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Benjamin Peters
8th January 2003, 22:16
Phases in training can come and go, especially by the beginner. I believe this point has been talked about by Hatsumi-sensei before - that people can deviate from their training. As Bujinkan practioners, do you feel that elements of training in sports martial arts contribute much to your training. For instance how many of you actually drill your skills to a fine art; how many of you are over-compliant and oversensitive uke; how many of you can move in a dynamic-real-life-encounter as well as (say) a boxer or grappler does on the street/ring/dojo; what has sports training added to your dojo training? I feel that both contribute to each other (ie sport arts/martial arts and vice-versa). Thoughts?

BigJon
8th January 2003, 23:18
It depends the teacher in question, and what they want their students to be...Before I moved out here to MD, I cross trained in grappling, kickboxing, boxing, and Kali, as well as Budo taijutsu. I realize that the Bujinkan's arsenal is huge and it has enough in it to keep a serious practitioner occupied for a long time. Now since living here, I concentrate on Bujinkan arts. I do however go over old boxing/Kali drills, for warm ups and fitness. I think some artists get real jaded and think, "well I will never get knocked down. So why learn grappling/ground fighting?" , Or "If I go up against a boxer, I know enough hand strikes/blocks to defend myself..." WRONG! I believe those people are in serious trouble...when they do get knocked down to the ground, and the bubble bursts- it's ugly.

I think that sport training is very useful not only for "Modern" fighting, but for fitness. But the Bujinkan arts have survived so long because the techniques do work. It's just a matter of applying modern thinking to it. Would someone (if confronted by an attacker) drop back into classical Ichimonji? I hope not.


Jon Gillespie

Mike Passow
9th January 2003, 00:35
Good question Mr. Peters,

I always thought it an interesting challenge to go to someone else's school (of whatever style) and see if you can move as they do - and see how well you can adapt to it...

Then compare how a person from experience set "X" comes to your school and tries to fit in with what you and your teachers are working on that particular day.

It seems to me that most folks with training in both 'sport' arts and more 'classical' arts could adapt to almost any situation quite well.

Folks whose experience set ran ONLY in one or the other had a harder time. (The 'sport' background person tends to miss the details and the 'classical' background person tends to lack the verve.)

Just my observation... anyone else on this?




To Mr. Gillespie,


[i]Originally posted by Jon G.
Would someone (if confronted by an attacker) drop back into classical Ichimonji? I hope not.
Jon Gillespie

Mr. Gillespie, I like most of what you said - but I have got to bring up your other quote from the 'Challenges' thread.


Originally posted by Jon G.
I have heard stories of someone bringing two BJJ guys to "meet" with Nagato sense, let's just say Nagato dropped into classical Ichimonji...and **POW** The second BJJ guy left before he got hurt!
Jon Gillespie


There's some apparent [big phrase o' the day]cognitive dissonance[big phrase o' the day] here.

Yours in humor,

BigJon
9th January 2003, 03:17
Well I got caught for sure on that one. To my defense, after a barrage of phone calls, it was too late to edit it by the time i came back to my computer...

Oh well,

human being to the bone, Jon Gillespie

Benjamin Peters
9th January 2003, 03:23
Originally posted by Mike Pasow
It seems to me that most folks with training in both 'sport' arts and more 'classical' arts [if one were to apply those labels in the sense that I suspect Mr. Peters is doung] could adapt to almost any situation quite well.

Folks whose experience set ran ONLY in one or the other had a harder time. (The 'sport' background person tends to miss the details and the 'classical' background person tends to lack the verve.)

Mike, that's a great point. I tried to vocalize what you mentioned (that sports tend to add the verve while the classical background gives detail to artistry) - but you have hit the nail on the head.

Personally, I think a balance in training skills is necessary. What I mean is - do you think that we should balance the forms we know with more sport-like drills?


Originally posted by Jon Gillespie
I cross trained in grappling, kickboxing, boxing, and Kali, as well as Budo taijutsu. I realize that the Bujinkan's arsenal is huge and it has enough in it to keep a serious practitioner occupied for a long time. Now since living here, I concentrate on Bujinkan arts. I do however go over old boxing/Kali drills, for warm ups and fitness.

Good point Jon! I guess the reason why I started the thread was to show the contrast as to what I see. At this point I would like to ask another question: Is it necessary to (at one time or another) to have training outside Bujinkan to be an effective fighter? I mean, training in arts like Bujinkan always leads to questions like how do I defend against a boxer etc because innately we know that sports arts are effective in the category they are in. Thoughts?


Originally posted by Shojin
I LOVE Ichimonji for use against kick boxers and no holds barred people. I use it in all out sparring all the time. And yes, the classical version. Why would anyone NOT want to use Ichimonji?

Minor rant......Hi Shojin, I can see how it's useful (getting out of the way with a pressure-point attack), but I can also see the draw backs (ie long range defense to a short range punch means you might line yourself up for another punch unknowingly, and timing is crucial sometimes you can't judge the timing until its too late). I feel that Dojo techniques sometimes need to be adapted to sports like boxing attacks because they didn't exist when things like ichimonji were invented. That's not to say it's useless, just didn't have that in mind when they began. Further point here is that I reckon that because sports are competitive (by their own existence), it creates an attitude of scrutiny in technique through physical action - not so much theory. That's not to say however, that the forms we practice are not based on battlefield combat......

Benjamin Peters
9th January 2003, 04:46
Ok Shojin, good question - it deserves a direct answer. Personally I would not use the position as in (perhaps) a situation because it does not afford mobility.

Ichimonji in my opinion provides stability, as its nature is to ensure a steady base from which techniques can be launched on a field/hill. I think Wally Jay's books refer to the stability vs mobility stance positioning. Take a look at boxers and judo players, you could argue their stances are mainly short (feet closer than a depp ichimonji) by design and in action and defense. I guess the fact that you use it in sparring NHB and kickboxers proves me wrong though :(


Originally posted by Shojin


Hi,

just a quick note, I LOVE Ichimonji for use against kick boxers and no holds barred people. I use it in all out sparring all the time. And yes, the classical version. Why would anyone NOT want to use Ichimonji?

Regards,

Tamdhu
9th January 2003, 15:44
but I can also see the draw backs (ie long range defense to a short range punch means you might line yourself up for another punch unknowingly, and timing is crucial sometimes you can't judge the timing until its too late

Getting out of the way of a punch is never a bad idea, in my opinion. If you end up further out than you thought you would, you're still in a place where you can look and see what's coming next or get something between you and the attacker and get the heck outa Dodge. You might align your body to his in such a way with that sort of distance as to entice a kick as surely as a skilled magician 'forces' you to pick the card he wants you to, and then respond creatively. Maybe you entice him to punch and check his progress with a stop kick to the knee or groin. Maybe not. Maybe lot's of things!

What I'm trying to say is that there's a lot more to Bujinkan training than settling back in your favourite kamae and hoping for the best.

It's also not a game where you square off and see if you can 'beat' the attacker. That can be good once in a while to help develop/experience the 'verve' mentioned earlier in the thread, but I wouldn't make it a regular meal. That whole "Okay tough guy, show me what you can do" attitude is missing the point entirely. That kind of thinking can have you playing a game while the other guy is actually fighting for his life and/or trying to kill you.

Just thoughts.

Benjamin Peters
9th January 2003, 21:42
Originally posted by John Clayton

Getting out of the way of a punch is never a bad idea, in my opinion. If you end up further out than you thought you would, you're still in a place where you can look and see what's coming next or get something between you and the attacker and get the heck outa Dodge.

Hi John, sure that's the theory, but again I feel that ichimonji isn't a mobile kamae. We train such that it is, but again in my opinion, it isn't by design a mobile position. What you mention about evasion as a defense (from ichimonji) is surely the prelude to the consequence I spoke of earlier - that you can align yourself to the point where you get hit again. Have a read of Shojin's first last post (first paragraph), I've provided it below, and you'll see my point:


Originally posted by Richard Ray

I would go to these people who loved hard core UFC type sparring and say lets spar and in that environment, I would try my Ninpo. The first time I used Ichimonji, I was knocked our COLD!

It went something like this, a student of mine, a rather large fellow came in with a left jab, I did the 45 thing and lowered my lead hand, he came right behind that with a right cross and I faded back deeper at which time I was REALLY deep in ichi. He did a shuffle step and followed up with another cross and it was lights out! As I woke up I sen him standing over me with head gear and gloves saying, come on' ready?...

Richard, thanks for the most informative post. I find it interesting you were able to test out your skills in a 'NHB' type environment. It's ruthless I'm sure, I'll have to trust you on that one. I must say though, that even though classical jo/chu/ge-dan ichimonji (short or long) may be to most a mobile position, I feel that other positions are even more mobile. My feeling is that these mobile positions allow for fluid motion such that mobility can bring stability if defense or attack. I do accept your points though, although I don't feel it's best to 'force' a certain theory or style into your system (body), rather find what is most natural, most combat effective and most dynamic. The context in which inchimonji no kamae was created must also be considered ie the style of attack way-back-when, and perhaps even the terrain. Thanks for the contributions!:smilejapa

Tamdhu
9th January 2003, 22:01
I salute him (Richard) for jumping into the Pit of Doom to test his knowledge, but the details given don't strike me as anything I'd hold up as proof of anything other than one man's experience at one time in his training.

I find the experiences of Hatsumi, his Shihan and many western instructors and students to be a lot more convincing. I have found so far that things that 'don't work' for me at one point in my training often start showing signs of life at another.

I don't yet feel I have the confidence based on experience and time in the art neccessary to start mixing, matching and 'throwing out' ideas that I think don't work. Rather, I am constantly on the lookout to see if some of the things that aren't working very well for me are, in fact, working for others. More often than not I find this to be the case, and for now I'm happy to keep working on figuring out what I'm doing WRONG to make them 'not work'!

Benjamin Peters
9th January 2003, 23:09
I find the experiences of Hatsumi, his Shihan and many western instructors and students to be a lot more convincing. I have found so far that things that 'don't work' for me at one point in my training often start showing signs of life at another.

I don't yet feel I have the confidence based on experience and time in the art neccessary to start mixing, matching and 'throwing out' ideas that I think don't work. Rather, I am constantly on the lookout to see if some of the things that aren't working very well for me are, in fact, working for others. More often than not I find this to be the case, and for now I'm happy to keep working on figuring out what I'm doing WRONG to make them 'not work'!

Hi John, good point. I do understand your perspective.

Having contributed to the deviation in topic, I'd like to ask here: do you guys do drills (say like Judo players who do uchikomi; repeated balance taking, entry into, but not executing the technique itself until the final repitition) with things like taisabaki, wrist throws, projections etc etc, or components of? If so, please explain.

As we have discovered, breaking techniques down into components helps us understand it, but how many of us train with the components as in Judo and their uchikomi drills (?)

Benjamin Peters
10th January 2003, 00:32
Hi Rick, it's great you combine sparring with your traditional training. Can I ask, do you know of any Genbukan instructor here, Japan or anywhere else that utilizes drills and the aspect of uchikomi as a training method per se? It will be good to get a perspective of how they approach such training methods. I mean, in Judo uchikomi, you see balance taking entry and on the final rep the execution. As ninpo isn't a sport, its action is much broader and detailed. I guess that's why I ask: How do we use to our best advantage, sport like drills in a non-sport environment?

ps I do believe your scenario and effectiveness of ichimonji-no-kamae. In fact, you've inspired me to go further into my training! gassho - :smilejapa

Benjamin Peters
10th January 2003, 04:07
what's uchi komi?

Uchikomi is a kind of repetitive practice phenomenon most commonly found in Judo. It is the practice of quick repeated entry/balance taking to the point where an opponent can be thrown, then stopping, resetting original positions, then doing the same. This repeated for a certain number of times (say 9), then on the 10th execution, the throw is executed. The point being that entry and balance taking are difficult parts to master and that it is imperitive to ensure ability to actually 'do' a technique.



Give me a specific example of what you mean as far as "sport drills" nd how you feel it may not mix with traditional training. I have covered this before in various threads. It is something I have spent allot of time studying.

My first love is sparring (not point sparring stuff) and functional training. As far as kata I like the henka approach better than the strict approach. In my training, I do what I need to do i.e am required to do, then I do what I feel I need to to make it useable. Many people don't agree with me and that's fine. many people like to tow the line and just follow the guy in front of them and that too is fine. But I will tell you something, those people NEVER put their self in a position to test or prove their "opinions", if they did it would all fall apart.

In terms of sports drills, I meant to refer to uchikomi type practice; where you will evade a strike and take balance, then repeating; or even combination work with shuto/shikanken etc. You are right, many don't experience - they tend to just criticize.

I actually agree with you in that it adds to training and the understanding of the method. Traditional and drills DO mix.




I would take a Judo person over any Ninpo person who does not spar in an empty hand encounter. Do I expect that statement to sit well with some people? Nope, do I care? Not really... It is the truth. Even though Ninpo has a larger arsenal, it is of no use unless you train it against someone who is fighting back and that's the bottom line. SO MANY people make excuses, we are too dangerous, I train for life and death yada yada..

You see it is all word games, back and forth, it's useless, only direct experience is truth. Just jump into the water and train, empower yourself then you will knw, no one no matter what they say can sway you once you yourself experience truth.

Too true - if I were a betting man, my money would go to the Judo man. Competition allows for at least a better understanding of dynamic fighting. It's very hard if training tradional alone, as it does not accommodate this understanding as well as competitive practice.

Mike Passow
10th January 2003, 07:42
Well I guess you'll have to sign me up for the Shojin Appreciation Society after that last post. Excellent.

(Mr. Ray, what safety equipment do you use for your stick work? Different methods for different drills?)

A gentleman I know who teaches Rickson Gracie style BJJ told me about a school further north from them. They, too, were teaching BJJ - only they were just teaching it. Just 'do this' and then your opponent 'does this' and then 'you counter with this' - very kind of - kata oriented. There was no time to play, to explore, to test it. No sparring! "That's just dead training," the gentleman stated, shaking his head.

"I don't need faith - I have experience." - Joseph Campbell
a personal motto of mine.

Yours,
Mike Passow
Wausau, WI

Tamdhu
10th January 2003, 17:33
Seeing as you don't put any faith in what I have said and I say Ichi works, and you say you trust Hatsumi et.al are you saying they say ichi doesn't work? I don't get it.

The snippet that Benjamin quoted from your post ("The first time I used Ichimonji, I was knocked our COLD!") left me with the impression that he was citing that as evidence for ichimonji not being useful in NHB or whathaveyou. I may have misread his intended point entirely. My statement was simply that one man's experience at one time in his training is hardly proof of anything. I'm pretty sure that you would agree.

I was taking an issue with his use of the quote, not expressing a lack of 'faith' in ichimonji or your martial experience and insight. Clearly, after the quote in question, you went on to elaborate at great length what you had learned since that experience.

All better smoochy smoochy?

; )


In the end I think we should all trust OUR OWN EXPERIENCE. My experience and ability, Hatsumi's experience and ability have little to do with YOU or anyone else being able to do anything. We all are responsible for our own ability and knowledge.

Here Ye and Cheers to That!