can agree with this - I've used sutemi in competition; scored a couple ippon s via sutemi last time I competed (even got complimented by the ref on one). So I've poked around and found some pictures, so I can be sure we're visualizing the same thing.

First, I'm assuming these pictures of sutemi and Yoseikan (one of the photos on the index page specifically mentions Yoseikan).

http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/photos/photo.php?album=aikiexpo1&id=expo53
This one looks a lot like a version of kata guruma that used to be used in competition (one of Jimmy Pedro's specialties, IIRC), but has recently been outlawed by the IJF. Interestingly enough, I suspect Jimmy developed his version from his experience wrestling - some folk-stylists do a fireman's carry that would look very similar to the photo.

This one looks a little like yoko-otoshi, but I can't tell for sure from the picture - the leg position looks right but the hands are different.
http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/photos/photo.php?album=aikiexpo1&id=expo54

This one also looks like yoko-otoshi, except for the head position:
http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/photos/photo.php?album=aikiexpo1&id=expo55
But then, it also looks a lot like the picture on page 83 of Jimmy Pedro's book "Judo Techniques and Tactics".

http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/photos/photo.php?album=aikiexpo1&id=expo60
This one could be either yoko-otoshi or uki-waza, depending on the angle - I'd pick uki-waza.

I think this one may have been what my ippon throws last tournament looked like:
http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/photos/photo.php?album=aikiexpo1&id=expo61


These look like ude-gaeshi, sometimes classified as yoko-wakare:
http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/photos/photo.php?album=aikiexpo1&id=expo64
http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/photos/photo.php?album=aikiexpo1&id=expo65

Now consider some competition photos from the IJF website:
http://www.ijf.org/medias/images/0203.jpg
http://www.ijf.org/medias/images/66geo.jpg
http://www.ijf.org/medias/images/70cubgold.jpg
http://www.ijf.org/medias/images/70KORbronze.jpg
http://www.ijf.org/medias/images/72BLRbronze.jpg (the above is mislabelled, that's Jimmy Pedro getting planted).
http://www.ijf.org/medias/images/66BrROM0619.jpg
http://www.ijf.org/medias/images/57Kifayat-Chouch.jpg
http://www.ijf.org/medias/images/66Mirzaliev-Mires.jpg
http://www.ijf.org/medias/images/73pedro_usa.jpg

I think sutemi waza aren't commonly used in competition, not because competitors don't understand kuzushi, but because competitors don't get many openings. I got one ippon from sutemi recently because my opponent wasn't all that ready for competition, and the other because my opponent gave me a big, fat juicy opening (he kept trying to pull me forward; after two or three pulls I just went with it).

That, and you've got to be careful that it doesn't look like you're being thrown. I was working with a student on yoko-wakare as a counter. Good for randori, not so good for shiai. But a fun throw, none-the-less.

On the other hand, I didn't mind when opponents tried sutemi on me; having wrestled some, I just went to the ground with them.



What never quite gets mentioned is that it takes a lot of ukemi practice to be able to fall for these throws and an unsuspecting opponent can and would be severely injured in the fall.

I think that's the purpose of the techniques in Koshiki-no-kata (i.e. the Kito ryu waza in Kodokan form), many of which are sutemi.

What's frustrating is that I seem to remember a comment about aikido and sutemi, and that sutemi was considered a "trick" not worthy of aikido (kind of like the reason why aikido lacks ashi-waza - the feet are not dignified). Can't find it; not sure it's true.

[Phil Farmer]

Sorry, Peter, for not responding sooner. The sutemi you have posted from the Aiki Expo are indeed Yoseikan. The group are the Yoseikan International folks and the gentleman in the hakama watching is Patrick Auge Sensei, 7th Dan. His folks did an excellent job in demonstrating what I am almost positive is our technique called kesa kake or O motare komi. As you rightly noticed, these are not much different than your traditional judo throws and, in many cases the only difference is that they are done from punches and kicks instead of grappling attacks. This is the reason for modification, the attack is much more active than a grasping attack.

I also agree that sutemi are very effective but need the proper opening. I have seen lower level tournaments where a sutemi would simply confuse the judges. I believe at a high level tournament, the judges are better qualified to see the throw. The judo throws I clicked on, and I didn't click on all I am sorry to say, looked like kata garuma. Yoseikan does that as a technique from one knee, what is often called a "self defense" form in judo texts. Thanks for the research and work I can tell that you did.

Phil Farmer

[Ron Tisdale]

Well, I've never heard that ashi barai (foot sweep) isn't dignified...but I do get scolled when I use it :) I don't think its a standard part of yoshinkan or most other "styles" of aikido. I've heard the "not dignified" comment in regards to kicking in general...that said, I've even been taught a kick specifically for aikido by a 7th dan.

As far as sutemi waza, I've been taught those by ex-ki society instructors, yoshinkan instructors, yada yada yada. I like em, and use em when I can. I especially like them as kaeshi waza, off of nikajo, and stuff like that. Mostly they are meant to project uke over shite, so that shite doesn't get tied up on the ground. I usually try to sneak in a little practise using them as an entry into ground work...just for something a little different. :)

Ron (its all good) Tisdale

ps I thought the yoseikan stuff at the aiki expo was phenomenal!
RT