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fuwafuwausagi
5th January 2003, 05:14
Gang:

I have a question that is sort of off topic, but sort of on topic also.

Here it goes:

Does any one have information on the use of the "staff" in the church as a weapon?

Gene Williams
5th January 2003, 05:24
Hi, If you arm the church staff well and provide them with minimal training and a combat experienced leader, they could probably hold off a small, non-professional force for a short time. Unless, of course they are Baptists in which case they will probably turn the weapons on one another.

Ron Rompen
5th January 2003, 17:42
Depends where you are. If you arm the staff in a JEWISH church (synagogue) then you have a force that is ready to take over half the world.

Mind you, most of them are already armed, so at most you would have to resupply with ammo.....

(No, I have nothing but respect and admiration for the Jewish population of the world. I may disagree with the current actions of SOME of them, but on the whole they are a group to be admired)

Doug Daulton
5th January 2003, 20:53
Kevin,

Aside from Friar Tuck of Robin Hood fame, I am not aware of any references (actual or fictional) of Western churches encouraging the use of the staff (or any other weapons) by their adherants.

You may check with Geoffery Wingard who is active on this forum. He has done some interesting research on late 19th/early 20th century "muscular Christianity" and the influence of the YMCA on the introduction and propogation of Judo in the West. Perhaps, he can point you at related research regarding weapons traditions.

Harry Cook would be another excellent resource to get you started regarding Western staff fighting.

In Eastern churches, specifically Buddhist temples, popular fiction (at least as represented in the West) is rife with warrior monks who practice all sorts of weapons as part of their spiritual pursuits. I assume these are based in historical fact, but cannot speak with authorty to this point.

Regards,

fuwafuwausagi
6th January 2003, 05:13
Doug Daulton wrote:

Aside from Friar Tuck of Robin Hood fame

My reply:

Strictly as an FYI, Friar Tuck was a compellation character as Robin Hood himself may have been. One of the few historical things we are relatively sure of is that Friars were not around during Robin Hoods time frames.

As to the rest, I thank you for a sincere reply.

Wishing you the peace and serenity a life time of martial arts practice may bring,

fuwafuwausagi
6th January 2003, 05:20
Ron wrote:

Depends where you are. If you arm the staff in a JEWISH church (synagogue) then you have a force that is ready to take over half the world.

My reply:

If you review the assaults on the Jerusalem church from 65-70 AD your words are born out.

Considering all that has gone on, and the few relics I ahve been able to examine it seems clear to me there was most likely a group of followers that were highly skilled with the staff; I hope to yet uncover formal educational material from the churches of the period indicating training in the matters of war.

Regards,

tetsu
6th January 2003, 15:26
Robin Hood Hypothesis: He was actually a Mongol with extensive Ninja training. His feathered cap may also have indicated training in White Crane.

Being a Friar, Tuck most likely used his staff for herding young boys into the church alcove.

I look forward to someone who can trace their lineage back to Robin Hood and/or Friar Tuck to speak on on these topics. Ron are you reading? (Referring to the other Ron not Rompen-san) :)

Itekomasu yo!
Johnathon Tetsu

Doug Daulton
6th January 2003, 16:15
Kevin,

Was this a gag post to begin with?

Mongo confused.

Doug

Doug Daulton
6th January 2003, 16:16
Johnathon TetsuJohnathon,

Is Tetsu actually your last name? If not, please use your actual last name to sign your posts.

Regards,

Gene Williams
6th January 2003, 22:51
Now, Tetsu, remember the 11th commandment,"Thou shalt not put thy rod in thy staff."

fuwafuwausagi
9th January 2003, 04:49
Doug wrote:

Kevin,

Was this a gag post to begin with?

Mongo confused.

Doug

My reply:

I did not intend for this to be a gag, and frankly I am confused why anyone would think so.

As an FYI, in general I do not troll, or posts "gags".

It was a serious inquiry. And stems from many lines of reason.

Why others chose to make sport of it is a bit beyond me.

Harry Cook
9th January 2003, 13:57
As far as I know the staff was the training weapon for the two handed sword (see Alfred Hutton's observations in Old Sword Play, 1892). Of course it was also used by the lower classes as a readily available weapon, so we have a situation very roughly similar to the oriental situation; one line of development from the warrior classes aimed at developing skills used on a battlefield etc, and another from that part of the civilian population who need some form of personal protection.
I have never seen any information on the clergy developing specific staff skills with the structure of the church, but there are some hints that the irish clergy of the celtic church did have some form of unarmed grappling methods which could be applied to various weapons. if such a thing existed, and the evidence is skimpy at best, then I think you need to look at a range of weapons sizes.
An excellent source of information on Western staff systems is Sidney Anglo's The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe, Yale University Press,2000.
Yours,
Harry Cook

Joseph Svinth
10th January 2003, 03:18
John Lagerwey's books are probably as good a place as any to start for research into Taoist uses of the staff. According to Lagerwey, one of the traditional uses of the staff (and associated star-walking exercises) was for exorcising demons, that sort of thing. Thus, one does battle with the carnal self rather than external foes.

You might also find useful material investigating the Muslims in China, as during the 18th century, there were many Muslim merchants and their bodyguards often did hsingi. Again, the concept is the thin line between the inner and outer jihads.

In China, ignore Shaolin and look west to Ta Er, where they really did have brass mirrors on the walls and racks of weapons in the great hall. Of course, it probably isn't coincidental that the abbot was usually a sibling of the Mongol Great Khan.

In Tibet, the dobdob used swords and such until the early 1900s, when they reequipped with Russian rifles. The Chinese shot them out 40 years ago, so I doubt much is left except perhaps in North India.

Christian clergy often used blunt iron implements as weapons. Thangbrand, for example, used a crucifix during his duels with pagans in Iceland, and Bishop Odo of Normandy used a mace. In both cases, the theory was that in this way, the clerics wouldn't violate prohibitions against shedding blood.

In South America, a Tiwanuku deity of drinking was the Staff God. (The relationship is probably that of stick-fighting entertainments in pre-modern festival settings. (Stick-fighting is well-nigh universal in pre-modern festival settings; even Robin Hood and Friar Tuck were, in part, designed to provide quarterstaff and archery amusements during church fundraisers.)

Anyway, take a look through the chronologies at http://ejmas.com/kronos/index.html , using the keyword "staff," and then backtrack the information through the bibliographies and links ("other online resources" at the same site. See also http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyframe.htm and at http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltframe.htm .


***

As for the other, anybody ever seen the reaction of a Marine NCO, pay grade E-6, to being called "Staff"?

fuwafuwausagi
11th January 2003, 04:07
I just wanted to thank Joseph Svinth and Harry Cook for their mature apporach to this thread. Gentlemen I shall endeavor to follow up on the links and information you have provided.

Very truly yours,