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Kamiyama
17th January 2003, 06:39
Ninjutsu Ground Survival skills question.
I have read a great deal over the past two years here on ground combat skills.
The videotape I made a couple of years ago on the subject covered a great deal in terms of survival of the ninja student while on the ground unarmed. The question I have for you is how much ground combat training on the ground do you feel is needed to survive a conflict on the ground.
You can hit yourself in the head and ask, how experienced is the foe Iím dealing with?
Well surprise.. you will not know. Itís not a sport and you cannot scout his skills before the fight.
So the simple question is, how many hours a week, month or year do you as a student or teacher feel is needed to survive a conflict on the ground unarmed?
How many hours do you train on this special skill.. Honesty is the best policy guys.

My class might get in 6 hours a week or 6 hours a month..
I go in cyclesÖ always trying to balance this art into weaponry and unarmed training on the ground.
I also balance it out with two or three against one.. sometimes four against oneÖ.

I feel it is an important skill to learn, ground combat.
But you must look elsewhere for the skills outside Bujinkan Dojo methods.
I DONíT mean BJJ.
I mean sambo, catch-as-catch-can wrestling (hooking) and wrestling.

Also do you feel it is important to train rifle, knife, pistol, rope, shovel, hanbo, rokushakubo, pocket stick, etc on the ground as well.
If so why?
If no, why not?
And how much do you feel would be important to you?
And do you train these skills now? Honesty is the best policy guys.

I find myself personally enjoying ground combat skills with weaponry more so than standing or unarmed.
I believe age has to something with this enjoyment.
Less injury.

Lets hear your input so others can find out what you are feeling about this subject. OKÖ

Kamiyama, ralph severe

Mike Williams
17th January 2003, 09:30
Any particular reason you have chosen sambo and wrestling over BJJ?

To me one of BJJs real strengths in a self-defense scenario is its transitional strategies, to enable you to get out from underneath and gain positional advantage - either to dominate your opponent or escape. (Note: I'm not talking about BJJ tournament strategies, which can be quite different)

I don't know anything about sambo groundfighting and have seen very little wrestling, so I'd be curious to know what they offer.

Cheers,

Mike

Kamiyama
17th January 2003, 09:53
Any particular reason you have chosen sambo and wrestling over BJJ?

Kamiyama, yes. Experience.
As for BJJ Ďreal strengthsí.. you do not have to get out from under or on top of a foe to survive.
You do not have to gain a posture of advantage in a fight.. you have to cause real true pain to where ever you are with the foe in the fight. This is the main key to over coming a foe causing true painÖ..
Sambo is a combat system. It is not a sport system. You do have a sport side to it. Research.
Wrestling, a sport, is the best system Iíve experienced for take downs, controlling a take down, tackles, trips, sweeps, arm and head control and infighting survival.
Back to BJJ, I feel there are many out there that CAN use BJJ as street fighting. Iíve seen some really good grapplers. Iím not saying it is a bad or worthless system by no means. It has very good drills and great methods of control. But in my experience I rather go with the others. I did BJJ for 7 years. Big deal, have a purple belt. Iím lazy. But I went another path once I felt the weakness of what I experienced with the training. OKÖ
The BIGGEST problem I find with BJJ that it DOES NOT ADDRESS the weaponry combat skills I need for my own methods of ground combat. And it DOES NOT ADDRESS the multi foe combat skills. Sambo does.
Catch-as-catch-can does address pure destruction of the human body without the BS. Itís to the point. It also addresses the truth of ground combat skills like biting, pinching, etcÖ and donít believe for a second these come natural if you donít train them in a combat conflict, they donít.
The other system I like is dumog. But I feel it is understood with Takagi Yoshin ryuha.
Just my point of view on the statements you made..

The post was not really about this.. but.


Kamiyama, Ralph severe

Budoka 34
17th January 2003, 11:40
Ralph,

I see what you mean. I work my ground skills every class, Karate and Judo/Jiu-Jutsu, Probably four to six hours a week. Like my instructor says, "Its all about position", How to be succesful(stay alive) from top or bottom.

I don't practice martial arts solely for combat survival, I like to think it helps make me a better person:) , but I always have it in mind when training.

:smilejapa

Peter Holden
17th January 2003, 13:24
Originally posted by Kamiyama
Ninjutsu Ground Survival skills question.
I feel it is an important skill to learn, ground combat.
But you must look elsewhere for the skills outside Bujinkan Dojo methods.
I DONíT mean BJJ.
I mean sambo, catch-as-catch-can wrestling (hooking) and wrestling.


I have a question. If ground combat isn't covered in the Bujinkan as you say (and I assume also not covered in Genbukan or Jinenkan) and the student must look elsewhere to find these skills ... why is it being covered here?

The question of cross training is an important one, but just as relevant I would think for a karate guy as it is for a student of ninjutsu. Wouldn't this thread be better moved to Shojin's training forum?

Maybe change the subtitle of the forum from "General Discussion of traditional ninjutsu and it's history" to "Gerneral Discussion of traditional and modern ninjutsu" to clarify?

shinbushi
17th January 2003, 16:05
I train newaza about twice per week both technique, alive drilling, and rolling. It is a comination of Bujinkan newaza and Straight Blast Gym. (http://www.straightblastgym.com) jits.

The key for combat pracicality is make sure that once you gain a superior position that your goal should be to regain your feet, rather than submissions. It is great to practice submissions but, that should not be your goal on the street.

Kamiyama
18th January 2003, 23:59
I have a question. If ground combat isn't covered in the Bujinkan as you say and the student must look elsewhere to find these skills ... why is it being covered here? Peter.....

kamiyama, this is a wonderful statement of WHY IT SHOULD BE researched and the very people who are in those systems are here to help or ask questions on what they have or have not done to understand the ground fighting conflicts needed for survival as a ninja student.

I find it very strange that when a subject is talked about and no one has any experience in it or is fearful of looking like a foll.. they ask for it to be removed.

I only asked what do you do or don't do for that posture in our training as a student of the Bujinkan Dojo member.

Personally I feel it is needed for a better understanding of Hatsumi sensei methods.

kamiyama, ralph severe

Peter Holden
19th January 2003, 21:53
Originally posted by Kamiyama
I have a question. If ground combat isn't covered in the Bujinkan as you say and the student must look elsewhere to find these skills ... why is it being covered here? Peter.....

kamiyama, this is a wonderful statement of WHY IT SHOULD BE researched and the very people who are in those systems are here to help or ask questions on what they have or have not done to understand the ground fighting conflicts needed for survival as a ninja student.

That may also be a wonderful statement but it wasn't the statement I was making. I'm not asking why it should be researched but asking why it is being discussed here when you say yourself it isn't contained within traditional ninpo?


Originally posted by Kamiyama
I find it very strange that when a subject is talked about and no one has any experience in it or is fearful of looking like a foll.. they ask for it to be removed.

I didn't ask for it to be removed, just moved to a more appropriate forum where the sort of people with real experience in newaza can also comment. Not everyone reads the Ninpo forum.

Fearful? I think I've spent enough hours grappling not to fear an amateur wrestler from Texas.

Kamiyama
19th January 2003, 23:41
""I'm not asking why it should be researched but asking why it is being discussed here when you say yourself it isn't contained within traditional ninpo?""

kamiyama, well it is as far as Takagi Yoshin ryuha and Shinden Fudo ryuha are concerned. Never the less...newaza can or cannot be in YOUR training.. you go for it !
Either you have missed the point of the ninjutsu-ninpo-ninjakan training or you do not wish to address the subject at hand. Either is ok..
I posted this subject here to ask and to research a subject. Not to be judged or to judge.

Fearful is not about a wrestler from Texico or from anywhere else but from the human psychic.

All you have is a few hours wrestling..?

kamiyama, ralph severe

Peter Holden
20th January 2003, 00:24
Originally posted by Kamiyama
""I'm not asking why it should be researched but asking why it is being discussed here when you say yourself it isn't contained within traditional ninpo?""

kamiyama, well it is as far as Takagi Yoshin ryuha and Shinden Fudo ryuha are concerned.


Originally posted by Kamiyama
I feel it is an important skill to learn, ground combat.
But you must look elsewhere for the skills outside Bujinkan Dojo methods.
I DONíT mean BJJ.
I mean sambo, catch-as-catch-can wrestling (hooking) and wrestling.

So you fell into my cunning trap !!


Originally posted by Kamiyama
Fearful is not about a wrestler from Texico or from anywhere else but from the human psychic.

Well I am fearful of human psychics. The tarot card shuriken attack followed by a crystal ball thrown at my nut? Are we prepared to fight with psychics? What additional training do we need?

Peter Holden
20th January 2003, 00:57
Here's also some questions for ninpo instructors:

How does Hatsumi-sensei show to escape for the guard?

.. from the mount?

.. from juji garame?

.. from a grounded armbar?

.. from a leglock?

What is the style of mount Hatsumi-sensei recommends for real fighting?

Rolling escapes from various pins?

How about chokes?

How about pins?

Using weapons?

Do you know? I'm sure if you are worth a mega-dan you should know the stuff Hastumi-sensei teaches, if not why not? How about the training that isn't shown in videos or at Taikai? Can you teach it or do you have to look to other martial sports to fill in the gaps in your knowledge? Can you call yourself a student of Hatsumi-sensei?

Honestly now.

Terry Ham
20th January 2003, 02:47
Hi guys, I recently read a article about training groundfighting with Nagato Shihan of the Bujinkan, here is the link...

http://www.budotech.com/jvm/nagato2.html


I hope it helps.

Peter Holden
20th January 2003, 02:55
Originally posted by Terry Ham
Hi guys, I recently read a article about training groundfighting with Nagato Shihan of the Bujinkan, here is the link...

http://www.budotech.com/jvm/nagato2.html


I hope it helps.

An excellent article Terry.

Thank you

Kamiyama
20th January 2003, 07:35
Yes, I read this when it was first put up.
Sad to say Nagato shihan is not in my home town. (As bujutsu brothers we could have a good time grappling with each other..)
So I must take responsibility for myself and answer the questions I have by my self.

get some on the mat..

kamiyama, ralph severe