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Ka1yama
31st December 2002, 21:09
At the dojo I train at there are only 2 female students. How many women train at your schools and how do you reach this particular audience.
Neil Stewart

Robert Wolfe
1st January 2003, 00:13
At our dojo, we typically run about 25% female enrollment, regardless of the specific art (although our Shinto Muso-ryu practice group is almost 50% female).

25% is, to me, about the minimum desirable ratio. It seems to me that women in a dojo are analogous to the control rods in a nuclear reactor -- if you don't have enough, the men reach a critical mass of testosterone and tend to get stupid.

As for how to insure the optimal ratio, I'm not sure. We don't do anything in particular to attract women, other than insuring the dojo is always spotlessly clean and (I think) it's always obvious to female visitors that the women in the dojo are respected and valued.

benkei
1st January 2003, 02:42
Where I train (in kendo) there is a fairly high female membership - between 25 and 35%. The main factors for this as I see it are:
1) the art - in this case they are learning an art that rewards intelligence and co-ordination above brute strength and speed
2) dojo spirit - a lively and warm spirit of cameraderie in the dojo encourages retention of members regardless of gender.
2) friends - our female membership is highest when there is a group of friends who go through the beginners' program and kyuu ranks together
3) instruction - although this is I feel the least influential factor, nevertheless it helps IMHO to make sure male instructors aren't putting out macho messages. This does not mean, however that training can't be physically or mentally demanding. I suppose you could say that if the instructor feels completely comfortable having women in the class, they will feel comfortable being in his class.

bsheppard

sistaninja
7th January 2003, 02:59
Here is my list of things which make a difference.

To attract women to the dojo:
1. spend some serious time getting clear around your personal experiences/prejudices/expectations about training with/teaching women - do you GENUINELY believe women have the right and ability to defend themselves,or to learn a martial art for sport, pleasure, self-defence? do you want to 'save them'? do you want to make money out of them? Are you GENUINELY open to develop your teaching/approach to work effectively with women? The answers to these questions are not necessarily as easy as you might first think - but instructors need to get clear about what they are communicating as women will sense the vibe
2. have images of women training in your advertising
3. have an anti-discrimination/harassment policy which is publicly displayed and where agreement to the principles are a pre-requisite for training in the dojo - this demonstrates you mean business

To keep women training at the dojo:
1. If you do not have senior women at your dojo as role models - consider suggesting your female students go to one of the local or national women's training camps - women need role models as much as men for inspiration. If you demonstrate you are open to this, this sends a powerful message to women that you genuinely support their development.

2. Make sure rank is respected regardless of gender. It is a common experience for men to assume they are in charge of a training situation regardless of the woman's rank - this is really booooring!

3.Some small things can make a big difference: Watch for men constantly correcting/commenting on women's techniques, even senior women's techniques. This is also really booooooring to be on the receiving end of, and is, quite simply top-dogging behaviour. Encourage all students to leave the teaching to you and just get on and train. (When a male student challenges me on this behaviour - I ask them to seriously consider "Would you say what you just said to a male black belt?" This usually gets the point across. Also, make sure men pair up with women for training, and women are not left standing - it is not pleasant to be constantly treated as the last resort training partner.

4. Make sure you use women as uke when demonstrating.

5. If they have appropriate rank, give them the same expectations and responsibilities you would a male eg if a black belt, instructing when you are away (and not just the kiddies!), representing the dojo, demonstrating techniques

6. If you have a question about women's training - ask them! Many men just assume they are supposed to be in charge and know what to do, know how to handle things, know what women want....they often ignore the TWO simplest things - asking and
... listening.

Dean Whittle
7th January 2003, 03:42
I have anywhere between two and seven training in my class on a given night (between 10% to 30% of my total attendance).

Existing female students are the best advertisement for other women to join. Seeing them treated equally and respectfully by everyone else will encourages other women to join the school.

I also talk to my female students as a group after class every 6 to 8 weeks. During these 'meetings' we talk about their experiences, I answer any questions they have and offer any advice I can on their development. I set out at the beginning of every meeting that what ever is said stays with the people present and is not repeated outside the meeting, this way they can communicate honestly about their experiences. This has proved to be very successful in helping them progress and in my teaching.

With respect

Ka1yama
7th January 2003, 17:27
thank you


neil stewart

Audrey Hoo
9th January 2003, 07:48
Hi Neil,

I left training at one particular dojo because

a) I was only allowed to pair with other women or children. Never allowed to pair with the men. Unless there was no choice.

b) There was only one woman senior who wasn't much of a role model. Sensei, seemed to let her off the hook easier then the guys her rank because she was a girl (not that she minded at all!)

c) there were constant comments between the men like " your throwing is worse then a girls!" coming from the sensei himself! And when coming from students, he didn't bother to correct it. Which I wasn't too pleased about.

The club had 'advertised' equality and fairness to both sexes and had mentioned that women would have no problem doing the techniques etc etc.. and I didn't have any doubts about the techniques nor ideals of the art .. but, how the sensei carried out his instructions to his students--the learning process was terribly discrimatory, though I'm quite certain he doesn't consciously know that he is showing discrimination.

just my 2cents of thoughts. :)

cheers,
Audrey

Audrey Hoo
9th January 2003, 07:53
Hi Neil,

I left training at one particular dojo because

a) I was only allowed to pair with other women or children. Never allowed to pair with the men. Unless there was no choice.

b) There was only one woman senior who wasn't much of a role model. Sensei, seemed to let her off the hook easier then the guys her rank because she was a girl (not that she minded at all!)

c) there were constant comments between the men like " your throwing is worse then a girls!" coming from the sensei himself! And when coming from students, he didn't bother to correct it. Which I wasn't too pleased about.

The club had 'advertised' equality and fairness to both sexes and had mentioned that women would have no problem doing the techniques etc etc.. and I didn't have any doubts about the techniques nor ideals of the art .. but, how the sensei carried out his instructions to his students--the learning process was terribly discrimatory, though I'm quite certain he doesn't consciously know that he is showing discrimination.

just my 2cents of thoughts. :)

cheers,
Audrey

Ka1yama
9th January 2003, 08:58
I'm sorry that happened to you Miss Audrey. Bravo for moving on. We don't have alot of women enrolled in the dojo I train at. Many come and go only a few stick with it. Respect is given to everyone in the class obviously including women.

I am interested in helping the dojo. I have noticed that when there were alot of women present (mostly in the form of an aerobic kickboxing workout) there were more people, both men and women in the budo part of the curriculum as well. As if having more women in the dojo brought in more of both men and women. Is this a trend anyone else has seen? I feel if I could figure out how to get more women in the class not only would we have more women in class, but also more enrollment, which would really help.

If you are interested in seeing my female collegues and thier training you can find several pictures at www.artofcombat.com

Thanks again
Neil

sistaninja
9th January 2003, 20:51
I have been training for over 20 years and teaching for 7, and am an active member of Women in Martial Arts here in Australia - so I have experienced this issue from many perspectives. Believe me, Audrey's response is a good example of the types of issues I was raising - her experience is very, very common! Most women who have stayed in martial arts have experience all of this and more. Things are changing somewhat in some areas, but still a long way to go.

At the same time I sincerely understand I am also still working my own way through this issue as a teacher. I too have experienced some frustration at seeing women walk out the door after only a few months, and watched women struggle with staying with the process. I go to the local kickboxing circuit myself and see all the women training - why are they not up the road with us learning 'real' self-defence?

I am reluctant to generalise, but I am beginning to understand that many women may take about 12-18 months or so before they finally relax within themselves and say 'yes' - I can do this. Don;t forget -most women stop 'playing' wrestling, contact sports etc when they are about 12. Our society does not support women in this kind of rough and tumble. They may also have had negative experiences of physical contact with men that they are consciously or unconsciously working through. So - if I am correct - 12-18 months is a long time to be feeling a little or a lot overwhelmed and still keep going! This requires patience all round.

Some people might need to look at their teaching style as well and allow for gender differences (but without overgeneralising). For example I have had learnt that many men respond to a more directive and task oriented communication style whereas women respond to more relational, discursive communication. There is emerging evidence of this in educational circles.

So - talking to women, listening and responding accordingly is important. There was a large study in the UK which tested how men respond to women talking. Part one was they set up a situation where a woman told a story to a man and he had to then do a comprehension test based on her story. This was compared to a test he did when a man told a story. Most men could not remember key issues from the woman's story, yet could remember most of what the man had said.

Part two was, they embedded something strange but factual in the story. When men told this strange but factual story, other men believed him. But, when the woman told a strange but factual story, they did not.

Good luck!

MarieB
17th January 2003, 03:03
Originally posted by sistaninja
I go to the local kickboxing circuit myself and see all the women training - why are they not up the road with us learning 'real' self-defence?

I am reluctant to generalise, but I am beginning to understand that many women may take about 12-18 months or so before they finally relax within themselves and say 'yes' - I can do this. Don;t forget -most women stop 'playing' wrestling, contact sports etc when they are about 12. Our society does not support women in this kind of rough and tumble.

Some people might need to look at their teaching style as well and allow for gender differences (but without overgeneralising). For example I have had learnt that many men respond to a more directive and task oriented communication style whereas women respond to more relational, discursive communication. There is emerging evidence of this in educational circles.


i think these are all good points. i think women are lacking in MA because they do not see themselves represented in it...most videogames and movies related to MA lack in representations of women fighting. women are not encouraged like men to engage in combat sports. for these reasons, i think that women do not think of fighting as a feminine thing to do.

perhaps women engage more in kickboxing b/c there have been movies made about tough women who did physically challenging sports for self interest as opposed to self defense. for example, G.I. Jane and Private Benjamin show women doing traditionally male activities (involvement in the military). however we do not see them fighting with others so much...more to do these things for their own self discipline, confidence, etc. it would be more encouraging to see women in the media depicted as doing MA more often.

in a previous thread, it was once said that doing MA is a primarily selfish interest- you do it for yourself. women are raised to be more relational, so that may be the reason why there arent too many women in MA.

without being able to change society at large, i think the recommended ideas are pretty good...check out advertising, the way women are treated at the dojos, communication style, etc. all of these things are important. the meeting idea is a very good one, especially if there arent many women in the class. then women can feel heard and responded to.

teaching style is probably the key to keeping women involved. if women feel theyre in an intimidating or hostile environment, theyll leave. if however they feel supported and given growth opportunities, i think theyll stay :)

Dean Whittle
17th January 2003, 03:45
Marie,

It's interesting that you link the portrayal of action-star females in the media with school enrolments. Since late 2000 I noticed an increasing number of women watching my classes and enrolling. On giving the matter some thought I realised that there had also been an increase in the number of tv shows and movies portraying women in action roles, including Buffy, Alias, Dark Angel, Tomb Raider, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Girlfight etc (there's even an television ad here in Australia showing a women using martial arts techniques to 'kick' her cigarette habit). The more this happens, the more females will become interested in martial arts, in a sense this gives women the permission to participate in an otherwise male dominated field.

With respect