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Elf Tengu
19th January 2003, 11:39
If you train in Japan at the relevant annual special course, tou can purchase (if you're not already borasic from getting there) the swords being taught on that course, all specially commissioned by Hatsumi sensei. These have included shinobigatana like the example shown in 'Ninjutsu History and Tradition'. But does anyone know where such swords, even steel bladed replicas, are available anywhere else?
We've all got at least one of the commercially accepted totally straight ninjato (Paul Chen's Hanwei Practical Ninjato being the best IMHO once you've ground off the kuji decoration on the tsuba) but they are very different from Sensei's, and, one would assume, from many other functional swords used historically by ninja.

There was once a stainless steel bladed (okay for training but not for prolongued test-cutting) chisaikatana made for a short time by one of the Spanish manufacturers but they stopped making them almost as soon as they were on sale. The chisaikatana is literally as its name suggests a short katana, but worn in a full length scabbard. Popular with merchants looking for a loophole in the law forbidding them to wear longswords but allowing them to look like samurai to other classes (and one another no doubt!) but also popular with ninja for the psychological advantage of having a sword that could be drawn far more quickly than a full length katana plus providing saya space for other items such as metsubishi, daggers etc.

This seems to be closer to our Soke's sword than all the square tsuba'd slabs that gather dust on our sword racks whilst we concentrate on katana practice (come on, be honest!) but nobody to my knowledge is currently making one and if anybody does, will it be
affordable?

This is my first post here by the way, apart from a rude joke I posted elsewhere that may get me thrown out in hindsight (gomen nasai)

Very similar to SwordForum.com I have noticed.

Best format for discussion boards on the entire net in my opinion.

Kamiyama
20th January 2003, 00:47
I have taken one of the PC Musashi blades and cut it and reshaped it to my feelings of what I would like as a shinobi katana.. or short sword would be..

Beautiful sword now...

And with the 15 inch handle.. wow.. wonderful contol and power..

peace,
kamiyama, ralph severe

Kamiyama
20th January 2003, 20:54
Here is a photo of the wrap I use on ALL my katana.

kamiyama, ralph severe

Elf Tengu
22nd January 2003, 09:24
Thanks Kamiyama, I did post a reply the other day but it seems to have gone astray. I'll see if I can remember the jist of it!

Oh yes, I was saying that I have also considered shortening a Hanwei sword as a shinobigatana/chisaigatana, but it will have to be a Practical Katana for financial reasons, although I'll try to persuade myself that it's really because the PK blade is slightly less curvy than the rest of the range!

Did you have to cut much off at the tang by the way?

Also, it's hard to see from the pic, but what tsuka-ito type have you used in your binding?

I've bound a couple of blades in a straightforward wind, but only with the cheapest black cotton handle braid.

One trick I've found with rebinding in the usual diamond twist is to avoid the tricky knot at the pommel by cutting the braid at the tsuba end of the hilt and starting the bind back to front without having to undo the knot. Once the ends of the braid are tucked under the fuchi, no-one will ever know.

I should learn the knot one day though.

One extra point that I have also recently discovered is that square tsuba were not all that prevalent, even on the simplest homemade shinobigatana, but that the more widely popular four petal shape found on most blades was more likely to be the norm. In any case, if its primary purpose was to serve as a foot rest against walls (I often wonder how much we should take with a pinch of salt!) then pretty much any tsuba would suffice. I'm sure the occasional young samurai peeped over walls at geisha using this trick!

Thanks again

poryu
22nd January 2003, 13:47
Hi all

2 points

1. for a blade only try www.kriscutlery.com they used to do a cheap katana blade for about $40 - $50 I have one and its great. I dont know if they still do them

2. Adam - I dont know who told you chisa Katana came in normal sized Saya. I must have handled at least a dozen old chisa Katana and I also own one in Satsuma rebellion mounts. None of these had long Saya (normal Katana length saya). All have proper matching length Saya for the blade. Granted there will be a few exceptions but as a general rule the Saya on Chisa Katana does not have a longer saya compared to the blade length

Kamiyama
22nd January 2003, 21:21
Did you have to cut much off at the tang by the way?

kamiyama, no, I would never shorten the tsuka - handle.. in any way.. I like them long.. the sword handle that is..

Also, it's hard to see from the pic, but what tsuka-ito type have you used in your binding?

kamiyama, explain?


kamiyama, ralph severe

Kamiyama
22nd January 2003, 23:12
Thanks Rick...

I use 550 cord... no insie lines...
It is soft and very good for a grip..

I dislike cotton a great deal...
Leather gets wet and slips a lot.. dries to hard..
I dilike round cordage too.. I like flat..

I use the cordage a great deal being into woodland survival skills...
tenmon, chimon, tenton juppo, ura goton no ho, omote goton no ho, hojojutsu, etc..

I can put up photos on how I wrap this if you like.. everyone can see them and learn ho to do it..

I'm been working with rope because I was a boy scout when I was young and still have not matured yet.. so I still play with it a great deal.. women like it too...

ok
Any questions, please feel free to ask...

kmaiyama, ralph severe

Soulend
23rd January 2003, 00:03
Mr. Severe, could you post a picture of the kissaki? Also, how did you fasten the cord? It appears that you got rid of the kashira...

Kamiyama
23rd January 2003, 05:24
kashira

kamiyama, ralph severe

Kamiyama
23rd January 2003, 05:27
kissaki

kamiyama, ralph severe

Elf Tengu
23rd January 2003, 09:11
Kamiyama,

What's 550 cord and where can you get it?

Why did someone ask for a pic of the kissaki by the way? Isn't the sword only shortened at the tang? Because otherwise you would be exposing core steel, or in the case of hand forged (but not folded) blades such as the less expensive end of the Paul Chen range, the lower Rockwell hardness of the two?

Soulend
23rd January 2003, 11:06
I asked to see a picture of the kissaki because he said he had cut down the sword, and I was wondering how he maintained the integrity of the hamon. I was under the impression that he had cut it down on the blade side.

550 cord is general-purpose cord commonly used in the military. It has a working load strength of 550 lbs.

Sorry I missed the kashira in the first pic. You did a pretty good job!

Jeramis
23rd January 2003, 11:11
I did a lot of research on this and contacted quite a few different sword stores seeing if I could track one of these down or have one made. All of the responses I got were refusals except for one.

http://budogu.com

I sent an email at this website and got a reply saying that they would make it for me. This included them making a saya that was longer then the actual blade. I took pictures of one of the shinobigatana that a friend had (not straight ninja-to) and also sent in the measurements of the saya, blade, and handle.
I have not decided to make the purchase yet but just offering the information as a possible source to obtain one of these. If anyone does decide to get one I would like to hear what you think about it.
I also should mention that when I sent the requests I was asking for a practice blade and not one used for cutting.

matthew18
26th January 2003, 01:02
hi

I am also very interested in getting my own Shinobi Gatana, i was thinking about using a Wakizashi and putting on a longer handle and a larger saya. Would a wakizashi be the right size for a Shinobi Gatana?

matthew morgan
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

Kamiyama
26th January 2003, 04:42
Hello,
I believe the blade can be between 20 to 26 inches..

It is said the tool used by many shinobi were thiner and shorter..
I really like to have mine thick and able to do test cutting.
I don't feel a thin blade would hole up very well.

I believe the blade is a personal tool.

I would get what feels good to you.

Ken Sensei, Missouri Budo Taijutsu Dojo, has some wonderful photos of cutting.. look them up..
He is very serious about his training.
I would ask him about where to get good blades...

I use,
http://www.888knivesrus.com/

They are totally wonderful.
And have the best prices.

kamiyama, ralph severe

poryu
26th January 2003, 10:20
HI

Ken Harding is actually a registered dealer for the Paul Chen blades. and products.

if you ask him via private email he will deal with you.

he will also try to match any price you find on the USA web.

Elf Tengu
26th January 2003, 12:29
Hi,

I know I started this thread, but I did already have a few ideas in mind as to how to knock up a shinobigatana-style sword, but with training, a full time job and starting an arts degree with the Open University, plus being one of these 'new men' that shares the household chores with his good lady, I don't know when I'll ever find the time! I might suggest the following to Matthew though, as he's UK based, and he'll also avoid a nasty shock on the doorstep when he has to pay out for VAT and miscellaneous 'other' charges! (I had to pay out £54.56 for some videos from the States recently,ouch!).

Anyhow, in the UK, Paul Chen swords (including the Practical Wakizashi, which might suit your project if you want a waki blade) can be found at www.barringtons-swords.co.uk

The PW is about £120 and is a fairly sharp carbon blade

For really cheap stainless blades, if it's just for dojo training, www.dredd.biz are unbeatable on price, although their limited selection do tend to come with nasty plastic 'dragon' shaped handles, but you can easily make your own wooden handle to fit.

poryu
26th January 2003, 12:57
Hi All

if your in the UK and you want anything that si sproduce dby chen let me know.

I am also a dealer in the Uk for chen products.

I am also the cheapest in the Uk - cheaper than Barringtons swords

matthew18
27th January 2003, 14:57
hi

thanks guys for ya help, i did a little research myself and came up with this dodgy website on how to make your won ninja weapons, but did come across and interesting pics of a nice Shinobi Gatana.
There were some instructions on how to make it, but shockingly dangerous. Think ill pass on that one, Ill stick to what i know, lol :D

heres the pic anyway and cheers for ya good info.

matthew morgan
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

matthew18
27th January 2003, 14:59
just another pic.....