striking with the tsuka?

[lemming]

Recently I got a chance to observe some European martial arts resurrectionists(?) training in what I'm assuming is their interpretation of the classical Western sword styles, and noticed that when they were close they would attempt to strike with the pommel(? base of?) of the sword. Which made me wonder if there was a similar element in classical Japanese sword styles.

Anybody know? Or feel qualified to guess? To be clear, not referring to actual combat where they may have attempted such given the opportunity, but instead wondering if it was actually practiced or trained for.

Thanks for your time.

[Charles Mahan]

So the scenario is that you are so close that you cannot strike with your weapon? I think there are two basic ways to deal with this scenario if your weapon is already drawn. Some of the koryu would go for some form of jujutsu maneuver, a throw or something of the like. One of the easiest answers is simply to fix your distance so that you can cut your opponent.

There are several techniques for close in combat within Eishin Ryu. Most of which involve creating the proper distance before cutting. One of them however assumes the sword is still in the saya and involves stepping into your opponent to further decrease the distance, pulling the sword, saya and all, up to the level of your mouth then driving the tsuka-gashira straight into your opponents face. This is mostly an effort to stun your opponent and breakup his incoming attack. It also buys you time and is likely to buy you a little distance.

For the most part though it is about gaining the proper distance or finding ways to use the sword in close. The 5th kata in Toho comes to mind.

So I guess in summary... Yes there are ways of dealing with close in scenarios, but most of them involve cutting your opponent not clobbering him.

[Brently Keen]

I sure might, it really depends on the situation, but my first choice would typically be use the pointy end or edge!

Brently Keen

[chrismoses]

In Shinto Ryu we have one kata that uses the tsuka to strike the attacker, and another that uses the saya/ kojiri to strike an attacker from behind. In our freeform work, it is also pointed out where you could move in to strike with the tsuka when you lock up.

I have also seen a style that has a whole series of kata for 'indoors' where it would be inapropreate to draw the sword. I wish I could remember the name right now, I have a video of my school's 1999 enbu with them. They utilized several strikes with the tsuka and saya, never drawing the sword out. Slightly off topic, they also had a kata for when you are sleeping and suspect someone is in your room. They slid the saya down to the last 1/3 of the sword and used it to 'feel' around the room. Suddenly they would yank the sword our of the saya, letting the saya make a noise on the floor as it fell, and then strike at the 'fooled' attacker going for the saya. Way cool, anyone know who I'm talking about?

[Charles Mahan]

Originally posted by Bobar57
At least there're two katas in MJER Iaido that use the tsuka to strike.
One is to strike the hand of the enemy while he is grasping the sword,then you draw,while rising.The other one is aimed to hit the enemy in the jaw or any vulnerable part in the upper body while you raise and draw and cut vertical.

Just out of curiosity which kata were you referring too?

[CEB]

In addition to the Eishin strategies already mentioned for when the sword is still in the saya. In tachi uchi no kurai, hachihonme ( we call it zetsumyoken, with the way MJER has splinter over the years I don't know if this name is universal or not. I just know what we do) the sword is out but the opponents have clashed. You come up under his sword and zot him in the head with the tsuka gashira.


Also the striking with the tsuka found its way into seitei kata

Yonhonme, tsuka ate - hit in the face from tate hiza
Hachihonme, Ganmen ate - hit in the face from standing position
Jupponme, Shiho giri - turn tsuka sideways and smackem

[Charles Mahan]

The one I was referring to is one of the Oku waza techniques. It's number 6 I think. Yuki Chigai? I just did it last night, you think I'd remember. I'm not aware of anything in that kata that notes it as an "indoor" kata. It would work really well in a hallway, but it would also work really well in a narrow pathway between two walls outdoors.

The 5th Tate Hiza waza Oroshii also uses the tsuka-gashira to strike an opponent on your right who is reaching for your tsuka, but I don't think either of these scenarios really apply to the situation Lou was reffering too.

I think he's more interested in scenarios where the sword is already drawn, and I can't think of any scenarios off the top of my head where kata proscribe using the tsuka to strike if the sword is already out of the saya. Much better to just cut your opponent.

[EDIT]
Ahh. I have not yet begun the Tachi Uchi no Kurai sets. I'll have to take your word for those.

[lemming]

Thanks. I was picturing possibilities where you're too close to cut, but maybe you could give him a good smack in the mouth as you step out to cut back in, as kuzushi or something. But I'm not looking to play what-ifs or you-could-insteads. Just wondering if such a thing was trained for in the good old days.

Again, thanks.

[CEB]

Yes the technique is in the 8th 2 man exercise from the set we call Tachi Uchi no Kurai. I don't know know exactly how old they are but I'm guessing that they are pretty old.

[Charles Mahan]

Here's an idea for you Lou. There is a principle built into a couple of our tate hiza techniques that may apply. Urokugaeshi and Namegaeshi, for those playing along at home. The idea is that you've come up from a seated position and turned to face your opponent only to find yourself to close to cut. One deep step back would buy you enough room to cut, so you take your left leg and step back and the moment your weight settles on your back leg you cut. In the process of stepping back and settling into the stance, you will have gained the distance needed to cut. This principle should be modifiable to meet most situations, at the very least it's a good place to start.

[Don Cunningham]

I don't think tsuka strikes are allowed in Zen Nippon Kendo Renmai. They certainly are not scoring strikes. When I practiced old style kendo with the Japanese police, however, they often used the tsuka strike to the face. This was usually right after blocking the opponent's strike with the shinai. It still didn't score, but it hurt like heck to be struck full in the men with the butt of the shinai.

[Charles Mahan]

Don was referring to Kendo shiai(I think that's the right word). He was referring to kata.

[CEB]

Close enough. Shiai is a tournament or contest. Don was probably just doing Ji Geiko, Free practice, sparring type of stuff.

[Don Cunningham]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be misleading. I trained in ZNKR kendo while living in Japan. There are no tsuka strikes in either kendo shiai (tournament) or in kendo kata.

I only took a couple of quick overview lessons in ZNKR iaido techniques, though, so I really can't speak to that subject with any authority. There probably are tsuka strikes in iaido.

I was specifically referring to tsuka strikes in old style kendo, sometimes called police kendo. From what I understand, the Japanese police still practice the pre-WWII version of kendo. At least, when I went one time to a kendo practice with the Kanagawa Prefecture Police, they weren't doing kendo anything like what we did at the Fujitsu company kendo team practices. Their practice session was much rougher and even included some foot sweeps and throws, as well as tsuka strikes.

Within a few minutes, I stopped practicing and just concentrated on trying to survive. While I guess they had some rules, it certainly seemed more like brawling with bamboo sticks than regular sport kendo.

One more quick note. I have heard the uke's attack to seoi-nage in Kodokan Judo's nage-no-kata described as if it is supposed to be an armed attack. That is, the uke attempts to strike tori directly on top of the head as if he were doing a one-handed tsuka strike. It may not be true or a judo myth, but I've heard this from several sources.

[Richard Elias]

In our system we have strikes with the tsuka from both in the scabbard and sword drawn.
Most make use of the kashira, but there are some that use the middle portion of the handle and even the tsuba. We also have techniques where you punch the attacker with your fist, the sword in hand, like a Sunday bar. Some are executed prior to the initial cut, some between cuts. Some are used as distractions, to delay or inhibit them from attacking, or to create distance. Basically all in preparation for a/another cut. We also use the tsuka to trap, lock and/or throw/drop the opponent, sometimes combined with cutting or cutting them after they’re down. There is also use of the scabbard for striking as well.