The "What if syndrome"

[Markaso]

Yes it has happened again. The "What if syndrome".

I was wondering how other people deal with this situation. A student asks you "What if you have no choice(option) to fight?

I am of the opinion that you always have an option. But this student was pretty persistent in her inquiry. How do other Karate ka or teachers deal with this?

She is a begining student but that, I think explains a lot from her point of view. She really does not understand Budo.


Any thoughts?


Thanks

[Karate Freak]

hmm... I usually get the "what if he does this" or something along those lines with new students. i have never gotten the " what if i had no choise but to fight". I would explain that if they had to defensd them selves, thats different. but when it comes to two people consenting to fight, there is always a choice, like you said.

[Victor]

Hmmm, I normally deal with the 'What If' syndrom on the first day of class and remain consistent regarding it in the studnet's future training, until they begin to understand.

First, in my locality, I'm not trying to turn out instant experts, and am only offering a long term study developing martial skills.
Should I be in a different environment I would address this differently.

But being where I am, in New Hampshire....

The first night I make it clear to the student that once they reach their Black Belts they have the right to ask 'What If...', and before that point their business is to train.

I'm not being flip, until you develop some skill worrying about what if doesn't accomplish anything useful.

Second, I regularily show that there are multiple responses possible for an attack, as well as show any movement can be used in multiple ways, but until their skill begins to surface (about brown belt) this doesn't begin to manifest itself.

Third, my point about 'What If' is directed to class time. If they have a question before or after class I would address it.

And, most importantly, I want them to always consider a response that doesn't start with nailing a SOB in the mouth (keeping that far down the response line).

I've been consistent with this for 25 years and find it a successful answer.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

[Senjojutsu]

Similar to Michael's comments:

There is getting into a fight and being attacked.

A fight by definition implies a certain "acceptance" between the combatants.

Sometimes with the combatants the "aggression ratio" is split even 50-50, maybe it is 80-20, or even over 90-10 in a bullying or alcohol situation.

Being attacked has no such acceptance option.

There is the assailant(s), and the (intended) victim.

The assailant has made the decision to physically attack.

The decision may be because of the victim's skin color, gender, clothing, or age, - really it doesn't matter.

Respond to the new student with this question; does she enjoy the role of a "victim".

Now not to simplify completely, as you defend yourself there will be the options of the level of force and techniques to apply.

Sometimes an assailant will back off because of the attitude and/or posture displayed by the intended victim - and that too is budo.

[TomMarker]

Originally posted by Markaso
I was wondering how other people deal with this situation. A student asks you "What if you have no choice(option) to fight?

I am of the opinion that you always have an option. But this student was pretty persistent in her inquiry. How do other Karate ka or teachers deal with this?


If there was ALWAYS another option, why would you teach any techniques at all, unless you are doing a martial (read: war) art for no reason but mind/body harmony.

Not to get on a semantic rant here, but perhaps you differentiate between "fighting" and "self-defense"? In that case, there are plenty of options aside from fighting... But one day, God forbid, you will have your back to the wall and stuck defending yourself for whatever reason.

A lot of people say "I use the art of Nike-do or run-fu to get away from problems." What if you are in a situation where you're responsible for someone else's safety who is unable to simply run, or you yourself cannot run. I'm a fast guy, but I don't know that I could necessarily outsprint a young hood in the prime of his life. I believe they call that "dying tired."

A lot of people say "you shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place." which I think is a poor arguement, and this person has clearly never been properly introduced to Murphy's Law.



She is a begining student but that, I think explains a lot from her point of view. She really does not understand Budo.

Any thoughts?


My thought is that is a collosally egotistical statement. Do YOU understand budo? If so, would you have to ask this question to a group of anonymous people whose credentials you are largely unaware of?

It's like when schools adopt "zero tolerance" policies towards kids fighting. Not all fights are mutal duals, and sometimes bullies make life difficult and conflict unavoidable. The child being picked on defends himself and is punished.

I think you are selling your student's intelligence short if you tell them that it is wrong to fight, never fight, etc. Students can understand that there are gray areas and understand that while fighting may not be an acceptable solution, allowing yourself to be bullied is even more unacceptable.

[Harry Cook]

If you genuinely have no choice, i.e. the violence is unavoidable, such as in the case of attempted rape say, then fight to win, do everything you have to to stay alive.
Yours,
Harry Cook

[Sochin]

My short answer: "If you have to fight, fight like a demon!"

But usually the 'what if' gets taken to logical foolishness. "What if you were caught in a dead end alley with 27 ninjas with uzis?"

My answer: "If this ever happens to you, realize that you have made so many mistakes you can only die a horrible death!"

(Thanks, Animal!)

Yes, evil is real and tho you may train to perfect your attitude to daily life, when you meet evil, you will fight it.

[Markaso]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TomMarker
[B]

My thought is that is a collosally egotistical statement. Do YOU understand budo? If so, would you have to ask this question to a group of anonymous people whose credentials you are largely unaware of?


All I did here was ask a simple question to see how other people react to this type of question. Is this not a forum? As for your question Mr. Marker "Do I understand Budo?" That would be something that you should ask my Sensei.

I never sell my students intelligence short and I never tell them that fighting is wrong. What I do tell them is that it is wrong for them to start a fight. If they are being attacked and their training or skill is not what it should be to handle that situation maybe a good tactic would be to hit and run. There is a time and place for everything.


Mr. Cook Good to hear your opinion as always.

[Karate Freak]

In my humble openion,
If someone was to try to make myself or a student of mine a victom, I say, fight like hell, and make them feel like the victom. that will make them think twice. Embarase them, make them feel dumb. If you can use words, go for it, if you need to use some martial ability so be it. I agree with you about telling your students to not start a fight. As well never fight for ego.
"to defen my honour, principals, and my life,
these are my weapons, my empty hands"
KaraTe Do
i cant remember all of the creed, but you get the idea...

[CEB]

I have a boy. He is a good boy. He is straight A student, except for the a B he got in one semester of Art. He is quiet and well mannered and the teachers love him. Two years ago he was being being abused by a group of bullies on a daily basis. They were calling him names, they were hitting him and they were taking his stuff. He wouldn't fight back because he was afraid of getting into trouble. This soon made him an easy mark. My son had the skills all along to defend himself but he didn't want to risk getting into trouble. He got to where he no longer wanted to go to school. His life was at school was miserable. I finally convinced him that he had to stand up to his aggressors. He had two incidents after that. One he threw a kid with Seionage and thumped him a couple of times. The second incident he drilled a kid pretty hard with Ko Uchi Gake into an asphalt surface. The punks reported my boy to the teachers after that one but the teachers said "No, he wouldn't do that". They knew he did but it pays to be well behaved gentleman. It has been about a year and a half and he has had no problems since. Going to school again an enjoyable experience for him.

Now he did not HAVE to respond with violence. Truth is my son gets hit much harder in the dojo taking ukemi than the from the strikes those little punks were hitting him with. He could have just kept taking their abuse, but why should good people have to accept abuse from the bad people. I know this is just school kid stuff but it is the first example I could think of that shows me there is no clear cut black and white. I see a lot of gray in the world. Some neighborhoods are more grayer than others. I think our principles are forged to certain degree by what side of town we happen to have grown up on.

All I'm really trying to say here is that life is sometimes complicated and not always clear cut, black and white. There maybe times it is best to fight even when you don't HAVE to. I don't know. I personally don't have any answers to any of life's difficult questions. I sure have a whole lot fewer answers now than I did when I was 19 years old. That much I do know.

Ed

"The quality of a man is determined by how he treats someone who can do nothing for him or can do nothing to him"

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by TomMarker
My thought is that is a collosally egotistical statement. Do YOU understand budo? If so, would you have to ask this question to a group of anonymous people whose credentials you are largely unaware of?
I have known Mark for over a decade, and I can vouch for the fact that he knows budo. He has lived here in Japan for longer than I have, and has studied Goju-ryu extensively in that time. How long has Tom Marker lived here?

Originally posted by TomMarker
It's like when schools adopt "zero tolerance" policies towards kids fighting. Not all fights are mutal duals, and sometimes bullies make life difficult and conflict unavoidable. The child being picked on defends himself and is punished.
True, but the schoolyard is a poor analogy for real life.

Originally posted by TomMarker
I think you are selling your student's intelligence short if you tell them that it is wrong to fight, never fight, etc. Students can understand that there are gray areas and understand that while fighting may not be an acceptable solution, allowing yourself to be bullied is even more unacceptable.
Mark didn't say it was wrong to fight; he said there was always another choice. If you find yourself in an alley with your back to the wall, you're stupid. What were you doing in the alley in the first place? And, when the armed gang started following you down the alley, why did you keep going? These B-movie scenarios are far removed from real life, and even more so from budo.
Datte, shushukouju da mon...

[CEB]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

...the schoolyard is a poor analogy for real life.


Why is it? I agree this is true for the most part. I think a big reason that is true is becasue of mobility. The ability not to be there is important. However in situations where people find themselves captive to a particular envirnoment there is always a greater chance of being subjected to abusive, bullying behavior. It happens at school because children have to be there. It happens in prisons because of the captive condition of the prison population. It also happens to people who find themselves captive because of social and/or economic conditions. During the old days at Cabrini the only way in and out of the towers was through the elevators. If you controlled the vators you controlled the housing complex. I wonder if the neighborhood is better now. I heard they were in the process or have already took down the towers.

[Sochin]

Tom, Mark and Tony,

hi guys,

let's be careful and keep our remarks to pro and con the ideas not the man speaking them, ok?

We can all see where it started, let's all help it to stop here.

thanks.

[Markaso]

Mr. Truscott -


I agree that we should be discussing the subject. And if you want to say something directly to a person, e-mail him/her.


No problem here all I was doing was a little blocking from an attack.;)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by CEB
Why is it?
Because if you try anything, I'll tell my mummy on you.

[n2shotokai]

I have one student who constantly suffers from the what if's. I have three standard responses.

1. What if frogs had wings? They wouldn't bump their a$$es when they landed. What if's can go on forever.

2. Leave. But what if ..... Leave! But ......Leave!

Alleys! I was on a tour of the orient with Sho Kosugi in 1978. Toward the end of the tour we were in Tapei, Taiwan. I was out one evening with one of the locals and as we were heading back to my hotel, my new found friend took a shortcut through an alley.

Halfway down the alley a woman called us from a doorway and the next thing I new we were surrounded by six people. Just like a bad kung fu movie they circled around us as we stood back to back. Everyone was screaming at each other in Chinese. The situation only seemed to get more tense as my friend in his limited English said "you, three" and pointed to half the group and indicated he would take the other three. This guy had been around and was very cool. Myself, I had about 5-6 years of experience. Oh did I mention they had weapons, knives, sticks etc.? At this point I felt for sure I would die in that alley. Why couldn't my friend take the 5 guys and I'll take my best shot at the woman? Somebody tell my mommy I loved her!

The sreaming in Chinese reached a feverish pitch when my buddy said something and they all jumped back, walked backwards a few steps and took off running. My friend just stood there grinning. On the way back to the hotel he could not tell me what happened due to his limited English. When we got back to the hotel Sho Kosugi spoke to him and found out that since I had this blondish hair he told the gang I was Chuck Norris and that is why they took of running.

I also found the guy I was with was raised fighting on the streets there and most likely I could have just watched the fun from the sideline even with the weapons.

Looking back on that incident I am amazed. Although we could not leave and my friend had been in so many fights it was just a game to him what did he choose to do? He creatively found a way out of the situation without violence.

The day after 9-11 I was threatened by a middle eastern looking guy on the street. My response was to apologize profusely for offending him (I did nothing). My young daughter was with me and I could have easily decided to justify taking this guy down to eliminate the threat to my daughter. After I apologized several times the guy left. To me it was so easy to do. My dignity doesn't need defending and he didn't require medical attention. It was a win win situation.

This leads me to my third response to what if. I feel that with added proficiency in martial arts comes the added responsiblity to avoid violence (and protect idiots from themselves). Use your brain, find a way out without violence. If you find yourself unable to do so will you find later that a physical response was in fact a failure on your part?

Steve Beale

[CEB]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Because if you try anything, I'll tell my mummy on you.

Not around here. Momma isn't around to fight your fights in this neighborhood. You must have went to one of those fancy British schools where all the boys wear those prissy looking short pants. :laugh:

We did have a case of Momma coming to the rescue at a local high a couple of weeks ago. One of our yudansha who works as security for the local school district told us about it. A girl was being picked on by a group a other girls and her momma got tired of it and came to school with a butcher knife and tired to stab one of the girls in the cafeteria. Two teachers tackled the mother and disarmed her. No one was physically hurt but it puts a new meaning one the phrase I'm going to tell mommy on you.

[Kimpatsu]

A British father beat went to school, pushed his way into class, and beat up the two kids who were always bullying his son. He claimed he was making a "citizen's arrest".
He was sent to prison.

[CEB]

Hopefully the mother that broke into Southeast High with the knife will also.

[CEB]

Maybe if we bring God based religion into our public school system we would have a more peaceful learning environment. :D

[n2shotokai]

Originally posted by CEB
Maybe if we bring God based religion into our public school system we would have a more peaceful learning environment. :D

We have good schools and bad schools in our city. The good schools have a tremendous amount of parent involvement as well as the parents truly being interested in their childs education.

I was going to say I feel the answer is parent involvement but the parents mentioned above got involved :rolleyes:

Steve Beale

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by CEB
Maybe if we bring God based religion into our public school system we would have a more peaceful learning environment.
You had better be joking.

[kusanku]

Yes, Heaven forfend we bring God into it.Lord knowa what damage that would cause.:D

I take the question 'what if you have no other choice than to fight" to mean what if there is no other way than to physically defend oneself and or others? Sometimes there isn't, otherwise the martial arts would not need to exist except as dueling arts or battlefield supplements.

Well, if you have to defend yourselves, or others, then you had better have a firm,calm spirit, a strong mind and mindset, and strong, effective strategy and tactical sense, and good techniques that work quickly from a natural position.That which is sometimes called seite or natural hand.

Meaning that, if you are attacked and most especially unexpectedly, you will be standing or sitting or lying down in a natural position, not in a defensive stance, because if you have all the time to get into position, get your ma ai, etc., you probably had time to get out of there too.

So if someone jumps you, up close and unexpectedly, and your training is good, you will react just fast enough to be able to move from a natural position and do something to defend yourself or others.

If your training in whatever skill set has been realistic, ie faking the circumstances of a real attack well enough, such as in doing kata or kihon or kumite drills as you would do them in real defense, with the spontaneity, speed and power with fluidity necessary to have a real response,then you may well succeed.

Otherwise, best pray. Not bad advice to start with, and here we end the kata where it begins. I was told in the Military during the Vietnam War( though I was not to wind up in cpountry, I almost wound up quite near it and as a North Vietnamese interpreter I certainly could have, so was prepared therefore) that there are no atheists in foxholes, and the same may be true of life or death situations. Be surprised who you call for help from sometimes.Even more surprised at who answers.:D

[Kimpatsu]

No one answers because there's no one there.
There are indeed atheists in foxholes. I've spoken to some of them. Vietnam vets who were up country and have never needed an imaginary friend in the sky.
The point about training to develop good zanshin is that as soon as you sense danger, you adopt an appropriate stance. In addition, there's idori waza, which are performed from seiza or a kneeling position to practice being attacked whilst seated.
HTH.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

You had better be joking.

I was going to just say yes I was joking, but really I don't know. I don't have any answers to difficult questions like these. I'm just a computer programmer. On a daily basis I deal with easy things because generally computers do what I tell them to do. With good planning and front-end analysis I can nail down ahead of time exactly what I need to tell the computers to do. Hard stuff starts when I come home to my wife and children because they don't seem to be as compliant with my wishes and their behavior is very erratic and unpredictable at times, especially the female members of the household. Real life people issues are hard and I don't have any answers any of this difficult stuff.

But yes the reason for my comment was to lay a joke on Tony because I was familiar up front with his views on God from some of our past conversations.

[Markaso]

Originally posted by CEB
Maybe if we bring God based religion into our public school system we would have a more peaceful learning environment. :D

Mr. Boyd - I too am familiar with Mr. Kehoes view and I hope doesn't mean that we have to bring him into our schools. That would truly be scary!:)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by CEB
Hard stuff starts when I come home to my wife and children
The movie director Sam Raimi said much the same thing. Being a movie director is fabulous, because everybody on the set does what you say. Then he goes home to his teenage kids, and they ignore him...

Originally posted by CEB
But yes the reason for my comment was to lay a joke on Tony because I was familiar up front with his views on God from some of our past conversations.
You are a dead man! :D

[Markaso]

Originally posted by CEB


I

But yes the reason for my comment was to lay a joke on Tony because I was familiar up front with his views on God from some of our past conversations.

Sorry all for the misquote:smilejapa


This is what it should have been........ plus........


Mr. Boyd - I too am familiar with Mr. Kehoes view and I hope doesn't mean that we have to bring him into our schools. That would truly be scary!:)

I must have been sleepy that night!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Markaso
I must have been sleepy that night!
You're always sleepy. :D

[Markaso]

Only in conversations with you:p

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Markaso
Only in conversations with you:p
Maybe, but you're dozy all the time. :D

[Markaso]

I guess that if this is the "What if syndrome" thread I guess again I should respond appropriately.......Soooo What if I am dozy all the time it still does not account for your lack of conversational ability that seems to make me that way :shot: :p

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Markaso
...it still does not account for your lack of conversational ability that seems to make me that way
Good to know I'm having an effect on you. :smash:

[Markaso]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Good to know I'm having an effect on you. :smash:

Hey watch out with that hammer! side step, duck, draw and shoot

:shot: ........Gotch ya!:p

[Kimpatsu]

No you didn't, 'cos my trusty minions jump in the way and take the bullets for me. Then the survivors gun you down. Na na na na na. :moon:

[Markaso]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No you didn't, 'cos my trusty minions jump in the way and take the bullets for me. Then the survivors gun you down. Na na na na na. :moon:


If your trust minions jumped in the way and took the bullets for you....... Where did the suvivors come from:confused: the gun I used had silver bullets and there would not be any survivors ......not even you, you evil thing you :p. But since you are such a persistant devil I guess there is only one one more thing that I can do that I know will work , eating a lot of garlic:toot . and sending you to Detroit by air mail:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Kimpatsu]

As opposed to you, who will be sent home air freight.
BTW, silver is a friend to the fey. ;)

[Markaso]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

BTW, silver is a friend to the fey. ;)


Well it shouldn't be so there:p

[Jay Vail]

Mark,

That is a tough one when asked by a student. But saying there are always options (such as not fighting) is not a reasoned response. Sometimes there are no options but to fight. John, I cannot agree that a fight always involves a “mutual acceptance.” Sometimes, you contribute to the situation. But sometimes you don’t. Consider:

* You are sitting on a bus and someone in the seat behind you snakes an arm around your neck and begins to choke you.

* You are walking down the aisle of a similar bus and someone punches you in the nuts.

* You are sitting talking with a friend and someone comes up and slaps a head lock on you and begins to choke you.

* You are standing there talking to an obnoxious person and his friend comes up from behind and starts pounding you in the head.

* You are having an extremely heated discussion with someone and a second someone approaches from your 3 o’clock with a knife which he intends to use and in fact does.

* You are standing in the hallway at school and someone swings you up against the lockers and lays a forearm across your throat and starts to press. You cannot breathe . . .

* You are at a soccer game and you exchange words with a hothead. He takes a swing at you.

* You get followed home by someone who is in the grip of road rage. He comes into your driveway and starts screaming.

Every one of these examples actually happened. Except for the last one (and maybe the second to the last), you have no choice but to give battle or be seriously hurt.

I would tell them, if you are attacked and you cannot retreat, defend yourself. Otherwise, try to talk yourself out of the fight. Fights are nasty, ugly, hurtful things, and nobody wins a true fight; one only survives. You don’t want to be involved in one if you can avoid it. But sometimes you can’t. Even if you "win" you can end up in jail, so be careful what you do even when you fight. Don't kick people in the head. Generally, don’t let your mouth get out of hand. Keep it under control and keep calm. Remember that violence is real and people will really try to hurt you, even kill you, as unbelievable as can seem. Act accordingly. Don’t freeze if it comes your way. Use the least amount of force necessary to render the other unable to harm you.

Comment for Tom: on the schoolyard not being an analog for real life, I respectfully must disagree. I have found that all of life’s greatest lessons are learned there, as some other philosopher has said. Grownups are just kids in disguise and they do exactly the same things and act exactly as they did in the third grade at recess. This is especially true in litigation, in which I make my living.

[Markaso]

Mr. Vail



First, a basic E-Budo rule is to sign your name.

Second is to address your comment and here goes.

Agreed, that you should defend yourself in an attack. After all, is not the practice of Budo for defense?
But what bothers me is that all of the scenarios you put forth all blame the other person is if the other person being attacked did nothing. Well...... in an extreme and I do mean extreme case, this might happen. I have found however that people tend to react to a reaction as opposed to just reacting. As for fights being ugly ....... agreed. I think, though, that awareness is your best friend.

:toast:

[Jay Vail]

Mark,

My name is up there in the left top corner above where it says member. I do not hide behind made up internet handles.

I agree that a person's attitude and behavior can have a lot to do with whether they are a target of violence. Ideally, a person should be humble and act to deflect and discourage violence, and avoid places where it is likely to happen and people who are likely to be violent.

I was not trying to dispute that point but rather to make a different one, that sometimes violence is forced on you no matter who well you behave and you have no option but to defend yourself. Certainly you will agree that this can be the case, as in the situations I read about recently:

1. Woman is carrying out the trash to the dumpster at her apartment complex. A man jumps out from behind the dumpster and attempts to drag her away and rape her.

2. Woman wakes up in bed in the middle of the night to find a man straddling her poking a gun in her face.

In both instances, neither woman did anything to encourage the attacks. Both women involved fought back and saved themselves. Indeed, the second woman, using "martial arts techniques" she said she had learned years ago, *disarmed* her attacker and killed him.

Sadly, violence cannot always be avoided and one should always be ready for it when it happens. You cannot assume that your behavior will deflect all attacks, and respectfully, I argue that it is unreasonable, and hence a disservice to students, to teach that it can.

Perhaps a more ethical method of self defense would teach using only the minimum amount of force necessary to protect oneself, taking all the facts and circumstances of the encounter into consideration. Aikido and judo, for instance, clearly provide the tools for such a graduated response and implicitly teach it. Karate schools in my experience rarely do that, and I know of two instances in which a karate student responded to an assault in a manner in which he was taught in class, the recipient of the technique died, and the student was prosecuted for manslaughter. One of them was convicted.

[Markaso]

Mr. Vail

Sorry about the name but I am used to seeing it at the bottom too.

Agreed, Sometimes there are times that violence is thrust upon us and at that time we are faced with a few choices. Especially if that person has had any type of MA training. Unfortunately when that happens, some of our other choices get closed quit quickly.

You also make a good point about not to do a disservice to the students by teaching them that only there behavior will protect them. I do not. But sadly, some students do not watch their behavior enough and that can and usually does get them into a bit of a jam.


As for the difference between Karate and Judo and Aikido ....... Yes, very different methods indeed as to handling oneself and others. But in my experience I would say that there is a lot more to Karate than what is on the surface. Many techniques that will, if done correctly, be just as efficient to handling a bad situation as Aikido or Judo without the use of excessive force.

[Jay Vail]

Mark said:
in my experience I would say that there is a lot more to Karate than what is on the surface. Many techniques that will, if done correctly, be just as efficient to handling a bad situation as Aikido or Judo without the use of excessive force.

You are quite right. However, most students do not learn them. In my experience, most students stay two years or less. During that time, they typically drill in responses that involve blows that can have serious adverse consequences, i.e., death. Indeed, many instructors do not train students about the consequences of their blows. I am working with a Parker kenpo group now and even the higher ranking students there are generally ignorant of targeting and the consequences of hitting various places, and the lower ranks and beginners are lamentably so. Many of the drills involve responses out of propotion to the threat: striking someone hard in the throat against a simple grab or push.

I first started thinking about the issue of disproportionate response after a couple of events. Once our instructor invited into our class some people who worked in a mental hospital, who showed us how they dealt with mentally ill individuals when they became violent. It was pure judo/aikido. They were not allowed to strike anyone. I had the same experience when discussing these issues with police and prison guards (I used to defend excessive use of force cases in the Florida prison system.). Indeed, in Florida one martial arts instructor's statewide program for law enforcement officers was cancelled because it was strike rather than control oriented. Then there were the two incidents outlined above in which *green belts* killed their opponents by simple head kicks of the kind practiced all the time in the dojo.

Last, there is this example. I learned of it from an interview with the police officer involved. She stopped an individual for a traffic violation. During the stop, the driver, a large muscular man, became aggitated and attacked the officer, a much smaller woman. In defending herself from his attack, she thrust him in the eye, causing him serious eye injury. It was a long time ago, but I believe she destroyed his eye. A police review board cleared her, finding her use of force appropriate under the circumstances because of the violence of the attack and the size difference between the combatants. However the driver sued the officer civilly and she was forced to defend herself in court. She was very upset about that, a circumstance you can only understand if you have ever been on the receiving end of a civil lawsuit and stand to lose your house and your bank account. Unfortunately, I did not learn the outcome of the civil action.

The lesson I took from this is that even when you are legally justified under the criminal law in using deadly force (as this would be classified under our state's law), you may expose yourself to civil liability. God alone knows how a jury will view your actions. Jury trials are a cr*pshoot. Even when you are morally and legally justified, the consequences of your action -- to you -- can be harsh.

Thus, while I love karate and have been at it 30 years, I have serious doubts whether the training one receives in the dojo in most schools adequately prepares the student for the street, because the legal environment in which one operates must be taken into account as much as the precise dynamics of the violent encounter in one's choice of responses. When your life is on the line, the full bore response is appropriate, as students are trained. But many if not most encounters are not "for your life" and involve threats of a lesser magnitude that have to be dealt with appropriately, which involves a proportionate response. Karate teachers seem to do a poor job of preparing lower ranking students to make judicious choices when violence is forced upon them and they have no chance to avoid a fight. They could, but they do not. It is a training fault rather than a system fault.

I might also mention that as a teacher if you fail to teach such proportionate responses, you may yourself bear some civil liability to an injured party and may find yourself a defendant in a civil action. As yet, I am not aware of any case in which this has happened, but it is a real possibility that I would not discount. Plaintiffs' lawyers are always looking for a deep pocket and it doesn't take much for them to add another party to their lawsuit.

Your brother in karate . . .

[Markaso]

Mr. Vail




I am very happy to have been and am still training here in Japan. I have been lucky to train with some great Sensei. I agree that the Sensei is a very important part of ones training. It is too bad that, in some or many cases, a connection has not been made between the students and their Sensei or maybe it has and it was a bad one.


As for the Police and prison guards ....... they do have a serious and dangerous job to do ....... but I agree that it does not mean that the use of excessive force should be used or condoned. Many of these professionals already have an attitude that is really not to be blamed on them but more so on the job that they do and the way that they need to react time and time again, but I still think that it is no excuse for excessive force.


I think that the link between Sensei and student is a vital one and that it is something that the teacher should be aware of at all times. Yes, things can go wrong. Why is that Sensei teaching things that the student should not be tough? Why is that student going out and trying these techniques? Yes there are a lot of things that go into an equation that can go wrong on both sides of the fence. I feel that when one is teaching there is a lot of responsibility that has to be carried by the Sensei.


By the way, what style are you learning?
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