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jodirren
20th December 2002, 21:06
For about two years, I have been practicing a martial art founded by Duke Moore in the 1950s called Zen Budokai Aiki Jujitsu. I recently have become very interested in its roots. In particular, I am interested in understanding why Duke Moore decided to call it "aiki juijtsu" instead of just "jujitsu". It seems that Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, Kodokan Judo, and several forms of karate were his largest influences, but he also studied Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu under Richard Kim. So it would, on the surface, appear that his primary influence is Daito Ryu, given that he named his art after it. However, though I haven't studied any other martial arts, it doesn't seem as if we have too much Daito Ryu influence in our system. But I really don't have enough (any!) experience outside this one art to know for sure. So that leads me here to seek others who might be able to knowledgeably comment on this issue of why Duke named his art as he did ....

Here is a *brief* overview of my understanding of aiki jujitsu. I know it is a complicated subject, but for the sake of my discussion, I'm just trying to capture the gist. Please don't flame me just because I've simplified it (unless I've simplified it wrong). So ...

It seems that aiki jujitsu (or aikijujitsu, or aikijujutsu, however you want to use the word breaks and/or spell it) is simply the martial art of the clan that came out of the merging of the Takeda and Aizu clans. Though the name "aiki jujitsu" wasn't used until the early 20th century, the point is that this art, whatever you want to call it (oshikiuchi, aiki in ho yo, aikijujitsu, etc), is what was practiced by this clan and which has been passed on to the modern-day Daito Ryu. It is just one style of many other forms of the generic art of jujitsu.

Thus, aikijujitsu should be synonymous with Daito Ryu. If that is true (is it? Are there other jujitsu sytles *not* descended out of Daito Ryu that call their art "aikijujitsu"?), then Duke must have been aware of this and when he named his style "aiki jujitsu". He must have realized the implications of this and felt that his style was strongly influence by Daito Ryu, enough so to deserve the name "aiki jujitsu". So my question is this: does Zen Budokai have a strong Daito Ryu influence, enough to warrant naming it "aiki jujitsu"? Or, is the Daito Ryu influence small enough that Duke's art should really be called just "jujitsu"?

Of course, the only people that can really help me with this are those who have studied Zen Budokai, or perhaps judo or karate under Duke Moore. If anybody knows anything about Zen Budokai and can comment, I would grealty appreciate it. And if my overview of aikijujitsu history is wrong, I would greatly appreciate any corrections.

I look forward to the always enlightening responses from the people on this forum. Much thanks in advance.

jd

Nathan Scott
20th December 2002, 21:29
Hello,

I've never heard of this art, but if Richard Kim is the only Daito ryu connection, then I'd say the connection is little to none. Kim is a Korean style teacher.

As far as whether someone can use the name "aikijujutsu" or not, it is as open a classification as "judo" or "karate". It might seem odd to call your art "something ryu judo" if what you teach is not judo, and not directly derived from Kodokan Judo, but it does not mean that you couldn't use the term.

I strongly suspect that what your school teaches is not what any of us on this forum would classify as "aikijujutsu", but there is no law against your teacher using it - though he might meet with heavy criticism by others in "aikijujutsu" arts. Basically, that is the risk you take when you use a name because it is the popular art.

But if you like what you are learning, have fun. It depends on what part of the art you consider to be important. ALso, keep reading through this forum to get a better idea of what most people consider to be aikijujutsu as well and draw your own conclusions.

For the rest of us, just have a look at their web page. I think all your questions will be answered there! ;)

http://www.zenbudokai.com

Regards,

jodirren
20th December 2002, 21:55
Thanks Nathan--I should have given a website myself. So, a better website is,

Stanford Jujitsu Club (http://jujitsu.stanford.edu)

the club with which I train. Well, this website is better in the sense that it has more information, particularly lists of our techniques and even some videos. The link Nathan provided is to the San Francisco dojo of our style.

Though I know it's hard to say from such a superficial overview of a martial art, I would greatly appreciate it if people could take a look at these sites and give me their comments with regards to my original post on this thread.

Also, Duke did some training with Kiyose Nakae (sp??) in New York City in the 1940s who apparently was a jujitsu master. So he could have gotten some training in Daito Ryu from him, though I have been unable to find any information on Nakae outside of Zen Budokai. He did publish a book, "Jujitsu Complete", which is available on amazon.com, so he can't be that obscure. Does anybody know anything about Nakae, like what style of jujitsu he practiced? That would also help me understand the roots of Duke's Zen Budokai.

Back to Zen Budokai, it's true that Richard Kim was a korean stylist and is most well-known for shorinji-ryu karate, but my understanding was that he was a fairly respected Daito Ryu practicioner. But perhaps I'm wrong.

Thanks again.

jd

Ellis Amdur
20th December 2002, 22:36
Nathan -

it's my understanding that Mr. Kim was primarily a japanese karate practitioner. in addition, he asserted that he studied with Yoshida Kotaro (long before anyone had heard of him in the West), and he surely had some kind of relationship with him (perhaps simultaneous to that of Mas Oyama). I have no idea what he learned, or asserted he learned, from yoshida.

Best

Ellis Amdur

Chris Li
20th December 2002, 23:10
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I've never heard of this art, but if Richard Kim is the only Daito ryu connection, then I'd say the connection is little to none. Kim is a Korean style teacher.

Aikido Journal lists him here (http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/encyclopedia.asp?entryID=828) as having trained in Daito-ryu under Yoshida Kotaro. Anybody know more about this?

Best,

Chris

Ellis Amdur
20th December 2002, 23:34
I read the Aikido Journal notation, and several things puzzled me. It states, "In 1937, pursues university studies in China, and learns tai chi, pa kua and Shorinji-ryu kempo under Ken'ichi Sawai. Relocates to Japan in 1939 where he continues to study under Sawai and also practices karate." Sawai Ken'ichi was a student of I-ch'uan (or Ta chen ch'uan) which he called Taikiken, in Japanese. The name of his very famous teacher has gone out of my mind, but he was very well known for I'chuan, which focused on spontaneous, hair-trigger action and reaction. It was a distilled version of Hsing-i. This instructor was very well known for deriding the whole concept of chi, claiming that there was no vital energy to circulate at will; instead, he focused on using the will to organize the muscles and nervous system, particularly through imagery. They did a lot of "post standing." This is someone who would not be teaching t'ai chi or pa-kau, and in fact, Sawai used to go visit Wang Shu Chin, the famous (huge) Hsingi pakua teacher, who also studied I-ch'uan along with Sawai, and Sawai would claim that Wang was wasting his time with the older forms, and should just focus on I'-ch'uan.

Sorry for the longwindedness, but if Kim claimed to have studied what is noted in the AJ article, it calls into question his account of other training (including Yoshida). If a student or admirer erroneously provided the information, they have not done their teacher a service, because Sawai was so well known as teaching something in opposition to the arts noted here.

With respect

Ellis Amdur

Nathan Scott
20th December 2002, 23:57
Hello Ellis and Chris,

I should have qualified my comment better, rather than just leaving it hang.

I've read the entry on Kim as well, but have yet to see or hear much of anything authoratative about direct Daito ryu influence on Korean arts, outside of a page in Sokaku's emeiroku indicating a few Korean names that nobody recognizes that participated in 1-3 seminars.

Given the tendency for Korean stylists (generally) to change and embellish the history of their arts, I am unusually skeptical about their claims. I'd like to see any of this substantiated by at least credible secondary sources.

Thanks for offering your comments though. If everyone believes that Richard Kim, Choi or others really did have significant formal training in DR, I suppose it should be discussed. Personally though I am really getting turned off on such discussions as there has been very little new material introduced into the debate for some time now, and as a result, the discussions turn into 5 pages of heated bickering that is never resolved.

Ellis, I know you've noted some similarities between Hapkido and Daito ryu. The points you made were insightful, but - no offense - not enough to convince me of a formal relationship. I'm always open to new evidence though.

Mas Oyama is known to have also studied with Kim's teachers Kotaro Yoshida and Gogen Yamaguchi, so if Kim studied with Oyama, he could have been introduced to them both through that connection. Oyama trained with Yoshida from 1943 to 1945, and is said to have been influenced by the severity of training at the Daitokan and integrated aspects of the jujutsu into the Kyokushin self-defense techniques.

Regards,

Chris Li
21st December 2002, 00:09
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I've read the entry on Kim as well, but have yet to see or hear much of anything authoratative about direct Daito ryu influence on Korean arts, outside of a page in Sokaku's emeiroku indicating a few Korean names that nobody recognizes that participated in 1-3 seminars.

Is he really a Korean stylist? The stuff I saw on the web has him as being born in Hawaii and then training in China and Japan, but nothing about Korea or Korean styles (outside of his name, I suppose...).

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
21st December 2002, 00:18
No, actually, that was poorly worded. It takes a while to get my memory banks re-routed properly to this issue, and have to re-familiarize myself with the people again.

Thanks for pointing that out. I don't know why he is included in the Aikido Encyclopedia, and why in that entry it does not bother to state what it is he was actually teaching. Oh well.

Ellis Amdur
21st December 2002, 01:42
Nathan-

I believe there is a relationship between Daito-ryu and hapkido - but the nature of that relationship is none too clear, and very likely not very deep. I definitely do not believe he was a houseboy, inner disciple of Takeda Sokaku.

For example, if Mr. Choi studied a year or two of Daito-ryu, somewhere, from someone, even someone not exceptionally advanced, and also saw the embu stuff which he later imitated or passed on (Daito-ryu has not been reticent, I believe, in demonstrating the magic looking stuff), this would be more than enough material to transfer to the hapkido he had a part in developing. Others could easily begin to develop things in their own directions.

Best

Ellis Amdur

Cady Goldfield
21st December 2002, 02:05
FWIW,
Some years ago I had the opportunity to attend a seminar by one of Choi's direct students who had high standing in the system.

The grappling aspects of hapkido he presented could be appropriately compared to 20th-century aikido. The "hardest" things were something like chin-na or 20th-century jujutsu. However, there was no evidence of anything I would now recognize as being stylistically related to Daito-ryu. And, there definitely was no indication of anything remotely resembling Daito-ryu aiki (although, of course, I would not expect anyone with that capability to demonstrate it at a seminar that people outside the system were attending).

Nathan Scott
21st December 2002, 06:27
Ellis,

I do agree with the possibility of your last scenario. It is quite possible that people like Kim or Choi were exposed, either directly or indirectly (formal training or observing enbu), to Daito ryu or at least early Aikido. It would be interesting to see old film footage of either of them and see what it was they were doing at the time. I wonder if anyone has such footage, and would be willing to let some of us view it?

Regards,

Kendoguy9
21st December 2002, 08:10
Hello all,

This is coming from memory so don't quote me on it. A year or two back I was in a local Barnes and Nobles and saw one of Kim's books. In it there was a picture of Kim and Yoshida (this I remember clearly). I do not know if this was pre or post stroke for Yoshida. Anyway (this is where it gets hazy) I think it said that Kim learned bojutsu from Yoshida. It made mention of Yoshida's amazing ability with the tessen even saying he killed a bear with one once while in the woods (other stories I heard is that it was a small cub so I don't know!?). Kondo sensei also recalls Yoshida's skill with tessen. If my memory is good, then all Kim mentioned was bojutsu. I am sure he would have mentioned more if he had done more, after all he was trying to lay claims to his skill and all he learned. And because I practice Daito-ryu I'm sure I would have bought the book if it mentioned anything about Daito-ryu. I would take any of Kim's claims to Daito-ryu with a grain or two of salt.

Cady Goldfield
21st December 2002, 14:08
http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=000033

Also on Stanley Pranin's site, there was a recent discussion* on Jang In Mok, the one Korean exponent of Daito-ryu who had obtained a certificate in the art (acknowledged as genuine by Kondo Katsuyaki -- Mr. Pranin sent him a copy of the certificate to examine). Jang is quoted as having said that he did not know Choi and had never met him, although he had heard Choi's name mentioned once.

* http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=22&t=000032

kusanku
23rd December 2002, 04:56
For the record: Richard Kim taughht a style of Karate called Shorinjiryu which had nothing Korean about it,in fact, it was said to be Okinawan Shorin ryu srtyle, but to me, who trained with some of Kim Sensei's yudansha in 1974-5, resembled Shotokan somewhat more than the Shorin ryu which I also practiced.Still, it definitely had some elements of that style in it.

As to what Kim Sensei taught of Daito Ryu, or knew of it, I recall reading an articles where he stated he did have some certificates in that art, if I am not mitaken. Since Kim, along with Yamaguchi and Oyama, once for some time all taught at the same dojo, and since Yoshida Kotaro apparently did teach Oyama Sensei for some time, this may well be so.

Ted Truscott, the Modrerator of the Karate Forum, was I believe a direct student of Kim Sensei, he would perhaps be in a beter position to supply such information, but having traiend for a bit with the shorinji ryu people in Monterey California, a year and a half being the aforementioned bit, I thought I would clarify the Korean thing up a bit.It wasn't Korean, whatever else, Japanese or Okinawan, that it was.

As far as Kim's other training, my understanding was that he studied Pa Kua from some old man in China, not from Sawa'i.This too, from articles.

One can in one's life study from many people, some not long, others quite long, and some only for a short time but learn deep lessons.If we can, Kim could also.I hear that Yoshida Kotaro was a great teahcer by the way.Of numerous arts.

Nathan Scott
23rd December 2002, 21:11
I don't know anything about these teachers all using the same dojo, but in the Kyokushin book, it appears that Oyama had worked with Yoshida while Yoshida was in Hokkaido (Northern Japan) between 1943-1945. It also states that Oyama trained at the Daitokan in Hokkaido (Abashiri) under Takeda Tokimune during that time - perhaps under both of them at the dojo (Yoshida had taught Tokimune some amount of the art).

The book says that Yoshida moved to Tokyo and opened a Daito ryu dojo just after the war, and that Oyama seems to have had some contact with him at that time based on an entry in Yoshida's enrollment book. In any event, it sounds like most of Oyama's exposure to Daito ryu was while he was in Hokkaido.

How does this fit in to Richard Kim's bio?

kusanku
24th December 2002, 04:30
From what I know, Kim, Oyama and yamaguchi opened a dojo together after the war, maybe in the Fifites, where they all taught.Styles weren't that important then, maybe it was about survival.

It would have been at this time perhaps that any instruction directly may have occurred for Kim, is my understanding.

That's all I know, ask Ted about it, he may have more on it than I do.

In the Book Zen Combat by Jay Gluck, a quirky tome, he talks about the three teaching together at a school in Tokyo.

Wouldn't Yoshida have been around about then?