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Jack Ryan
3rd January 2003, 15:15
The Bujinkan was first introduced to mainstream America by (now) Shihan Stephen K. Hayes in 1975. So, it has been roughly 26 years. Since 1975 when the number of Shidoshi could becounted on your fingers (maybe using one hand twice), there have gone from about 12 -15 shidoshi, to over 1,000 shidoshi.

So, there are over 1,000 people "qualified" to teach Hatsumi Sensei's martial art. Not to mention all of the shidoshi-ho who have there own training halls.

The Genbukan was formed in 1984 if I remember correctly. In its 19 years of existence, I see that they have only 100 dojos around the world to show for Tanemura Sensei's effort to teach his martial arts.

The Jinenkan has been around only 6 or 7 years. They have but 12 dojos around the world.

How is it the the Genbukan which has been around only 6 or 7 years less then the Bujinkan, have only 100 dojos? Could this be the fact that the Bujinkan has been pushing out an average of approximately 40 "qualified" shidoshi per year. A level that at one time was considered somethign special? What do you think is the reason behind that?

Jack

Tamdhu
3rd January 2003, 20:43
What's the reason? There is none. It's just the way it turned out.

There is no numbers game when it comes to getting the knowledge and training you want.

Good luck!

pete lohstroh
3rd January 2003, 23:35
Jack,
since you posed the question, would you mind letting me know what you think is implied by this data and why you think it is significant?

Thanks much.

John Lindsey
3rd January 2003, 23:51
I think the Genbukan appeals to a smaller percent of people, those who might be more interested in a traditional, structured approach to the art.

Hatsumi S. has put a lot of effort into spreading the art over the last 25 years. You have to give him credit for that, and for setting up a system whichs allows progession in rank at a faster rate, than say that of a traditional Japanese dojo system such as the Katori Shinto-ryu.

Dom C
4th January 2003, 02:30
Originally posted by John Lindsey

Hatsumi S. has put a lot of effort into spreading the art over the last 25 years. You have to give him credit for that, and for setting up a system whichs allows progession in rank at a faster rate, than say that of a traditional Japanese dojo system such as the Katori Shinto-ryu.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to be thankfull for a quick progression through rank,and even if was worth mentioning it wouldnt exactly be seen as something deserving credit.

bencole
4th January 2003, 02:42
Originally posted by Jack Ryan
What do you think is the reason behind that?

Well, there's the source.... and then there's, well, you know.... ;)

-ben

Ninja2004
4th January 2003, 06:18
I think the Genbukan appeals to a smaller percent of people, those who might be more interested in a traditional, structured approach to the art.

Please elaborate on how you see the Bujinkan as being a less traditional and structured approach to the art?

Chris

Jonathan
4th January 2003, 07:13
Originally posted by John Lindsey

Hatsumi S. has put a lot of effort into spreading the art over the last 25 years. You have to give him credit for that, and for setting up a system whichs allows progession in rank at a faster rate, than say that of a traditional Japanese dojo system such as the Katori Shinto-ryu.

You can say that again!

10th DAN in 12 years (per one Bunjinkan web site). That's even quicker than in the ATA.

Still, he has worked very hard to promote his art and if he has more students it is because more have sought him out. I don't see anything wrong with the statistics.

ninjaman
5th January 2003, 02:25
Bujinkan´s popularity is due to Soke´s art, which is like no other. And that is what draws people to him. It´s as easy as that.

As for the ranking system - do ot pay attention to it. If you focus on belts, you are a dead martial artist anyway. Just feel grateful if you are given one, then continue training.

Johan Grönwall

Tamdhu
6th January 2003, 17:18
Hatsumi S. has put a lot of effort into spreading the art over the last 25 years. You have to give him credit for that...

Gee, thanks!

; )

methos
7th January 2003, 16:06
That it is not a matter of numbers o reasons why something is happening, it is more a matter of what you find in the bujinkan, I have practiced many martial arts until I found out about Soke, and I recognized spirit and heart when it comes to training. It is not the art itself, it is about you becoming a better person and I think that is much more appealing than anything else on this world....

kimq
7th January 2003, 16:33
Personally, I am a strong adherent that all ranks should get the boot. Each of us should be judged by our physical ability, knowledge, and our names rather than rank.

bencole
7th January 2003, 18:50
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jonathan
10th DAN in 12 years (per one Bunjinkan web site). That's even quicker than in the ATA.

People don't join the Bujinkan and stay with it because they "may get rank quickly." That's silly.

They train because it is one of the most fulfilling, comprehensive martial arts out there. They stay because they love the atmosphere of training, the respect for individual differences (rather than forcing everyone to be the same), the effectiveness of the techniques, the wisdom and ability of one of the foremost martial artists in the world, and finally for the pure joy of training...and LIFE!

Hatsumi-sensei stopped "seeking new students" looooong ago. But they just keep coming! You gotta wonder why....

-ben

Jack Ryan
7th January 2003, 20:02
People come to the Bujinkan for many reasons. People stay in the bujinkan for many reasons. Same with the other organizations. My point wasn't about that. Nor about Hatsumi Sensei's abilities (IMHO, he is an amazing martial artist).

My post was about the influx of "qualified" Bujinkan shidoshi today. There is a serious lack of quality in the martial arts of many (but by no means all) of these "qualified" shidoshi.

I have seen so many different renditions of the same Ryu-ha kata performed, that it isn't even funny. I have been told, almost every time, "The other ways you have seen it are henka variations. But this is the way it is written in the scrolls.". Sorry, but the information just hasn't been given to all of the "qualified" shidoshi. I have heard all about "Learn the Form, Break the Form, Forget the form". I understand the concept, and agree with it. But the fact is far too many "qualified" shidoshi haven't even learned the form. They simply use that concept as a cop-out. And Hatsumi Sensei doesn't care. Why? Because there are a few (very few) who have learned the correct form, and who will be passing down the true Ryu-ha as they were meant to be passed down.

Most people in the Bujinkan are never going to learn the true Ryu-ha techniques and principles simply becuse they have noone to learn them from (even thought they think they do). Budo Taijutsu is watered down. It is public. It is mass-media. Not very many respectible Koryu would ever let this happen to their Ryu-ha. There are people who have been studying in Ryu-ha for 20 years who do not have the right to teach the techniques yet. Some "qualified" Bujinkan Shidoshi have trained for less than half that time, and can "teach" the techniques of 6 Ryu-Ha. Somethign isn't right here.

My piont simply is this....There are probably less then 20 people in the Bujinkan who can truly teach these Koryu from beginning to end. And none of them issue true Shoden/Chuden/Okuden Menkyo (except maybe Murumatsu Shihan). Too many people on this board think that they understand the martial arts of the Bujinkan. When in fact, they are only seeing the public face of the Bujinkan, not the true REAL MARTIAL ARTS that are its contents.

Over 1,000 "qualified" instructors? Not Really.

- Jack Ryan
(Former Bujinkan Shodan who got his Shodan by writting to Bujinkan Honbu Dojo, sending the fee, and recieving "Shodan" in the mail. Didn't even hae a copy of a "Shidoshi-Kai" card.)

kimq
8th January 2003, 20:46
Originally posted by Jack Ryan

(Former Bujinkan Shodan who got his Shodan by writting to Bujinkan Honbu Dojo, sending the fee, and recieving "Shodan" in the mail. Didn't even hae a copy of a "Shidoshi-Kai" card.)

Can you substantiate this?

BigJon
8th January 2003, 21:13
Too many people on this board think that they understand the martial arts of the Bujinkan.

Out of curiosity, do you? (Beelzebub's advocate here..)

Jon Gillespie

bencole
8th January 2003, 21:18
It appears the post I posted late last night was deleted when E-budo got sick this morning, so I will repost it here. I just can't let a good wholesome rant go to waste.... :D

Enjoy!

-ben

------


Originally posted by Jack Ryan
I have seen so many different renditions of the same Ryu-ha kata performed, that it isn't even funny. I have been told, almost every time, "The other ways you have seen it are henka variations. But this is the way it is written in the scrolls."

And to be honest, they are as it is written in the scrolls. :)

Have you ever seen the contents of the scrolls? Well, if you have, you would know that they sound kinda like this.

Tori punches. Uke right foot back. Block punch. Step forward. Strike (target). etc. etc.

The scrolls are cookbook instructions of choppy movements held in a vacuum, nothing more. They have no life in them. And merely following them rote results in crappy movement. Period.

The scrolls need interpreting, which necessitates an experienced teacher who can decipher the technique for you. Did the punch require a Fudoken or a Seiken? What was the distance you needed? What was the timing supposed to be like? Do you block early in the punch cycle, or later? NONE of these things are stipulated in the scrolls most of the time.

I hate to crush your solid expectations otherwise, but THERE IS NO ONE CORRECT WAY TO DO A TECHNIQUE from the scrolls, regardless of what any wannabe Soke says....

Therefore, all of those techniques that you have seen that have come "straight from the scrolls" have, in fact, been straight from the scrolls.


I have heard all about "Learn the Form, Break the Form, Forget the form". I understand the concept, and agree with it. But the fact is far too many "qualified" shidoshi haven't even learned the form.

The question you must ask is: WHY WAS A PARTICULAR TECHNIQUE CODIFIED IN THE SCROLLS?

Rarely, imo, is is to "learn a form." That's where your "understanding" of the densho differs from most "qualified Bujinkan instructors," including me. The reason why a particular technique was captured in the scrolls was to impart a principle of movement. From that principle, ANYTHING can bloom. That is why all those "henka" can emerge.


And Hatsumi Sensei doesn't care. Why? Because there are a few (very few) who have learned the correct form, and who will be passing down the true Ryu-ha as they were meant to be passed down.

What are you talking about : "...as they were meant to be passed down"!?! What a bunch of horse crap! You sound like a few other supposedly "enlightened individuals" who left Soke to become their own "Soke" because they "knew better." If Hatsumi-sensei doesn't know how the teachings he was entrusted with by Takamatsu-sensei "should be passed down" then who does? You? Those "other guys"? LOL!


There are people who have been studying in Ryu-ha for 20 years who do not have the right to teach the techniques yet. Some "qualified" Bujinkan Shidoshi have trained for less than half that time, and can "teach" the techniques of 6 Ryu-Ha. Somethign isn't right here.

Yep. And it's your understanding of "what is right" in an art that you obviously have little understanding of.... You're EXACTLY the type of person who should read the introduction to my book. :D You need it! LOL!


My piont simply is this....There are probably less then 20 people in the Bujinkan who can truly teach these Koryu from beginning to end. And none of them issue true Shoden/Chuden/Okuden Menkyo (except maybe Murumatsu Shihan).

None of them will because we DON'T DO THAT in the Bujinkan. Hatsumi-sensei does not give Menkyo for any particular Ryuha, nor for particular "levels" such as Shoden, Chuden, etc.


Too many people on this board think that they understand the martial arts of the Bujinkan.

Well, most of them have a far greater understanding than you do, that's for sure. It's obvious from your posts that you really DON'T understand what Soke is doing, nor what he is trying to impart. Seems strange to me that you are criticizing as if you know something that they don't....


(Former Bujinkan Shodan who got his Shodan by writting to Bujinkan Honbu Dojo, sending the fee, and recieving "Shodan" in the mail. Didn't even hae a copy of a "Shidoshi-Kai" card.)

Soke will gladly take your money. So will I. Please send me a check at the address on my website and I will write you a menkyo as well. As was said prior, congratulations on wasting your money on a piece of paper.

You may find your progess in the art will improve if you actually TRAIN properly. Then you might actually be embarrassed that you cannot live up to that rank that you so easily received. Until that point, that piece of paper is just a piece of paper. Only after that point does that Shodan have any significance....and then, only to yourself as you look into the mirror and find yourself wanting....

-ben

pete lohstroh
9th January 2003, 01:20
Mr. Ryan,
you wouldn't happen to be using a Tom Clancy character name to troll the depths stealthily...would you?

gmarquay
9th January 2003, 14:16
What a GREAT response Mr. Cole!!!

Although, it is dis-heartening to know that hatsumi Sensei won't give out the old-style Menkyo at all. I think that those would be something really worth striving for.

Of course, learning more about yourself on a daily basis through constant training is also worth striving for.

thanks again for that great respaonse.

campsinger
9th January 2003, 14:51
Hey, all...

After reading Mr. Ryan's comments on his shodan, I felt compelled to contribute my two yen worth...

It has been my experience, both with students and as a never-ending student myself, reactions to rank promotions differ according to the amount of understanding the person being promoted has about ninpo. If they don't have a clue, they beam with pride and are happily telling everyone they got promoted. If they have a grasp on the depths of budo taijutsu (even if only to attempt to understand how deep the water truly is), the reaction to being promoted is generally a mixed bag of surprise, guilt, unworthiness, irritation, and a deep sigh of resignation as they accept the rewards of their blood, sweat, and tears. More than once have I cussed about being promoted, and I was recently called a "bastard" (good naturedly, of course) by a student that I had just promoted to his shodan.

You see, choosing the proper time to promote a student is a tricky thing. A student should be promoted when they are ready, but before THEY think they are ready. This results in a student believing that they are not as good as they actually are, and so work twice as hard to play catch-up to something that doesn't exist, as well as to "justify" my faith in them (in their opinion). If I should happen to miss that timing, then I will simply let them, for lack of a better way to phrase it, sit and rot at their current rank for a while and see if they will persevere; a test to see if they are training only to get a particular rank, or are they training to evolve as a human being towards becoming a tatsujin (complete human being). Then at a later date, I will promote them several ranks to show them that I was paying attention and did not forget about them, and to get them back on the schedule of being as good as their rank but not yet THINKING that they are.

Of course, there are those that don't understand this system of promoting. It is very similar to the Japanese custom of promoting according to potential. Just because you are promoted to shodan, it doesn't mean that you ARE a shodan, it just means that you have the potential to be a shodan. Either that, or the teacher will accept that you refuse to be guided, and that you have an overly developed ego and concept of self-importance, as well as more money than humility. Being a qualified teacher of Budo Taijutsu, the shidoshi/shidoshi-ho/Soke attempt to teach you one final lesson as you walk out the doors proclaiming to be a "ninja" of whatever rank you were willing to pay for with money rather than blood, sweat, and tears. It should be noted that if you are promoted to shodan based on potential, then quit training before reaching that potential, you aren't a shodan...just a quitter. The loss is the wannabe student's, not the teacher's, not the art's. The the teacher, art, and the entire martial arts community is far better off without such a wannabe student, for one day the wannabe will injure somone; hopefully the only person injured is themself.

Jack Ryan
9th January 2003, 16:18
Mr Cole,

I really liked your response to my post. I can honestly say that I have not looked at things in the way you have presented them. I no longer wear my "Shodan". Remeber, I said I was a former Shodan. I did that to see if all of the rank rumors that I had been hearing were true. I have been dis-heartened with the bujinkan ever sense.

I feel very humbled by your words. No, I have never looked at the scrolls. And I was definitely not aware of how vague they are. I want to honestly thank you for pointing this out to me. I am doing a lot of deep introspection now. I feel like I now have a better outlook on all things Bujinkan. Thank you for that. I hope noone thinks that I am being sarcastic here. Because I mean every word of what I say. So, thank you all for your replies.

Jack Ryan
(Yes, this is my real name. No I donn't have a wife and two kids, and I'm not a CIA guy who is also the President. But thanks for the vote of confidence. LOL)

BigJon
9th January 2003, 16:25
Because I mean every word of what I say. So, thank you all for your replies.

Wow! Thank you!

Jon Gillespie

Tamdhu
9th January 2003, 17:21
Fully expecting you (Mr. Ryan) to 'counter' Ben's post, I found myself 'thrown' quite effectively when reading your response.

Good training!

In my opinion:

Many of the Bujinkan's 'weaknesses' are in fact it's greatest strengths. Rumors and controversy are distractions, as well as opportunities to exercise tolerance, creativity and perseverance.

Good luck!

chikara
9th January 2003, 18:28
Originally posted by campsinger
Hey, all...

If they have a grasp on the depths of budo taijutsu (even if only to attempt to understand how deep the water truly is), the reaction to being promoted is generally a mixed bag of surprise, guilt, unworthiness, irritation, and a deep sigh of resignation as they accept the rewards of their blood, sweat, and tears. More than once have I cussed about being promoted, and I was recently called a "bastard" (good naturedly, of course) by a student that I had just promoted to his shodan.
This is how I felt when I received my last rank....
totally surprised, TOTALLY unworthy, and yes, a bit irritated
(that I would have to get out the old needle and thread again, SO SOON).
I teased Sensei that night for promoting me, but to be honest,
I didn't really want a rank right now. I find it strange to hear
of artists being attracted to the Bujinkan because getting ranks
is relatively quick.


A student should be promoted when they are ready, but before THEY think they are ready. This results in a student believing that they are not as good as they actually are, and so work twice as hard to play catch-up to something that doesn't exist, as well as to "justify" my faith in them (in their opinion).
This is how it seems to be occurring in my dojo. Maybe with the
exception of one individual, we kyu ranks always feel as if we're
not ready. There is a lot of guilt to get up to speed as it were,
and what you said about "catching-up" is right on the money.

Normally, ranks are furthest from my mind, except in that I don't
want to have the stars without having the budo that belongs with
them. I hope that I can reach a point where I feel balanced between
my skills and my rank. Right now I feel that as soon as I add the
next star to my gi and show up to class, I will no longer be able
to have a "duh" moment during training, and I won't get cut any
slack for anything less than perfect taijutsu moves.
<perfectionism can be a distracting curse>

Am I crazy here? Do others feel this pressure also?

chikara

bencole
9th January 2003, 19:05
Originally posted by gmarquay
Although, it is dis-heartening to know that hatsumi Sensei won't give out the old-style Menkyo at all. I think that those would be something really worth striving for.

Have you ever given thought to the fact that THAT might be precisely why Soke no longer gives out the old-style Menkyo?

Hmm....

When he did, people strove for those things, and having received them, thought (wrongly) that they knew all they needed to know..... One VERY well-known individual, who is discussed on this board, said having received his Godan, "Good. I've gotten what I need." and then began making his plans to leave (and eventually did so). To him, and to many others, the recognition afforded by the piece of paper was far more important than the lessons to be learned. If you look at the activities of this person since leaving Hatsumi-sensei, you will see clearly that he truly is "found wanting."

Hmm...

Why should anyone be striving for a piece of paper recognition? Isn't Budo much more than that? Isn't Budo about one's OWN admonitions of self and search for perfection of character and skill? It has nothing to do with a Menkyo.

The finest practitioners of the Bujinkan know and understand this. They continue because of what they personally gain, not from what they materialistically gain. Do you actually think that someone like Bill Atkins or Sveneric Bogstater somehow understand "less" Budo than someone who did receive such a Menkyo in the past?

Hmm....


Originally posted by Jack Ryan
I feel very humbled by your words.

There is no need to feel "humbled." Just use that introspection to bring yourself to a new understanding about what Budo *IS* not what you thought it should be.

The teachings of the Bujinkan are VERY deep. In my opinion, they take you to the depths of yourself, and many people are uncomfortable with that. They seek an art that doesn't make such "internal demands," and instead seek out "external demands" that do not require them to come to a realization of who they are and what is important to them. The Bujinkan is obviously NOT for those people, though I believe, they are the ones who need it most. :D

Good luck on your path. Do not mistake the glitter for the gold. Please feel free to email me any time.

-ben

campsinger
9th January 2003, 19:23
Originally posted by Jack Ryan
I can honestly say that I have not looked at things in the way you [Ben Cole] have presented them... I feel very humbled by your words... I am doing a lot of deep introspection now... I hope noone thinks that I am being sarcastic here... So, thank you all for your replies.

Jack Ryan


Mr. Ryan, you appear to have the proper budo spirit. That spirit is a difficult seed to get to sprout, and even more difficult to keep growing, as it takes a lot of dedication and humility to nourish it properly. I hope you continue on this path. The world needs more such seeds to sprout, and grow tall and strong. I congratulate you and wish you well on your introspection. That can be a very scary and disillusioning process, seeing yourself for who and what you truly are.

By the way, your profile merely states that you study Koryu Budo. Could you please be a little more specific? Just curious...

Bradenn
9th January 2003, 23:36
Originally posted by bencole


Have you ever given thought to the fact that THAT might be precisely why Soke no longer gives out the old-style Menkyo?

Hmm....

When he did, people strove for those things, and having received them, thought (wrongly) that they knew all they needed to know..... One VERY well-known individual, who is discussed on this board, said having received his Godan, "Good. I've gotten what I need." and then began making his plans to leave (and eventually did so). To him, and to many others, the recognition afforded by the piece of paper was far more important than the lessons to be learned. If you look at the activities of this person since leaving Hatsumi-sensei, you will see clearly that he truly is "found wanting."




It is a bit unclear who you are referring to here. Or perhaps I should say Hazy instead of unclear :)

Seriously though, if a teacher sees a student with an attitude like that, why not just delay gradings or menkyo UNTIL the point where the student has realised that it is unimportant? Shouldn't that be the moment when you actually deserve it? And if they continue to have this attitude then simply never give them the grade and let them leave without it.

Ben, you undoubtedly know Hatsumi-sensei better than most of us here, but the way you put this seems to underrate his ability to discern a sincere student from the paper-chasing or glory-driven ones.



Originally posted by bencole


Why should anyone be striving for a piece of paper recognition? Isn't Budo much more than that? Isn't Budo about one's OWN admonitions of self and search for perfection of character and skill? It has nothing to do with a Menkyo.



I have heard exactly the same argument used to justify not getting married! "We know how we feel about each other, so why do we need a piece of paper?".

Yet people still do get married and do want that piece of paper. They want something more than living together, sleeping together, being in love,etc. And that something boils down to a piece of paper doesn't it? Why do they want it? Are they materialistic? Are they greedy? Are they shallow?

Having that piece of paper doesn't guarantee a happy marriage or prevent against a divorce. You definitely need the kihon (love, communication, affection etc). But the marriage menkyo still has its place ... or doesn't it?

kimq
10th January 2003, 15:32
Originally posted by Shojin
However, you do need some standards for teaching certification I believe although I could be missing something on that as well.

The school I attend hosted a Kelly Worden seminar last year. When he was sharing his Arnis knowledge with us he had an interesting concept story to share:

A bunch of tribesmen know the bad guys are coming. All the tribe is armed with is field machetes for anything that resembles a decent weapon in their mind. The tribesmen gather to discuss what to do and bring their machetes.

One shakey fellow asks, "S-so what do w-we do?!"

While out in the fields a few seasons ago, one of the tribesmen was attacked by an animal. He defended himself with two basic chopping motions (angles top right to bottom left and top left to bottom right). He grabbed a short stick and said to the fearful fellow, "Here do this with your machete," and he did his two successful slashing motions across the chest of the first. "You go show those guys and I'll show these."

And so was born the first martial teacher of the tribe. Of course, after the battle those that survived could add what they learned. Some of tribesmen who saw their fellows fall could also add what failed and everyone could toss it out.

The point is that one dude knew one technique more than the next and shared it with him. In essence, he was "one who had gone before" and imparted knowledge to the less experienced. When a battlefield vet returned to share his one or two extra moves that he knew over the basic two slashes, he became the teacher.

Where's the need for teaching certifcation?

Tamdhu
10th January 2003, 17:13
I have heard exactly the same argument used to justify not getting married! "We know how we feel about each other, so why do we need a piece of paper?".

I think the difference may lie in the fact that a marriage is much more than a proof or declaration of love between two parties. It's a legally binding contract which seriously re-defines the couple's status within their society.

If you were referring to the military, I would agree completely. Joining the military is very much a 'marriage' to Uncle Sam (or the foreign equivalent of your choice). Your status in society changes in very real legal terms. Boons and restrictions alike are endowed. Rank has very real meaning and privelige in the military.

Budo is very personal and self-directed. You are not 'marrying' Hatsumi either figuratively or literally! He has a wife with whom I believe he is very happy. In budo, your status changes in your own eyes only (and perhaps a few fellow budoka), unless you intentionally seek to 'promote' yourself. Your rank has real meaning to you and you alone.

kimq
10th January 2003, 17:21
Originally posted by Shojin

In any event, someone who is really driven will find a good teacher, someone who is not serious will quit and someone who has no clue will train in whatever just for fun anyway. So I guess it all works out in the end.

During the initial phases of my shidoshi's pursuit of ninjutsu, he was taken in by a fraud. Through the fraud he met his first Bujinkan teacher. Later he would learn the truth about the fraud and turn to the Bujinkan teacher for training. He does not look back on the fraud poorly - without the fraudulent training he wouldn't have met his Bujinkan teacher.

This kinda reinforces what you saying, in some respects.

Man, I'm just full of stories today. :)

kimq
10th January 2003, 18:38
Originally posted by Shojin
Can ya tell me the one about the three bears uncle Kim, can ya? Can ya? Please? :D

Are they named "Pride, Contempt, and Confusion?" You know, the antagonists of Budo? :cool:

kimq
10th January 2003, 19:29
Originally posted by Shojin


I thought they were wife-money-job?:look:

Look out! Thread jackers!

Wife-money-job all support my pursuit of Budo. It reminds me of a little motorbike addage:

"Ride to Live. Live to Ride."

Onmitsu
11th January 2003, 00:15
During the initial phases of my shidoshi's pursuit of ninjutsu, he was taken in by a fraud. Through the fraud he met his first Bujinkan teacher. Later he would learn the truth about the fraud and turn to the Bujinkan teacher for training. He does not look back on the fraud poorly - without the fraudulent training he wouldn't have met his Bujinkan teacher.
I would have to say that in some respect this happened to me as well. I wouldn't use the word 'fraud' but let's just say this person was of 'questionable character'. Still I owe this person a debt for having introduced me to Ninpo.

icynorth
11th January 2003, 03:11
This can be applied lots. Sometimes in reverse.