SCARS

[ericDZR]

is anyone here familiar with the SCARS fighting system?

http://www.scars.com

although it sounds like they have a couple good ideas, there also seems to be a whole lot of junk. i'm under the impression that it's just another marketing sceme. what are your thoughts?



[Edited by ericDZR on 08-28-2000 at 11:26 PM]

[Joseph Svinth]

For a glowing look at Jerry Peterson's SCARS system, see Herb Borkland's article at http://fightingarts.com/magazine/borklandscars.shtml .

[Rolling Elbow]

Good Old Scars and Mr. Peterson..,

Give me a break! Maybe you should ask the kung fu San Soo people what they think of his system. Believe me, they've got quite a bit to say! I am not in a position to really comment on the art as I have never taken part in any of its training, but what I have seen and experienced, is russian martial arts. If Peterson claims that Speztnad training (as he does in his site) is far inferior to SCARS training and that it is infact molded after it( due to Soviet spies in the 80's coming over and observing SCARS training), then you've got to wonder whether or not he is out to lunch. Sure, the American Navy Seals are the only combat troops that have develloped a 100% "scientific" combat system. Krav Maga, chinese special forces, Spetznad, and other elite forces are only operating on 15% system effectiveness (as he says) because they've gathered lose techniques and tried to fit them into a system. Simply put.., the man can advertise. If you train for high stress, you will be effective in just about any style. If you truly want to learn "scientific" principles, then don't be surprised if it takes a longer time period to truly understand combat principles and apply them under stress. If everything is bang bang bang all the time, can you really break down body mechanics and understand them? I am by no means an authority here, but I hope someone else who is, has a look at the site and comes up with a more detailed answer. So in short, SCARS may be good and Mr. Peterson may be talented.., but they aren't THAT good or THAT talented. There are other "scientific" systems around that would serve an individual just as well.

[ericDZR]

here are just some of the impressions i picked up from Herb Borkland's article and the website. mind you i have never met anyone who has trained in the system or seen the system first hand so these are just impressions from what i've seen on the internet.
ok i admit the "offensive mind set" sounds like a good idea and breaking down the system into a more "scientific" approach has it's merits but after checking out the website it sounds like a tv infomercial...on the internet. in addition the training seems incredibly irresponsible. for example, from Mr. Borkland's article:

"How tough is SCARS? Our camp had already lost two guys by lunchtime on the first day. One man broke his wrist. He wasn't used to being thrown, especially by someone who wasn't used to throwing."

that's not tough, that's poor and irresponsible training techniques. also teaching killing techniques, assuming they are as effective as they claim, to anyone with the cash shows a lack of ethics both on a business and a personal level. so while the system claims that individuals need to protect themselves with these techniques it doesn't teach any prison survival skills. considering how our legal system works, that's most likely where these guys would end up after maiming or killing their "attacker". the website is loaded with questionable information and that's why i'd like to hear from somebody with first hand knowledge of the system.

[Joseph Svinth]

If you think those are somewhat over the top, you should read the full page ads in "Soldier of Fortune." :o

But at five grand a week, I doubt too many folks on E-budo are going to have attended the training themselves. But if you do have that kind of disposable income, how about dropping me a line? I'll hook you up with some folks whose track records are indisputable, and probably save you some coin (and injuries) in the meantime.

[JS3]

"Jerry Peterson, who founded SCARS in 1987, yelled with military urgency. He served in the 173rd Airborne Charlie Company in Vietnam"

This is fom the "Mens Health" article.

I wonder how true it is??
My dad was with the 173rd Headquarters 66/67
and he told me that at that time all of Charlie Company was
either killed or severly injured.

Would like to see when he was there.
Just curious.

[Michael Morning]

Regarding SCARS, I've reviewed the site in the past and also read the article with interest. My own belief is that he must have something fairly serious to offer only for the fact that he deals with some "heavy hitters" (FBI, various police forces, SWAT, etc.). These types of individuals have usually seen everything and don't take well to much of the more gimmiky martial arts. He's also spent quite a bit of money setting up various scenario training rooms for specific agencies. If he was pushing a load of crap, he'd be found out and trounced by those in the know pretty quickly. And offering such expensive training places him in the unenviable position of having to constantly defend what he does from detractors.

On the other hand, a quick glimpse of the SAFTA website (http://www.navysealteams.com/Safta.htm) would have you believe that SCARS and Peterson are full of crap. They STRONGLY denounce his claims of having trained Navy SEALS (since SAFTA supposedly has documentation proving their own claim to SEAL training and site a complete lack of such documentation on Peterson's part).

Be this as it may, it is a well known fact that the military has trained in numerous martial arts over the years. It may be possible that Peterson conducted a special seminar at one point, but was never "picked up" as regular SEAL training. But having conducted that one seminar (if that is in fact what happened) would allow him to advertise "SEAL training" as a marketing tool for his system.

SAFTA is interesting, but I HATE their website. Last time I went into it, the first thing that popped up was something which read "Kick Ass with the Navy SEALs" :rolleyes:. That type of advertising is pretty pathetic and could only appeal to the lowest common denominator. Not some of the best folks to be learning serious techniques.

On a last note, I don't think that criticizing Peterson for teaching more deadly techniques is of any concern. His high-priced training is not going to pull in the average gang-banger. He teaches primarily government/police force agencies and his videos are merely primers for the live training (it's a requirement for live training that you have bought and studied the tapes). People such as the FBI, SWAT, and military need a wide variety of training - including lethal training - so Peterson wouldn't be doing right by his 5 grand fees if he didn't teach some seriously useful technique.

I guess someone is just going to have to cough up the money for the tapes and training to end the discussion ;)

[ericDZR]

interesting point of view Michael. i've noticed over the years that some instructors who have taught a couple of SEAL members will advertise themselves as providing offical SEAL training as well, but i was also under the impression that hand-to-hand combat is not a major goal of SEAL units and therefore most training is sought independently or in small units. (can anyone elaborate on this?)

as far as Mr. Peterson teaching deadly techniques to professionals is concerned, i do not have a problem with that. but i still disagree with teaching these techniques to any civilain with the cash. it's purely a profit making scheme in my opinion. similar to the instant self-help and financial schemes i've seen advertised on TV. many of these require purchasing tape/videos/info before being allowed to attend the seminars. the videos may be primer for the students but it's cash in the pocket for Mr. Peterson and SCARS is definatly targeting the lowest common denominator. as i said before, the entire website is laid out like an infomercial.

i also have to disagree with the idea that the pricetag will help to keep those of questionable character out of the program (cash certainly doesn't equal morals/ethics). but regardless of my opinions i would still like to hear from an "insider" since i doubt i could watch these guys in action or on video without paying a bit of cash.

thanks for the SAFTA url, i've been meaning to do a search for that site.

[Lewis Christopher]

I don't know about the SEALS, but most police DT instructors that I know laugh when they see Jerry's tapes. I know I did. As far as "lethal" tachniques, he isn't teaching any strikes that a Karate sensei or Kung Fu Sifu doesn't teach and Judo/Jujutsu teaches many more "lethal" chokes. SCARS is all entry level martial arts stuff that you could learn anywhere. I really laughed at the tapes when they blacked out the screen so you couldn't see what the demonstrators were doing, you could only hear them. The tape said they were doing techniques that were just too lethal to be seen. Give me a break. Junk!!!

[Son of Thunder]

Originally posted by JS3
"Jerry Peterson, who founded SCARS in 1987, yelled with military urgency. He served in the 173rd Airborne Charlie Company in Vietnam"

This is fom the "Mens Health" article.

I wonder how true it is??
My dad was with the 173rd Headquarters 66/67
and he told me that at that time all of Charlie Company was
either killed or severly injured.

Would like to see when he was there.
Just curious.

I don't know anything about SCARS or Peterson (or much else :D), but what I can say is that a unit can be classified as a total loss without every single soldier being dead. My grandfather's unit in WWII was classified as destroyed twice.



(BTW, these new smilies are the best!)
:saw:
:shadowmas:shadowmas:shadowmas

[Michael Morning]

I have to agree with Eric regarding SCARS looking like one long infomercial. Too true. That type of advertising really makes me gag. 'Course, as bad as it is I think SAFTA is even worse. I've known quite a few ex-military/special forces people in my day and many of them were pretty 'gung-ho', but these types of advertising ploys really take the cake. I think I would avoid them just on principle. Why contribut to what you most dislike?

One last note that urks me about the SCARS/SAFTA advertising is the notion that what they offer is soooooo far superior to anything that's come before. I'd say that's pretty absurd, regardless of what they teach, considering all those who've come before.

As for teaching civilians lethal technique, it is surprising that there wouldn't be a civilian version of the program and a law enforcement personnel version. Teaching someone fresh off the street "lethal" technique is risky since you never know who it is you're teaching. At least in the traditional dojo/dojang there's a seasoning period (usually of years) where an instructor can get to know his students before jumping into the serious stuff. I always made it a point in my schools to weed out the troublemakers long before they became senior students.

[Rhomyn Escalante]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JS3
[B]

My dad was with the 173rd Headquarters 66/67
and he told me that at that time all of Charlie Company was
either killed or severly injured.

Peterson was probably there with Charlie Co., but I can't remember what battalion he said he was with. And I thought it was '67/'68? Point is, how bad does everyone want to know? I can find out, just a phone call away. Charlie Co. 1st/503d was 'hurt' after "Junction City" and I think also during combat in the Iron Triangle during that time. But in '67 & '68 they were very 'healthy'. Let me know.

Rho Escalante. HHC 1/503Infantry, 173rd Airborne Brigade (Seperate), RVN 1967 & 1968.

Note: As far as his SCARS. Way behind the learning curve. Just fact. I have no (sic) opinion.

[JS3]

I may be mistaken
my dad was 2/503 and he was at Junction City
I'm just relating info 2nd hand and you know how that goes.
He said the no one "made it home" during the time that he was there. But he may have been thinking of a specific battle.
Just curious, I usually doubt claims like this when there used in advertising.


PS
welcome home

[Rhomyn Escalante]

Yeah. Your Dad probably meant that no one 'made it home' meaning that in his squad or maybe a fire team, but platoon and company wise- no. Now casualties were high, a hallmark of duty with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, and a company(s) (Charlie and/or Bravo, 2nd/503d, I believe) may of become under-strength, but they were always operational. I was serving with A Co. 1st/502nd Infantry, 101st Airborne Division in 1967 when 1st and 2nd Battalion/503d Infantry, 173rd Airborne Brigade (Sep) lost a lot of men at Dak To on Hill(s) 875, and later 881 and 882. And I was transferred because of those losses. But even then 2nd Bat was operational, just under strengthed. I think only the 1st CAV (Airborne) had a battalion go non-operational after I Drang? Not sure though.

[Nikos]

If I remember correctly Peterson was with 1st Bat in '68, but I am not sure either. As far as SCARS goes, no one I know uses it anymore.

[TheGrappler]

I've seen the SCARS tapes...the horror...the horror...

Lousy techniques (really over the top) demonstrated poorly (off balance, poor positioning, etc.), and repeated in slo-mo to take up tape space. Very bad, only made worse by the ultra-seriousness of his ads and tone during the tape.

Hope this illuminates the issue.

Later

[Jeff Cook]

Grappler,

Welcome to our humble forum! Glad to have you. Can you be a little more specific as to what you saw on the tape?

Also, please sign your real name to your posts - it is E-budo policy.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Michael Morning]

Grappler,

Regarding the SCARS videos, I just happen to have run across a friend who loaned me his set and I'm in the process of reviewing them now. Unlike The Grappler, I believe the SCARS videos have quite a bit of merit. No, they aren't the traditional textbook movements everyone works to perfect in class. They're made for the novice, everyday man/woman off the street to retrain their minds and bodies to be more offensive in responding to the dangers of the street. And yes, the movements are rather straight forward and, at times, simplistic (though others would require a great deal of practice for a non-martial artist to perform).

Most everything is geared for BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG striking with a little grappling thrown in here and there. Most scenarios that I watched were finished with varying final strikes (as in lethal blows). Having said this, Peterson was quite clear on individuals needing to know to actively chose to take someone's life or otherwise choose something less lethal (with examples demonstrated). He obviously wasn't trying to turn out a bunch of mindless assassins, but was rather trying to get people into a THINKING, take-charge attitude that could handle a violent comflict (whereas the bulk of average people - even some with training - would freeze up or do the wrong thing if mentally unprepared for conflict).

The thing about SCARS, though, is that it proves the old saying that it's the easiest things that work. It may not be pretty, but it gets the job done. The street fighter willing to jump in your face and duke it out will win over the traditionally-trained, classroom martial arts jockey with all his/her complicated movements 99% of the time. SCARS' primary goal is to get people into the mode of offensive fighting rather than defensive fighting. This type of take-charge attitude is what wins the day, not the perfection of classroom technique.

Beyond all this, I would have to take Peterson at his word from the standpoint that he is ex-military and has the background to back up what he's teaching (as opposed to a sheltered martial arts instructor without real-world experience - and that would include "ring fighting"). If I had one complaint about his system, it would have to be concerning the soundeffects he makes when striking. I think the various vocalizations are all a bit silly, but that's just my opinion.

As a last point of interest, from what I've read, the videos are really just primers to the advanced training offered through actual SCARS instruction. I would imagine that this training would be the ultimate litmus test for the system as a whole, as opposed to saying it's "good" or "bad" just from the basic tape set.



[Edited by Michael Morning on 09-13-2000 at 12:23 PM]

[ericDZR]

thanks for the review michael. like i said in an earlier post, the "offensive mind set" sounds like a good idea. but i guess what has turned me off most is the way the program is presented/advertised, but everyone has to make a living somehow. i'm currently trying to find a set of tapes to review as well. i'm also interested in what their "compression fighting" techniques are. thanks again.

[TheGrappler]

Simplistic? Yes. Effective, maybe. Goofy hair and slow motion "I AM IRONMAN" (for you Black Sabbath fans) style sound effects? Absolutely.

My problem isn't so much with the techniques, but rather the notion that what he teaches is "secret SEAL super-ninja" style that could kill and make you 100% effective. Check out the rather humerous review at (http://www.altinet.net/~karate/scars2.htm) for a an excellent assessment of these tapes.

In actually, the techniques are nothing special. A few punches mixed with a few basic kicks, and just a tad of grappling (my speciality). Unfortunately, many are done "bar-fightin' style" (looping haymakers, straight-legged roundhouse kicks, off-balance throws, etc.). I would just normally dismiss such a set of tapes as another mook slapping together a few combinations and calling himself a master. But the full page adds in several magazines, week long $5K seminars, and the serious fighter he takes himself to be just makes me irritated. And the half-truths about training elite special forces piss me off (I'm a civilian employee for the Navy, and I interact with these kind of snake-eaters).

Save your money.

--A. Murray

[Michael Morning]

I agree completely with what the Grappler mentioned about being irritated about Peterson suggesting that what he teaches is sooooo much better than anything else. There's too many similar schools in existence which say the same things - and they, too, are as equally wrong. In giving the benefit of the doubt (since I haven't seen or experienced first-hand live training with him), I'm sure much of what Peterson does and HAS done is far superior to anything specifically laid out in the tapes. I understand he does quite a bit of work with SWAT teams and similar military units, so obviously his skills go well beyond simple empty-hand fighting.

As a final note, I wanted to comment on one thing The Grappler reminded me of: in the tapes there ARE a lot of "haymaker" type punches thrown. By this I mean strikes which are thrown after being pulled back over your shoulder like your average bar-brawler. Obviously this piss-poor telegraphing of strikes is not only unnecessary but silly and dangerous as well. In Peterson's favor is the concept of hitting with the entire body (not just the shoulder or hips). This is a primary tenent of ninpo - and produces some seriously powerful results far superior to normal Karate-like striking. However, ninpo is smart enough to teach people to strike this way from any position and without telegraphing the movement like a beacon in a dark room. Seems like a curious oversight on Peterson's part.

[Jeff Cook]

Many "become a killer real quick" programs specialize in defense against unskilled fighters. This sounds like what you all are describing. It also sounds like you are describing nothing special. But then again, that's the fallacy behind training tapes.


Michael's comment: "This is a primary tenent of ninpo - and produces some seriously powerful results far superior to normal Karate-like striking."

I understand where you are coming from, however it is also a primary tenent in karate (at least the styles I studied). Good karate training teaches the same development of power in a punch; it all starts at the floor, not at the hips. Hips, shoulders, wrists, every part of the body have to be integrated with each other and the surface you are standing on. This is the gospel of punching according to my Wado and Shuri Ryu instructors.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[kenjgood]

First post on E-budo. Love this discussion Board!

SEAL’s: Say you trained, trained with, or saw a SEAL training and you have instant credibility in many minds. Good marketing plan!

I understand that the Naval Special Warfare community has placed as much distance as possible between themselves and Mr. Peterson. He is not the first, nor will he be the last.

One only needs to read the bombastic ads associated with the group to arrive at a logical conclusion. I understand the need for advertising, but...

I have had some contact with SCARS and SAFTA as a member of the Naval Special Warfare Community. I was active-duty at SEAL Team One and spent quite a few years as a reservist on the West Coast. Honor Graduate of BUD/s class #105 for those of you who will be checking.

I am a trainer and director of the Sure-Fire Institute that works with law-enforcement and military clients. See http://surefire.com/institute.htm for more data. Anyway, I am not an operator anymore, so I humbly approach this topic.

From the law-enforcement point of view, SCARS has to be out for most. Just the name alone has to be a juicy target for some civil rights attorney. Very little ability to regulate force, an in my mind this is a critical short-coming with dealing with John Q. Public and his brother standing there with a video camera.

Most military units don't place a lot of emphasis on combatives as they have belt-fed machineguns and things that go boom. But in today’s low-intensity conflict scenarios, Close Quarter Combat is a valid concern and some units spend the time developing "systems" that meet mission requirements. We just finished a course with a U.S Army Special Forces Group and combatives was one of the training blocks. They are still open and willing to adopt principles and techniques germane to their mission. This is in stark contrast to an almost cult-like following found in some SCARS advocates. Keep in mind we are not talking about street fighting with "Tank" Abbott. These guys will find themselves in situations where they are wearing a lot of gear, helmets, body armor, low-light conditions, uneven terrain, projectile based threats and many other environmental factors.

I first came in contact with SCARS as a reservist when it was the "buzz" around the community. I met a few guys who had taken the SCARS course(s) when they were first being presented. For the most part the graduating students seemed to believe that what they had learned was undefeatable. IMHO a dangerous mental position. It is great to have a powerful, decisive, positive mental attitude, but please temper it with reality. As one looks around at any physical/mental activity that men attempt to conquer, 40 hours just doesn’t cut it… I can defend myself against most after years of training. But the reality is there are many, many who can defeat me in H2H combat, plain and simple. I train and hope I don't run into them in a lethal force confrontation. Odds are I won't and for that I am grateful.

While working for the Federal Government as a program director for Shipboard Security, I ran into a proponent of SAFTA who was telling me that ALL people ALWAYS react in certain ways to certain stimulus, a pillar of his system, as I understand it. He then attempted to physically demonstrate the principle by shoving me as hard as he could in the chest while at the same time stating that I would put a foot back. As he shoved, I executed a basic sword turn found in the Yanagi ryu curriculum. It is one the first things you need to understand and apply to successfully evade sword strikes and facilitate dropping people to the ground. My feet were still in place, and he as completely off-balance, ripe for a counter. I was and still consider myself a novice in Aiki JuJutsu. So went the theory that ALL and ALWAYS can be found in close quarter engagements.

With a puzzled look on his face, he asked what I did and I tried to explain that it comes from a system that has its foundation in edged weapon conflict. The individual quickly interrupted and stated that “knives are !!!!!!!! to us, we treat them as hands attached to the arm”...A truly scientific analysis. When he finished his monologue, I felt humbled as I had met Jesus Christ Incarnate prior to his Second Coming. This individual can also be found in similar ads of the SCARS variety.

I have posted on: http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000213.html as to the effectiveness of Yanagi ryu strategy and techniques when employed by a skillful practitioner with a bit more than 40 hours of training.

To be perfectly honest, I am not sure what the relationship of SCAR/SAFTA is but there are striking similarities in its advocates.

The good news maybe that SCARS, SAFTA and similar systems might be well-suited for inculcating an aggressive mind-set and never die attitude to young lads in compressed timeframes. Trainees leave with a high level of confidence and basic plan of attack. Most plans are better than none.

On the other hand, instilling a sense of invincibility can lead to foolhardiness. I selected Naval Special Warfare as a community because of the strategies and missions, and left attacking machine-guns on fortified hills to the immortals. It was a longer more difficult road, but worth it.

The more difficult weapons based arts involve traveling down a similar road. Outcomes of weapons-based, multiple adversary fights from my viewpoint favor those with the greater sense of balance, sensitivity and awareness over one-dimensional aggressiveness. I have observed over the years that those with an overly aggressive/ballistic mind-sets tend not to fair well in projectile-based training/operational situations. Bullets doesn’t really care what is on your chest; SWAT, SEAL, SPEC this or that. They just fly and comply to the immutable laws of physics. It is much better to blend and outthink your opponent, adopting the effective strategies of the Aiki principles. Allow or cause your opponent to overextend in mind and body, and then cut them down with your weapon.

I have quite a few e-mails from folks that I have trained attesting to this. I would like to think that the approach we are presenting actually saves lives and puts bad guys away. As effective as our training is, it could never approach the 100 percentile. You can only increase your odds of prevailing in a lethal-force environment. The rest is what I term “the Grace of God Factor”. Face it, no matter how invincible you may believe you are, you will more likely than not need the benefit and immediate support of others when multiple opponents have weapons than can kill from a distance. It is not about you anymore, it is about us. SCARS seems to be "I" centered from this vantage point.

In closing, (finally!) I have met a few of the SCARS instructors at some of the SPEC OPS trade shows I have attended. They were always extremely helpful and friendly, the same could not be said for Mr. Peterson himself.

I would like to have the opportunity to discuss the merits of this or that technique, principle and training methodology in an intelligent manner with him personally.

I would love to change my opinion of the SCARS approach as it resides in the negative.

Respectfully,

Ken J. Good






[Edited by kenjgood on 09-20-2000 at 02:05 AM]

[Kit LeBlanc]

Ken,

Good to see you on this forum!!

Chris LeBlanc

[Rhomyn Escalante]

Ahhhh! E-Budo scores big-time! Ken Good's "Welcome to the Real World" editorial comments should be posted on all MA, LE, and Military forums cyberspace wide. And someone with an ounce of sense should have him do an article in a legitmate magazine along the lines of his comments above!

[Joseph Svinth]

If Mr. Good wishes to publish something, JNonLethal at http://ejmas.com stands ready to publish it.

[Neil Hawkins]

Good comments Ken and welcome, unfortunately though the type of people you describe are far more widespread than SCARS, there are many CQC and MA instructors that fit the same bill.

Look forward to more from you.

Regards

Neil

Hey Ken,

Great Post! That was very well written.

Hope all is going well with you. Sorry I won't be seeing you later this month but I will see you at the end of November.

Take it easy,

Toby Threadgill

[Brently Keen]

Mega Ditto's Ken, and welcome to E-budo.

While I have no military experience to speak of, I have seen the original HCS tapes featuring Mr. Peterson, and from my perspective (as a Daito-ryu AJJ practitioner) I agree with your assessment completely. For all the claims in those multi-page ads, there's really nothing new, unique or undefeatable on those tapes.


Brently Keen

[George Ledyard]

As an Aikido teacher and Police Defensive Tactics Instructor I have encountered a number of law enforcement / military training systems that purport to be "scientific". This is usually don to create the impression that the system being studied is not "martial arts" which require lengthy training and are made out to be too complex for teaching to personnel in a short-term situation.

What you encounter in these systems is:
a) A teacher who learned his techniques the same way the rest of us have i.e. the martial arts
b) A teacher who is a master at creating western scientific sounding terms to describe the concepts he has learned through his martial arts, military, law enforcement experience.
c) A teacher who understands the concept of the "Giffen Good" in microeconomics. That is an item that has a reverse demand curve in which the more it costs, the greater the demand. The creators of these systems invariably charge a price for their services that is far in excess of what the norm would be in their field.

Now this doesn't mean that the stuff is not good. Tony Blauer is a fine example of a quality product. It is expensive but is probably worth the price. Just remember that what you are paying for is Tony taking his martial arts experience, using his creative brainpower to play with different ways to train, and his incomparable ability to develop new vocabulary. The latter is most important because in this field you have to convince the administrators to hire you so you need to sound really cool. Use all the current buzzwords. It's all packaging.

There are plenty of folks around who know the same things. Peterson's claims that the Russians stole the Systema techniques from the SCARS system is laughable. What you notice about most of them is that they are broke. What separates the successful from the broke martial artist is marketing. Blauer, Petersen, Siddel etc. are guys who had the smarts to take their knowledge and repackage it so that it looked different from what everybody else was doing. People pay fantastic amounts of money to do these systems. Spending a lot of time being pissed off at them is like being pissed off at Billy Blanks for being smart enough to realize that there were a whole bunch of people that wanted to do martial arts without the "martial". Now he is a millionaire and we're not.

All of these guys offer a good product. I'd be happy to do any of these systems if I could get somebody else to pay for it. Just don't believe all the hype. Especially in Petersen's case it is exaggeration to the point of untruthfulness. At least you don't hear Tony Blauer spending all his time claiming that everybody else's stuff is dog doo and if someone else is doing something right he must have stolen it from him.


[Edited by George Ledyard on 10-13-2000 at 09:06 AM]

[Michael Morning]

Didn't it used to be "location, location, location"? Now it's "marketing, marketing, marketing" since the internet is the best location anyone could possibly have (i.e. a storefront open to the world).

Major point taken regarding "buzzwords". Anything which is stated as "new" seems to take on a life of its own regardless of any inherent quality. Tae Bo, as one example, is NOTHING new under the sun - either to aerobic conditioning OR martial arts. As noted, it's marketing not quality.

Regarding SCARS: a punch is still a punch, a kick is still a kick. Nothing new. The two primary points I would suggest taking away from the videos is (1) the offensive mindset/mental retraining and (2) the simplicity and flow of offensive technique arranged in such a way as to overwhelm and devastate your opponent. Either of these points can be taken and used with whatever anyone is currently doing for martial arts training. The SCARS videos are merely a bunch of drills which put these points to work. Nothing overtly superior, just another way of doing the same thing. 'Course it wouldn't sell as well if Peterson didn't say it was "better" than everything else available ;)

I guess the lesson to learn here would be that the martial arts is just one more arena where we all need to be intelligent and educated consumers. Compare "labels", do the research, use your eyes and a healthy dose of common sense before paying your money (thankfully I didn't buy the SCARS tapes - I dubbed them from a friend...WHEW!).

[James Williams]

Gentlemen,

Please excuse my late post on this topic. To compare the S.C.A.R.S training to Systema is as absurd as the claims that they make in their ads. To say that Systema took portions of S.C.A.R.S. training is ignorant at best. We are looking at two completely different operating systems here. Systema being at the outer limits of technical sophistication and function and S.C.A.R.S being extremely simplistic. I am very impressed with Systema, it is far and away the best system taught to military units at this point in time. We can only wish that US troops could get invoved in a program this functional and complete.

[Juan Perez]

"Jerry Peterson, who founded SCARS in 1987, yelled with military urgency. He served in the 173rd Airborne Charlie Company in Vietnam"

This is fom the "Mens Health" article.

I wonder how true it is??
My dad was with the 173rd Headquarters 66/67
and he told me that at that time all of Charlie Company was
either killed or severly injured.
Joe Stitz

Actually, the US Army's Unit Status Reporting criteria designates a unit as non-mission capable (NMC), or virtually "destroyed" if it has only 70% of its junior soldiers (E4 - E1) and 65% of its senior soldiers (E5 - and up) available. At this level, the unit would be considered a P-5 (not even close to being ready to accomplish its mission for lack of personnel) and an overall C-5 (the worst possible combat readiness rating). Just a bit of "Jeopardy" trivia, but it might shed light on Mr. Stitz' statement.

[Rhomyn Escalante]

In your dreams Peterson. There is nothing of SCARS in Systemia.

Mr. Perez. Throw your book away. USR criteria is somethng for the PIO to send to college ROTC wannabes. Hey, I'm on a roll with acronyms! There was no Army Airborne line unit, in Vietnam, that was ever above 70%! 70% was what you hoped for on a perfect day. And there were no perfect days. Army Airborne units functioned below that so often it became the norm. In my esteemed position of filling in for the Company Clerk when he went on R&R, I did the morning reports. I saw units so under strength that they pulled 'legs' from all over II Corp to fill slots! And still didn't go past 70%! Legs! In an Airborne slot. Oh the shame.!

[Juan Perez]

Mr. Escalante,

1. If you read what I wrote carefully, it does explain that it was "Just a bit of "Jeopardy" trivia, but it might shed light on Mr. Stitz' statement." I didn't promise it would solve whatever issue you seem to have with what Mr. Stitz, or anyone else, said. I, for one, am not learned in the order of battle in the Vietnam conflict to speak intelligently of who was there, when or how. If my comment didn't shed any light, then, oh well "suck it up and drive on."

2. Also, I resent the statement on the ROTC wannabes. All three of the current general officers serving in the 10th Mountain Division are a product of ROTC. All, but one of them, have seen combat (to include Southeast Asia) and the one that did not was a troop commander in the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment- Delta (Delta Force) and has seen conflict that cannot be written about. The last infantry Task Force commander I worked for, also an ROTC graduate, has been in actual combat three times, to include two combat jumps with the Ranger Regiment. Oh, and did I forget LTC Steele who saw combat in the streets of Somalia, another ROTC graduate and currently a battalion commander in the 10th?

3. USR criteria, is currently the measure utilized in THE ENTIRE ARMY (FORSCOM and other unified commands) to gauge combat unit readiness... it is not a perfect system, but is the only one we've got. This is the report that the Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman gets on his desk every month. I am sorry if that fact is unintelligeble to you, but... it is a fact. One good point that a friend brought up to me yesterday evening was that no such type of report may have been used during the '60s or 70's anyway, so there goes my theory (oh, well :rolleyes: )

4. Finally, about your comment on "Legs! In an Airborne slot. Oh the shame.!" First of all, it is common historical knowledge that airborne jumps were not very much, if at all utilized, during the Vietnam conflict by US forces (it is hard enough to get the pilots to drop you away from the trees in Fryar DZ in Bragg, imagine trying that in the jungle). I am sure "Mr 7.62mm" did not care what "tabs" that US soldier had on his chest when it impacted crushing bone and tearing flesh. I am Airborne and Ranger qualified, but I don't let pride become arrogance; at least not when all it does is create division among soldiers. An old, "crusty", combat experienced SGM told me once: "Tabs don't mean shit!" (and he had them all)... I think he was wise.

5. Finally, ROTC graduates comprise (and it nearly always has) over 70% of all US Army officers, many of whom died in Vietnam as platoon leaders. I like to respect their memory. I know enough not to generalize regarding NCOs or Officers because God only knows I have seen, and have been told about, both making numerous (and in some cases, hilarious) mistakes (because we are human).

6. Have a nice day :)

[Rhomyn Escalante]

I have been brutally admonished. I will take it in stride and as Mr. Perez suggests, I will "suck it up and drive on". I have learned my lesson. Wait! No! I am coming back. Yes I think I'll stay the white flag, jack another round into the chamber and take another crack at a by product of the 10th Mountain.

You may resent anything you want. But don't read anything into my comments that weren't there. A ROTC 'wannabe' darlin' ain't the same as an O on line. Nice try. Let him get his O, go on line and then you can compare him to the rest of your heroes. I don't care what the JCS Chair gets on his desk every month, but I do care what he has above his wings, and what he's got stapled to his wifes favorite BBQ . Don't throw SFOD-D at me in anything you write. You don't know anyones first name. Sorry about your theory going 'Oh Well'. Lastly you're taking your crusty old SGM comments out of context, and I wasn't even there when was nurse maiding you.

RE-read my posts, and then you may apologize.
And in the interest of Airborne Brotherhood, I accept your apology in advance!

[scoundrel]

The SGM's comment was definitely taken out of context. Ask any long-tabber if he values his. Or ask anybody that's ever had a scroll on his left shoulder if his ain't worth sh*t.

There are excellent soldiers in every different kind of unit, but let's face some hard facts:

1. Not all men were created equal.

2. Some units are more equal than others (even in the new army of one).

Nothing wrong with a little unit pride (especially when it's deserved;) )

Peace :toast:

Steve

[scoundrel]

The SGM's comment was definitely taken out of context. Ask any long-tabber if he values his. Or ask anybody that's ever had a scroll on his left shoulder if his ain't worth sh*t.

There are excellent soldiers in every different kind of unit, but let's face some hard facts:

1. Not all men were created equal.

2. Some units are more equal than others(even in the new army of one).

Nothing wrong with a little unit pride (especially when it's deserved;) )

Peace, :toast:

Steve

[Juan Perez]

Sir,

I will put it to you this way:

Since I don't know you, I will continue to refer to you as "Sir" and I will refrain from using "darling" or any other terms of endearment.

I will agree to disagree on whatever points we seem not to see eye to eye on.

As for the SGM nurse maiding me. Yes, exactly, and I welcomed it because part of my job is to learn and part of his is to teach.

Were his comments out of context? It would make no sense to argue that as only I was there. And you might be right about what you said... maybe he meant exactly what you wrote... who knows.

I will refrain to engage in an argumentative tone here because this is how these threads become useless. On top of that it leads, very often, to people becoming highly disrespectful with others, which is not productive and is easy to do when separated by fiber optic cables. Besides, I have great respect for the fact that you served and were "there."

So, thank you for the exchange you afforded me; I even learned from it. But, no apology is necessary here. So you will receive none from me. Have a nice day.

Now back to the SCARS issue.

[Rhomyn Escalante]

"Darlin'" was good enough for Victor McLaughlin when he was speaking to John Wayne. Now I ain't Victor McLaughlin and you ain't John Wayne, but anytime two paratroopers can't get together and see who can throw a road apple the farthest, it is a sad day.

SCARS is a terrible system. It is sold to a market that is very unsophisticated. But the market is at risk (often in harms way) and has a tendency to buy razzle dazzle solutions. I do not think that is good. I think that is bad. I do not know Jerry Peterson. The only conection I have with him is that he served in the same unit I did. But I know it is the responsiblity of any 'manufacturer' to remove his product from the shelf when it is no longer viable. But they don't, they leave it on the shelf as long as some sucker buys it. There are still suckers out there, and as the man said, "One is born every minute"!

Respectfully, Rho Escalante.

[Kit LeBlanc]

If anyone doubts Rhomyn's last assertion RE: SCARS pick up the latest issue of Reality Fighting, one of the supermarket martial arts rag offshoots (BB or IKF I can't remember). Its got Krav Maga on the cover.

Take a look at the techniques they are showing in the SCARS article. The technique pictured on the opening page of the article shows a lot about what they "know."

Judge for yourself.

Kit

[Juan Perez]

Mr. Escalante:

You did mention something called Systemia (or Systema). I have never heard of this form of fighting. Could you shed some info on it? Is there a website I can get a hold of it? I have done some search engine inquiries, but to no avail. Thanks.

[Rhomyn Escalante]

I am the wrong guy to discuss this. Ask James Williams at Bugei. Go to their forum (bugei.com) and leave a msg for him in the CQB topic. I can tell you it is 13th or 14th century Russian. It is deep. Very deep. There is a couple of guys here at ebudo that know of it. Toby Threadgil. Ken Good. Kit LeBlanc I think. These guys are the ones to talk to.

[Walker]

Systema is the general name for a group of Russian martial arts that have some military (and political) connections. They say they originate in the 15th cent, but we’ve seen other claims like that. They differ from Sambo which originates in judo and seem to have Chinese elements. I read an article at one point that I think accurately describes it as a combat tai chi looking animal. Uses a lot of rolling pelvis movement and whipping rotational arm work. Interesting to watch. I think the two major reps over here are ROSS in America and Systema in Toranto. Ross has a web site www.AMERROSS.com
and Systema www.russianmartialart.com

[Orpheus]

Hello, everyone,

My name's Steve Baroody and I've been reading E-budo for the last three or four months. For the record, this is the best martial arts fourm I've found online, although I am a bit biased towards the Japanese martial arts. I haven't posted because anything I would have added to the discussion was being said better by people with more experience than I. However, this thread has presented an opportunity where I may contribute something of value. I've been doing martial arts for fourteen years and hold shodan ranks in aikijujutsu, kenjutsu, and karate (I realize that dan ranks aren't usually given in aikijujutsu and kenjutsu, but my instructor decided to shift to the kyu-dan system). I'm giving you my background not to toot my own horn, but so you know where I'm coming from when I comment on Scars.

I haven't been to any of the live training (cost prohibitive), but I've spent more than I care to admit on Scars tapes and trained the principles for four years. Like many of you who've posted on this thread, I have some problems with the way the system is marketed, but I have greater problems with the dogmatic stance exhibited by many practitioners. It is a position where nothing useful is to be found anywhere else, and questioning is seen as a threat.

Although I have no real-world experience, from my understanding of traditional martial arts, I believe Scars to be an extremely effective fighting system. I ase this assertion on it's two primary principles. The first, which has already been mentioned, is the Offensive Mindset. This is a concept that I believe to actually be one of the most advanced principles in many martial arts. If someone throws a punch at you, they are offering you a target. Since they believe they're about to hurt you, it comes as a great shock when they themselves are injured. You can then take advantage of the lapse this causes in their concentration and injure them further, with a progressive deterioration in both their mental and physical ability to do you harm. Furthermore, (and this part I'd really like to test, perhaps in a Panic Attack drill) they say that by concentrating exclusively on your own action, you can prevent the adrenaline dump that will rob you of your fine and complex motor skills, as well as make you extremely telegraphic.

The second principle, which I've already delved into a bit, is that people have predictable reactions to trauma. I realize that this subject is controversial, but I think it's rooted in biology and physics. If you hit me full power, to the nose , the energy of that collision has to go somewhere. In terms of physics, the vector of that force is extremely predictable, provided that angle of attack and amount of force are same each time. On top of that, the body has an instinctive reflex to withdraw from harm, as evidenced by pulling the hand off the hot stove before we know we're touching it. Now in real life, are the force and the angle going to be exactly the same? Of course not. However, there's enough similarity in how similar parts of the body react that you can, to a reasonable degree, bank on it. And, in fact, it's the Offensive Mindset that allows you to, because the more times you attack, the more likely you are to actually hit your targets, and the more attacks your opponent will have to contend with.

I hope I've added something to this discussion, and look forward to your comments.

Regards,

Steve Baroody

[Stephenjudoka]

I do not know the SCAR system but what I can say is that the body will always get a chemical dump when supprised.
Even if you concentrate on what you are doing the initial supprise attack will make your body deliver the chemical cocktail.
(Fight or Flight)

I have been making studies on the effects of the chemical dump on the heart rate.
I have used a large group of officers of all standards and experience.
I have put a heart rate monitor on them and studied the effects of incidents on their heart.
They are sent into a room to deal with a noisy radio, their HR are at a steady 50 to 70 BPM, when out of the blue an attack is launched on them. The HR immediately rose to between 140 to 180 BPM.
Because of age etc I recorded their resting heart and the final heart rate.
The result was just about everybodies HR was at 85% of their maximum for their age.

So to say that a system can teach your body not to get the chemical dump I think is stretching the imagination a little.

However with more training and experience of situations the body does learn to cope with the chemical dump better.
The more times I have put someone through the scenario
the faster their heart rate recovers from the initial shock.

Stephen Sweetlove

[Rhomyn Escalante]

Originally posted by Orpheus
Although I have no real-world experience,


Hello Steve. Welcome to ebudo. You're gonna learn something here. Have fun with it. Re-read Ken Good's post. He has real-world experience. Then re-read your post.

Respectfully, Rho Escalante.

[Stephenjudoka]

Rho,

Thanks for the welcome.
I have read the post and fully agree with what it says.
I can further add that it does not matter how switched on you are, when the supprise comes you brain shuts down (Maybe for only a split second) but it is immpossible for the brain to take in all the information and react all in one go.

I have heard many claim that they are always switched on and will never be caught by supprise - no matter how good they are - and some are very good - they all react the same, by the time the brain recovers, it is all over for them.

Stephen Sweetlove
The older I get the better I was.

[Orpheus]

Hard empirical evidence on the adrenaline dump is always welcome, and I'm glad people are doing research on it. Surprise definitely seems to be the area where it's most pertinent. What always comes to mind, however, is the many classical styles that include a great deal of fine and complex motor skills among their techniques. The sword turn described by Ken sounded a great deal like this, and many of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu techniques Dave Lowry has written about do as well. My question is how and why would these battlefields systems be able to include such techniques if they would always fall apart under the influence of adrenaline when in the line of fire. It seems that sheer evolution would have eliminated such techniques if the chemical cocktail was such an inevitablity.

I asked my gross anatomy professor about the various triggers of this phenomenon, and in her opinion, they are all emotionally rooted. She said that not only is fear a stimulus for it, but anger is as well. Along these lines, I wonder whether a deep meditative state brought about by various Mikkyo rituals would allow one to be dispassionate, even in the heat of battle.

[Stephenjudoka]

Steve,

I am talking about a suprise attack. On the battlefield you are ready for such suprises and thats why you can react to them.

For example if you are taking part in a raid on premises, from the moment you get a briefing your heart starts to pound.
As you near the premises your heart beats faster, the chemicals are flowing around your body but as you enter the premises you are on top of your game, you have a heightened awareness, you are ready - however the suprised inhabitant is caught off gaurd.

When I talk of the chemical cocktail I mean when you are suprised. If you are aware - such as on a battlefield - then the chemical cocktail can work for you.
I believe the claim from SCAR was how to avoid the chemical dump - you can't.

Stephen Sweetlove

[James Williams]

Stephen,

Interesting data. How do you control heart rate? That would be a good place to start. If you understand what controls heart rate then we can approach the problem of the mind controlling the body when it is placed under sudden duress.

The vast majority of police officers do not do any extensive training that would prepare them for sudden duress, especially in the CQB arena. To test this group will get you a read on their responses, however to conclude that that is the only way of it is incorrect.

The fight-flight response that you are engendering by placing these officers under duress can, with proper training, be minimized or eliminated. At the core of heart rate is oxygen. Training the mind to control the intake of oxygen will control the heart rate. The sharp intake of breath sudden tensing of the muscles when startled response must be consciously trained out of the person and replaced with an exhalation of breath and a relaxing of the muscles. This of course takes proper instruction and training over a period of time.

If you are serious in this regard training needs to be a daily process. Like an other endeavor that requires optimum human performance it has to become they way your are. It is necessary of course to train in a system that has this response at its core. Wanting to be relaxed under duress and knowing that it is the way are different mind sets. It must be proved to you over many repetitions and in many situations that this response is superior. This is one of the reasons that I am impressed with Systema. I recognize an art, similar to the one I teach, where they do not define human performance from the strain harder, be tougher, more effort equals more reward point of view.

At Surefire Institute and Strategic Solutions International we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the human mind and body are capable of solving problems in ways that, although not normal, are enormously efficient. Efficiency is defined as the least amount of time, space, and energy it takes to solve a problem. This is essential in a lethal force engagement environment with multiple threats manifested.

If you get to Southern California or if you have an opportunity to meet us when we are training officers someplace else in the country, military training is not open, please talk with either Ken Good or myself, this stuff is easier shown than explained.

For the last question presented, yes there are old systems that teach the type of control that we are discussing. Becasue they are rather obscure I was surprised when I observed Systema and how their art developed.

[Stephenjudoka]

James,

A very interesting reply and one that has made me think.
Of course I have read about controlling breathing etc and have often wondered if it really worked.
However after reading your post I will have a more serious look at it.

Stephen Sweetlove

[kenjgood]

Originally posted by Orpheus


The second principle, which I've already delved into a bit, is that people have predictable reactions to trauma. I realize that this subject is controversial, but I think it's rooted in biology and physics. If you hit me full power, to the nose , the energy of that collision has to go somewhere. In terms of physics, the vector of that force is extremely predictable, provided that angle of attack and amount of force are same each time. On top of that, the body has an instinctive reflex to withdraw from harm, as evidenced by pulling the hand off the hot stove before we know we're touching it. Now in real life, are the force and the angle going to be exactly the same? Of course not. However, there's enough similarity in how similar parts of the body react that you can, to a reasonable degree, bank on it. to your comments.

Regards,

Steve Baroody

A quick note on this "principle".

I can recall several confrontations in which my "banking" on this or that almost caused me to file Chapter 11.

One particular situation will illustrate my point:
I was in the U.S. Navy on fire watch when an extremely agitated individual walked into the building. He was 5' 8", no more than 160 lbs. I told him to get into his room as it was past curfew.

He reluctantly agreed. A few moments later I heard a noise from the 2nd floor and proceeded to see what was up. It turned out to be the ‘mild mannered’ young man that I had met earlier. Turns out the 2nd floor watch was now getting his rear end handed to him by this now enraged individual.

I cautht his attention, and as he turned to deal with me, I lifted him several inches off the floor with a well-placed front kick that originated from my back leg. The top of my foot impacted his groin, squarely. It was a solid shot folks dream about. What did it do in turns of a reaction? Absolutely nothing. To say the least, I was caught in a little surprise gap….To make a long story short, I ended up throwing this determined individual down a full story of brick stairs, and giving him some ODT (oxygen deprivation therapy). When he regained consciousness, he immediately re-attacked. I threw him into a pool table, and bounced his head several times off the slate using his hair as an anchor point.

He then proceeded to take a beating for a least a minute from 6 shore-patrol 26” batons.

My point….never expect anything in particular to happen, that way you will not be surprised.

This holds especially true with firearms. I have a file full of suspects taking enormous damage and continuing to function, often with deadly results.

I also have first-hand reports of folks taking catastrophic damage with edged-weapons and they still kept on comin’.

The mind-body connection is an amazing one, don’t under-estimate it in any potential opponent.

Finally….Offensive mindset is a nebulous principle at best. I often ask folks give me a principle of you art….A common response “Win”. O.K. I believe that is the objective, but not a principle.

An opinion….

[Stephenjudoka]

I have been doing some research over the last few days and I have found the following ideas:-

A. From F.E.Fairbairn - The repeated exhortation to "kill or be killed" had the effect of accessing the highest levels of body-alarm reaction, energising the neurollogy and releasing a potent chemical cocktail that made the fighter stronger, faster and more reistant to pain and shock.

B. Mike Finn - One of the first things to consider are the relationships between action and reaction, in a moment an opponent initiates an action, your reaction should both be spontaneous and in harmony with the action, in order to implement your technique, and your reaction time will depend on the efficiency of your nervous system.

The nervous system is the communication system for our bodies, it carries messages from the body to the to the brain and the brain to the body. Part of the system is called the autonomic nervous syste, this deals with things like our heart rate, secretion of saliva and things that are generally beyond our conscious control.
On the other hand the sensory nerves and their pathways are concerned with our five senses that are taste, touch, sight hearing and smell. The motor nerves and their pathways are concerned with various muscular actions.

Imagine you see someone with a knife, the eye (sensory nervous system) sends a message to the brain via the nervous system, you perceive the image.
The person with the knife is stabbing at you, now you need to move, a message is s ent to the muscles from the brain (motor nervous system) then various muscles contract and the bones move, you avoid but not quick enough, you get stabbed.
As the knife nicks you arm, a reflective arc takes place, this means that as the knife touches you (sensory nervous system) a message is sent via the spine to withdraw the arm (motor nervous system) and then a message is relayed to the brain.
This is a quicker process and happens for eg. when you inadvertently stand on a nail.

Our reaction time to a situation we have never encountered is normally slower than our reaction time to a familiar situation. When we undergo repetative training that response time diminishes. For eg. Driving a car, the more our reflexes become conditioned, the easier the task becomes, then because of the conscious thought process required at first will diminish and the time the driver is more likely to respond quicker to an emergency situation.

By repetitive training we can produce movement that does not require conscious effort and thus increase our reaction time.
This can be improved upon by allowing you to react quickly, but with some consideration of variable circumstances.
For eg. the use of scenario training.

When a muscle receives a message from the brain, all it can do is contract, muscles make no other action, except relax.
If you are tense it will take far longer for a muscle to react, however if you are relaxed the muscle can contract quickly.
Speed comes from the ability to relax at the right moment.

3. Bruce K. Siddle - The following is a quick check list which highlights design methodologies to reduce survival stress. It should involve around four goals:
a) To increase confidence in a skill at a subconcious level quickly
b) To increase situational confidence through stimulus response training exercises
c) To use visualisation principles to mentally prepare for the potential threat stimulas and the correct response
d) To train how to use breath control to slow down the heart rate when anxiety arises.

All very good advise and it is material I use regulary (It was good to re-read it. I had convinced myself I had thought of all these things, I now realise where I had got them from)

As I said I do not know the SCAR system but I understood (from what I had read on this post) it claimed to teach people how to be able to avoid the chemical dump - in my experience and opinion you can not avoid the chemical dump - but I do agree you can control it.

Stephen Sweetlove
The older I get the better I was.

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
For a glowing look at Jerry Peterson's SCARS system, see Herb Borkland's article at http://fightingarts.com/magazine/borklandscars.shtml .

If you remember your micro economics you might recall discussion of a class of objects that have a reverse demand curve. Instead of demand falling off as the price rises, the demand increases. This is called a "Giffen Good" or in simple English a "luxury good". These have existed from time immemorial, the SCARS system is just the modern martial arts version.

It is Jerry Petersen's great claim to fame to have been the first martial artist to realize that self defense training could be marketed as a Giffen Good just as Billy Blanks was the first to realize that there were thousands of folks out there who would like to do martial arts without the martial. They are both millionaires now. The rest of us whine about it and feel superior because we are doing the "real thing". They on the other hand don't care what we think and take vacations wherever they want.

Just remember PT Barnum when you think about SCARS and go about your own training.

[Walker]

George,
Imagine my surprise when my circus training turned out to be martial arts!

George make a valid point that I use every day in my business. When confronted by a big ticket some people fall on the floor and die (they are not your customers), but others look at the same price and think that if they are charging that price the product must be special. Often it is (of course it is in my case), but not always.

[Orpheus]

Dear Ken,

Three things. First of all, Scars isn't my art. The art that I practice is aiki jujutsu. I responded to this thread simply because I had some information about Scars that I didn't see posted and that I felt was germaine to the discussion.

Second, when you kicked that guy it lifted him off the ground. Right? Believe it or not, this is exactly what I was talking about; physically speaking, the force has to go somewhere. And while it's doing so, you have an opportunity, albeit a brief one, to line up your next technique. I think it's very similar setting up a joint lock on someone while they're still in the air from a throw. However, is damage to the testicles going to deter someone in a manic state? Obviously not. But, did he move when you hit him? According to your account, he did.

Third, the offensive mindset is about not using defensive techniques like blocks. I agree, saying that "win" is a principle is pretty weak. This has more to do with hitting arms, along the lines of a Kali limb destruction, than blocking them, which doesn't do much to stop the attacker.

Finally, if one can't assume that there's a predictable physiological reation to say, a gunshot wound, is it necessarily safe to assume that another physiological response, the adrenaline dump, will happen reliably?

[kenjgood]

Orpheus:

I hope you are not taking my comments as confrontational in any way, I am genuinely interested in constructive dialog by all.

As far as force having to go somewhere, who here can nullify the known laws of the universe? Of course the force has to be absorbed, dissipated, re-directed, and/or diffused. We cannot get around the basic laws of thermodynamics.

What I am objecting to is the concept that one action will definitely lead to a pre-defined re-action by an opponent. IMHO this is a mistake, plain and simple.

Fight or Flight – Activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS)
Fear of:

1. Death,
2. Serious Injury
3. Pain

The first time most individuals fire a powerful handgun, they will be struggling with effects of the autonomic reactions associated with the SNS. It is not “natural” to stay calm, not flinch, and over-control the weapon during subsequent shots. Most shooting problems are associated with anticipation of the recoil.

You can train yourself or “inoculate” yourself against the immediate control the SNS wants to exert over your mind/body. That is the essence of proper training.

It is not natural to stand close and softly re-direct a powerful incoming strike, but you can train yourself to do so.

It is not natural to maintain proper posture during projectile-based fights, but in many cases this spells the difference between success or failure.

My personal opinion is that we should not train to re-enforce our instincts but implement new reactions to perceived dangers.

The key is perception. I can recall several real-world situations, when I was surprised and momentarily disoriented, the SNS took over by default. I have seen tens of thousand of non-lethal projectile-based simulations where this is also the case. Therefore, it imperative as a warrior that you train not to be surprised. Learn your environment, learn about your opponent. We have to learn to see what can be seen.

Surprise can initiate deep-seated fear-based responses, ones that are not usually efficient.

It is also my opinion that heart rate elevation is not a good indicator on the probabilities of success or failure. That is too simplistic. As touched upon in a previous post, it is the mental/emotional reaction that leads to the ultimate physical response to a perceived threat that matters.

1. You can have an elevated of heart rate through adrenaline level increase as a by-product of fear, anger/rage. You can also choose to control this state through the breath/mind connection established through training and experience. If you training has never brought you there, then you do have a problem with your training methodologies.

2. You can have an elevated of heart rate through aerobic need. Again this is a manageable process/requirement.

I have placed heart-monitors on ‘students’ and instructors during many force-on-force simulations. Looking at the raw data, we notice everybody’s heart rate is significantly elevated. There are enough realistic stimuli to bring out many of the physiological responses that are will be encountered during actual combat.

The outcomes of the engagements are not determined by who have relatively high or low heart rates. Those individuals who can manage the following usually determine the outcomes:

1. Responses that their own being is generating

2. Correctly “Reading” the incoming dynamic data

3. Predicting future events based on the collation and interpretation of that data

4. Remaining “relatively” calm enough to initiate and complete effective actions to counter the incoming threat(s).

If you are surprised, cancel 1-4 and hope for the best…not a position I would like to find myself in.

[Stephenjudoka]

Ken,

A very good reply. This is a subject I am very interested in and I am learning by reading the replies to this post.
I have some observations and questions:- I know the heart rate does not determine who will perform better, but surely if the heart rate goes from 50 bpm to 180 bpm in a split second, this is an indication of the chemical cocktail kicking in.

I have been in situations when I have felt my heart beating very fast but I have been able to carry out the action I was required to do (Almost like an out of body experience). I have put this down to repetition training, even under immense pressure my phsyco - motor skills have kicked in.

I am a great beliver in scenario training, I like to make it as realistic as possible (but it must be safe) and I have found the more of this I do the better the performance in live situations.
My question is how does one learn to control their breathing when suprised and not in a situation they have been in before.
(Not a trick question - I really would like to learn)
Do you have any representatives in the UK.

Thanks for your post.

Stephen Sweetlove

[kenjgood]

Steven,

Didn't we square off on a firearms/weapons in England vs. American thing? I am still looking to fire bullets Eastward in your direction. :kiss:

Anyway, as I said before, when you are surprised you are in serious jeopardy. Don't be surprised is the "A" answer.

Taken from a Jeff Cooper (a famous developer of the modern pistol technique) Book entitled "Ride, Shoot Straight, and Tell the Truth" - "A military commander can be forgiven for being defeated by never for being surprised"

Cooper also developed a color code system that many are familiar with and use everyday of their lives.

Something to this effect -

White: Oblivious to most things around you (for a fighter pilot this would be flat, dumb and happy)
Yellow: Cautious and observing, looking for potential threats
Orange: Threat Located
Red: Acting on the Threat

He believes, as do I, you can maintain a state of "yellow" indefinitely during waking hours. We are not talking paranoia here, just a reasonable outlook while living in a dangerous environment. You should never be in "white".

Predators strive to surprise their prey, when they do, they do not go hungry. As many know here in America, a well-known study chronicled incarcerated felons (predators) choice of targets (prey) on the street. They choose those folks with slumped postures, no eye and head movement and generally unaware of their surroundings.

Be the hunter, not the hunted.
Almost all warrior training of all cultures will include this concept one way of the other.

When I am fearful, I forcibly turn it around in my mind. "I am going to make my opponent(s) concerned about what is going to happen to them, I am not worried about what is going to happen to me." This proactive attitude will be manifest in your body language and decisive actions. I will not longer have the resources to be afraid because I redirected them into positive, powerful solutions.

Situational Awareness is critical. Situational Awareness give you time, negating many of the devastating advantages of surprise. Please read a short article on this I wrote:
http://www.surefire.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000005.html




Tacticians constantly look for surprise in offensive actions to create momentum and force multiplication.

Practically speaking, if a stimulus generates strong waves of fear, forcibly diaphragmatically breath to bring the system down to a more manageable level. You are trying to regulate the mind. When I have found myself in a life-threatening situation and I let overwhelm me, ultimately controlling me, I sank further into the abyss. How did I extricate myself out? One deep long breath through my nose down the back of my throat, let it back out in a controlled fashion....bingo relative clarity of thought and the matrix of options start reappearing.

During training oftentimes I visual my worst nightmare in order to elicit this hard wired internal responses, then I practice putting them back down where they belong. The training now has an emotional component that transcends mere repetitious movement. Controlling your emotions is as important as good strategies and techniques.

Adrenaline is good and designed into the system for good reason; panic is not and tends to rapidly thin the gene pool.


Gee, I hope this post was not too short....

[Stephenjudoka]

Ken,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply.
Sorry it was not me on the firearms/weapon contest between USA and GB. (I have only competed at Judo/Wrestling/Sambo)
If you come over to England let me know and perhaps we could meet up and arrange some training etc.
I know of many who would like to attend.

Once again thanks for your reply.

Stephen Sweetlove

[James Williams]

Stephen,

That was Ken's sense of humor, reference our countries mutual unpleasantness in the late 1700's. Where are you in England? Do you have a law inforcement and/or military background? Most of our training is in regards to a weapons based environment is this what you are interested in?

Regards,

[Stephenjudoka]

Silly me. very funny.

Stephen Sweetlove:D

[Derek McDonald]

"I have some observations and questions:- I know the heart rate does not determine who will perform better, but surely if the heart rate goes from 50 bpm to 180 bpm in a split second, this is an indication of the chemical cocktail kicking in."

" I am a great beliver in scenario training, I like to make it as realistic as possible (but it must be safe) and I have found the more of this I do the better the performance in live situations.
My question is how does one learn to control their breathing when suprised and not in a situation they have been in before."

Stephen,

I think you already have most of the answer. You overcome the adrenaline and increased heart rate by engaging in realistic training similar to the threat you expect to encounter. Adrenaline is not all of the problem, it makes me jumpy and elevates my heart rate, but what really does me in is my inability to process and analyze information with enough speed, and my attachment to a particular outcome (winning).

When I experienced my first force-on-force gunfighting simulation (with Ken Good) I felt like a fish out of water, every thing seemed to happen faster than I could react, I experienced sensory overload, and as a result I recieved a lot of high-velocity vectored instructional feedback (I got shot with paint projectiles). Three things allowed me to quickly improve my performance under duress, (1) I focused on controlled breathing, (2) I practiced some basic techniques and memorized a few basic principles of force-on-force (as taught by Ken) and (3) I spent enough sustained time training in force-on-force scenerios (with proper coaching from qualified instructors) that time no longer seemed compressed and I no longer experienced sensory overload to the degree that I had.

According to Ken Good, "The cornerstone of meaningful tactical training is the engagement of living, thinking targets that can, and do, shoot back versus the typical stationary silhouettes found on a range...This type of training is conducted with non-lethal, projectile firing training weapons. By learning to solve problems in a realistic high-stress environment an individual will be much more likely to succeed on the street or in combat when it counts..."

As an aside, some people say that there is no substitute for the actual experience of a gunfight (I have never heard this from an actual gunfight survivor). It has been my experience that once your unprotected flesh has been impacted by a paint projectile traveling at 270 fps, you will no longer differentiate between what is "real" and what is simulated, you will simply seek to avoid the next impact and all the pain that comes with it.

Here is the good news: with a valid principle-based operating system, good trainers teaching good tactics, and realistic force-on-force scenarios, you can greatly improve your odds of surviving a gunfight with as little as eight hours of training. How is that possible? It comes back to the "principle-based" part. Learning and then utilizing 8 or 10 overarching principles is much more practical than trying to remember a complex set of techniques and rules. The training I recieved from Ken was based on just such a set of principles, making it relatively easy to apply with a minimal amount of training. In case I have confused anyone with my attempt to communicate the difference between principle-based operating systems and ones that are technique-based, allow me to offer the analogy of learning to ride a bike: When your father/mother taught you to ride they did not (I hope) explain the proper angle of pedal attack, the sequence of minute adjustments your muscles would have to make, or how the laws of physics would interact througout the day. They told you to get on, keep your head up, and pedal like hell. In otherwords, they gave you a brief rundown of three principles: Stay vertical, maintain forward motion, and have fun. Your first attempt may have been a disaster, but by the end of the day you had a basic and life-long ability to ride bikes.

I'm not saying that the technical aspects of a combative art are not important, I'm just saying that when training for high-risk situations you should start with the principles and follow with realistic practice before seeking to apply sophisticated techniques.

Anyway, thanks for letting me ramble on an interesting subject.

Derek McDonald

[SELFDEFENSE]

I came to SCARS as a civilian who carries a concealed handgun(s)looking for basic unarmed skills to fill in better the center of my force continuum, and to enhance my ability to protect the gun from being taken away during an encounter which started as less than lethal.

I went to the SCARS partner board and found five people in my area who were using the Hostile Control System, Trainer's Review tape, and H-2-H Professional Series tapes to practice the system.
All the members except one had previous MA experience; the most experienced being a 2nd degree black belt in karate and the others Aikido, college wrestling, and judo.
Yes, the hype that it was adopted by the Seals helped lure me (us) in. (However, the ludicrous claims of being "undefeatable" and the money-back guarantee if you were butt-kicked in a fight were many times a source of hilarity; especially trying to figure out how to posthumously collect on the guarantee.)

After doing the various moves a fair number of times and trying to defeat the moves, it was clear that many of the technique chains were not practical. Also, the people with martial arts experience were always commenting on how each new technique chain was drawn from various traditional martial arts.

We set out to distill all the techniques to one technique per assault type (e.g., choke from behind, punch from the front, etc.), which we felt was the best from the standpoint of:
depending only on gross motor skills, least easily countered by an unschooled opponent, worked more on skeletal manipulation or function disruption than pain compliance, worked on assailants with heavy clothing, was easiest to apply against left- and right-handed attacks, was best in a multiple-attacker situation, and best lent itself to a smooth aggressive flow of execution; all divided into lethal and non-lethal versions. I made a tape of that distillation and that is what we used to practice and put into our toolbox.
Since in a fight you have to do something other than stand there and get hit, this is one of the things we studied to do in such a situation. There are probably better systems out there, and maybe a few that are worse. But from the standpoint of someone who does not want to spend a lot of time going to a school in a particular art, the tapes provided a means to get started doing something as long as you were willing to intensively go thru the tapes at the beginning and discard the majority of techniques that had serious flaws.
I think one of the strengths of SCARS is the opposite of Peterson's advertising hype. It is not some new undefeatable magic art, but rather a wholesale borrowing and chaining of many of the traditional Eastern arts into a basic level system which may be useable as long as the KISS principle is strictly followed.

[Sgathak]

I followed this thread from beginning to end. Alot of you made wonderful comments.

The marketing is a joke
Peterson has absolutly no respect for "tradition"
his claims are based on "science"
the system is gross motor skills based.
etc etc etc

I think that with few exceptions much of the actual exposure many of you have had with thi system is based on SCAR/HCS.

HCS is NOT "SCARS".. it is "demilitarized" it is rough, it is brutal, and it is there to keep you alive. many of you critisized the techniques as being sophmorish and basic. Thats the point. They are just that. KISS. the "meat" of the system is the Autokenimatic responses which i didnt see a SINGLE post on. Autokenmatic responses are medically provable and more importantly scientifically reproducable.

there are levels of response depending on various critieria. (ie a testical kick will produce X response 99 out of 100 times, in varying degrees of severity. (the remaining 1% are usually drug related.) The key to SCARS is understanding the reactions of the body and setting up targets using those principals.

I in NO WAY consider SCARS to be fake or phony, just misunderstood. I also do not think its philosophy is limited to SCARS. Peterson and his company will tell you SCARS is a complete system... Nope. But the science in it is a PERFECT augmentation to other systems.

Also, I think that many of your "reviews" of the tapes were again, just the HCS tapes (which Peterson no longer sells) and you would do yourself a significant amount of good looking at the stuff produced by him (NOT TRS like the HCS tape was) I recommend the tape package IQS-1. If looked at objectivly and responsibly it will shed valuable insight into fighting.

[Michael Morning]

Hi, Sgathak,

Some good points...I also liked the simplicity of the movements from what little I saw. In real life-and-death fights you do need to hit first, hit hard, hit effectively, and move on (esp. against multiple attackers). However...

Two questions/problems I had:

1) The sounds you were supposed to vocalize when striking I thought were pretty silly and the reason behind them seemed fairly shallow. I would think 0 effeciveness would be lost by omitting them.

2) I was pretty stunned to see the HUGE amount of telegraphing of strikes and punches. The training shown against the dummies was ludicrous...we always called those types of punches where the guy cocks his fist clear back over his own shoulder as "hillbilly punches" or "haymakers". I love when guys throw them because they are so great to defend against. A seriously hard strike can be thrown using the whole body without ever cocking the arm. And really, this is Martial Arts 101 knowledge level spanning most any style.

[Sgathak]

1) The sounds you were supposed to vocalize when striking I thought were pretty silly and the reason behind them seemed fairly shallow. I would think 0 effeciveness would be lost by omitting them.

I agree with you. on the surface. bare with me here... if you look over his video "breathing dynamics" it explains pretty comprehensivly what he is doing. Though he denies it pretty intensly in the video it is actually a form of Kiai. In the video he explains that actually making the sounds allows you to "hear" the way the air should move. YA! DOH! RA! However... once you understand the breathing dynamics he says your supposed to STOP making the sounds. (the SEALs would loose the element of surprise pretty quick if they made goofy ass sounds with the first sentry they took out eh?) the sound itself is irrelevant, its the breathing that matters. dont beleive me? try doing a drop onto something and holding your breath... then retry it and as you fall say "DOH"... the sound release lets your body put full mass into the fall. All 4 sounds in SCARS are there for a reason. Though it may not be apparent without real life instruction.



2) I was pretty stunned to see the HUGE amount of telegraphing of strikes and punches. The training shown against the dummies was ludicrous...we always called those types of punches where the guy cocks his fist clear back over his own shoulder as "hillbilly punches" or "haymakers". I love when guys throw them because they are so great to defend against. A seriously hard strike can be thrown using the whole body without ever cocking the arm. And really, this is Martial Arts 101 knowledge level spanning most any style.

True, no doubt, the telegraphing in the videos is appaling. However in later videos which are more "advanced" techniques with almost no telegraphing because they come from the "natural" posture (shizen no Kamae).

Remember HCS is not SCARS.. it is "Hostile CONTROL systems" Its to keep you alive in a bar fight or a street brawl or a mugging... Its allows you to CONTROL the situation just long enough that you and your family can get away safely. NOT to take to the Dojo to go toe to toe with.


(typo edit plus a few additions)

J Robbins

[Kit LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Sgathak

many of you critisized the techniques as being sophmorish and basic. Thats the point. They are just that. KISS.


the "meat" of the system is the Autokenimatic responses which i didnt see a SINGLE post on. Autokenmatic responses are medically provable and more importantly scientifically reproducable.

there are levels of response depending on various critieria. (ie a testical kick will produce X response 99 out of 100 times, in varying degrees of severity. (the remaining 1% are usually drug related.) The key to SCARS is understanding the reactions of the body and setting up targets using those principals.

.

KISS is always a good thing, and probably a good point of the system.

But I think if you go back and read more carefully, you will see Ken Good and at least one other person discussing "autokinematic response," if not in those words. And there is where one of the problems lies.....no matter how much so-called "scientific" data you present, I have been in enough rough and tumbles to know people RARELY move the way you expect them to move in response to a strike/hit/etc. Ken put it succinctly "I don't expect my techniques to do ANYTHING.... " this is wise advice, and more often than not what is to be had in the real world.

[Sgathak]

Autokinematics arnt fool proof. Understanding them however can do absolutly nothing but help... as long as you dont fall into the trap of RELYING on them.

example from personal experience. One of my only "real" exposures to Aikido was at a YMCA where an Aikidoka was demonstating (it was a weird "open dojo" type thing) a throw against a huge hulk of a guy. The big body builder dude wasnt getting thrown though. He was about twice this Aikido guys size and could out muscle him... Well, I had a friend in the "audience" teach me how to do the throw... It was rough and very inelegant, but when I pulled the Big guy to the side after the "demo" I asked if I could try it out. He said sure and I grabbed him by the wrist with one hand and smacked him on the radial nerve before I did the throw... the throw was ugly but he went down. It wasnt because I out muscled him or anything, I was about the same size as the Aikidoka... It was because i KNEW that giving that nerve a quick smack before I did the lock and throw would keep him from locking up his muscles. I didnt HAVE to out muscle him because his muscles essentially didnt work.

I would never fully rely on SCARS, (My personal system of Combat integrates Taijutsu, Hoshinjutsu, SCARS, and ROSS, as well as a few other arts interspersed...) I know better and have got my ass kicked trying to do just that. BUT. It has some GREAT prinicipals that ARE based on science... Principals that I think anyone would be doing a disservice to themselvs by not integrating to their personal system... or at least understanding the principals and not debunking the whole concept because the guys on film yell funny or you dont like how they talk about "chi" or you think the video is hoaky. there are more to the arts (ANY art) than can be shown on film...

[Sgathak]

why isnt it posting my Sig?

hopefully it will work this time

[Sgathak]

J Robbins

[Michael Morning]

Sgathak,

Interesting to note your training background...I'm familiar with Taijutsu (I'm assuming you mean Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan taijutsu though aikido also refers to their empty hand as taijutsu), my wife and I trained once with Glen Morris at a seminar for Hoshinjutsu, but what is ROSS?

Just curious.

[Sgathak]

Please also note, I didnt list my training background for any other reason that to illustrate that im not in the "cult of peterson" now, moving on....

I ment Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu with a snippit of Genbukan Taijutsu here and there.

(the following is taken from their website and edited by me for brevity LOL) ROSS is a Russian Martial Art with a history stretching back into what is considered the "Tribal Period" (one of 6 noted periods in its develoment). Its started it development between uprisings between the Kosog and Pencheng Peoples.

in the Southern Period (3 of 6) it was influenced by the Huns, Tartars, and other "Barbarian Hordes". The "western period"

(4 of 6) is when Firearms became common place and hand to hand combat became a secondary skill and therefore was more "exclusive".

In the Global period (5 of 6) was during the communist era. During their regime, they attempted to repress all nationalistic martial traditions of native lineage. The result of this was the creation of a group assembled by Stalin to develop a combat system and national sport that would unite the Soviet State under one combative tradition and one national sport. The sport was Sambo. Due to the influence of foreign "tricks", Sambo soon became a mere curriculum of techniques lacking any high degree of depth and substance. At higher levels within the military, among the elite combat subdivisions of the Special Forces ("Spetsnaz"), Russian Martial Art remained in practice and was further developed as a science of biomechanics and psychophysiology ("Survival under extreme conditions referred to as "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz.")

The contemporary training of Russian Martial Art, culminating from each of these periods of influence and development, is known as R.O.S.S. - "Russian Native Self-Defense System". ROSS is the national training system of Russia, directed by the International and All-Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art, who was approved and recognized by the National Olympic Committee of Russia as the sole representative of Russian Martial Art, within Russia and worldwide. R.O.S.S. is further recognized by the Russian Ministry of Sport, and by Russian President V. Putin

The Global period of influence dealt with the nature of combat during this century. Therefore, weapons adopted by the Russian Martial Artist included bayonet-equipped AK47 machine gun, the earlier SKS rifle, even earlier carbine, the spetsnozh (special forces knife/bayonet), entrenching tools (shovels), throwing knives, batons, military belts (used as whips and immobilizing shackles), pistols, sword (European saber and Cossack shashka), axe.

Following the fall of the Soviet Union ROSS was allowed out of Russian Borders... The man who was asked to head up the Training in the US is named Scott Sonnen. He was trained by Gen. Alexander Retuinskih with the admonition "don't try to be Russian. Take ROSS and improve American life." The Universal Period took Russian-Style ROSS and transformed it into a System of Performance Enhancement for all aspects of physical culture. Scott Sonnon and Nikolay Travkin, President of AARMACS, Inc. and General Director of the American Annex, enlisted the aid of an American team of researchers, Benjamin Brackbill, Scott Fabel, Shawn Menard and Michael Hults - collectively "the American National Instructor Cadre" became the forefathers of the ROSS Performance Enhancement System. No longer was this "Russian-Style" but now through the sciences of Biomechanics and Psychophysiology, ROSS became a Performance Enhancement System of Somatic Engineering through the vehicle of martial art.


ROSS is very cool because not only does it have such a colorful history but its movements and actions are so fluid and graceful. It is often ranked with Aikido and Taichi for its fluid movements, but also due to its Force of Force philosophy. it is extremely homeopathic in this sense. The homeopathic approach is seen in very few forms of martial art, for it orients not on attrition, not on conquering and controlling adversary, but on non-resistance and amplification. (the following is from their website word for word) The homeopathic approach does not resist force (symptom or foe). It does not impose force against force or resist force with subsequent force, but finds alignment with the nature of the conflict, empowers it, and guides it to resolution. Only three major martial art forms appear to practice this approach: Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan, and ROSS. The ROSS doctrine, being a homeopathic approach, is based upon a unique amalgam of the concepts of Non-violence, Cooperation, Non-resistance and Plasticity.

One could interpret Non-violence as being present in certain esoteric Chinese schools of martial art, in soft, natural movement, as well as in the flowing motion of the Morihei Ushieba's Art of Peace. In the coordinated search for harmony of Aikido and in the soft, sensitive Pushing Hands of Tai Chi Chuan, one can see indications of the homeopathic approach.

However, ROSS differs from both the Art of War, which we have seen above, and the Art of Peace, such as Tai Chi Chuan and Aikido. This should be obvious for War and Peace are corollaries of the same doctrine. Non-violence is perpetually confused with Peace. Peace is the cessation of War; and War exists only in the culture of the practitioners of ad baculum ("Might Makes Right"). A bobcat killing a rabbit is not violence or warfare though the doctrine of ad baculum would attempt to convince you so. A bobcat killing a rabbit is only misperceived as violence, and therefore not peaceful, and therefore 'bad' or 'evil'. Since War is seen as an innate human condition, and not as the cultural creation it truly is, survival is misperceived as warfare. Non-violence refers to neither War nor Peace, which were exclusively fashioned by a specific culture of humans, not to be found anywhere else in the community of life. War and Peace are two wheels of the same cart, trudging along unstable in its anthropocentricity, ignorance, and doom

The rest of this artical can be found here... http://www.amerross.com/character.html its well worth the read



Everything you ever wanted to know about ROSS but were afraid to ask



J RObbins

[Psyillirabbit]

SCARS advocate Kungfool fled from an excellent opportunity to prove that he was more than just words and a hopeless Jerry L Peterson wannabe fraud. An offer was made for an all expense paid trip to Texas for a match, in order to demonstrate that his ability was so much more advanced than all of us "mere martial artists" who spent years developing into the fighters that we are. It is this writer's opinion that he must have ruptured something trying to decline so rapidly. When challenged on his insults to the military and his posts concerning the tragedy in New York as well as the fact that he had never been in a real conflict with his SCARS he did not reply, leading this writer to believe that the truth is too much for him to admit to. Instead he became evasive and insulting as well as obscuring the facts by censoring the posts in his forum. The following challenge came about after several months of insults, lies, and BS in the SCARS club. Below is the commentary. Please let me know what you think.

The challenge-
>>>Kungfool, Your words are meaningless, they are nothing more than typed words on a screen, they neither affect me nor disturb me. Your opinions and thoughts are garbage to me. I know that you have not served your country in any branch of the service, so your conceptions about the service are a waste of time. I also find it to be almost positive that you have never used any of the skills you claim to have in a real fight. I will not waste my time with your gibberish. I will simply address your "professional" opinion with a simple challenge. <smirks>

I am challenging you. Your words are a waste of time, I am betting your skill is as well.

If you can successfully defeat me in unarmed combat I will pay for your flight and expenses to fly to Texas. If not, you pay for the trip yourself and crawl back to your hole where you came from. You will pay for the flight and the lodging up until the "test" after that I will pay you the full sum of your flight, food and lodging. I will not pay up front, as you strike me as the type of person as to be unscrupulous enough to take the front money and run. Sorry if the truth hurts but that is about the level of personal honor that I feel you have. I will cover the location of the "test", the medical personel, as well as the waivers of liability. Before the "test" I will have a third neutral party hold the money for the trip to ensure that you get the money if you should win. Further, there will be a video device present to record the event, and two copies will be made so that each participant has an original unedited copy.

Put up or shut up, the ball is in your court.<<<

Please see post 2

The cowardly decline-
>>>I'll tell you what gentlemen, it never fails to astound me how psychotic these martial artists will become after testing their wills against mine. Well, you now see the result in Psyillisrabid's 4 posts. (The fifth one was deleted due to stupidity.)

Although your challenges would be enlightening for you personally Psyillisrabid, it is not my mission to go through life beating up and humiliating every egotistical martial artist with something to prove. Sorry, but I am not Miyamoto Musashi. Get a life, and tell your mommy at the dragon elite forum to stop fighting your battles for you. Be a man and stand up for yourself, that's the best advice I can give you friend.<<<

The rebuttal by the author-
I figured you would not accept the challenge. Obviously you are too pathetic and weak to even stand up to a "mere" martial artist as myself, who as you put it, has his mommy fight his fights for him. <smirks in derision>

Best advise I can offer you is to give up on fighting and martial arts in general, go on to news commentating like your other God Rush. Tell me is Jerry upset that you have too heros to worship? It is also amazing that censorship is so obvious here. I see that you like absolute control, sounds a little totalitarian if you ask me. Well, I will leave you here now. I have the answers I was looking for. Scars obviously is not up to the challenge. Time to go let others see that Scars can not even handle a challenge as small as mine.

Psyillirabbit>>>

Well, that is it in a nutshell. Of course there was other posts and censorship as well as insults thrown out to me, but that is what you get when dealing with a child such as kungfool that hides behind his little computer spitting out propaganda and rhetoric. The sad thing is that it is not even his original ideas, but all quotes from Jerry L. Peterson whom he hero worships and idolizes. Well, please let me know what you think.

Jason Sallas a.k.a
Psyillirabbit- Co-founder Dragon Elite
clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/dragonelite

[dingodog1]

Honor Graduate of BUD/s class #105 for those of you who will be checking.

Hehhehheh, you're right of course. It's kinda humorous that people who won't take time to balance their checkbooks will go out of their way to prove or disprove someone's claim to belonging to an elite group. I understand it though but it's still funny.

USMC 3rd squad squad leader til third phase when I was fired for the other squads' closing ranks every time we came out of a column movement ...

for those of you ..... :o

[Lonewolfjujutsu]

An obsevation,
Having met Charles Nelson while he and his wife resided in NYC, I found similarities in techniques between SCARS and Nelson's self defense system.
Charlie didn't get into the details that Jerry did and of course there was a difference of personalities but many techniques were similar.

Now I am sure that you know of the reputation that Charlie had, along the lines of Col. Applegate so I am curious if certain techniques from old time combat vets are similar because of nessesity.

As far as over pricing for SCARS, Charlie charged me $400 for twenty or so lessons. If you ever saw his place, a mess, most people would of walked out.

While I understand the whole SAN SOO issue and SAFTA is because Lew Hicks and Jerry had a falling out, really it is up to the individual to decide what works best for them. SCARS is very basic as it was ment to be. Charles Nelson's self defense was also. So the point behind all the bashing...well it is kind of stupid.

I find that alot of forum people are very passionate about what they do and or practice to the point of tunnel vision. While I have learn a few things from the SCARS system, I do not use all of it. But at least they do not "head hunt" or kick box or MMA fight.

I think if Rex or Charlie came up with the system, it would be religeous. I think this was a major reason why Charlie was so low keyed as are most people of their caliper.

Wether it is Scars or BJJ it is always up to the clear thinking of the individual to use his tools/Attributes to fight and win. No one system is the answer. But what I like that Jerry has made clear, it is not about the technique, but the thinking behind the technique.

Anyone else study with Charles Nelson before he died?

Ed

[Sharp Phil]

But at least they do not "head hunt" or kick box or MMA fight.


Any of those three are preferable to the SCARS methodology.

[Lonewolfjujutsu]

Maybe for the ring or sport fighting. Every important tactition from any time period has said never play the other guys game. But that is exactly what you do in boxing, MMA etc. In that arena you hope that you are better than the other guy, doing same thing. 50%/ 50% chance of winning at the start until you get lucky or the other guy makes a mistake. I think those odds are poor in H2H. But yet practictioners who who train in MMA, Boxing accept those odds. They practice until their techniques are refined, which is fine, but yet it is still a 50%/50% chance of winning. Not great odds if you ask me. I think that is the difference between popular main stream martial arts and programs like SCARS or what ever. SCARS may not be a popular system but at least thay do not advocate playing the other guys game. Something to be said for that. Ed

[Lonewolfjujutsu]

Lets look at SCARS, techniques and methodology,

A typical response to say a punch or grab would be a down strike to the radial nerve in Scars. Not unlike a response to a shomen or yokomen strike in kenjutsu.

Scars focuses on striking vital points of the human body. Kyusho jutsu, and not the Dillman crap either.

Wether you use a knife or empty hand the techniques are the same. I remember that being a central phylosophy in Kali.

The similarities to San Soo are apparent, not too many people bash Jimmy Woo.

Scars fights on the ground, not wrestle, different from BJJ, but what most people who follw Bruce Lee's teaching will state. If you get knocked down get back up.

Scars addresses the multi fight situation. BJJ does not. Yet Aikido does which was based on Bujutsu.

Scars teaches that mindset is more important than technique. Mushasi wrote the same thing in the Book of Five Rings. As did Bruce Lee in the Tao of Jeet Kun Do.

Realizing that when I am in a CQC enviorment, my first choice is my weapon. What ever this may be. As it was in Bujutsu of ancient Japan. If I loose my weapon or it malfunctions, I want a simple, brutal way of defeating you to either get my weapon back on line or to pull back to troubleshoot. The last thing I want to do is to box and wrestle you. I may have been up for days, and have the grude from drinking local water so I may not be the super grappler or kickboxer that day. Also no matter what I have in my hand, knife or screwdriver, I want techniques that are universal, that work with anything. When I hit you I do not want to slap you like some of the techniques I experienced in Systema, But I want to overload your nervous system. SCARS does this. So is the system all that terrible. I think not. Maybe it is issues with Jerry. As I remember Paul Vanuk had a few, sniff, issues himself.

If you want to join the flavor of the month club, thats cool, it works for you. But to bash a system with no experience in it, with out giving examples of why it does not work, is addolecent. The Seal guy will tell you, run away emotions are your worst enemy. So challenge fights, personal bashing aside, tell us why SCARS does not work, not that Jerry is a jerk.

Regards Ed

[dingodog1]

Lonewolfjujutsu, that is a nce post. I have passively searched about for more insight into SCARS, besides their own infomercials in various magazines and the insight from this discussion is enlightening ... not definitive but interesting. I haven't seen as many educated views fo that system than these.

I hadn't seen anyone decry it's usefulness til now and I don't remember seeing any admission that much of it is San Soo, til the last few weeks. Learnig alot here.

[Sharp Phil]

SCARS Review (http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/scars.htm)

[dingodog1]

Any of those three are preferable to the SCARS methodology.
Why?567890

[dingodog1]

SCARS Review (http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/scars.htm)
Oh.4567890

[Lonewolfjujutsu]

Read your review, thought it was limited and almost like you had a grudge.

I agree that I never got into the whole breathing dynamics but I must say I have seen vowal sounding ki-yahs in other arts such as Aikido in Japan.

I happen to like the downstrike method...alot and here is why. Most fights that I have experienced are initiated with a sucker punch. Very rare did I square off and range with someone. Either I sucker punch or he did. While a typical defense would be say a boxing duck cover ( elbow up cover head and absorb punch) would work against a punch, it is usless against a weapon.

Say for example instead of a punch your attacker slash or stabs at your face. In the boxing defense you would get cut, pretty good too. Take the down strike to the radial for example. Your timing does not have to be perfect. It may not be as fast as a slip or cover. But here is why I like it.

1. It puts me on the offense right away.
2. Striking the radial nerve does do damage and may cause the assailant to drop his weapon.
3. The strike shocks the assailant core nervous system.
4. Even if I am late I will not absorb the full blow or recieve the full penetration of the weapon.

It does not have to be perfect but it is a good solid response to a ambush style attack. Charles Nelson taught the same technique many years ago also.

The last thing I like about the technique it works no mater what weapon I have in my hand. It allows me to retain my weapon also since I am using my forearm to make impact. I am not sure but Wing Chun does not allow this.

The follow up to the down strike is usually a forearm to the throat or neck. This stun shot is proven to work. A familly member who had twenty years running a prison also validated the techniques stating that is was the only technique that really worked all the time. And he delt with all kinds of prison issues.

Most people use to boxing or traditional martial arts may feel unprotected with this technique, but I have used it, it worked for me, and I like it.

As far as marketing and other aspect, I could careless. I feel Sperry's tape are too expensive but I like a lot of what he does also. Heck ny daughters day care is expensive too, but I value and trust my daycare provider. So the whole money, aggressive I taught SEALS marketing does not bother me. I look beyond that. What bothers me is guys like Lew Hicks who is seen in the SCARS videos working out with Jerry, leaves and starts SAFTA and then bashes Jerry. When I talked to Lew on the phone and asked him a technical question, he deflected and stated that that was not in the parameters of his mission.

I hope I have given a different view of SCARS than the typical Jerry bashing that you get on forums. I like the system, not all of it, but 70 % of it. I think you have to look beyond the staged coreographed techniques and telegraphed punches. There is alot of information their that you will not find in your local dojo pertaining to H2H.

Regards Ed Glasheen

[Sharp Phil]

I have no grudge against SCARS; I just don't like what I see. I own what must be an entire box of their tapes. I might, someday, get around to reviewing them. I might not.