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MarkF
27th August 2000, 09:31
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/throw.htm

Can you do or have you ever done this throw, and do you know what it is called?

Mark

BTW: This was sent to me by email, and it is from either the old Encino Judo Clb site, or the original Judo Information Site, now at: http://judoinfo.com . Encino judo may be accessed through this address or at: http://www.exit-25.com/menu.shtml

Brian Griffin
27th August 2000, 10:29
(1) Yes, I can & have, but not in randori, much less shiai.

(2) Seoi-otoshi

MarkF
27th August 2000, 11:37
Seoi-otoshi? Really. That was one of my "signature throws" in shiai but it wasn't this. I will say it certainly is a drop, though. That was my first guess, instincively, but I will leave it to discussion.

[Edited by MarkF on 08-27-2000 at 05:40 AM]

MarkF
27th August 2000, 11:54
http://www.exit-25.com/images/nauta/seoitosh.gif

This is a drawing of seoi otoshi. This is a little closer to what I had in mind, but still pretty far off.
Copyright: Bill Nauta: Judo Information Site at http://judoinfo.com

[Edited by MarkF on 08-28-2000 at 04:31 AM]

Brian Griffin
27th August 2000, 12:01
Care to wager? ;)

[Edited by Brian Griffin on 08-27-2000 at 06:46 AM]

BrianV
27th August 2000, 14:04
Could be he is the preperatory stages of the throw, using a hip torque for the off-balancing.

Kinda a different execution, but.....

William F. Kincaid
27th August 2000, 18:59
Well I agree with Mark it appears to be a Otoshi type throw
but a Seoi otoshi not really. Look at the position of the grips the right hand grip does in fact look as if it is preparing for a otoshi type throw, but the left grip perplexes me, it is set in a pulling grip.


As it being a pure seoi otoshi ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh not to me .:smash: personally i don't care how good I am, I still am not confrontable throwing someone over my knee when it is in the up position.:smash: I love seoi otoshi I teach it to my female judokas along with seoi nage and it is one of the best throwing escapes from a hadaka jime. But alas I teach it more like the way Mark showed.

Now it just came to mind there is a Video Tape of Keith Schwartz call Judo Self defense throws and armlocks. He uses a right handed grip similar to this pic.....but he has the uki's arm in a more of a Garami position and throwing uki over that arm.
well if any one come up with a vid or seq.pics let me know I love figuring out new and interesting throws.

Osoto2000
27th August 2000, 20:05
Hi Mark,
This is definatley a variation of Seoi-Otoshi, I still teach this variation now.
It is described and illustrated in my copy of The Manual of Judo (self defence and super fitness- the authentic guide to Judo) By E J Harrison, published by W Foulsham & Co London in 1952. There is no other variation of Seoi-Otoshi in this book, so I can only assume that he believed this was the original Seoi-Otoshi? You still finish by throwing over your back with a downward twist to your left and not over your knee as william seems to think. (of course as you twist your leg straightens and turns, which might make you feel happier william)
It works best against someone much shorter than yourself and the belt grab comes as quite a shock. I also teach Obi-Otoshi,niether of these throws are now commomnly used and can have quite a novolty value in competition, as when they feel a yank on their belt they freeze as they are not sure whats coming next.
ok so thats my contribution to the debate.
Any other opinions;)

TommyK
28th August 2000, 00:21
Greetings,

I'm by no means a ranked Judo player, but I have seen this throw and I agree with Ray, its over the back as you turn left.

Regards,
TommyK

Jeff Cook
28th August 2000, 00:28
O.K., Mark, here's my WAG:

Obi Seoi-otoshi!?;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Robert Reinberger
28th August 2000, 01:25
Originally posted by Osoto2000

... It is described and illustrated in my copy of The Manual of Judo (self defence and super fitness- the authentic guide to Judo) By E J Harrison, published by W Foulsham & Co London in 1952. There is no other variation of Seoi-Otoshi in this book, so I can only assume that he believed this was the original Seoi-Otoshi?...

While what is called Seoi otoshi today may be something different, a superficial search through my Judo books brought the same result: this throw is (was) called Seoi otoshi.

In addition to the book already mentioned by Mr. Brown, there is also Kodokan Judo by Aida Hikoichi, translated into English and edited also by E.J. Harrison. Both books contain (different) drawings depicting exactly the position shown in the photo.

Interestingly, I also found a photo with a different position in an older book from Austria, but while the text says one should kneel down with the left knee, the picture shows Tori on his right knee, and the rest of the text as well as the drawn diagram of the steps would make it impossible to kneel down with the left leg. In this book it is also mentioned, that the back of the hand gripping the belt should face upwards.

I also checked with the Kawaishi book, as the techniques of this teacher seem to have influenced what was taught in Austria a lot, but that doesn't apply to this case. Kawaishi's Seoi otoshi is shown with the usual Kata seoi nage grip, and while he also kneels on his right knee, his right leg is outside the right leg of Uke, and that is also how I was taught this throw.

Best regards,

Robert

Brian Griffin
28th August 2000, 08:15
(sigh...) You guys are no fun! I was really hoping somebody would want to wager some rare Judo book that it wasn't seoi-otoshi. Mr. Brown & Herr Reinberger are just too good. I should have known better.

Well, I may as well contribute something...

The photo posted by Mr. Feigenbaum comes from Judo Kyohan by Yokoyama Sakujiro and Oshima Eisuke (originally published about 1909) where it appears as Figure 71. Tori is none other than Samura Kaichiro (later 10th dan), and Uke is identified as K. Yasukuni. The description below begins on page 146 of the English translation, titled Judo, published in 1915:

Seoiotoshi ("Pulling Down over Shoulder").-It is true that there are few cases that this trick can be put into practice, but as it exists as a trick, a brief explanation about it will be given here. When your opponent happens to be a short man and he is in a "natural posture," it may be applied with advantage. Take some part near the right front corner of his belt with your left hand, while you take hold of the middle part of his right sleeve with your right hand, as represented in Fig. 71. Turn your body to the left, drawing him close to you with your left hand, and again turn your back in his front, projecting your right elbow on his right side. At the same moment, thrust your right shoulder under his right arm, bending your right knee, and putting the left one on the mat. Pull him down in front of you over your right shoulder with your right hand, keeping your hold on his belt, and then he will be thrown on his back in front of you just as in the case of seoinagé.
This variation, and a couple of others, can also be found in Mifune's Canon of Judo pp. 209-210.

MarkF
28th August 2000, 10:19
HI, Guys,
Brian, please call me Mark. Also, I never did say it wasn't seoi otoshi, only that I used seoi otoshi often, and it wasn't like the picture, but you got the source right, so browny points anyway. I love pictures of throws which look like tori is going to suffer more than uke, and those, such as this would be cruel to make a student do repeatedly.

The way I do it in shiai (or used to decades ago), was a drop to one or both knees, assuming uke was somewhere near the natural stance. Also, by falling forward on both knees, you can mix it up and use the left arm and follow straight down or to your right, especially since the obi grip has been in dry dock for a long time (except when immediately going for a nage).

Also, doing it with the the forearm under uke's right, it really takes a big size difference to cinch it so I do Ippon seoi otoshi. The only time I ever show it anywhere close to this would be kata. But a shoulder drop it is, Brian. Good call!

But in all honesty, the way I do it it does look more like the drawing although it isn't a real good example. Sometimes, when uke is dropping his center, the old adage comes into effect: "Use your opponents strengths and weaknesses." If he is dropping, you may be in a good position when you can't get seoi nage, or ippon seoi nage, drop to the knees and turn, bringing the arm with you. Also, as mentioned by someone (I think) this is a good escape from a rear naked strangle, and you don't really have to grip the arm, or just grip the arm under your chin, thrust out the leg and turn.

Robert R.'s description is the randori version, and also how I was first taught this throw.

If he does go over the back, then the shoulder it is seoi nage. This is a drop throw so the shoulder should not come into it. Even if you thrust your leg back, and call it seoiotoshi, it isn't. That is still seoinage.

Jeff's description probably fits over all, so for the new nage, he has to use it at least once in the dojo.:)

Ever-evolving. Hey, things change.

Yes, Brian, I thought it might get someone, but all of you are just too good.

Mark

Bob Steinkraus
28th August 2000, 18:19
I have heard the seoi-nage off one knee referred to as 'kintsisi-otoshi'. The spelling is probably as bad as the pronunciation, but I was told it translated as 'stone drop throw'.

Never say the belt grap as part of it.

Osoto2000
28th August 2000, 20:18
Originally posted by MarkF

If he does go over the back, then the shoulder it is seoi nage. This is a drop throw so the shoulder should not come into it. Even if you thrust your leg back, and call it seoiotoshi, it isn't. That is still seoinage.

Mark

Hi Mark,
the definition I have always worked with as to what makes Seoi-Otoshi, Seoi-Otoshi and Seoinage, Seoinage is;

Seoi-Otoshi, you pull down with no lift, just continual doward movement. Uki will still go over the back/shoulder, it doesn't matter.

Seoinage, You lift Uki and throw him over your back/shoulder,again it is imaterial, the defining movement is the lift.
So even if you first drop on to one or both knees if you then stand up again lifting Uki it still remain Seoinage as you have lifted not pulled to complete the throw.

A lot of Judoka I have met believe if you put the leg back then, it becomes Seoi-Otoshi, again this is not correct. The leg position is not the defining factor, what makes the difference is whether you lift at Kake.

The following is an extract from http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/seoiotoshi.html which I believe roughly agrees with me:D

Difference between Seoi-otoshi and Seoi-nage

These two techniques are alike, especially in the lifting position. However, the difference is in the throwing concept.
Seoi-nage : lift up the opponant and throw
Seoi-otoshi : pull down and throw (at this time, one knee or both knees must touch on the mat)

Although the knee or knees touch the mat at one time during the process of the throw, if at the actual execution of the throw, the knee or knees are not touching, the throw is considered to be Seoi-nage.


BTW can we please have a smiley with a smug look on his face, ta very much.

Brian Griffin
29th August 2000, 00:56
Originally posted by Bob Steinkraus
I have heard the seoi-nage off one knee referred to as 'kintsisi-otoshi'. The spelling is probably as bad as the pronunciation, but I was told it translated as 'stone drop throw'.

Never say the belt grap as part of it.

The "stone-drop" is ganseki otoshi.
It's similar, but can also be done without dropping the knee.
Start with your hands in gyakujujijime position, turn so your hands uncross, & throw with the double-lapel grip.
It can be done standing like seionage, dropping down like seoi-otoshi, or thrusting the hips through like koshiguruma.

MarkF
29th August 2000, 09:41
Ray, is this :smokin: what you had in mind? You s....:redhot:

Yes, very good description. What I should have said is that if you load uke, it is seoinage, if the direction is continuously in a downward motion, on one or both knees, it is the seoi otoshi. The drawing is exactly what seoi otoshi is not. That is just thrusting your leg back to lower your center.

Wow, ganseki otoshi. Guess who has a new throw to work on tomorrow night. Sometimes, aging causes some memory loss which is compounded by dementia, etc. I haven't done that since, well, at least twenty years. Thank you for tomorrow's lesson plan:)

And the dementia causes one NOT to look in an obvious place to see a description of it, too.

Tonya Easton
2nd September 2000, 02:48
Okay I warn in advance this reply is going to be a little strange. But I think it realtes to this topic.
What I have heard you describing sounds like what one of my confused patients did to me at work the other day. I am a nurse and this patient recently suffered a stroke causeing him to have some delusions related to medications. He also has a 30-40 year history in judo and jujitsu, (per his wife).
As I was placing his breating treatment on him, he reached up and with his arms crossed grabbed my lapel of my lab jacket and managed to flip me in mid air causing me to land 1/2 in the bed and 1/2 out on my back, facing up.
He was in a lying position in bed and I was standing at the bedside.
Since I was the one doing the flying and it was extremely quick... I didn't get a close look at his technique. It was really COOL!.

MarkF
2nd September 2000, 07:53
And people don't think judo is tough enough to "land you" in the hospital. Why, the idea.:nono:

Osoto2000
2nd September 2000, 17:33
Originally posted by Tonya Easton
he reached up and with his arms crossed grabbed my lapel of my lab jacket and managed to flip me in mid air causing me to land 1/2 in the bed and 1/2 out on my back, facing up.
He was in a lying position in bed and I was standing at the bedside.
Since I was the one doing the flying and it was extremely quick... I didn't get a close look at his technique. It was really COOL!.
Hi Tonya,
I new Judo was a very special and useful MA, but up until now I hadn,t thought of it as a method of getting someone into bed.
Thanks for the tip,this could do wonders for my love life.;)

Tonya Easton
2nd September 2000, 19:28
Uh Ohhhhhhhhhh what have I started???:)