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Jim London
12th January 2003, 05:13
Hello,

I recently purchased Dave Lowry's book "Bokken". Now I have been reading it with interest as a compliment to my other training and I came to the two man kata.

The thing is in these kata, Dave Lowry steps aside then turns his back on his uke as part of a way to avoid a blow. Then continues the turn and cuts the uke.

I personally do not like to turn my back on the proverbial 4 feet of razor sharp steel.

Does anyone know the history of this type of movement? Is there a philisophical or practical basis? Perhaps someone could refer me to a video of these movements, as the pictures may leave a lot to interpretation.

Maybe there is a timing aspect to this that I am also missing.

Thanks in advance.
Jim London.

Daishi
12th January 2003, 06:24
Mr. Lowry

As my sensei quoted me once, even the smallest tenkai-ashi in aiki-jutsu (or empty handed I suppose) is considered huge in kenjutsu. i think off hand without seeing the particular technique you are referring to, any action of turning your back on a "live" (or otherwise unchecked blade) would be a rather bad idea. I am certainly not saying this cannot be done, but I can say that any form of tenkan or pirhouette should not be done by a novice. I have noticed, after three years of training empty hand (aiki-jutsu) that timing with swords (or any weapons) is incredibly more complicated. As has been amply proven to me by numerous experiences with senior students. on the other hand, my sensei can fight me onehanded, from a crane stance, (I'm not joking) and soundly destroy me. I would have to see the actual form to judge (imperfectly) whether it could be done. By no means do I claim to be an expert of any sort, but maybe I can offer a semi informed opinion. So maybe I can answer nothing, but I can give my opinion on everything (or so I've been told).




Dale Heisler

Ka1yama
12th January 2003, 07:37
I've heard that the sabaki from Yagu ryu contain a yoko arruki (spelling) type movement where the tori crosses one leg ovr the other to bring his position towards the ukei at a 45 degree angle. From here uncrossing the feet turns the tori's back to the ukei. From the material I saw, this movement was done as part of a demonstration of footwaork and sectoring in all directions.

Neil Stewart

Dan Harden
12th January 2003, 14:21
The book you are reffering to is not a weapons art at all. It is not Yagyu-It is Aiki-ken all the way. Thats why you see the pointy finger sillyness and the ill-logical movement. To be clear Aiki weapons are not classical Japanese weapons at all.
Mr. Lowry has never said it was Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Every one assumed it was do to implication of his "other" pursuits.

Cheers
Dan

Jim London
12th January 2003, 16:27
Thanks Dan,

The Aiki would explain a lot. In Dave Lowry's intro he thanks the Aiki people that helped him with the book.

To the authors credit, he does emphasis at the beginning of the book that just picking up a bokken and twirling it around does not make you a member of an ancient ryuha.

Could anyone suggest a good book on ken-jutsu movements?

Thanks
Jim London.

Cady Goldfield
12th January 2003, 23:02
Originally posted by Jim London
Could anyone suggest a good book on ken-jutsu movements?

If you can score a 3-volume set of Otake Risuge's "Deity and the Sword," that's classical kenjutsu to the "nth" degree. It's out of print, but you might find the set on E-Bay (where, because of its rarity and reputation for being a seminal study of sword, it commands high bids).

Ric Flinn
13th January 2003, 02:25
Originally posted by Jim London

Could anyone suggest a good book on ken-jutsu movements?


Never seen one yet. I've read lots of great books on iai and kenjustu, but not one of them effectively conveys "kenjutsu movements" or ever will; there's too many subtleties. Don't bother trying to learn from a book, you'll just be on your way to solidifying bad habits. For good books I'd say start with the koryu books by Skoss or Draeger. "Diety and the Sword," though great books I'm sure, would likely be lost on those not initiated to TSKSR.

Ric Flinn
13th January 2003, 02:31
Originally posted by Dan Harden
Thats why you see the pointy finger sillyness

Now I'm well aware that Mr. Lowry's "Bokken" book is not related to Yagyu Shinkage Ryu at all, but I was thinking that YSR actually did the pointy finger thing. Maybe I'm thinking of something else?

Ka1yama
13th January 2003, 03:07
sorry for the unintelligetn drivell in my first reply, "my brain was the consistency of alpo" as another e-budo member said before. I was thinking and could the movement described above be for addressing multiple attackers? Sort of fluttering the the limited space that such an occasion would provide?
Neil Stewart

Dan Harden
13th January 2003, 03:09
On any of our best days we will go after fingers, hands, inside or under wrists, inside lacings and arms, inside of legs, inside of Suigetsu sliding up to throat and face. I cannot count the times I have had sore fingers, a few broken ones, etc etc. As well as the inside of students wrists bruised. I have even had students purposely try to save their wrist and fingers only to get it anyway.
After years of that-hitting the unarmored "outside" of things seems like a gimme.
I recall several other people, including Ellis, Meik, Karl, James and others writing of similar experiences with fingers and such.
Extending anything is pretty much right up there with things "you don't want to do."
The simplest answer is that there is simply no need. Heck I'm like every other guy where I wore-in my Kendo gloves into a proper grip. But I don't see anything sticking out I don't want to be sticking out-except my sword.

Anyway Just like in the military today you want to be a squared-away package; neat, trim, with a minimum of loose ends and things sticking out.


Dan

Jim London
13th January 2003, 03:34
Ric Flinn wrote:
Don't bother trying to learn from a book, you'll just be on your way to solidifying bad habits

I am in complete agreement with you. However it is very interesting that I made this point over on the BJJ discussion area and was heavily flamed for it.

There are a whole group of people out there that are working without a local instructor, teaching their own classes, reading books and watching videos. Even if they have one seminar each 3 or so months, their total hours of received instruction is paltry by any standards.

I personally have a large collection of books and enjoy reading and seeing others ideas of the same movements I learned.

Jim London.

DCPan
13th January 2003, 17:55
Originally posted by Ric Flinn


Now I'm well aware that Mr. Lowry's "Bokken" book is not related to Yagyu Shinkage Ryu at all, but I was thinking that YSR actually did the pointy finger thing. Maybe I'm thinking of something else?

Yeah...I saw a picture of the YSR soke in Kendo Nippon...the grip is called something like "The Dragon's Mouth" in kanji.

Rather than pointing finger though, it was more like forming a "C" with your thumb and index finger....

As for why, I don't know.

Arman
13th January 2003, 18:10
While I am not familiar with the picture you mentioned regarding "turning your back" to your opponent, in YSR there is a part of a particular kata where the uchi performs a twisting motion with his upper torso that briefly exposes his side/back. The point is tactical, because the opponent is duped into attacking what he thinks is an opening, or weak point.

As far as I know, however, the book you reference in your post has nothing to do with the YSR Mr. Lowry is known to have studied.

Regards,

Arman Partamian

Arman
13th January 2003, 18:19
As for the pointy finger thing, many exponents of YSR sometimes do tend to extend their right and left index fingers. Some think it is due to the way they hold the sword. IMO, however, it seems like someone started doing it and others followed, and then it became habit. Not everyone who studies YSR sticks those fingers out, but you will see it at times. Check out the Skoss' Koryu Bujutsu, volume one, I believe. Even in the YSR photograph in there I think one of the practioners has his fingers pointing (or curled, as Mr. Flinn stated).

I haven't looked at it in awhile, but in that photograph I think you will also see one of the practitioners in the middle of the twisting motion I was talking about above.

Regards,

Arman Partamian

Charles Mahan
13th January 2003, 18:23
With regards to sticking out the index fingers, I no nothing about YSR, but I can make a semi-educated guess.

My guess is that the sticking out of the index fingers is a training method which is designed to make it clear to the student that the index finger plays little part in the grip. I suspect once the student has a rock solid habbit of sticking out the index fingers, the instructor will probably then have the student wrap the finger back around the tsuka, trusting that the habbit of sticking the finger out will keep the student from using it even when it is wrapped around the tsuka.

Just a guess.

David T Anderson
13th January 2003, 20:05
Originally posted by Charles Mahan

My guess is that the sticking out of the index fingers is a training method which is designed to make it clear to the student that the index finger plays little part in the grip.

This is exactly correct, at least as far as my training goes. Sensei tells us that after 10 or 20 years, he won't mind if we let our index fingers curl down a bit onto the tsuka... It certainly becomes a habit to stick that index finger out when holding anything, but I noticed on the one occasion I did some bottle-cutting with my sword, the index finger automatically comes down to grip at the last second. Whether this is 'proper' or not I don't know, but sometimes instinct does lead you right.

Brently Keen
13th January 2003, 21:35
I understand the practice of "sticking out" the index finger as simply being an indicator of the sharp edge of a blade when using a bokuto or shinai.

As Dan has stated clearly, in real kenjutsu you'd never want to "stick out" your fingers - or anything else. In modern practice however - even by many "koryu" instructors as well as gendai ones, most are not training anymore for practical sword skills and since no one really intends to use their swords in combat - since their training is primarily for other purposes such as self-development, simply academic or leisure practice. The result is that priorities have shifted and so has the emphasis of certain practical details. This could explain the habit for many practitioners and styles - namely their practice has lost a measure (or heaping) of practicality.

In aikido what is practical is also seen differently - much is made about bokken not being used for combat, but simply for improving "taijutsu" skills. Therefore if aikido-ken is primarily for improving one's taijutsu, then it's seen as practical for that - even when or if their toho (sword method) is totally impractical for sword fighting from a classical, koryu perspective.

In aikido, gripping and handling of the sword is typically viewed as simply another way of gripping and handling the limbs of one's training partners, and/or as an exercise for training certain body movements, extending/developing ki, or even developing heightened awareness and sensitivity skills. Pointing the index fingers while holding the bokken shows or illustrates how to obtain leverage by gripping progessively with the smaller fingers and pressing with the index knuckle (in contrast to the weaker grip that pinches mostly with the thumb and index finger), and/or it might also illustrate the "flow" and direction in which one should "extend ki", direct the mind, and/or apply one's physical energy/momentum/force.

Likewise gendai or koryu instructors may simply point their index finger(s) to stress or emphasize the importance of the orientation and direction of the blade while doing kata, or any other movements with a fukuro shinai or bokken, and they do so as a method of instruction. That teacher himself may know well what he's doing and in actual use would never hold his sword in such a manner - IOW he wasn't showing them how to hold the sword, but rather how to weild it.

But, if over the course of time, such holding the sword with index fingers extended also becomes a habit - it could be a dangerous one if in his conscious effort to (habitually) show how to weild the sword, he either forgets himself or forgets to remind his students that such pointing is not a good idea nor is it the right way to hold a sword. Because students try so hard to unquestioningly imitate and copy their instructors they naturally wind up developing similar habits, and may not ever realize the resoning behind such "pointing of the fingers" such is how bad habits have even become "stylistic traits" of some schools/instructors. It only takes one generation for some small details like this to be lost or overlooked, even by headmasters. They might've just copied their instructor for years, never wondering or questioning why and just assumed their own reasons for doing so - or never intending to ever personally fight with swords, or to teach their students to actually fight with swords - such details may simply become much less important to them, or overlooked altogether.

However personally, I think if one is studying koryu (or even gendai budo), then even if you never intend to use a sword, you should train as if you were - otherwise, what's the point? Even if we never fight shinken-shobu, a duel with real swords - or even spar with bokuto, shouldn't we learn to pay attention to details, and not carelessly present openings and opportunities to our opponent(s)? Shouldn't we strive to exercise self-control, carefully disciplining ourselves to move and act appropriately, and to likewise manage our affairs prudently?

I can say from my own personal experience, that I'm still far from reaching that ideal of mastery in either budo or life - and that is all the more reason why such details are of vital importance in bujutsu training - if nothing else, they serve as reminders of important principles. Sokaku Takeda once said:

"Even an expert can be defeated by a layman, if the expert is negligent"

The next time you catch yourself, or someone else pointing their index fingers or otherwise presenting some opening, make a mental note to yourself about it, but before you pat yourself on the back for noticing some weakness, first ask yourself if there might be a justifiable reason or context for what you see. If you immediately dismiss everyone who "makes a negligent error" by pointing their fingers or some such thing, you may miss the point they are trying to teach, which may not be how to properly hold the sword, but how to properly weild it. Which direction is the edge pointing and moving? It just might be of real importance to note the way the index fingers are pointing, or what they are pointing out. Here is a principle:

Failure to appreciate or notice what else might be being shown, because you're hung up or put off by something trivial or external (ie: something that is being shown) could be negligence on your part.

Most classical training and instruction consists of both omote and ura teachings, the "secrets" however are often implicitly hidden, contained, and transmitted within the obvious or explicit, but simply are overlooked or unseen by those who don't know how to look - because of ego, ignorance or whatever they never grasp the the real teachings, the principles, or how to apply them, some will always get hung up on the forms and appearances of things failing to see the forrest for the trees, or the trees in the forrest.

A while back there was a lot of interesting discussion about whether to block, parry or receive your opponents sword with the edge or the back of the blade. There are pros and cons for both ways - and different schools have their own preferences, but I would wager none of them would ever advocate actually receiving with your extended index finger(s)!

Sorry for the tangent, this thread began with questions about turning one's back in some exercises in Dave Lowry's Bokken book, and/or Yagyu Shinkage-ryu kata. I don't know enough about YSR to comment - but I believe there is a teaching in the Yagyu tradition that has to do with letting your mind be like a gourd on water...

In general, I'd just assume that what you see, might have a reason, feel free to question it, but don't immediately dismiss it or get hung up on it - ask yourself if something else might be going on - if things might not be as they appear at first - or if there might be a particular reason or context for what you see. And if you would like to better understand something in Mr Lowry's book in particular, just address your questions to him directly, he frequents this board from time to time, and I'm sure he could give a much better answer than any of us.

Just my 20 cents!

Brently Keen

Dan Harden
13th January 2003, 22:09
Hmmm.....
Twenty years to learn a grip? Wow. Imagine how long it takes to learn an art. Those Samurai must have all died.:D
Just kidding with ya Dave

Seriously though, styles aside I learned proper grip without ever sticking my finger out. All of my students have as well. It just isn't that hard. No one around me ever learned anything but proper grip and they did just fine when it came to cutting and controlling a blade.

Dan

Dave Lowry
14th January 2003, 01:39
All,
Just returned from a trip out of town and was surprised to see a small book of mine was the subject of a discussion here. I must be uncharacteristically brief; a chicken is roasting in the oven for dinner and warrants my attention momentarily.

As others have iterated, the training manual I did for the bokken was not in any way illustrative of or instructional in techniques or kata of Yagyu Shinkage ryu. It was meant as a modest guide for those aikidoka looking to expand their skills with the bokken as it is most commonly used in aikido dojo.

The technique I demonstrated that involved turning one’s back on an opponent is principally an exercise in issoku-tenkai. Taking a step, then pivoting 180o. I don’t know if it is combatively effective. I’d be loathe to try it. I do know this movement is very good for developing the skills of timing, entering, and agile movement. It need not be confined to aikido. I have practised it many times in the karate dojo, stepping into and then around a front kick or punch. One’s timing and distancing must be perfect to make it work, which makes it so challenging and enjoyable to practise. (I would advise anyone doing so to begin against a very slow and controlled attack.)

Developing the freedom to move at will against an attack, even to the extent of turning one’s back on it, is not an automatic endorsement of doing so under exigent circumstances. The reader might consider, however, the applications of such movement when faced with more than a single opponent. He might also contemplate, as I have, something a koryu teacher told me years ago. “Tenkai,” he said phlegmatically and without further expansion, “has more practical application to the bujutsu of the battlefield than any other aspect of aikido.”

Cordially,

Jim London
14th January 2003, 02:06
Hello Lowry-Sensei,

Thank you for the reply, very informative.

I look forward to posting more on this forum given the overall quality of the discussion generated by this question.

Jim London.

Brently Keen
14th January 2003, 02:16
...something a koryu teacher told me years ago.“Tenkai,” he said phlegmatically and without further expansion, “has more practical application to the bujutsu of the battlefield than any other aspect of aikido.”


And to think it's always the tenkan movement in aikido that is criticized. Hmm...

Doh! If I found myself on a battlefield with one or more enemy warriors descending upon me with spears, swords, and the like intent on my imminent destruction my first thought would be to turn tail and run too!

On second thought, there might also be more to that comment than meets the eye at first...

Thanks for chiming in, Lowry-san. It's always nice to hear from you.

Brently Keen

rupert
22nd January 2003, 00:44
Originally posted by David T Anderson
This is exactly correct, at least as far as my training goes. Sensei tells us that after 10 or 20 years, he won't mind if we let our index fingers curl down a bit onto the tsuka...

I have found that extending the finger in swordwork helps my Aikido / Jujutsu techniques. Yes, I am one of those who only practises swordwork to improve empty hand techniques. And, as you say, after a long time, after you get the feeling, it is no longer necessary, but for me it lingers on as a habit.

In empty hand stuff, the 'pointy finger' provides direction for hand / body movement and turning - I guess it is the same with the sword. However, it is probably not necessary at all - afterall - you don't see baseball players extending fingers to perfect their swings. But then again, I have always done it in table tennis, long before I started martial arts. Maybe other sports use it too - tennis / golf / badmington?

Rupert Atkinson

rick46341
23rd January 2003, 19:18
never turn your back it take you out of the vision path thats a bad habit. Rick Duke

Aikilove
24th January 2003, 13:20
Originally posted by rick46341
never turn your back it take you out of the vision path thats a bad habit. Rick Duke
Well... what if turning your back on someone implies seeing more people closing by? You, by now, already know where the first guy is...

Jakob

rick46341
24th January 2003, 16:18
I thought he was talking one on one. Rick Duke

Aikilove
24th January 2003, 16:43
"...look at them as a single foe and so fight on!..."

:D