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BrianV
28th August 2000, 00:50
Hi All,
I have been reviewing the Kata videotape I recieved from Mitch, and I have been wondering what your perceptions have been.

The Nage No Kata and Katame no Kata are pretty much as I was taught and still teach my students, but the Kime no Kata is a different matter.

The Hara Gatame is executed differently than what I percieved as the classical approach. Is this the general consensus, or is what is on the tape the same as you remember?

The main difference is in how the tori locks the arm to the hara. Case in point would be the knife thrust to the stomach.

In the video, Tori moves the Uke along the same line of motion which the Uke is already in.

In the method I was taught, the Tori recieves the action of the Uke, pivots on his left knee, ending up facing the same direction as the Uke. Then the action of the Uke is redirected 90 degrees to the side as Tori applies the Hara Gatame.

This is pretty much the main difference. Is this traditional Judo method, or a modern derivation that has been adopted?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

MarkF
28th August 2000, 10:30
As far as I know, it is pretty classic for idori, if that is what you mean. Possibly those with the beer gut will be at an advantage.;)

Seriously, the motion is basically the same standing although the stomach would not be used to apply it, but motion wise, it looks exactly like the Kodokan does it.

BrianV
28th August 2000, 15:54
Mark,
It just goes to prove that no matter how many times I research, there is always something to learn.

Of course, you were right.

I just looked through my library, and sure enough, from Kawaishi's edition "the seven katas of Judo" through to Parulski's, (quit making that noise):), Black Belt Judo,
The moves are as portrayed.

I have to admit, though, I like our rendition better. (Now that'll make the traditionalists blood boil).

The only recourses I have are;
1. It's how my Sensei taught it to me,

2. We ARE a progressive Jujutsu style, so a little license is a given.:)

By the way, the Goshin Jutsu Kata on the tape sent by Mitch,
I have never seen this form before and really enjoyed it. Have you ever performed it??

Anyone else?

Have a great day.

MarkF
29th August 2000, 09:02
I teach goshin jutsu as it is as close to modern as you will get, but not every single one. It is called Kodokan Goshin Jutsu, and was put together in 1956, I believe, by the Kodokan, as it does appear in Kodokan Judo. This one Kano may have touched on, but he was definitely out of the picture by then.

MarkF
29th August 2000, 09:04
BTW: I just ordered a paperback of Kawaishi's book, the one with Harrison's translation. A book collector, I am not:)

Chuck Clark
29th August 2000, 19:17
Mark,

The Kodokan Goshin jutsu no kata was developed mainly by Kenji Tomiki sensei. It is largely based on a combination of his judo knowledge and the aikibudo he learned from Ueshiba. The kata was accepted by the Kodokan kata committee in 1957, I think. They usually do not give him credit for the kata. Politics...

MarkF
31st August 2000, 10:06
Hi, Chuck,
You are correct, Sir! I only meant the political end of it, as it was published in the 1958 (I will check the date) publication of Kodokan Judo where goshin jutsu appeared as a KJ kata for the first time. If one does follow through with this kata, the similarities to aikido, shodokan, are obvious.

As a side note, the Kodokan is very selfish when it comes to credit, but when it does, it is the same as saying Kodokan Judo was written by Prof. Kano with "contributions" of a page-full of others. What horror to think a man with the training in aikibudo/aikido would be a source of such things!. Then there is the story of how Kano stole the hiden mokuroku, etc. from Sokaku Takeda.:redhot:

Mitch Saret
1st September 2000, 05:26
As far as how the katas are performed, when I had to leave my Judo dojo I was just starting to learn the nage no kata. The others were all a mystery to me. When I had a chance to get this tape I jumped at it. I also bought "Formal Techniques" to go along with it. Insights into the forms I will glean from the reat of you!

MarkF
1st September 2000, 07:49
Hi, Mitch,
The one part of the tape I like is the demonstartion of waza, with video of the throws by certain big guys in shiai, and how they differ. There were/are three of these guys, all Japanese, who are pictured many times: Yamashita, Saito, and Masaki. These are big guys, but their techniques are what won for them, not size. Masaki in particular is amazing to watch because he has this non-verbalized "kiai" which could kill. Most of these came from major shiai such as "All Japan," etc., but they certainly are not what I am accustomed to seeing when watching them. The technique is near flawless and it just shows big guys have more than most think. As Geesink proved, and these three even more, that waza helps, and is not necessarily the size which wins in the old openweight category. Of course, the smaller ones have to be better than perfent to win, but it is not impossible.

Too bad the openweight category was removed from international competition. Although I see mostly one big guy against another doing the same failed shoulder throw over and over again with the hope the judges will see their attempted offense as better than the opponent's, it is tiresome to watch. These guys are like the little ones; a much varied collection of techniques.

Aaah, for the good old days.

Mark

Mitch Saret
13th September 2000, 05:34
Hi guys! My ISP had a crash and I was out for 2 weeks...e-budo withdrawal big time!

What I liked about the waza portion was the demo of the technique and then to the shiai, seeing it in action. You watch the match, even with the big guys, and all of a sudden BAM! out of nowhere comes the nage! Gotta luv it!

Yamantaka
14th September 2000, 00:48
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BrianV
[B]
"By the way, the Goshin Jutsu Kata on the tape sent by Mitch,
I have never seen this form before and really enjoyed it. Have you ever performed it??"

YAMANTAKA : Me and my son were privileged to be the only non-judoka to be invited to a Goshin Jutsu no Kata course with Franco Bonacorsi Sensei (Rokudan), in Salvador.
My son (aikido sensei) participated and I taped the whole proceeding. At the very beginning, Bonacorsi Sensei pointed to my son and said that he probably would learn easier since the kata was created by a judoka and aikido master, Tomiki Kenji Sensei. It was a very interesting and fascinating course and we quite enjoyed it.
There was another course by Bonacorsi Sensei about Katame no Kata. He was very good and his ground grappling techniques were quite relaxed and agressive, definitely not kata-like.

To Saret Sensei :
Thank you again for your tape. I saw again the Itsutsu no Kata which I saw, for the first time, in Japan in the 70's. It does not ressembles judo and sometimes when the yudansha open and raise their arms, it looks like a dream...
Best keiko
Yamantaka

MarkF
14th September 2000, 08:11
Originally posted by Yamantaka:


To Saret Sensei :
Thank you again for your tape. I saw again the Itsutsu no Kata which I saw, for the first time, in Japan in the 70's. It does not ressembles judo and sometimes when the yudansha open and raise their arms, it looks like a dream...
Best keiko
Yamantaka


Of the Itsutsu no kata, the Kodokan says: "The five techniques in this kata are known only by number. The first two resemble jujutsu techniques, but the appearance of the other three, while intriguing, is unlike anything seen in jujutsu. The graceful movements are evocable by the motion of water, the heavenly bodies, and other natural forces. The kata is considered unfinished."

M. Kawaishi says: "Itsutsu no kata is the first of the superior katas. It represented, for Jigoro Kano, who created it, the "heart" even of judo.

"It constitutes the synthesis of all the fundamental forms of tai-sabaki. But beyond this appearance, the Itsutsu no kata is meant to illustrate the correspondence, the communion of these basic forms of Judo with the great cosmic principles of harmony and universal equilibrium in their continuity and their cyclic alternation."

Well, Ubaldo, is this what you saw? I had never seen this kata, nor did any teacher of mine know it. I had basically agreed with the Kodokan that it was unfinished and left it at that.

I will agree that it may contain basic forms of tai-sabaki, but the cosmic principles?

From the translation of EJ Harrison, we get these basics:
1)Direct Push

2)Evasion

3)Centripetal and Centrifugal forces

4)Flux and Reflux

5)Principle of the Void or of inertia

"These general principles correspond respectively to the qualities of will, suppleness, mastery, and rapidity of adaption."--M. Kawaishi

With the Olympics about to begin, and Mitch returning to the fold :wave: , does this or should this play a role in shiai? To me, it seems to be summed up well by Kawaishi, and we are given the basic and honest definition of judo. This may or may not play a role in competitive judo today, but the final quote is, well, judo. Without this, judoka in Sydney for the next two or three weeks, must give a do or die effort to istill this very basic principle, the one called "Judo."

Mark

BTW: Ray, thank you very much for the email. I am not ignoring you, I have just been incredibly busy. I will respond soon.

Yamantaka
14th September 2000, 13:42
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]Originally posted by Yamantaka:
"Of the Itsutsu no kata, the Kodokan says: "The five techniques in this kata are known only by number. The first two resemble jujutsu techniques, but the appearance of the other three, while intriguing, is unlike anything seen in jujutsu. The graceful movements are evocable by the motion of water, the heavenly bodies, and other natural forces. The kata is considered unfinished."
M. Kawaishi says: "Itsutsu no kata is the first of the superior katas. It represented, for Jigoro Kano, who created it, the "heart" even of judo."
"It constitutes the synthesis of all the fundamental forms of tai-sabaki. But beyond this appearance, the Itsutsu no kata is meant to illustrate the correspondence, the communion of these basic forms of Judo with the great cosmic principles of harmony and universal equilibrium in their continuity and their cyclic alternation."
Well, Ubaldo, is this what you saw? I had never seen this kata, nor did any teacher of mine know it. I had basically agreed with the Kodokan that it was unfinished and left it at that.
I will agree that it may contain basic forms of tai-sabaki, but the cosmic principles?"
From the translation of EJ Harrison, we get these basics:
1)Direct Push
2)Evasion
3)Centripetal and Centrifugal forces
4)Flux and Reflux
5)Principle of the Void or of inertia"

YAMANTAKA : Hello, Mark!
Yes, that's what I saw. About "cosmic principles" I really don't know. It depends on the intention of Kano Sensei and we are not on his mind.
But the Kata is very intriguing and extremely beautiful. I heard it was unfinished but the part I saw demonstrated, in Japan and in Saret Sensei's video, does not give that impression. It's relaxed, powerful and extremely elegant. One of the movements is very interesting : Nage and Uke run into one another. At the last moment, Nage drops and rolls against uke's legs. Uke carried by his momentum, loses his equilibrium and falls to the mat in a kind of flight. You saw that happen in football and soccer games, when two players are running together and suddenly one of them gives a small push with his body in the other player's body and ...swoosh!...there he goes, up and down.
If you can get the tape from Saret Sensei, take a look! You'll love it!
Good Keiko
Yamantaka

pboylan
14th September 2000, 18:25
Um, just a few words about Itsusu No Kata. It's not lost, and it's not unfinished, Kano Shihan didn't create it, and the forms do have names. It's one of the high level kata of Tenjin Shin'you Ryu. A lot of the other kata in Judo come from TSR and other koryu. Watching the Osaka TSR group do some of their kata was a real eye opener, since they do the large chunks of the Nage No Kata, but lots faster and more agressively than it is done in the Kodokan.

Peter Boylan

MarkF
15th September 2000, 09:42
Hi, Peter,
I don't think anyone said it was lost, nor did anyone, except the "political end" of the Kodokan say it was unfinished. I just quoted from the books.

As far as this kata existing in tenjin shinyo ryu, that may well be true. Kano held teaching licenses from this and kito ryu. Most atemiwaza is also from tenjin shinyo. There has never been a doubt about this.

It is only said that Kano didn't name them, but others have,

I. Principle of concentration and energy, and of action (direct push)

II. Principle of reaction and of non- resistence (evasion)

III. Cylclic principle of the circle or of the whirlwind (centripetal and centrifugal forces)

IV. Principle of the alternation of the pendulum (flux and reflux)

V. Princple of the Void or enertia

If you do know who created this kata, and exactly what they were called other than this, you are welcome to post it here. There are many reasons for Kano ryu jujutsu to be called judo, and this is a basic one:

"These general principles correspond to the will, suppleness, mastery, opportunity, and rapidity of adaption."
M. Kawaishi.

If this is not one of the better descriptions of basic judo, then please, I would be more than interested.

BTW: Ubaldo, I have that tape. I meant that I had never seen it before, but I would very much like to know from whom Kano "stole" it.:)

Neil Hawkins
15th September 2000, 11:03
Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Jujutsu also do this kata, is it the same as the one you're talking about?

Itsutsu no Kata Demonstration of Taisabaki and its applicable techniques:

Nagashi Soto - Hiki Otoshi
Nagashi Uchi - Kubi Otoshi
Okuri Soto - Waki Tori Nage
Okuri Uchi - Kakato Gaeshi
Irimi Soto - Ko Soto Gari
Irimi Uchi - Ko Uchi Gari
Irimi Senkai Soto - Ude Hiji Nage
Irini Senkai Uchi - O Goshi Nage
O Irimi Senkai - Ushiro Kata Otoshi
O Irimi Senkai - Tobi Noru Sutemi


It is one of my favourites, when I get it right!:)

Neil

MarkF
15th September 2000, 11:41
Hi, Neil,
I suppose it could be, but this kata is not nearly so specific. If the goal in your kata is the basis of jujutsu in nature, then yes. The kata is more of an excercise for uke than tori, but it is to show "The five Principles of the Universe." That is what I get from the description, but it is not nearly as specific.

Then again, what we do are not that much different, as this is a jujutsu kata in the first place.:look:

Mark

BTW: Neil, after reading your post again, It is the same, with little doubt, especially the last is almost identical, so what I said above? Never mind!:nono:



[Edited by MarkF on 09-15-2000 at 05:43 AM]

Neil Hawkins
15th September 2000, 23:09
I re-read the description given by Ubaldo and none of our techniques involve this: "At the last moment, Nage drops and rolls against uke's legs. Uke carried by his momentum, loses his equilibrium and falls to the mat in a kind of flight."

The only similar motion we have is the Kakato Gaeshi, but this is a definite attack against the knee/ankle. All of the attacks in ours are punching, except for O Irimi Senkai which is a kick.

I would be interested to hear from Peter to see if this resembles the Jujustu kata more than the Judo one. I don't know when this was introduced to our system, it could have been fairly recent if it is the same as Judo, but may have been earlier if it differs, or we could have made it up ourselves and just called it by the same name. ;)

Mitch, this tape they are talking about, is it possible to get a copy or more details so I can look at it?

Neil

pboylan
16th September 2000, 01:06
Hi Neil,

The kata you describe sounds nothing like the Itsusu no Kata of Judo. The Judo kata is five techniques, and they are much as Ubaldo describes them. They are about developing and understanding the highest principles of Judo (which may explain why so many people ignore them. Most of us aren't ready to work at that level).

Peter Boylan

Mitch Saret
16th September 2000, 04:26
Neil,

i will e-mail you with info.

Mel, Thanks for the check. I finally got your tape dubbed and should have it out this weekend.

MarkF
16th September 2000, 09:00
Since it wasn't stated whether the waza of this kata was implied or direct, uke's motion in at least one of the movemnts mentioned by Neil is almost the same. I never meant to imply that his kata, which, to me, in the definition given by Kawaishi, has the intent, but certainly I over-stated the similarity. Also, since KJ implies that it doesn't even to appear to be jujutsu, but that Kawaishi does, implies the very beginnings of experimental jujutsu and what are the very basic notions of what is jujutsu. That another ryu of jujutsu does something called Itsutsu, makes it clear that movements, and the possible finishing of this kata, is very possible.

I think it was Peter who said he says it is a tenjin shin'yo ryu kata? If so, it may very well be that others have evolved this kata in a logical manner.

Most of the older katas including ko shiki no kata have almost universally been dropped, save for kata teachers of judo, eg, John Cornish, formally, or still is, from the Budokwai. He teaches up to nine kata, and not all are Kodokan kata, such as, go no sen no kata. Kawaishi, as well, either established Itsutsu as a "superior kata," or it came from Waseda University. But as to Itsutsu no kata, or the five principles, so far, Kawaishi was either the first to describe them in detail, leaving other jujutsu ryu to follow up.

Mark

Yamantaka
16th September 2000, 10:04
Originally posted by MarkF
"Most of the older katas including ko shiki no kata have almost universally been dropped, save for kata teachers of judo, eg, John Cornish, formally, or still is, from the Budokwai. He teaches up to nine kata, and not all are Kodokan kata, such as, go no sen no kata.
Mark "

YAMANTAKA : And that's really a pity. Koshiki no Kata is another beautiful and interesting kata. I think it was Kano Sensei's hommage to his jujutsu masters. It's even more beautiful when nage uses hakama and a black gi and uke uses the common judogi. Unfortunately, judo has lost quite a lot in this century due to its emphasis in competition. Hope there's some change in it.
A good keiko for you

MarkF
16th September 2000, 10:31
Hi, Ubaldo,
Not everyone has dropped any of the original kata, as I stated is the case of John Cornish. He teaches and coaches those who are intersted in kata tournaments, but not shiai. They are still around, and although I do teach kata, it is not for the reason of salvation.

I spent a good deal of my time in judo fighting in the shiai circuit in California, and a couple of times, made it out of state for natioanl or world contests while a Jr. I suppose if I had run into a teacher who was teaching only kata, that may have been now, as opposed to what I do. It has been only in the last fifteen or more years that I have looked into kata, and found that, as in nage no kata, I was trained in much the same manner, it was just not in front of a jo-seki, taking exactly five steps to return and continue, but they way I was taught was very similar to the way kata teachers teach. I think most would teach that way, at least, I haven't found a way to teach which I can do anything, but teach in pieces of kata. It must be the natural way to teach it, but after so long, some students learn on their own, or are taught by the better in judo, and from that, with repetition, learn how to execute.

But I have also always had some kata from my teachers: Kodokan Goshin jutsu and kime no kata, as they are best or learning self-defense, so I pass it along today. Atemiwaza is a natural, as it is another, and sometimes more effective, manner of kuzushi.

Kata as in Itsutsu may not be necessary today, but I think some will go on to preserve them. At least, that is my hope.

Regards,
Mark

efb8th
16th September 2000, 15:54
Man! The stuff I miss because of my job. Gotta buy more Lotto Tickets!

Hi, Everybody; good stuff.

The Itsutsu no Kata is demonstrated and explained in the K. Mifune Movie from the 50's. I will try to transcribe it tomorrow. Anyway, I'll post it by next weekend. Very interesting.

Jack B
20th September 2000, 00:57
There are some Aikido groups of Tomiki extraction in the USA that practice Koshiki no kata (as well as Kodokan Goshin Jutsu no kata). Koshiki no kata is from the Kito ryu jujutsu, and I've been told Tomiki considered it to exemplify the principle of alternate movements (two opposite and complementary solutions for every problem) which is important to both Judo and Aikido.

MarkF
20th September 2000, 09:55
Tomiki Kenji also included shiai in his school. That, shodokan, is what I am most familiar with. Have you read Tomiki S. book Judo and Aikido? Amazing what you can learn from a book, sometimes. A few wrist looks, etc, have made their way into my dojo, as "use what works" is not a bad lesson.

I had always thought Itsutsu no kata to be an experiment using basic principles on which all jujutsu (judo) was based. It seems from there were the movements built in to form, and then into waza, and then applied kata/randori.

Someone recently said that Kano had called randori, randori no kata, and therefore had distinct and differing intent with waza, as in kata, and differing intent and form in randori. If true, and even if it isn't, the idea is a good one. If you watch female judoka who have been taught traditionally, kata is supreme.

Mark

MarkF
20th September 2000, 10:10
Hi, Jack B,
Please, pelease sign your posts with your full name. It is policy on E-budo. If you would rather use your user name/nickname with your full name, that is fine. Otherwise, please contact the administrator, John Lindsey, and you may be able to work something out with him, if there truly is a problem here.

Mark

efb8th
20th September 2000, 12:08
Hi, Mark.

Randori no Kata refers specifically to Nage and Katame no Kata, the kata which contain the principles used in Randori, not Randori itself. (Note Otaki & Draeger's JUDO: Formal Techniques, a complete guide to Kodokan Randori no Kata.) Note also that ashi-garami has survived in the kata, even though the contest rules have changed to make it a prohibited act.

Regards,

Yamantaka
20th September 2000, 15:16
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]
Kata as in Itsutsu may not be necessary today, but I think some will go on to preserve them. At least, that is my hope.

YAMANTAKA : Uh...Mark, sorry for my thick skull but why do you think so?
And Ed, I have both the Kyuzo Mifune video(fantastic) as the, almost impossible to get, first edition of "JUDO AND AIKIDO" by Tomiki Kenji (really fine!). It was a gift to my son from Lhaofei Shiozawa, an 8th dan and former international champion. He told my son that, since he practiced Aikido, that book would be very important to him, to fully understand the connection between judo and aikido. (He was right, of course, and now we have this big giri!)
Mifune Sensei was really a god and his rendition of Itsutsu no Kata has to be seen to be believed.

efb8th
21st September 2000, 05:07
Hi, Ubaldo.

Tomiki has some impressive Atemi-waza, too. It's nice to run across another collector. I donated my pride and joy book, JUDO by Yokoyama and Oshima, to the Kodokan archives. It seems they had the first edition of JUDO KYOHAN only in Japanese. Naoki Murata, the head curator of the Kodokan museum archives, was very effusive in his thanks, and now you can see it in the list of holdings on the Kodokan website.

Regards,

MarkF
21st September 2000, 09:56
Ubaldo,
You have a fist edition? Geez, mine is a copy from someone who has a first edition.

Itsutsu no kata may be unnecessary, as is ko shiki no kata done im armour. Of course it WAS necessary, as I still believe it was more an experiment done on universal principles of the time.

There are newer studies of it, but nothing which really teaches any more than this kata did long ago. This kata is laid out in such a linear manner, and it is that which may not be necessary. Of course the traditions should be remembered, but if the Kodokan had its way, a simple four or five line paragraph would be enough to describe it.

Ed, I think Ben Holmes has a copy of the Yokoyama book, as the scan of the seoiotoshi is from that book.

I think Tomiki understood judo better than many others thus, the comparisons of aikido and Judo basically being the same thing. At least, I do like his understated manner of explaining the inexplicable, at times. Of course, I have a real limited knowledge of Aikido, but on this I agree.

Mark

Yamantaka
21st September 2000, 13:41
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
Ubaldo,
You have a fist edition? Geez, mine is a copy from someone who has a first edition.

YAMANTAKA : I'm a lucky one, am I not? :))

"Itsutsu no kata may be unnecessary, as is ko shiki no kata done im armour. Of course it WAS necessary, as I still believe it was more an experiment done on universal principles of the time."

YAMANTAKA : Well, quoting Meik Skoss, in his wife's book KORYU BUJUTSU :
" The Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu kuden forms the basis of Kodokan Judo's Itsutsu no Kata (five forms), a series of 5 unnamed techniques that are very abstract in appearance and are said to represent the theoretical basis of Kodokan Judo's throwing techniques. The Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu kuden, though, have evocative names that conjure up the feeling or image of the principle involved. If one sees these movement sequences without no prior knowledge of what they represent, they may seem ineffective and silly, without any definite purpose.It is only after one has trained for a long period of time, and acquired sufficient skill in the techniques, that it becomes possible to understand and internalize what the movements "mean" in a practical sense. They are, in a very real sense, the essence of Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu approach to unarmed combat." Thanks, Meik and Diane!

"This kata is laid out in such a linear manner, and it is that which may not be necessary. Of course the traditions should be remembered, but if the Kodokan had its way, a simple four or five line paragraph would be enough to describe it."

YAMANTAKA : Uh...? The second movement in Itsutsu no Kata is everything BUT linear! And as Meik says, it may seem simple and silly but it definitely is not. It is sad that the Kodokan wishes to abandon it.

"I think Tomiki understood judo better than many others thus, the comparisons of aikido and Judo [b]basically being the same thing. At least, I do like his understated manner of explaining the inexplicable, at times. Of course, I have a real limited knowledge of Aikido, but on this I agree."

YAMANTAKA : Indeed. Tomiki Sensei was a wonderful master, not only of Aikido, but also of Judo and his vision of both arts as ultimately the same thing is, IMHO, correct. In his opinion, Aikido is Judo at some distance...

MarkF
22nd September 2000, 08:40
Ubaldo,
I didn't say itsutsu has no meaning indeed, I only said it was "unecessary" to understand the very basics of jujutsu waza, which this is. It is very losely jujutsu, at least when performed, and as a performance or description, it is very basic, and is structured, and that is why it seems linear. That is certainly not wrong, just the reason for it has outlived its usefulness. It definitely has lines, pre-imposed, as all kata do, and this much more so. If we were to perform the ko shiki no kata correctly, we would need to be dressed in armour.

The Kodokan certainly is not the last word on judo, but I agree that a little "digging" by the comittee could have at least given credit to someone, IE, M. Kawaishi.

If time were only as James Thurber said when asked how he felt about aging. "In my way of thinking, the year has fifteen months, so I am still a fairly yong man." (very paraphrased).:)

Mark