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Gorget the Frog
22nd December 2002, 09:07
I'm considering the purchase of an Iaido (from swordstore.com). However, I have no experience in the art whatsoever as of present. I plan on perusing it when I get an opportunity; no teachers seem available in my area. For now the iaido would serve as part “toy” and part display piece.

Seeing as I sincerely believe that I will eventually take to using this iaido, should I purchase one? I intend to follow a “recommended” blade-length for my height, coupled with some testing, and allow swordstore to base the length of the tuska on my hand size.

However, I realize that individual schools have specific preferences towards these attributes. I’d rather not impair myself by making a poor purchase now.

(Please bear in mind that I’ll likely be doing Seitei Iai when I begin)

Chuck.Gordon
22nd December 2002, 11:49
I'd advise against buying the iaito before you find a dojo. If you want to play with a sword-like thing, spend your money on a bokuto (wooden sword) designed for beginning iaido students. Seidokai Supply at http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/ can provide one for far less money than you'd pay for an iaito.

Look here:

http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/

Chuck

Carlos Estrella
22nd December 2002, 13:38
Hi. I did exactly what you are considering, and only by sheer luck has it worked out to any extent. I actually WON an iaito from Tozando a few years ago and exchanged it for a cutting blade (Shinto Katana from Paul Chen) because I wanted to learn with a "real sword." The good news was that both of the world-class sword instructors I made acquainances with didn't mind me using it, and I had a "beater cutter" to learn with. The BAD news was that now that I am beginning to learn what a decent sword is, I realize that I should've used the iaito for form (and beauty - it really did look good - Tozando's Kotetsu model KA-82).

I've handled the Nosyuiaido "cutting iaitos" and thay are fine, and both Bob Elder's store (ecmas.com) and Bugei.com have fine blades, and there are many other outlets you can find through e-budo. Your BEST CHOICE for knowledge however (other than me <g>) is to ask your teacher, or if you don't have one, use this forum (e-budo) to find one near you.

Regards,

Carlos

Gorget the Frog
22nd December 2002, 17:14
Originally posted by Chuck.Gordon
I'd advise against buying the iaito before you find a dojo.

So, avoiding the condescending tone of the post, you believe there is a marked difference in desirable sword attributes between the styles? That an "properly" sized sword, according to research online, could impare me? I'm primarily considering the purchase now because I can afford to, whereas later I may not be able. I'd also enjoy it in the meantime. No, I don't plan to pull my underwear over my head and run around like a ninja. I was actually thinking along the lines of just handling it to get a feel for it, perhaps a few subari occasionally.

Carlos, unfortunately there are no teachers in this area. I've researched it fairly throughly. Also, this is about an standard zinc-aluminum iai. Though the steel ones do look very nice.

Carlos Estrella
22nd December 2002, 18:07
Try here:

http://www.kendo-sask.com/

They may be able to help you find instruction. Also, I understand what you mean when you say you can't find a teacher nearby... it's been a challenge for me as well.

I doubt anyone was trying to be condescending towards you... in fact, the idea of trying out a bokken first IF you must learn on your own (not a great idea according to 99.999999999 percent of the folks in this forum) is not without merit. I'd used a bokken and suburito on and off for years before actually finding instruction. The bad habits I'd been self-taught were not uncorrectable, and the conditioning for my forearms and wrists helped me immensely in the aiki arts.

If you can indeed get an iaito now vs. later, then regardless of what anyone has said before, feel free to get it. You can adapt to any blade, it just takes longer with some. Don't give up on finding a good teacher either - I found one of mine doing computer work, and he made the introduction for me with my other one, and I've never been happier!

Regards,

Carlos

Gorget the Frog
23rd December 2002, 04:28
*reads the link and starts to laugh*

I'm a member of that kendo club and already own two bokken. Thanks for your help though.

Kiz Belle
23rd December 2002, 08:57
Hi Gorget!

Does your Kendo club have any iaidoka? Ask around at your club, maybe someone does. As to your question...
So, avoiding the condescending tone of the post, you believe there is a marked difference in desirable sword attributes between the styles? That an "properly" sized sword, according to research online, could impare me?
Yes, there is a marked difference in desirable sword attributes between the different styles of iai. Different schools not only require different length swords, but also differing sharpness. As an example, I have recently taken up Seitei-gata iaido, which uses a shorter "properly sized" katana than the MJER system under Sekiguchi Komei which I trained in before.
Could you please tell me your method of finding out what sword length is best for them? I'd be curious to know.

Good luck

samuel-t
23rd December 2002, 15:24
Originally posted by Gorget the Frog
So, avoiding the condescending tone of the post, you believe there is a marked difference in desirable sword attributes between the styles? That an "properly" sized sword, according to research online, could impare me?


Originally posted by Kiz Belle
Yes, there is a marked difference in desirable sword attributes between the different styles of iai. Different schools not only require different length swords, but also differing sharpness. As an example, I have recently taken up Seitei-gata iaido, which uses a shorter "properly sized" katana than the MJER system under Sekiguchi Komei which I trained in before.

A couple of thoughts on the subject:

What I learnt is that if you stand with the sword in your right hand, relaxed, with the swords tip pointing towards the floor, there should be approximately 5 cm of air between the tip and the floor, for a good seitei gata blade length.

I bought my iaito from Nosyuiado, and used their blade length calculator to find out which blade length would be proper for me (turned out that they recommended, based on my input of 175 cm, that 2-4-5 would be the correct length). I had -- before that -- had the opportunity to lend a 2-4-5 iaito at my dojo for about a month, and that one was just sliiiightly too long, so when I ordered my iaito I thought about the length twice and came to the conclusion that I must be a bit shorter than the 175 cm that I thought that I was :rolleyes:, so I ordered a 2002 with a blade length of 2-4-0. It is perfect!

Perfect for seitei gata, that is. Not perfect (but quite alright) for my koryu (MSR -- Muso Shinden Ryu), because for MSR I should have a slightly shorter blade (perhaps 2-3-5 or even 2-3-0) to be able to draw and cut quicker. (At least according to my sensei and I trust his knowledge.)

On the other hand, Hyakutake Colins (http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword) -- a frequent visitor to e-Budo, practices Choken Battojutsu Kageryu (among other koryu) and they use swords that are extremely long (but most likely not suitable for seitei gata ;))

Good luck
/Samuel

Charles Mahan
23rd December 2002, 16:50
Well if you just have to buy an Iaito, then you could do a lot worse than Nosyuiaido(Swordstore.com). They typically have excellent balance, fittings, tsuka-ito(handle wraps), and are truly some of the best Iaito to be found anywhere.

I would advise against learning Iaido on your own with a new sword. They can be damaged rather easily if you do not do saya-biki(left handed pull during a draw) correctly. Without proper instruction you may very well destroy your saya(scabbard).

I would echo everyone else. If you must start without instruction, start with a bokuto, or even a bokuto with saya(scabbard). Most instructors will start you this way anyway for a few months.

chrismoses
23rd December 2002, 18:28
I say go for it. The Swordstore method for finding proper blade length is a good one. Many people find that initially the 'proper lenght' feels too long at first. As your technique develops the size will start to feel more natural. Certainly you may find a school eventually that prefers something different, but a good quality iaito is a good quality iaito. I really like their products, and the ability to design a fairly customized iaito. It sounds like you already have some sword experience, and it's not like you're asking which "battle-ready" sword you should get. Go for it and enjoy. Ah, I still remember opening that box after ordering mine, I just sat there on the floor looking at it for a while. They really do put together a beautiful iaito.

DCPan
23rd December 2002, 18:52
Hi,

I say go for it as well.

I bought my first iaito while I was in St. Louis ~ 1997, devoid of any instruction in Kendo or Iaido. I had some experience with Kendo at that point, and no experience in Iaido at all.

I thought the Kata Yo would kill two birds with one stone, being able to be used for both Kendo Kata and Iai, but wind up getting another iaito for the groove anyway; hence the kata yo sitting in the buy and sell section.

I didn't get formal instruction in iai until 2000. It helped in that I didn't have to worry as much about which foot goes where, but I did have a plethora of bad habits to overcome. So what? Even with great instruction, you would still start with a lot of bad habits to overcome.

Besides, you could always practice Kendo Kata Solo with it...it's also fun to see if you can get the blade to whistle doing kirikaeshi and various other kendo stuff.

I thought I knew hasuji, then I picked up an iaito.

I wonder what kind of rude awakening I will face when I finally get to do tameshigiri....

Chidokan
23rd December 2002, 20:49
Nothing wrong with buying one while you have the cash! I'd echo most peoples advice though and try and avoid playing with it until you know what you are doing, you will definitely damage the saya.
I've even seen iaito take on a pronounced curve due to people forcing them out of the saya!
Use it for kendo kata solo practise, nothing wrong with that, but dont be tempted to use it against another iaito, they tend to get dings very easily if they come into contact with other blades.
Main thing is not to get too enthusiastic before youre ready, it would be a shame to spend the cash only to have it damaged...

Tim Hamilton

DCPan
23rd December 2002, 22:06
Well,

I thought I share all the stupid things I did with my iaito without instruction so you wouldn't suffer the same :)

1. I used uchiko on my iaito. All that achieve is scratches.
2. I oiled the habaki as well as the blade.
3. I tried shoving the sword all the way into the saya so there is no gap between the seppa and the koiguchi.

When I first got the iaito, the koiguchi was very tight. So, naturally, you can see a little gap between the koiguchi and the seppa when the iaito is sheathed. Being an ill-guided perfectionist, I took it to task to make sure the sword is sheathed all the way...

That's really the big silly stuff that I did. Nosyuiaido's page has some great advice on swordcare, so I won't repeat them here.

Have fun!

stevemcgee99
24th December 2002, 01:30
It's better, IMO, to learn maai with a bokken. The blunt edge (that's hundreds cheaper) won't damage things as badly or get as damaged. You really must get an obi before you draw an iaito- otherwise plan a new saya into your budget for sure. The obi needs to be the right kind, too.
Get a shorter blade, is my recommendation, if you must buy before you begin classes.
Anyway, just having the iaito is temptation enough to use it, which one is only likely to use it improperly without some time practicing under the supervision of an experienced instructor. My 2 cents, there.
Get a bokken now. They weigh about half that of an iaito, and you'll get closer to being able to control it with some suburi.

chrismoses
24th December 2002, 16:22
From "Gorget"
"I'm a member of that kendo club and already own two bokken. Thanks for your help though."

It does not seem to me to be a huge step for someone in a kendo club who already uses bokken to go get their own iaito. It looks like he's taking all the right steps in the right order to me.

Chuck.Gordon
24th December 2002, 16:54
Originally posted by Gorget the Frog

So, avoiding the condescending tone of the post,

Sorry. Didn't mean to be. Just offering advice. I can be terse, but don't mean to be annoying ...


you believe there is a marked difference in desirable sword attributes between the styles?

Difference in _preferences_ between styles and teachers. Yep. Absolutely.


That an "properly" sized sword, according to research online, could impare me?

I'm not saying it would impair you. It MIGHT, however, reflect unfavorably on you in the eyes of a teacher who has strict ideas about how students should train in his or her dojo ... and there are those out there.


No, I don't plan to pull my underwear over my head and run around like a ninja.

Glad to hear that! :p


... unfortunately there are no teachers in this area.

Lots of good advice above. If you're already a member of a kendo club, have you asked the folks there?

As for my caution, I'm leery of beginning iai/batto folks using live blades. However, if you already do the kendo no kata, you probably have a decent grasp of the mechanics of sayabiki etc.

Have you checked out the iaido list? It's a great source for info and advice ...

http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A0=iaido-l&D=0&O=D

Chuck

Gorget the Frog
24th December 2002, 21:04
Originally posted by DCPan

1. I used uchiko on my iaito. All that achieve is scratches.
2. I oiled the habaki as well as the blade.
3. I tried shoving the sword all the way into the saya so there is no gap between the seppa and the koiguchi.


I have to ask, why oil the blade of an iaito at all? A zinc-aluminium blade shouldn't easily rust. Or so I would assume intuitively.

Many thanks to everyone for their opinions and advice. Though I'm a little skeptical about damaging it "that" easily if your careful. I wouldn't plan on slamming the iai into the saya.

Paulo K. Ogino
24th December 2002, 21:30
If you got your iaito, you could try to learn some with books. It's not the proper method, but if you can't reach any teacher, it's a good way to get into Iaido. You can try searching amazon.com, I know there are some good books on some Iai styles. Try also koryu.com you can get more info and if you need videos, try this link:

http://www.shobi-u.ac.jp/~tnagae/iai/iai.html

It has the complete Muso Shinden Ryu system in avi format. These are perfect for those who need to get into it.

Hope this helps!!!

Gambate kudasai!!! :D

Chuck.Gordon
25th December 2002, 10:42
Originally posted by Gorget the Frog


I have to ask, why oil the blade of an iaito at all? A zinc-aluminium blade shouldn't easily rust. Or so I would assume intuitively.

Many thanks to everyone for their opinions and advice. Though I'm a little skeptical about damaging it "that" easily if your careful. I wouldn't plan on slamming the iai into the saya.

Oil: If using an iaito, I VERY lightly oil the blade. Not to preent rust a'tall, but to ease the slide during noto. I used to think that was unnecessary, and never did this before Kiyama Hiroshi Sensei told me to do so during a visit. My noto improved greatly.

Not so worried about you damaging the saya or blade, but more about you damaging yourself ...

Chuck

Enfield
26th December 2002, 06:27
Originally posted by Chuck.Gordon
However, if you already do the kendo no kata, you probably have a decent grasp of the mechanics of sayabiki etc.We kendo people rarely, if ever, practice the kendo kata with katayo/habiki. And when we do, the batto is substantially different than what I've learned in iaido, as you draw to get your sword into chudan in sonkyo, not to immediately cut.

Chuck.Gordon
26th December 2002, 07:51
Originally posted by Enfield
We kendo people rarely, if ever, practice the kendo kata with katayo/habiki. And when we do, the batto is substantially different than what I've learned in iaido, as you draw to get your sword into chudan in sonkyo, not to immediately cut.

Hmm. Didn't know that, never having done the kendo-no-kata. Thanks for the data.

As for the methods of drawing, there's no One True Draw. Each of the different branches of iai/batto has its own, for instance.

Chuck

DCPan
26th December 2002, 16:48
Hi,

About oiling the iaito. It does keep your hand oil and finger prints from staining the iaito.

Also, it does make noto easier.

I don't oil my iaito that often, but I am told it is good practice for when you get your shinken so you'd remember to clean it properly, minus the uchiko part...I'm glad I asked about the uchiko on the iaido-l eons ago before I managed to uchiko my kata yo to oblivion.

Also, regarding doing kendo kata with habiki, unless you have your own set, practicing kata with habiki usually means you've been selected to do the kata demo for the next taikai. Surprisingly, there's very little saya biki in the way the sword is drawn in kendo kata....

I thought they'd at least make it the same as for the seitei iai....

Dont given them any ideas though :D

gendzwil
26th December 2002, 21:42
Originally posted by DCPan
Surprisingly, there's very little saya biki in the way the sword is drawn in kendo kata....
Noto ain't no screaming hell, either. You just pull the thing out and stick it back in, it's what's in the middle that's important for the kata. At least, I've never received much instruction on the matter.

Neil

DCPan
26th December 2002, 22:59
> You just pull the thing out and stick it back in,

That's the point! :D You are less likely to cut yourself if you are capping the saya onto the sword rather than sticking the sword into the saya.

I believe the same is applied to sword appreciation and how the saya is slided back on by the left rather than the sword pushed into the shiro-saya.

> it's what's in the middle that's important for the kata.

Yeah, but if the kata is meant to keep Kendo attached to the principles of the katana, shouldn't the way the sword is drawn be addressed?

Isn't that what seitei was for? If both seitei and Kendo Kata are by ZNKR, why don't they have the same draw and noto?

After all the talk of de-emphasizing the right hand and being aware of the left hand, it is funny to see that the way the habiki is drawn in the kata is almost ALL RIGHT HAND!!!

Just my thoughts...

Chidokan
27th December 2002, 11:57
kendo kata has been reviewed recently in Japan, with about half a dozen changes... should be interesting to see what they are!
Thinking about noto for kata, I have never been taught it either, I just use my knowledge from MJER iaido. This may be down to the fact that kendo kata are always taught at a basic level with bokken, and with the consideration that the sword is already drawn.
5th dans start to use iaito, so presumably the interest in kendo should have diversified to look at sword arts in general by that time, and the user has at least a rudimentary idea of noto?
I'd be interested in comments from a Japanese rather than a western perspective on this...
Using a shinken with no idea of noto will lead to a cut hand as the sword will cut through the saya quite quickly by the way..

Tim Hamilton

gendzwil
27th December 2002, 17:27
Originally posted by Chidokan
Using a shinken with no idea of noto will lead to a cut hand as the sword will cut through the saya quite quickly by the way..
Well, I was taught that much, anyways - how to hold around the koiguchi, how to use the left hand as a guide for the mune.

As for godans using iaito - that must be just a convention where you practice. Here, whoever gets tagged to do the demo learns to do it with iaito, I think I first did it at nidan or so.

Chidokan
27th December 2002, 18:11
The godan thing came from a Japanese guy's comment watching a kata demo using blades, he was something like 6th dan at the time, so may have been a thing in his area back home. I've done kata demos as well at a low grade using iaito. Always had a good regular partner who I can trust though, so I've got no scars from accidents...
One other difference I notice is that kendoka tend to be more deliberate drawing and sheathing the blade. Must be down to the draw not being a cut..I know I sometimes surprise my non-regular partners when I draw at my usual speed for kata! Bit like attacking from sonkyo!:D

Tim Hamilton

Charles Mahan
27th December 2002, 20:05
Hmm... As to the difference between drawing and then starting the kata for kendo kata and the draws in Iai techniques, the two can't ever really be done the same way. If I understand the purpose of the draw in the kendo kata, the purpose is to remove the sword from the scabbard so that the kata can begin.

A proper Iai draw stops before the blade ever leaves the saya. At a point where there is just a little bit of the blade left in the saya the drawing portion of the motion stops, saya-biki is in full force, and the cut or perhaps parry begins moments before the kissakki actually leaves the saya. That's the tricky part. If the kissakki leaves the saya and then the cut starts, that isn't really iaido. I do not know for sure that this principle is key to Seitei, but it is difficult to imagine it otherwise.

By this reasoning the draw for kendo kata and the draw for iai can never really be the same, because one stops before the blade is free, and the other does not.

Hmm... Not sure that's entirely clear.

DCPan
27th December 2002, 21:09
What about that kata where the person walks between two person/by-stander before striking the enemy down? In that case, the draw is not an attack or a deflection.

I think limiting what a draw 'IS' in Iai or Kendo simply self-limiting....

I don't see why you can't draw in a fashion similarly to morote-zuki without doing the "cut", but just do it as a drawing the sword out.

Besides, when does an iai-draw ever physically STOP? (I think what you meant was in a draw just to get the sword out, there's not the same amount of saya-biki as doing a strike?)

Charles Mahan
27th December 2002, 21:58
You are correct. The kata you mentioned does not match the definition of Iai that I provided.

What I was getting at is that in iai, the draw and the cut are inseperable. The cut/parry begins, before the draw is completed. You cannot use an iai draw and then just not cut/parry, because there is no difference between the two. It's not really as simple as stating that the sword never stops.

Let's see... how to describe... This would be so easy to show.

Assume you are drawing for a one handed kesa. We'll break it down into the basic steps for illustration's sake. The initial portion of the motion is to draw the blade edge up to about as far as the right hand can go without leaning. The next portion of the motion is to begin saya-biki with the left hand. This motion pulls the saya back to the point where only the kissaki, by which I mean the portion of the blade from the yokote to the absolute tip, remains within the saya. NOTE the blade is still inside the saya. The next motion is to begin the cut with the pinky finger using primarily a wrist motion.

But don't you remove the kissaki before cutting? No. That's the point I'm trying to illustrate. I've seen some one handed kesa tameshigiri videos online that illustrate the wrong way of doing this. The practitioner in these videos will do everything ok right up to saya-biki, then they pull the sword out, and frequently will actually pull the sword back before beginning the cut, as if winding up to throw a fast ball. While this provides extra power for the cut, it is not iaido, because the cut started after the sword left the saya.

DCPan
27th December 2002, 22:49
Hi Charles,

I see what you are saying about where the draw/cut begins. I've never thought about it in that light, thanks!

What I was thinking though, was more along the lines of just knowing how to use the saya.

Though, in a recent kata seminar this year, Kamei sensei from Japan did say to draw the bokuto/habiki for the kendo kata as if doing a left kesa....

Incidently, I saw in your simple breakdown in the post that saya-biki does not begin until your right hand has drawn the sword as far out as you can without leaning. So, is the left hand static until the sword is almost drawn all the way? In other words, is the absolute position of the koiguchi the same as before the sword was drawn until the sword is most of the way out?

The reason I'm asking is because I've noticed that my left hand moves too early/fast in the draw, so the saya is receded to the point where the kurigata runs into the obi before the sword is drawn as far out as can be without leaning. Result, the left hand is static for a moment between saya-biki and saya-banare.

So, I'm curious as to the coordination of the left hand's control of the saya relative to the right hand draw.

Chidokan
28th December 2002, 22:05
easier to show than describe!!! Both hands move together but the right has a longer distance to travel than the left ( obviously). the ideal point would be to have the kissaki just at the point of coming out of the saya when you cant take the saya more than an inch further back in the obi, and a slight bend in your right arm.
Think we are trying to describe the fundamental difference between iaido and kendo here...I wouldnt use a full iaido draw for kendo, I'd have to hit someone while still in sonkyo..Neither would I use the draw for kendo in iaido, it would be too weak and wouldnt hit anything, just be going into chudan.
I recently had to change the way I use the saya. The twist while drawing about a third of the way out is for beginners apparently, I now have to try and force my fist through my stomach so the saya has a flatter movement and turn the kissaki as it leaves the koiguchi... again difficult to describe but easy to show!

Tim Hamilton

stevemcgee99
29th December 2002, 06:52
But I enjoy the technical discussion. I don't get that in class so far.

As for premature purchase of an iaito, get something cheap ($300 or so). Once you have a grasp on things, it'll be a little worn, probably. When you find a school, buy a higher quality one (now that your techniques "deserves" it- and I really don't mean this in a condescending way at all), and pas on your first one to a new student later. :)

Charles Mahan
29th December 2002, 09:13
To some degree we are probably getting into style differences, but my left hand and right hand move away from each other in such a way that the right hand reaches it's natural extension at about the same time the kurigata reaches the obi. Then of course there is the extra bit of hard saya-biki and cut.

This really is one of those better to ask sensei things. Just about impossible to put it in words.

I believe Swordstore sells an iaito in the $350 or so range. Perfectly good iaito too. Basically the same weight, and balance as the more expensive swords. The differences are in the quality of the fittings.

stevemcgee99
30th December 2002, 00:47
"quality of the fittings" is described as a difference between more expensive iaito and cheaper iaito (by not just you, Charles).

My question is: What is quality? Sloppy vs. precise fit? Authentic materials and methods of construction vs. machine-made inexpensive metals? Inconsistent finish between similar models? Less noise during nuki? Better balance, or better resiliance of the tsuka after prolonged use?

Or, is it just the same level of quality in the above categories, but fewer choices available?

I'm planning on dropping some dough on an iaito soon. For a little while I thought about buying a chen practical plus so I could cut, too, but I just looked at one last night- pretty sloppy. So, I'm convinced about the iaito nw. I'd be bummed if there was not too much difference between what I have now and a mid-quality one. So, that's why i'm asking.

If I could just pre-inspect them, there would be no question!

samuel-t
30th December 2002, 01:11
Originally posted by stevemcgee99
"quality of the fittings" is described as a difference between more expensive iaito and cheaper iaito (by not just you, Charles).

My question is: What is quality? Sloppy vs. precise fit? Authentic materials and methods of construction vs. machine-made inexpensive metals? Inconsistent finish between similar models? Less noise during nuki? Better balance, or better resiliance of the tsuka after prolonged use?

Depends on where you get your iaito, I guess. I've held some really cheap iaito from Tozando, and I really didn't like those. On the other hand; their more expensive models are quite nice (though not as nice IMHO as Nosyuiado's :))


Originally posted by stevemcgee99
Or, is it just the same level of quality in the above categories, but fewer choices available?

At Nosyuiaido (http://www.swordstore.com/) it is. They use the same blades, same fittings, same saya makers, etc, but you have fewer choices. They are very helpful too, and willing to answer any question that you may have concerning your purchase.


Originally posted by stevemcgee99
I'm planning on dropping some dough on an iaito soon. For a little while I thought about buying a chen practical plus so I could cut, too, but I just looked at one last night- pretty sloppy.

I'm actually thinking about buying a PPK for beginning tameshigiri practice -- it's cheap enough that I won't cry my heart out if I ruin the blade. Don't think that I would want it for kata practice though -- it looks pretty damn ugly to me (at least compared to my iaito) -- but I'd hate to buy an expensive sword and risk ruining on bad tameshigiri...


Originally posted by stevemcgee99
So, I'm convinced about the iaito nw. I'd be bummed if there was not too much difference between what I have now and a mid-quality one. So, that's why i'm asking.

What do you have now? Almost everyone at my dojo have iaito from Nosyuiaido, and all of them agree that they are well balanced, and beautiful.

(I can hear myself being quite biased, and I plead guilty, but so far I haven't experienced or heard anything bad about their products.)


Originally posted by stevemcgee99
If I could just pre-inspect them, there would be no question!

Maybe you could. Nosyuiaido's office in the USA is (to my knowledge) situated somewhere in California. And they sometimes represent at seminars and competitions. Why don't you mail them and ask about the possibility. :)

/Samuel

Charles Mahan
30th December 2002, 02:54
Selection is certainly part of it, but when I refer to quality of fittings as a way to distinguish between the low end swords and the high end swords at Swordstore, I am referring to many things. I suggest going to the website and judging for yourself.

All the "practical" aspects are basically the same between the $350 low end and the $900 or so upper end. The differences lie in the "quality" of the fittings. Silk instead of cotton on the ito(wrap). Silver instead of Brass on the Habaki. Real ray skin same under the ito instead of plastic. A fancy polish instead of a real simple one. Silk Sageo instead of cotton. Etc. ad nauseum. You get the idea. The blades themselves as I understand it are the same. The quality of the handle wrap and construction labor wise is the same. The differences are mostly in the materials.

All that said. I spent $600 on mine, because I wanted some of the upgraded fittings.

In my addimitedly limited experience, the Swordstore/Nosyuiaido fittings are top notch. The wraps on the handles are essentially permanent. After more than 5 years of swinging mine, my wrap is solid as a rock. The dojo I train at has ordered probably 50 or so of them over the last 5 years, with only a couple of minor problems. Those problems were addressed very quickly by the Swordstore. The customer service is excellent.

Sounds like I work for them doesn't it. I don't. Just consider it a glowing review.

Chidokan
30th December 2002, 12:04
Must admit they are nicer than most we see outside of Japan. One thing I would say is to avoid the 'gold' plating on tsuba and fittings, it tends to wear off and look scruffy after prolonged use. There are some really nice plain iron tsuba available, go for them... Also avoid the lighter coloured tsuka if you intend to hang onto it for a while, they look awful when they start to get dirty and are a pain to clean.

Tim Hamilton

DCPan
31st December 2002, 13:39
Hi all,

With regards to the blade, there can be differences, i.e. semi-sharp vs standard. Also, there are groove options: kaki-nagashi groove or kaki-otoshi groove, vs the standard maru-dome. For a plethora of blade shapes for iai, check out the Minosaka website easily found on google.

Of course, there's always the cosmetic hamon variation.

Then, there's the habaki...plain matte finish vs. patterned and or two-toned. There's also brass, copper, or silver or gold to choose from.

Tsuba, I wouldn't go for anything but iron.

Fuchi and gashira, again, there's the whole brass, copper, iron, or silver plated.

Also, on the kurigata, there could be the shitodome.

On the saya itself, the high-end ones have kojiri (end cap) and reinforced koiguchi with horn or other materials.

So yeah, there are a lot of high-end options if you are willing to invest.

DCPan
31st December 2002, 13:41
So,

For you iai-folks...during class, when sensei asks you to draw the sword out for kiri-o-roshi practice, what do you do! :D

About that whole drawing the sword in the kendo kata again :D

:D

Chidokan
31st December 2002, 17:33
I forgot to mention, try and get a short kissaki and a fairly 'flat' blade, makes it easier to draw...

Tim Hamilton

DCPan
1st January 2003, 02:55
Hello,

Somebody told me that Nosyu's blades are well known for their characteristic short tip that roughly translates to "pig's head" for the easier draw.

However, what did you mean by a "flat" blade?

Thanks!

Chidokan
1st January 2003, 17:08
sorry, should have been more descriptive...
Sword curvature varies from fairly pronounced to a gentle curve, comparing a tachi style to a 'modern' standard iaito would be a good example. Some iaito makers supply copies of the various styles,i.e. long and short kissaki, strong medium and light curvature, Koei Budogu being a good example of this. Unfortunately the website doesn't show this, just their catalogue. If you need better descriptions of sword styles there are some excellent websites about which go into great detail...it aint just the tsuba and saya colours that change though!
I seem to remember someone going into great detail regarding why the kissaki shapes are done like they are on another thread, but basically a long one is a good flesh cutter and a short one a good armour penetrator. Iaito kissaki are normally a compromise between the two...

Tim Hamilton

p.s. Koei blades seem easily available in the states from the amount of e-shops I see listed. If you like tip heavy blades they are quite well made, I have one as a spare for beginners wanting to make the change from bokken to iaito and waiting for their own to arrive..

stevemcgee99
1st January 2003, 18:31
That's interesting. Are these the ones Tozando also sells? And, are Nosyu iaito less so?

I sent you (Chidokan) an off-topic PM.

Chidokan
1st January 2003, 19:33
Possibly, I've never really looked at the Tozando ones, although I've bought bogu from them!! They only had a couple of iaito at the Kyoto taikai and I spent more time drooling over some koto blades. Nosyu are fairly similar, although you can get shinken in various styles from them.

Tim Hamilton

DCPan
1st January 2003, 20:29
Hi,

Tozando, from what I know, carries iaito from two suppliers.

Their zinc-aluminum blades from the 100 series on their website is basically the same as that of minosaka company. When I ordered their Higo #105 last time, even the minosaka triangle in circle mark is on the shipping box.

Their zinc-berylium blades "appears to be" from the same source as KOEI, from my observations...their simply choose different fittings from similar model lines from different companies...but if you actually hold them, they feel the same. For example, take a look at Tozando's dotanuki model,

http://tozando.com/eng/iaido/ka70.html

then look at:

http://www.bogubag.com/Swords/Swords/Specialty_Swords/specialty_swords.html

Don't they look quite similar?

If you have a chance to look at their up-stream catalog, you'll see that each model have about 4-6 tsuba to choose from, thus, easily made to look like different model options.

The zinc-berylium blades are basically the same...just the standard, semi-sharp, the the dotanuki version of the same...so approx 4 blade types.

It is the zinc-aluminum blades from the minosaka #100 series that have more blade variations as they are mostly patterned after historic blade shapes/fittings. For example, take a look at

http://www.minosaka.co.jp/b3.htm

See, with their #120 Dotanuki, you have 3 blade shapes to choose from.

Have fun choosing your blade!

DCPan
2nd January 2003, 17:17
Hi,

Forgot to mention for the zinc-berylium variety, there's also the double-groove and the grooveless (for Kendo Kata Yo).

Ookami-shinkage
12th January 2003, 18:48
This guy sounds like me when I went to the Bugei Forum asking close to the same thing!
:eek: He even has the same first name as me.... I am getting suspicious now...:eek:
Just kidding. :D

I got reamed at the Bugei forum for asking simple questions...
I still to this day do not understand how some people can get so angry and insult someone they do not even know over simple questions...
Anyway, I have been practicing with a bokken alot, and thanks to a few nice people at Bugei, I avoided making a serious mistake of purchasing an expensive sword before I joined a school.

DCPan
14th January 2003, 18:40
Originally posted by Bobar57
If your intention is to buy an iaito you have several options that I'll post here(with my own personal opinions)
-Oh,first an aclaration,the main makers and suppliers to distributors of iatos are:Minosaka,Meirin,and Nosyu(this last one only will sell to CET-Sword Store)but in Japan you can find a deal.Koei is a distributor as Tozando,not a maker or supplier.

While I've read the Meirin advertise themselves as the pioneer for making iaito, I thought the Zinc-Berylium blades distributed by Tozando and Koei was made by a company other than Meirin, according to a distributor catalog that I saw. Minosaka makes the zinc-aluminum ones.

I was wondering if you know who Meirin distributes to?

DCPan
14th January 2003, 19:33
Originally posted by Bobar57
Sorry,I'm a bad detective,but a quick fixer;) .
The 100 series from Tozando are from Minosaka and the KA- series from Kanemitsu.There you go,there is the difference and the supplier that I overlooked.Regarding the Meirin ones,I cant' be sure and don't take my word for it,but they look quite similars to the ones sold by Mujendo Bogudo.Someone got to ask.

Thanks.

The distributor catalog I saw only had the kanji "shin(new)-to(katana)-ken(tsurugi)" on it. I thought that was the name of the company. Is it not?

Do you have a link for Kanemitsu?

Thanks,

David