Weapons

[Amphinon]

While surfing, I found an intresting link that ties information of the developement of the Pinan/Heian with Weapon training. You can find it Here! (http://user.netomia.com/srsi/bmm1.html)

Although I have known these for years, and as I judge at tournaments, I see more and more competitors that do not understand the Katas they are competing with. They simply perform the kata that they most recently learned.

Are the Pinan/Heian Katas being taught in your school with weapons in mind? Do you agree with the site? What are youre thoughts?

Happy Holidays!

While surfing, I found an intresting link that ties information of the developement of the Pinan/Heian with Weapon training. You can find it Here!

David,

I have heard of people in western countries doing the Pinans with a weapon….. it sounds kind of odd since there are a boat load of weapons kata already out there.
So I too have to ask “Why?”

Some of the Kobudo kata mentioned on that site are also in the Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai. I am not sure if they do the same “version” but the name is the same at least so chances are it is similar.



Although I have known these for years, and as I judge at tournaments, I see more and more competitors that do not understand the Katas they are competing with. They simply perform the kata that they most recently learned.

I think that is the product of the “new wave” martial arts where looks are the most important thing……form over function.



Are the Pinan/Heian Katas being taught in your school with weapons in mind? Do you agree with the site? What are youre thoughts?

I don’t agree because we have a whole set of kobudo kata for each weapon we do…….but hey to each his own. I know some styles that have some pretty good interpretations of the empty hand version of the Pinans and some that have pretty whacked out interpretations. I would be interested to see what their take is on the techniques for the weapons from these kata are.

[Rob Alvelais]

The concept of the Heians as weapons kata is silly and indicative of a very myopic view of kata. It ignores that the heians derived from Itosu's brand of Shorin Ryu and that these kata are still extant on Okinawa. No kobudo systems use the Pinans as a traditional part of their cirriculum, as these kata were derived from Kushanku- an empty handed kata. Now some, rather creative (misguided), instructors might attempt to use the Pinans or Heians or, (shudder) Jutte, as a introductory form for their kobudo curriculum, it's not a standard practice and is not part of the traditional kobudo curriculum.

I have to echo Rob R's sentiments in wondering why someone would use the Heians in this way. After all, there are a gaggle of Okinawan Kobudo kata out ther already, and they were designed to take advantage of the attributes of the weapon. The Pinans weren't designed with any particular weapon in mind, other than the bare hand. Similarly, I find it rather incredible to think that Funakoshi re-engineered the Pinans to the Heians with a weapon in mind, especially since his students who did Kobudo with Funakoshi learned kata like Sakugawa No Kon, or Tenryu no kon and certainly not Heian shodan no kon.

Rob

Rob

Rob,

Well put.
I am still curious as to “why” anyone would feel the need to do that?

If am not mistaken there are probably more Okinawan kobudo kata than empty hand kata.
You have to figure there are most likely at least 3 or 4 kata at for every weapon.

[Victor]

I'd just like to throw in $0.02 here.

Are you aware it's likely the tradition of taking empty hand kata and changing them to weapons kata may have been supported by Taira Shinken. I've read he would suggest instructors take kata they(or their students knew) and use them for weapons kata.

There's no documentation why Isshinryu's founder chose to take Kusanku kata and create Kusanku Sai, but he did study with Taira too.

I've seen this done with numerous kata, such as Seisan and Chinto with Sai, Empi with almost everything in existence such as sai and kama, and so forth.

So I suppose I could understand why somebody without a kobudo tradition in their background would want to take the Pinan/Heian kata and do so.

But I heartily agree, it would be far better to find somebody with traditional training and learn from them, or if that's not possible, purchase a video and try and work it out from there than take the time to change an existing kata.

For one thing, its a waste of time and effort to create a new beginning form. The time can be more productive learning and practicing any of the forms existant.

Just my thoughts,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

[Amphinon]

Since the weapons or the region and time were the one's we are talking about here, could it also be that these kata were to demonstrate how to defend against these weapons in an emtpy handed fashion?

At our school, the Heians are taught as empty handed katas. Certain parts of each kata hold great techniques for defending against weapons.

I'm not saying we practice the kata the way that they were meant to be taught, but the way we were taught.

Your thoughts?

[Budoka 34]

We had a similar discussion awhile back. I got hammered for suggesting that some openhand techniques and movement in kata may have developed from armed techniques.

Our kobudo instructor believes this may be true of some movements and techniques.
We also mustn't forget the included grappling(tuite?) built into most kata.
Did the Chinese and Okinawan masters who originated these kata only have one application in mind?

(IMHO)Whether you agree or not with the possibility of kobudo impacting empty hand kata, some very interesting tools can be found in kata to broaden the students understanding of potential application.
Keep your mind open to the potential and your students will prosper.

My instructor does not agree with some of the Japanese and Okinawan Karate history as it is popularly taught today, so he explains several histories, to those that care, and lets us base our opinion on the material.

We could study just the physical aspects of the Karate for a lifetime and never answer all the questions.

I really love this stuff! :D

:smilejapa

[Steven Malanosk]

The weapons actually have a personality unique to each.

The methodology of the individual weapon is the important part.

The schematic is not the technology.

Q: What came first, the kata or the bunkai?

An ignorant student would assume, that being that bunkai is "the meaning of the kata motion," that kata came first.

NO!

Kata is schematic!

The components are the meat!

As I said in another thread long ago:

Take the fence tool.

It is a large plyer looking tool, that is used to pull, twist and cut barbed wire for putting up fences.

If I use it as a hammer, that's fine.

But if I dont know what to do with it as a fence tool, thats a waste!

If I can use a hammer as a fence tool, thats great!

But think of the work that would have been saved, if I understood the intent of the tool that someone designed for the specific task!

In our GoJu, we have GekiSai. Funny that even as a pun, it is indeed also a sai kata.

Very basic.

Done in USA GoJu, and I have even seen it done by one of Yagi's sons, so I know that it is not just of our school.

Obviously a way to familiarize a student with sai kihon using a familiar scheme to them. But like the See Dick run books that we learned to read with in the early 60s, it is plebeian at best.

The instruction manuals "KoRyu Kata" of KoBuDo contain the proper usage and intent of the TOOL.

At tournaments, you often see the TOOL used as a TOY.

What is the difference between a TOY, a TOOL, and a WEAPON?

INTENTION.......................................

It is not the pattern that matters, its the knowledge of the weapons intended usage and the technology therein.

After that, do as thou wilt.

[Rob Alvelais]

Good Post, Steve!

And, in principle, I can go along with that. However, (you knew it was coming) ;) the fly in the ointment is the understanding of the tool. I agree with you that, once one understands the principles and attributes of the tool, that the shape of the kata used, isn't important. However, I think that we were talking about using the (Shotokan Heians in particular) but the pinan/heians to *learn* the principles and attributes of the weapon, on one's own and without a kobudo instructor. That, these kata were designed with the weapon in mind. IMO, that's preposterous.

Victor mentioned the purchase of a video tape and attempting to learn the use of a weapon that way. Great suggestion, however, these tapes typically have a kata on them. In the excellent video series by Fumio Demura, he's created, and includes, a kihon kata for the weapon featured on his tape. So, we're back to Rob R's initial question, "Why use a karate kata, when there's plenty of Kobudo kata to choose from?"

It just seems to me that attempting to use, an empty handed kata, even Gekkisai, to learn the principles of the kata isn't a satisfactory way at all to learn the weapon. A kata designed specifically for that weapon, is a much better way to go about it. And, in this age of VCR's, DVD players and even Streaming video online, there's no excuse for not being able to find a weapons kata.

Rob

[Steven Malanosk]

Of course!

You see, the kihon in OldBuDo kata, are the ABC's of the Tool's usage.

The waza in OldBuDo kata is the literacy.

One must study the INTENT of the TOOL.

Extrapolation and sophistication are then expected.

[TomMarker]

This subject is very interesting to me, as I am someone who is guilty of adapting emptyhanded forms by adding weapons. For me, it is an extension of my training and experimentation with the hyungs.

Sometimes, the forms work incredibly well (bassai dai with sai) and other times, it is like sticking a square peg into a round hole (three section staff with Pinan Nidan)

When I come across these problems, it begs the questions:
1. Is it not working because the movement doesn't lend itself to the weapon?
2. Is it not working due to my lack of understanding of the weapon?

I don't have any hard and fast rules about this... I.E. I don't say that Pinan 4 *is* a sai form. etc. So, I certainly wouldn't teach them to students in that manner, nor would I go about the business of using my interpretations of hyung as a basis for weapon Kihon. My method of practicing the basics of a weapon is through principles and repetition. Once they have a handle on that, I may say "hey, if you had to create a form for that, how would you do it?"

I think we can all agree that weapons are best when used as an extension of the body. Would it not be fair to assume then, that some empty handed hyungs will work very well with weapons?

Is that their original intent? Who the hell knows? :) I intend no disrespect for the masters who paved the way for my study, but The Way in which everyone does their forms/hyung/kata is a far cry from the creators'. Things are changed, added, forgotten, etc.

Sometimes, I think the forms are anything more than some good ideas for how to move. Maybe there was a genius who created a single set of forms in which the "secrets of fighting" are just waiting to be unlocked, but if they did, they didn't write out: "Ok, step one is for a,b,c,d,e,f,g,underwater,on the ground,horseback." I personally think that they instead combined basic techniques with a sound system of moving the body efficiently, and when the student had mastered that, they could begin to put the dots together.

[Steven Malanosk]

To use weapons as an extension of the body is of course correct.

I teach, as my teacher did, to be able to use anything as a weapon, as a result of knowledge capacitated.

But it is not necessarily "some genius" that made the OldBuDo kata, but folks who USED their weapons in ShinKen Shobu = real life and death battle. The methodologies have been tried and proven true through the mortality rate of those who developed them.

Of course those like Taira Sensei and others, adapted old knowledge to form what probably was. But they got their knowledge from the original sources.

Heck, I could use a blade, stick or what have you effectively, before I ever studied IaiDo, or Classical KoBuDo, just through my KaraTe and JuJitsu knowledge.

But after learning the way it was MEANT to be, I realize that I was working WAY too hard, and was blind to what was right in my hands all the while.

All of this also improved my KaraTe and JuJitsu skills greatly, as the techniques where meant to defend against weapons.

When walking through the mine field of combat, it is better to walk in the footsteps of those who made it all the way through, than to WING IT, or follow the map written by one who never actually crossed the field.

[Victor]

As I follow this discussion it rather highlites how many divergent practices there are in the martial arts.

For myself, as I practice Isshinryu, the Isshinryu kubudo kata are a natural part of my studies. Likewise in my tai chi chaun practice I've spent over 20 years working on the tai chi straight sword.

Where many karate groups don't practice kobudo (even today), I've been fortunate to study many other kobudo traditions.

They're great studies for coordination, building strength and dexterity. On the whole they're terribly un-realistic for modern weapons self defense.

Consider how last Thanksgiving 15,000 knives were confisticated at the USA airports. With growing spread of weapons detection and checkpoints likely to continue beyond airports, those practices will make most of the kobudo training, worthless for self defense. Excepting possibly stick, and even short at that.

If you really feel a need for weapons defense todayy, you don't want to waste your time on sai, tanto, or kama, although they retain positive values from a training perspective.

Hence, taking the time to create new basic weapons kata from pinan or other kata. A waste of time. There are other and better options. Find them and become productive in your training.

Practicing kata won't develop the ability to fight with weapons. Its but a kindergarden level of the training. One you need to address, but not more than that.

Discussing the worth of creating more kindergarten kata, need I really say more.

The value in kobudo is not to learn to fight with the weapon, and I really suspect even in the Chinese arts, the real reason was the physical benefits, such as developing stronger grip, than real weapons deployement. After all the Chinese invented gun-powder.

If you really want kobudo, then pay the price and find a real kobudo tradition and follow it.

Such is my opinion.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

[Tatsu]

In some Shorin Ryuha, Kusanku is used as both an empty-hand and weapon form. My first sensei (Shorinkan) used Chinto in the same way. It really was a dynamic looking weapons kata. He won many a tournament with this "unorthodox" rendering of a traditional empty-hand kata. Use of empty-hand forms performed as kobudo kata is not a novel concept. I've seen Ananku used as a weapons kata, too. No doubt the lessons gleaned from both types of kata overlap to some degree.

I think that many things are enhanced when kobudo is introduced into the curriculum. Hojo Undo aside, we all know that any additional weight in your hands will increase certain aspects of strength and flexibilty. Ma-ai and the understanding of ones proprioception, where your entire body is in time and space, is altered. This in turn gives one a new experiential base from which to work. Taisabaki is also ingrained, and economy of movement and technique are cultivated. "Getting out of the way" is reinforced in kobudo/Kobujutsu training.

I think that kobudo training, regardless if the weapons are "outmoded" or not, does nothing but enhance one's traditional M.A.s ability and knowledge. It definitely won't hamper it whatsoever. If your Pinan Shodan Bo kata makes combat and training sense then more power to you. I'm lucky enough to train in a system that includes practically every known Okinawan weapon (and the kata to go with them). Still, if your mechanics and principles are sound, then you are definitely increasing your martial skill. It's fun to learn new things! Happy Holidays all!!!

The weapon as an extension of the hand:

This is true we are supposed to think of the weapon in this mode but another benefit from weapons training is the strength you gain from doing so.

Take the Sai.....throw about 1,000 strikes with it and you will get one hell of a hand/forearm/shoulder workout!.........will it improve your empty hand techniques......you better believe it!

Bokken/Eku/Bo/Jo are also good for empty hand techniques.

Are any of these weapons useful in the modern world.......for their "goriginal" intent, not really. However, they do help Karateka develop or improve on skills they already have.


Using Empty hand Kata for Kobudo:

As I said before..I would still be interested in seeing some of the techniques they have come up with by doing this.
I think everyone gave valid reason for their ideas both for and against.
Nonetheless, I am still a skeptical SOB and until I see it and feel it I am unconvinced as to the value of doing it.

[kusanku]

The Heian Kata have the same basic stances and hand positioning in them as Taira Kobudo. How much of this is due to Taira Shinken training and teaching at Funakoshi's dojo, is unknown.

The Heians can be done with the weapons mentioned.Were they designed to be done such? Don't know.The techniques are pretty similar to basic ones done in kobudo kata of the Taira system.

Where did the information come from about relation of Pinans to different weapons and animals? It came from Kobayashi Ryu Shorin ryu, from a man who studied on Okinawa with Hanshi Nakazato, to another man who sent Bob McMahon that information on request.

Is the info correct? I don't know, but can't say it isn't, especially since the Kusanku Kata, especially the Chatan Yara version , ws in fact done three ways: empty hand, as a sai form, and as a hairpin form, using the twin hairpins done upp in the samurai topknot.The move where you reach behind the head is drawing one, and the up block in the way down stance, after the kick, is drawing the other one.

Hohan Soken spoke of it being taught to him thus, as a hairpin kata, Isshinryu teaches Kusanku Sai, and Matsubayashi Ryu does the empty hand version only, but the moves are all there.

One person doing Uechi Ryu said an old man showed him a sai kata that looked like sanchin done with two sai.

Here's a question we may not ask enough:Are the empty hand kata of Okinawa partly or wholly derived from weapons kata?

As to Itosu , if he knew the early versions of the kata, before he changed them, and he did from all accounts,did he know the weapons versions too, and did he take into account weapons usage when he devised the last pinan, which some say is the only one he really did invent, completing three and four left to him by Matsumura along with one and two?

Here's another fact: Both Matsubayashi Ryu and Kobayashi Ryu, and this practice apparently reaches to Okinawa, teach doing ewmpty hand kata with weapoins as a drill and intro to weapons manipulation.

Why do this when kobudo kata exist?I think its mental training.

We were told in beginning Matsubayashi Ryu, that the way one holds the hands in the Okinawan kata, if done with two sharp knives, will not cut your hands.Tried it with two Bowies, it worked, no cuts. Btw, this manner of holding the fist may not be the way people are taught now, so watch out. In Japanese kata, el slice-o.

Yet, trying the Heians with the specific weapons named for each, will enbable basic manipulations to occur without harm.

I've done it, after all.

Works best with the Shorin ryu pinans and other kata,though.If it looks like a duck, etc.Maybe it is one.

I was taught, Okinawan kata have five levels of application. The fifth is weapons level, which involves evasion and simultaneous strikes.Strikes to vital points.

Of course, these are very effective using weapons.

Another excercise some Okinawan styles teach, is using weapons kata as empty hand.

In Okinawan Ti, I understand weapons and empty hand are done exactly the same.So that if you study the empty hand, the weapons usage is the same.

In karate kobujutsu however, the weapons usage tends to become more complex, yet still have the same basis as the empty hand.

Many mysteries and ambiguities exist regarding the origins of Okinawan karate and kobujutsu, and perhaps we should not be so quick to dismiss such things.Or to say we know exactly the truth of them.One thing for sure, I didn't make up the information.It was lore or kuden pased on to me by an Eight Dan in Shorin ryu.

And, it fits in practice.Pinan Two/Heian One, Bo.
Pinan One, Heian Two,Sai.
Pinan Three, Tuifa { Tonfa.}
Pinan Four{Nunchaku)Double handed movements in Heian esp.
Pinan Five, Heian Five, Ni Cho Kama.

[Rob Alvelais]

Fortunately, members of the Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinko Kai and Shorinkan are members of this list. I would hope that they would reply, since they're in the direct line of Shinken Taira and Shuguro Nakazato, respectively.

From my conversations and own training with someone who was a student of Shinken Taira and Ryusho Sakagami, I don't agree with the assertions contained below. However, perhaps someone more intimately familiar with the teaching and practices in RKHSK and the Shorinkan could shed more light.

Rob



Originally posted by kusanku
The Heian Kata have the same basic stances and hand positioning in them as Taira Kobudo. How much of this is due to Taira Shinken training and teaching at Funakoshi's dojo, is unknown.

The Heians can be done with the weapons mentioned.Were they designed to be done such? Don't know.The techniques are pretty similar to basic ones done in kobudo kata of the Taira system.

Where did the information come from about relation of Pinans to different weapons and animals? It came from Kobayashi Ryu Shorin ryu, from a man who studied on Okinawa with Hanshi Nakazato, to another man who sent Bob McMahon that information on request.

snip

[Tatsu]

Rob A.: I don't know about John's assertions. I do know that in addition to empty-hand forms, separate Kobudo kata are taught in Shorinkan. Shorinkan is my base style after all.

I also know that Soken Hohan trained and trained with Taira Shinken. He had some good things to say about his Kobudo, but he gives the impression that the Seito Kobujutsu might be more real. I remember reading somewhere that Shinken claimed to know like 500 kata, kobudo and empty-hand. Wow. I dunno.

Still, a lot of the kobudo that is seen in modern karate, whether it be Rykyuan or Japanese, is of the Taira Shinken or Matayoshi Kobudo style. How orthodox were those systems in the first place? Again, I dunno, but I bet that regardless of the way Shinken taught Kobudo, senseis that followed introduced variations to his systems methodology and training techs.

Can most folks spar almost all-out, with weapons and be effective? Have you ever witnessed someone proficient with the katana "spar" with a bo expert? I have. So if you can do this stuff fast and effectively, unchoreographed and whatnot, then you are gaining valuable martial knowledge. You can say that your kobudo/kobujutsu training is useful, but useful is a subjective term.

[kusanku]

Well, I could ask Tom Ward and Mr. Ed Bethea, who are the ones from whom I got that information, they just got back from training witrh Hanshi Nakazato on Okinawa.Perhaps they have learned different now.

Anyway, what was asserted is that that information was given me, and I did not make it up.

And that you can do those kata as weapons forms, which is also true.Is that a coincidence or was it by design? Tell you what I think: Some liken kata to a hammer.Some to a fencing tool.Some say it can only be used one way or for one thing.

The way I was taught , and the way I see it, is that kata is like a Swiss Army knife. It is not a hammer, (tournament kumite) and it is not a fencing tool(kihon for phys ed training alone), but it is a multiplex knife with different functions.

One of which can be as a weapons form.

Now,I have been doing Okinawan karate since 1972, various styles, and I can not help but notice that the fundamental stances of most Okinawan karate and kobudo systems( not bnecessarily all of them, but most of them) are the same or similar.Why is this? Karate and kobudo used to be taught as separate arts mostly as well.Yet there is the fundamental similarity.

Some masters of karate say that the kobudo and karate were once one.That perhaps the weapons gave birth to empty handed systems.Others state that they don't know, or its one way or the other way.

We to tell the truth, don't know a lot about the origin of Okinawan karate at all.

Let us put the cards on the table here.Some say the secret techniques of Okinawan karate don't exist, for instance, and never did. But there are photographs of Motobu Choki and Bunei Okuhira practicing them together, techniques taken from kata that I too was shown among many others.Bunei Okuhira was a Shorin ryu master, who I believe introduced the art later to Sweden.Thjere were a shorin and a Goju guy practicing the same 'secret techniques' together. In Okinawa there is a saying, 'There is only one karate.'That used to be true, anyway.World wide its not.

Those secret techniques are also found in Chinese Kungfu, some in Jujitsu, and some in European fighting manuals written up to twelve hundred years ago.Those were armed fighting manuals yet unarmed combat figured into it when you got close and 'came to grips.'

It appears, that at one time, martial arts were taught as complete fighting arts, weapons one part and unarmed another part.Seikichi Uehara says this, and also says, thatthe Okinawan arts are rooted in dance, featured the sword movements as core, and had unamred training first, striking, then sword, then grapplingn based on sword movements.

Some masters say Okinawan dance has nothing to do with karate. Nagamine Shoshin however, linked the two.Was expert in folk dancing himself.says that affected the way he does karate.Says some dances contain karate movements.

One website lists four types of Okinawan dancing, then says the fourth type called I believe Wakanshu Udui, is a type of karate.!?

Things that make you go Hmmmmmm.

I believe kata show the taijutsu or body mechanics on which can be based both unarmed and weapons movements, to defend against attackers armed, unarmed, and multiple.But the kata Kusanku, itsewlf done with two weapons or unarmed, was indeed split into the five pinana, later changed to Heian by Funakoshi in whose dojo Taira Shinken trained and taught kobudo and learned karate.

I believe kata can be done at five different levels, as follows, and this is based on Chinese understanding of the forms of ch'uan fa, and they also have specific weapons forms as well.

One level is a basic level, apparent techniques, block strike kick punch.

Another level is using combined techniques including the above with also grappling or locking and holding techniques.

Another level is using more efficient footwork and timing, which Taika Oyatra calls an advanced timing, to make all the aboive more efficient and effective.

Then there is the use of kyusho which pervades the art at more advanced levels. Kyusho assists in tuite, weapons and its own way.
Yet another level, more fully polished, is to use very advanced timing, to effectuate interception, evasion and unbalancing to control the opponent at and from first contact to finish, starting within one second of initial actiual contact.

Yet another level, is what I call weapons level, using weapons or unarmed, to evade and instantly counter with finishing effect, the opponent thru tai sabaki, ashi sabaki and kyusho jutsu.

Now, the point is made, by Taatsu: Is kobujutsu training the most effective way in which to learn weapons usage? I would say, it depends on which kobujutsu you use. Yamanni Ryu which Rob does, is very effective, as is the kobujutsu taught by Taika Oyata.

The Taira stuff, like the Shotokan Heians, are very basic in approach. This doesn't mean they can't be effective, but they are not seite.

The Ti approach, all seite, is very effective, andthe Shorin ryu I learned uses a seite approach, yet some of the organizations in the US do the Ryukyu Kobudo approach.

I think there are two things going on, maybe more, at once.

I reflet]ct that according to Goju man Glenn Grabow, Masanobu Shinjo on Okinawa told himm that before WWII, the old karate practitioners had a better system, a different system of self defense from the katas, which the younfger ones did not.I gather shinjo had been at a demo of different Goju masters, when two very old men came and did a seisan bunkaiincluding a throw that sent one of them up to the ceiling, that he(Shinjo) had never seen before.

There is a lot of such reports, that I hac]ve collected.I think the trouble is, that sometimes masters only taught very basic bunkai, some not very efficient, and sometimes not at all.Others got shown some real goodies.

Those who got shown or told the goodies are often not believed.

Here's another one.James Wax, apparently the one time nephew in law of Shoshin Nagamine, taught Shorin ryu to my teacher, Pinky Burch, who taught it me.Now, frank Grant also taught Pinky, but he had a fourth dan from Nagamine on Okinawa too.However, Burch taught me , among other things, twenty-seven one shot take out strikes, we'd call them kyusho strikes today,that some tell me, they don't believe in them( they oughta, those things are real)others tell me,Nagamine couldn't have known them, Wax must of made them up(yet they are all from Shorin ryu kata)or learned them from somewhere else(again, the moves are all in Shorin ryu kata), and once I talked to Mike Ritter, then a style head in the US, who often traveled to Okinawa to stay and train in Nagamine's Dojo and whose fist teacher had been James Wax,Mike at least said to me that he had never heard of these.

Mike was a godan at the time, Burch a shodan, I was a gereen belt in karate when shown these in 1972.Burch had been a favorite of Wax's, and said he liked my spirit so he showed me those waza.Was I lucky to get a transmission of some techniques shown very, very few and not dependent on rank?I think so.After all these years, the only other places I saw those waza, have been some Chinese masters, and some Aiki people.Apparently they were fairly advanced.I only learned later that they were all in the kata.

Twenty years later, when my Okinawan Kenpo teacher, who had been a godan under Taika Oyata, showed me a little of what he had been shown, I saw that level of waza again, but in different ways,but when I did the Shorin stuff for him, he narowed his eyes, which meant he wondered where I'd gotten that from.He said, 'Different theory.'

Don't know what he meant there.

All I know is this: After all is said and done, I don't care what anyone else thinks or says, my own experience has shown me that the stuff is real, it works, and I don't think my ex-Marine teachers were the type to lie and say it was taught them and make it up themselves. I am not, either.When I create something based on what I was taught, like the Eight Hands of interception or the Sixty-four hands of counterrattack, I say, these drills I put together, based on some free hand exercises my Kenpo and Shorin ryu teacher respectively, showed me.'

But when I was told about the wepons connection to kata, well, that's different. The Kobayashi guys used different kata with different weapons as training.Is that done on Okinawa? I don't know.Chinto was with sai or kama, gojushiho was done with kama, and I know that some Kenpo guys do Naihanchi with Tekko, or wooden sticks that are hand helsd by rings or strings.I noticed when my Sensei did the Tekko Kata, I think of Ufuchiku, that it looked a little to my eyes like Naihanchi three.

maybe that is not a coincidence.

Maybe Uehara Seikichi is right, maybe all the Okinawan arts are rooted in dance, connected to sword movement and contain grappling and striking and kicking as well.

Having said that, there are lots of unsolved mysteries there.But I think, we need to try to be open minded about them.

Tell you why.After twenty years of training both Kenpo and Shorin ryu,during the second year of whiuch I was shown, yes, some secret techniques, and during the twenty first year, some more with principles to break these out of kata, I realized that,karate was bigger, deeper, and vaster, and less separate and pigeonholed, than I had thought.

I realized it because I was shown techniques of such effectiveness that most people don't even believe these things are real.

They are, though.They are.

Know what this makes me wonder, now?In all seriousness?

If this exists and for twenty years, I had no clue even tomthe effectiveness of waza I had alkready been taught, in kata I had gotten to a high level of performance and had not understood-

What else is out there that I still Don't know?

And if I ask such and such a Master, what are the odds that he will tell me?

He may, or may not.may say one thing to me, another to someone else.Thats in the teaching tradition too, and my own experience as one who Was told some of it, and shown, and taught, while many others were not, says that, don't be too sure you got the whols shooting match.Your gun may be mising bullets or even a firing pin.:D

After all, if we are not sure, we are not sure. How much do and did masters such as Taika Oyata, Seikichi Uehara, and others, Nagamine for instance,know that they 'aren't' telling?

I think there's more.Based on Chinese and Japanese arts that have spilled some beans, and some Okinawan teachers and their amreican students as above, I think there is more.

By the way, jitte or jutte kata, is not I think, a bo kata, it doesn't work as one. Try it with a Jitte however, that's a different matter.:D

[kusanku]

Yet there is a Taiji staff form, said to have ebeen an spear form and fairly old, used to train soldiers once, taught mbyt some of the William C.C. Ch'en clan teachers who also teach me, that does some ways resemble the Jitte kata, although it uses taiji principles and would seem weird to karateka, also a two person version exists.

So maybe as a spear form, with aletered grip, and the taiji staff grip is strange compared to the karate ones,maybe this supposedly eight hundred year old form co opted by later taiji people and suspisciously resembling a form jitte said to be invented by Itosu and I am sure it was,maybe its just a coincidence. Jite itself, works with a jitte, I do know that, as for instance against basic attakcs made with a bo.

I think many of the traditional kobudo kata are done as against a bo, or another bo. Ti forms however may be as against other weapons.Swords poerhaps.Jitte in Japan, one pronged truncheons, were used against swords.In Europe certain knives and similar implements were called Sword-breakers.

I think we need to see martial arts and Ryukyuan ones in particular in terms of martial culture world wide, in Asia and Europe, since sailors from both often docked in Okinawa.

And I think it makes all the sense in the world, and is not in the least silly, that one set of excercises could be used to teach all the levels of unarmed and armed defense, at least at a basic level.

I do know this: Every time I see a back stance, I think of some grinning Okinawan, perhaps Funakoshi, teaching that to Japanese who taught it to the world. That stance with open back leg, nailing the one who takes it in position for a snapping or thrusting kick to that back leg and knocking the one who takes it right on their fundament.

Having done that to more than a few people myself,I remember the astonished looks on their faces as they sit down, not hurt, but stunned to be sitting down.The looks that say, what just happend, why am I in fighting stance from the waist up but down on the ground?This isn't supposed to happen!

They just got hit with one those secret waza that don't exist, yet are in the Okinawan kata regardless what style.

Now, a person can be a world class athlete, say in Shotokan or some such system, and can maybe whop you a goot one.That however does nothing to invalidate the efectiveness of the above technique nor to make valid the back stance, which for some reason, Shoto-ka no longer use in kumite, they ain't all that dumb either, are they?Someone figured out you can't fight with a foot in the bucket.:D

Now someone ought to tell those TaeKwondo styles that stiull use that stance to fight from.:D

I remember someone asking a shorin dude, back about seventy something, about defending against a back leg rooted attack, he replied without thinking, front kick the rear leg, down they go.

Harder to do against Chinese versions that turn the rear foot forward or nearly so.

When I see a system using Japanese KARATE stances, heh heh, I think, well, skill levels being equal, the Okinawan stylist gonna do a number on them.If said stylist understands usage of his or her own style that is.

So:I don't think, we can say, this or that, isn't so, unless you can show where say, matsumura says it ain't, and even then, maybe that was for the untrained or uninitiated. I remember Choki Motobu wrote that karate wasn't for use in battlefield or a ring, yet he used it in the ring against a boxer.I don't think it was a lie or a contradiction, more like, 'Don't try this at home!'Since most karateka against mostr professional boxers get trashed big time.

If you do Okinawan karate, and figght a world class Shotokan champion, who is gonna win?Nine times out of ten, that Shotochamp.

Anyone want to take on Yoshida, that Olyimpic Judo guy that just made the Gracies eat mat?:D

You can have him, too!

But if your training in those Okinawan systems is at that level, world class Olympic Level, then, that may be another story. best man wins and all that.

Itosu beat a judoka, Motobu a Boxer, and Kyan a giuant sumo wreslter with a particularly nasty trick he apparently devised on the spot, but maybe not.Yabu beat Motobu with a two handed takedown and hold from tuite in kata, and Motobu's brother did a dance and tossed Chioki Sensei all over the place like the proverbial rag doll, so 'tis said,and finally,

How much else is out there?

From 1972 to 1992, I though I knew what existed and found out I didn't.I too, thought it had to do with athletic skill, repetition, form, speed and power.Oh, sure, some vital points, sure, locks and holds and throws, a judoka too am I,but I thought, all that stuff about the old men defeating multiple armed attackers is a lot of hooey.

Then I felt the power of the Ryukyu Kempo my teacher learned from Taika Oyata.And I knew, it was all true.Then I saqw tapes of Gozo Shioda, at seventy, Taika at sixty, and Cheng Man Ching at seventy five. And I saw it.

It exists.

If they showed us that on tape for the world to see, what else exists?

I tink maybe dere is more.:D

[Tatsu]

John: I believe there is more out there than we can ever learn. Although much old-school knowledge has been lost or morphed into a pale representation of the original, there are still a few knowledgeable and proficient MAs instructors; traditional or otherwise. The question is how do you know if what you are learning is adequate for self-preservation? Can your instructor explain his reasoning behind the use of a "modern" training format or a traditional one? It's hard to discern.

You asked if any of us thought they could take a cat like Yoshida on. An Olympic gold medal caliber athlete? Who can say for sure? 9 times out of 10 the guy who "fights" (pseudo or not) for a living will win. Especiall tough world champs! Heck, most pro athletes in any sport would probably give the average dojo-rat a good whuppin'! Great physical conditioning helps to increase ones success rate in things physical. Now, if it was on the street, and you had the element of surprise on your hands, who's to say what could happen. I definitely would have to defend myself in that situation, and I doubt a great MAs like Yoshida would start a fight with me. I'd never enter a pro-sporting event thinking I could beat a world-class athlete at their own game. That would be foolish.

As for all the basic stances being the same, I can't agree. Kobayashi and Shobayashi Shorin use fairly deep stances. Matsubayashi uses shallower stances, but still deeper and more straight-legged ( the rear leg) than Matsumura Seito. This is from schools of the same Okinawan Ryu, forget those "karates" of Japanese, Korean or other lineages.

The backstance as you detailed, is not like our T-Stance whatsoever, although they can appear to be similar. We use no "back-stance" per se. Weight distribution in the common back stance is (front leg)80%-(back leg) 20%. It is really long and makes for slow movement and transitions. Your balance side-to-side and to the front is hampered and your rear leg is susceptible to sweeps and kicks. This stance in Matsumura orthodox is more 60-40. This allows for kicking with the lead leg, or as GJJ guys do, as a knee-stomp distraction/unbalancing tech to close the distance and get in tuite range. It also allows for changes in weight distribution between your legs. Ashi and Tai Sabaki (foot and body movement/change) are facilitated. That TKD, Shotokan deep stance is not as efficient and reliable. You guys know that Funakoshi changed the stances for a reason. "Justu" became "Do". The Chinese influenced Okinawan art of self-defense was becoming standardized. To-De Jutsu was being transformed into Karate-Do. So, I don't see the basic stances as being the same at all. I learned this later in life when I had a chance to train with a very proficient Karate Jutsu instructor. What he's taught me is very good, in my estimation, and the "realest" I've yet encountered.

We're getting off track, and hijacking the thread. Whatever you're training for make sure you respect yourself and what you do. If what you do doesn't seem "real" then don't second guess your intuition. You owe that to yourself. If you respect the tradition and the fact that you're an ambassador of a strong tradition, you can't go wrong. BTW John, I don't doubt your experience or knowledge. I have trained in a similar manner as you (but only a couple of decades compared to your 40 years) with many of the same connections, and agree with a lot of your posts. I know for sure that a major school of Shorin, Kobayashi-Shorinkan, uses both empty hand and weapons kata for kobudo training. My first sensei was a student of Hanshi Nakazato. I understand your take.

[Genkidokan]

I would like to offer to you that if you were to take a serious look into the study of movement and motion, you would have to come to the conclusion that all movement and motion is the same regardless of whether it is empty handed, or with a weapon in possession.

The human body moves the same no matter if you are American, Canadian, Irish, Portuguese, Japanese, Swedish, or South American. Whether you are pretending to be a monkey, eagle, tiger, mantis, snake, crane or dragon, the human body moves the same.

It does not matter if you study Matsubayashi-Ryu, Goju-ryu, American Kenpo, Ninjutsu, Judo, Tai Chi Chuan, Ba Gua Zhang, Kosho Shorei Kempo, or even Tae Kwon Do; The Human body moves the same.

Therefore it does not matter if you practice your forms with or without a weapon, the human body moves the same. To study the movement and motion of the human body is to understand it. Understanding how the body moves, allows you to focus on that movement and not on technique. When an attacker attacks you, your mind does not say “Uh Oh, he is trying to use Mae-geri Kekomi”.

Knowing how the attackers body is moving allows for you to manipulate it. Once you manipulate it, you can create an environment where you can predict his next movement light years before he can, and this allows you to be compassionate, destructive, or more to your attacker.

Whether or not it is the attacker or you that has the weapon is not the issue. It is the motion involved that is important. You will not get this understanding by studying morote uke and attempting to create a myriad of applications. You will not attain this level of wisdom by repetitively practicing the Heian/Pinan forms.

You will only attain this wisdom by studying motion.

After you study motion, and the principles and concepts pertaining to motion, then will you be able to take the forms and bring them to the next level beyond physical motion.

Then you will be free. Until then worrying about Bunkai, or practicing a form with or without weapons, will be like a finger pointing to the moon. “Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.”

Bruce had a nice quote and I think it is most useful is this context don’t you?

Sincerely

Jason Ward
Barrie, Ontario Canada

[kusanku]

Originally posted by Tatsu
[B]John: I believe there is more out there than we can ever learn. [quote]

I believe this to be true,as well. My Kenpo Sensei once said, he thought no one had the whole puzzle, though some had more than others did.I got to go with that one. What interests me though, is that even if some people have some of the puzzle, they seem so quick to deny the other pieces' possible existence.As though any one of us actually knew the whole thing or even what the whole thing looked like.And of course, we do not.

[quote]Although much old-school knowledge has been lost or morphed into a pale representation of the original, there are still a few knowledgeable and proficient MAs instructors; traditional or otherwise.

Yes, there are. Both many traditional masters who pass on what they were taught, and a number of skilled synthesizers and or innovators, and some of the Ko Do Sensei who teach ancient ways of combat.


The question is how do you know if what you are learning is adequate for self-preservation?

Well, my two main karate instructors tested their ways out for real, one as a bouncer, the other in a somewhat unconventional way that today would translate into, well,challenge matches.And both were only too happy to demonstrate their stuff's effectiveness to anyone who cared to visit.We senior students were wise and let the challenges come from outside. We had to train every night with the instructor as it was.Many people who thought they knew karate flew into walls and were knocked unconscious inside one second.My shorin instructor actually used to do demos sometimes in the Inner City, and would challenge someone from the audience to try to stab him with their own knife, and would take it wzaway from them without hurting them .He showed me the scar he got when one guy was a little faster than expected, but took that one away as well.Plus I used to assist him as a bouncer.

I had a fairly rough growing up period with many encounters with the violent, with me as the intended vivtim. I know more than most do, what really works and what doesn't.

Then there was a Judo instructor I assisted, Phil Minton, who used to train self defense techniques against Prison Guards at the Terre Haute Federal Pen.if he could not make it work on every one of them, he canned it. If he could, he taught it.Man knows more about sd techniques than anyone I personally know, far as different techniques and sher number is concerned.He discovered some interesting things like the eyebrow ridge takedown on bald headed weight lifter types, works every time.No hair to grab, had to grab something, and fast> Straight up under, hook with fingers, over and back in a circular arc, and down they go.Just have to get angle on it first.


Can your instructor explain his reasoning behind the use of a "modern" training format or a traditional one? It's hard to discern.


Well, here again, I was lucky in my teachers.They all could.If something didn't work for them in real use they threw it out, but they looked until they found a system each, where they didn't have to throw anything out.It had al benn thrown out for them by Their instructors.:D


You asked if any of us thought they could take a cat like Yoshida on.

Merely as you know, a reality check. I sure couldn't, but if he was attacking me, unlikely event,. I would have to try. Probably get a weapon, huh?Barehanded, little to no chance here.



An Olympic gold medal caliber athlete? Who can say for sure? 9 times out of 10 the guy who "fights" (pseudo or not) for a living will win. Especiall tough world champs! Heck, most pro athletes in any sport would probably give the average dojo-rat a good whuppin'!

Its true!That is why, the way my two karate main sensei trained us, it was not average at all. Thousands or kihon reps a night, sometimes over thirty kata reps, nit picky as Hell and as though life itself depended on it, and they knew it might.But we trained not for sport karate, but for goshinjutsu karate.You knew if you could hit hard by hitting solid objects like bags, armor, pads and makiwara, then you knew you could get there by perfecting, relatively, two man drills where you angle out or in, or go past or through the block, and you knew you could evade because you drilled that and if you flumked, the opponent drilled you.:D

Put all the elements together, and you had an effective syste,. What put them together? Kata done as if they are in combat. Fast, with balance and power and speed and breath coordinated and if you made a mistake you kept on going because there were no second chances.YUsing that mental concept, you were more prepared when actually attacked, which in our case did actually happen not infrequently when much younger. hasn't for a while, now, thank God.


Great physical conditioning helps to increase ones success rate in things physical.

Absolutely.


Now, if it was on the street, and you had the element of surprise on your hands, who's to say what could happen.

Also very true. A hundred years ago, young American and British Ladies carried long Hatpins to fend off ruffians and knew how to use them. Very effectively, too.


I definitely would have to defend myself in that situation, and I doubt a great MAs like Yoshida would start a fight with me.

As I've told some world class competitor friends, I have never had one of their kind of athletes, attack me. Its also been noted that when at a tournament some of them get into it for real, its wild roundhouse swings.Like boxers slapping each other, maybe they know how serious it would be otheerwise?:-)


I'd never enter a pro-sporting event thinking I could beat a world-class athlete at their own game. That would be foolish.

Having been a Brown Belt level Judo competitor who had seminars with some Olympic types, nor would I.Talk about steam rollers.


As for all the basic stances being the same, I can't agree.

I meant, as the kobudo systems they mostly use.



Kobayashi and Shobayashi Shorin use fairly deep stances. Matsubayashi uses shallower stances, but still deeper and more straight-legged ( the rear leg) than Matsumura Seito.

Done all four a bit.Agree except that Matsubayashi stances become more natural as training advances.Straight back leg zenkutsu is used only to prop against a frontal assault, in actual movement, its more fluid than that and usually isn't used at all.


This is from schools of the same Okinawan Ryu, forget those "karates" of Japanese, Korean or other lineages.

Again, this is at the basic level, say the first ten to twenty years.:D When advanced techniques in all styles, become more natural, more upright and more fluid.Or lower and more fluid, depending.


The backstance as you detailed, is not like our T-Stance whatsoever, although they can appear to be similar. We use no "back-stance" per se.

Teiji dachi is fine, so is renoji dachi. Not back stances but natural stances that enable weight transfer thru arms into target and also tai sabaki and ashi sabaki.Body turning and footwrok.


Weight distribution in the common back stance is (front leg)80%-(back leg) 20%.

I am sure you meant to reverse that, Also, in more modern back stances, its more like fifty fifty, though in an awkward manner, as veridfied by experiemtns using two bathroom scales.Cat stance however, can be 0 to ten percent front leg, one hundred to ninety on back.


It is really long and makes for slow movement and transitions. Your balance side-to-side and to the front is hampered and your rear leg is susceptible to sweeps and kicks.

I concur with your findings here.Verified by knocking the daylights out of numerous would be wariors in back stances.:D



This stance in Matsumura orthodox is more 60-40. This allows for kicking with the lead leg, or as GJJ guys do, as a knee-stomp distraction/unbalancing tech to close the distance and get in tuite range. It also allows for changes in weight distribution between your legs. Ashi and Tai Sabaki (foot and body movement/change) are facilitated.

Matsumura Seito has efficient stance and footwork indeed, as does Matsubayashi, especially when advanced levels are reached in either or both.


That TKD, Shotokan deep stance is not as efficient and reliable. You guys know that Funakoshi changed the stances for a reason. "Jutsu" became "Do". The Chinese influenced Okinawan art of self-defense was becoming standardized. To-De Jutsu was being transformed into Karate-Do. So, I don't see the basic stances as being the same at all.

Again;Basic stances of Shotookan and Taira Kobudo as I have seen it, are the same. Basic stances of Okinawan Kenpo and Matayoshi kobudo, are the same. But different from the above. Basic stances of Matsubayashi ryu and some of their kobudo are also the same, more natural. Yammane Ryu that I have seen looks more like a Japanese bojutsu with really fluid footwork and very natural indeed.Looks very effective for actual use against multiple assailants.Is there a karate style with footwork like that?Matsu karate, both kinds, approach it sometimes at a high level.Not necesarily at basic levels though.Nothing could.


I learned this later in life when I had a chance to train with a very proficient Karate Jutsu instructor. What he's taught me is very good, in my estimation, and the "realest" I've yet encountered.

I hear he's good from a sixth dan Kobayashi Ryu who has trained with Lindsey sensei. Others are as well, Hayes Sensei of Shobayashi Ryu, Taika Oyata's people and some of the really good Matsubayashi ryu people. I was as I said, very lucky in my teachers.:-)


We're getting off track, and hijacking the thread.

Not really. I was part of the transmission of the original information to the author of the above referenced article. That's why I commented.:DSo I can say what I want.:D



Whatever you're training for make sure you respect yourself and what you do. If what you do doesn't seem "real" then don't second guess your intuition. You owe that to yourself.

I tried many ways before finding or stumbling or lucking into what I finally found. My stuff is real. Of that, there is no doubt. Its a little too real in fact so much of it I never or rarely mention and never share.Some that stuff is dangerous times three.


If you respect the tradition and the fact that you're an ambassador of a strong tradition, you can't go wrong.

I'm just this guy, see?:DI stayed around longer than the other students, trained harder for more years, so finally, I got the stuff handed to me.I share what I have because so many people train for so many years and are never shown or see any of it at all.I figured, what the heck, share some basics at least.



BTW John, I don't doubt your experience or knowledge. I have trained in a similar manner as you (but only a couple of decades compared to your 40 years) with many of the same connections, and agree with a lot of your posts.

I had a feeling that you had.:D


I know for sure that a major school of Shorin, Kobayashi-Shorinkan, uses both empty hand and weapons kata for kobudo training.

Aha, confirmation. Yes, they do, I trained with these guys for fourteen years and if we went through the kata once with weapons, we did it a thousand times.I remember taking Taikyoku and Fuklyu Gata and doing them with all the weapons.

It seems that the weapons were used with empty hand kata to teach proper empty hand function and movement, moreso than really blazing kobudo, the traditional kobudo kata, of which it seems there were scores or more even, were done for the weapons training per se, but when intro'ing the weapons, after basic manipulations, the basic kata were used to learn to handle them.

[quote]My first sensei was a student of Hanshi Nakazato. I understand your take.[/quote

You were fortunate, too.Good solid karate, that.

[kusanku]

Originally posted by Genkidokan
[B]I would like to offer to you that if you were to take a serious look into the study of movement and motion, you would have to come to the conclusion that all movement and motion is the same regardless of whether it is empty handed, or with a weapon in possession.

And this, too, is true.I haver taken such a look, had to whether I liked it or not.After twenty years Okinawan Kenpo, mon teacher slices a shuto into my arm and drops me to the floor in agony, this began a several session eye opening session.Weapons and empty hand are one.


The human body moves the same no matter if you are American, Canadian, Irish, Portuguese, Japanese, Swedish, or South American. Whether you are pretending to be a monkey, eagle, tiger, mantis, snake, crane or dragon, the human body moves the same.

It does not matter if you study Matsubayashi-Ryu, Goju-ryu, American Kenpo, Ninjutsu, Judo, Tai Chi Chuan, Ba Gua Zhang, Kosho Shorei Kempo, or even Tae Kwon Do; The Human body moves the same.

It works the same;it does not move the same. Just a quibble.:-)


Therefore it does not matter if you practice your forms with or without a weapon, the human body moves the same.

Your body will move the same with as without a weapon. A Tae Kwon Do practitioner, depending on the style, will not move as a Matsubayashi practitioner does, or I sure hope he won't, anyway, there are some who do a pretty close imitation at that.


To study the movement and motion of the human body is to understand it.

Thus, the kata. When one day, you come out of the dance, you become the dance.Then you call the tune.:D



Understanding how the body moves, allows you to focus on that movement and not on technique.

Movement becomes technique.Technique dissolves into movement which dissolves intoi unity where the atack and the response are one, with mushin, no mindedness, as prerequisite.



When an attacker attacks you, your mind does not say “Uh Oh, he is trying to use Mae-geri Kekomi”.

By the time you think that, you got kicked seven seconds before.By the clock.:D


Knowing how the attackers body is moving allows for you to manipulate it. Once you manipulate it, you can create an environment where you can predict his next movement light years before he can, and this allows you to be compassionate, destructive, or more to your attacker.

Quite correct, The highest level of Okinawan martial arts according to Seikichi Uehara, is to defeat the attacker while doing him no harm whatever. Otherwise, he says, if you start out to fight, dig two graves, one for him and one for you, because, sonner or later, you will need both.


Whether or not it is the attacker or you that has the weapon is not the issue.

If I have the weapon, the attack may not happen.:DSo it could be the issue.



It is the motion involved that is important. You will not get this understanding by studying morote uke and attempting to create a myriad of applications. You will not attain this level of wisdom by repetitively practicing the Heian/Pinan forms.

If you meditatively apply insight to either excercise, you will and can, and by so doing, you become able to spontaneously and withhou thought create applications as needed. However, when someone asks a basic question such as 'what can be the applications of a morote uke, or what can be applications of the Pinan or Heian forms/' I try to oblige by answering at a level that the question is asked at.

never mistake what someone says as all they know or could say.

'Not all a man knows can be disclosed; not all that can be disclosed can be regarded as timely; and not all that is timely can be regarded as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.'Old tradition.

Kata is the study of motion, it is a dance, it is a meditation and a prayer, but few see it that way.


You will only attain this wisdom by studying motion.

Some ancients said wisdom was founded in mathematics and geometry, others said it was founded in medicine. Some said 'the essence of wisdom is the fear of God.'Some say you must study motion, even the motion of the stars.Its a matter of the different perspectives of people.I don't say one of these is not truer than the others.I believe one is, but will not say which at this time. See?


After you study motion, and the principles and concepts pertaining to motion, then will you be able to take the forms and bring them to the next level beyond physical motion.

Yet the forms, be they basic or kata, must be practiced and mastered in order to properly study motion. One cannot study it totally in the abstract.The forms are templates used to teach proper motion and mechanics.One must start the climb to the top of the mountain at the foot of the mountain.


Then you will be free. Until then worrying about Bunkai, or practicing a form with or without weapons, will be like a finger pointing to the moon. “Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.”

Here I must disagree. The form and the bunkai of the form, which really means breakdown,contain all that stuff.I don't see any way to master the porinciples underlying all that technique, without first mastering technique.Bruce Lee spent years on mastering three forms.

Now, show me someone who is a master of martial arts who never spent years on basics and forms, I may agree with you, but I never ever saw one or heard of one who did. I believe you did yourself. Sometimes, if we want to build a lader for others to climb, and stand ourselves on the top step or near it, we kick out all the steps below and say, 'come on up!'That won't work.


Bruce had a nice quote and I think it is most useful is this context don’t you?

See, that's what I mean. Bruce Lee used many quotes, and usually wasn't the originator of any of them, he was a Philosophy major and was often quoting others, Which quote do you mean?If its , 'Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, ' which is a quote from another person btw, then how can you absorb anything before learning an entire art, to decide what is useful or not before first learning then understanding the kata, is an exercise in throwing out the baby with the bathwatrer.

If your system already contains what is needed, why reinvent the wheel?Bruce Lee wasn't taught all of Wing Chun, so he made up his deficienceis from other systems. I applaud that. But he didn't have all the answers.had he been around a couple more decades, he would have been here to see the Kung Fu and Karate masters spill a few more beans. I have often remarked that today, I know some things Bruce Lee would have killed to lean, figuratively speaking.Not cause I'm anything, but because I was in the right place at the right time, to learn.He died in 1973, one year after I started formal karate training, much inspired by his writings.

BTW, ever wondered why Bruce pooh poohed the death touch, but has a chart in the Tao of JKD of the thirty-six Shaolin Death points? I had it translated, its the one in Chinese.

Sometimes Briuce Lee said one thing, then did another.Its a teaching tradition, you know.

'Sifu- does death touch exist? No ,Child.It is boiut a myth.'Sifu- what;s that chart for?' Er, Nothing. Nothing at all.Give it to me now.

There's a reason for that, too.

Some of the stuff that is there to be learend is deadly and should never fall into the wrong hands. I shuddered when they published some, more when shown some.I almost wish I could forget some of that information.

Anyway though Jason, thank you most sincerely for your contribution. I believe traditional Okinawan and Chinese arts are pretty much about motion training and that is one of the deepest secrets, itself pretty potentially dangerous as far as hand to hand fighting is concerned.

[Tatsu]

In regards to the "backstance" I was explaining, I did get it backwards. I meant that the majority of your weight is usually on the rear leg. So 20-80 (modern) and 40-60 (traditional). My bad. It's the booze, haha! I was giving the weight distribution ratio for zenkutsu dachi (forward stance), or shizentai dachi/pinan dachi (natural walking/fighting stance). The back stance is the opposite. Oops.

Sensei Hayes is very good friends with Sensei Lindsey. Hayes Shinshii is an awesome fighter! As you may know my Sensei is an 8th Dan under Yuichi Kuda and was head of his org.. Oyata and Kuda were both students of Hanshi Nakamura Shigeru. I have seen them in many pics with Nakamura. I still am unsure about the "Kenpo" aspect of Ryukyuan Karate. Some tend to think it more modern and sparring oriented than the old-ways. The stances are also deeper. Still as a free-fighting art I hear it is outstanding. Very similar to Kobayashi Shorin. I can't say for sure, but I know you know what you're talking about, so I'll accept your analysis of its efficacy.

Anyway, you make good points. All the views expressed were very solid. Happy New Year all...

[kusanku]

Okinawan Kenpo was a modern(1953) attempt to return to some aspects of Chinese martial arts, but was created as an unrestricted( because of bogu but has some rules about hitting some places unprotected) free sparring system with kata as the core of training, and kihon the basis.'The more you sweat in kihon and kata, the less you bleed in kumite, ' is a saying we had.

The Old ways that Kenpo taught and teaches, had to do with attitude, way of viewing kata ansd waza, and use of self defense techniques.

You do kata the same way you fight. Fast and hard and fluid.Instead of learning four different sets of waza like many styles, one for kihon, one for the bag and makiwara, one for self defense techniques and one for sparring, you learn one way to do all the techniques. You punch in a fight like you punch in kata, in kihon like you hit the bag. Once this is understood, then progress is rapid.

Later, the advanced training shows you how to use the subtler movements in kata and kihon, to create efficient techniques of self defense not dependent entirely upon your own power.

These waza depend upon an attacker using the mentality that he is coming in on you and doesn't think you can hurt him, so you move just slightly and he gets hurt as badly as his attack intended you to.Whups! walked right into it.

If someone is not attacking you, these waza won't work, simple as that. If he is wary, back you go to basic sparring and such.

Thats kind of the lowdown on it.Hope that is helpful. The weapons combat is the same way, by the way.

[the Khazar Kid]

Every day I practise the five Pyung Ahn forms (continually as one sequence) with sharp punchdaggers in each hand.

Jesse Peters