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Tripitaka of AA
22nd January 2003, 08:13
Please forgive my uneducated, simplistic and naiive question, but I hope to learn something.

I understand that the Four Noble Truths defined by Gautama Siddartha show that;
All Life is Suffering,
All Suffering is caused by Desire,
An End of Desire will bring an End to Suffering
The Way to do this is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path.

But do we have to strive to be empty of desire? Or do we need desire in order to exist in our relevant societies. As Kenshi following a form of Zen Buddhist teachings, are we required to strive towards the ascetic life of a monk, or is it just OK to know the terminology?

I appreciate that this question is so open, that a book of very small print writing still might not be able to answer it, but I'm hoping that the Wise Men of Kempo can find a few simple answers.

It is part of my plan, to re-educte myself in the ways of Howa, using the collected knowledge of the illustrious E-Budo members. Lest this forum become just another shallow puddle of witty and humourous chit-chat of no particular value.

Onegaishimasu

jonboy
22nd January 2003, 11:27
Hi,

I think in response to your opening line I would have to write please forgive my uneducated, simplistic and naiive answer.

Your description of the four noble truths is the same as what I am led to believe. The problem I have, however, is that they relate to Buddhism in general and I thought (and I admit my knowledge on the subject is limited - so please correct me if I am wrong) Zen Buddhism was something different - especially Kongo Zen Buddhism.

The way I see Kongo Zen is (very) briefly as follows: help make others' lives better as a result of your own direct and indirect actions. And, I fear, rather controversially I see Buddhism as a method of fulfilling the aim of becomming enlightened. It presents release from existence (nirvana) as the greatest good. Therefore it is for the benefit of the individual, not the whole.

So in order not to stray too far I believe that as kenshi we are not required to strive towards a lack of desire as long as we are not forgetting our surroundings.

After all we DO live half for ourselves...

laters,
jon

tony leith
22nd January 2003, 12:58
I agree with Jon on this. The attainment of nirvana as the ultimate goal of Buddhist practice is something that's always bothered me - I know I'm cheerfully trampling over millenia of exigesis on the subject, but on an ethical level to me it's always seemed about as productive as running into a closet and shutting the door behind you. I think trying to cultivate what I've called previously a balanced sense of self which takes account of the needs of others is much harder, because it isn't an abstraction - it's something you have to do in the round of daily life.

The first howa talk I ever jeard Mizuno Sensei give , he went on (at some length) about a Japanese farmer who'd given it all up to become a monk, striven for decades to achieve enlightment, failed, given it all up (in reverse this time), and went back home. As he came over the brow of the hill to his village and saw the cherry blossoms in bloom, he achieved enlightenment. At this point, having strung us along for a good five-ten minutes, Sensei paused and said "I don't know what you think about this, but I think this is rubbish. Enlightenment may be something for the next life. I don't know about the next life. Worry about this one." Seems fair enough to me.

Tony leith

Enigma
22nd January 2003, 14:07
So should we desire no desire???

I've got nothing intelligent to say, so I'll shut up, hehe

Tripitaka of AA
22nd January 2003, 18:28
Thanks for the responses so far, just what I was after. It is important to know what we are, what we are studying and what we hope to achieve. Too easy to just say "Kongo Zen", healthy mind, thinking mens art and leave it at that... I believe the forum can offer an opportunity to share our interpretations of Howa.

Always bearing in mind that what we say here is the shared chit-chat of Kenshi-in-training and not necessarily the "Gospel according to Hombu". Dojo training with a qualified instructor is where the genuine lessons are to be learned, we are just chewing the fat so to speak :)

Dom C
23rd January 2003, 01:44
Great topic!
I'm not involved in shorinji kempo ,i hope you dont mind my 2 cents.

In my opinion(who the h-- am i??)...it can't hurt(or can it?) to strive towards enlightenment,but never expect to even come close to reaching it.
Just -TRY TO- live each day with 'right view','right action','right speech','right mindfullness' etc ,and who knows what can happen.At the very least it will enhance your relationships.

just an observation. :beer:

Thanks!

colin linz
23rd January 2003, 07:52
I’ll have to be brief here as I don’t have much time. I was reading a book written by an american phycoligist about his many talks with the Dali Lama. The Dali Lama’s take on the issue of desire is not that we should divest our selves of desire, but that we understand what is a realistic desire. This way we can plan to achieve those desires that are achievable, and not worry about those that are unobtainable.

There is a concept used in Total Quality Management that could fit this idea. This concept is termed circles of influence and helps you visualise what is obtainable at the present time. In this process the aims that you would like to achieve, but you have no influence over at this time are put aside in their own circle, the importance hear is that you take them away from your immediate concern but don’t forget about them. They stay outside you immediate concern until something changes and you have some control over them. Sorry about the brief explanation, I hope you can see where I’m going with train of thought.

Kesshu

Kimpatsu
23rd January 2003, 08:21
Gassho.
You must be in a hurry, Colin; far more spelling errors than usual. ;)
Kesshu.

colin linz
24th January 2003, 04:10
My apologies Tony. I should never have sat down at the computer; I was filling in some time before leaving for training and the next thing I knew I was running late.

In my previous post I was trying to get across the concept of recognising your desires, understanding if the desire is really something worthwhile, and being able to formulate an achievable plan to reach the desire. If the desire is say the latest computer you may think do I really need it? Is it something that will bring value to my life? Can I afford it? One circumstance could be that you use the computer as a family computer, and your current one still does everything you require, but you have just seen the latest iMac and it looks so cool that you just have to have it. On the other hand you may be a graphic artist and a new computer would enhance your production. Examining these two circumstances shows one desire to be a product of advertising and the need to one up on your mates. Where the second desire is a genuine need and will improve your business. The second circumstance would be worth planing how to achieve, and the first circumstance does not really have the same legitimacy.

We could continue on and examine what desires will truly improve your life and add genuine happiness, and what desires are superficial and won’t contribute to any genuine improvements and are merely products of the commercialist life styles we lead.

Kesshu

Kimpatsu
31st January 2003, 23:32
Originally posted by bruceb
Should we try to be like Buddha?
Yes.

Originally posted by bruceb
What kind of problems are you trying to solve?
All of them.

Originally posted by bruceb
Actually, Buddha didn't solve anything, but diverge to method if ignoring life by seeking Nirvana.
:confused: Can anyone translate this sentence into English?

Originally posted by bruceb
Don't we have Prozac for that today?
This not only trivialises what we do, it's glib, shallow and, in context, utterly meaningless.

colin linz
1st February 2003, 00:51
Bruce,

I think that Budda did anything but ignore problems. What he did was to rationalise them, this combined with his understanding of human nature inspired him to create the 4 truths. These are very simple philosophies, but they are much harder to achieve than to recite. The problems of man/women mostly stem from the same thing, the desire to do/have something, combined with the inability to achieve the desire.

By accepting our human nature and understanding which desires are superficial or not achievable at the present we can be more at peace with ourselves, and place more energy into attaining those things that we really want, this is what will truly bring happiness into our lives. This is the stage that we breakaway into individual values, up until this point the process of thought is the same for everyone.

Kimpatsu
1st February 2003, 01:23
Gassho.
Colin-san, Bruce Baker is a troll. Look at his other posts on e-budo, and on Aikiweb. (www.aiki-web.net) Don't expect him to say anything of value.
Kesshu.

Tripitaka of AA
1st February 2003, 11:08
...and Tony knows about these things ;)

Kimpatsu
1st February 2003, 12:23
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
...and Tony knows about these things ;)
I'm not sure how to take that. We all know I'm not a troll, I'm a vampire. :D

Tripitaka of AA
1st February 2003, 21:29
Perhaps I am wrong to make the assumption, but I thought that as one of the Undead, you would probably hang out with all the other ghouls, ghosties and long-leggedy beasties of the supernatural. That and the fact that anyone who posts as often as you do, should be able to spot someone whose intentions in posting are perhaps more self-serving than altruistic.

Having said all that, I'm not sure if Bruce can be described as a troll as long as he contributes posts that extend to two paragraphs or more of reasoned and readable prose. Trolls are typically kings of the one-liner, out to incite others without extending themselves. But we shall get to know in the next few weeks I suppose...

I know that a lot of trolls are friendly and mean no harm. I try to treat all my E-budo friends as chums.

Tripitaka of AA
17th October 2003, 04:56
So how many of us stray from the Eightfold path... what is the one that talks about Right Employment? Isn't there one about Alcohol too? Sorry, too forgeful to remember, too lazy to look it up... ;)

shugyosha
17th October 2003, 21:32
from linchi (famous zen teacher)

"there is no enlightenment! eat, drink and !!!!, the ignorant will laught but the wise will understand"

The baghavad gita stress also on the duty on every person in every place of the society, in this way, every person can be enlightened as long as they do their duty (karma yoga)

the bagavad gita talk a lot about Ajurna, who is about to meat is brother and sisters in a deadly fight (brother and sisters as human)
but he cry and dont understand why he has to kill them.
Krisna appear and explain him that he need not to worry about the consequences of his action, that karma is to act, and that he is here for a reason, therefore he must fullfill his destiny and lead his army to victoy.

those example will seems contradictory but they are not.

for the question "should we try to become budha"
i think there is a small budha in every person waiting to awake, there is no need to imitate someone else.

Tripitaka of AA
18th October 2003, 09:31
I've lost my Babelfish, can anyone paraphrase Jimi's piece into something more readable :wave:

shugyosha
19th October 2003, 14:05
well i am affraid you will have to read those book by yourself if you want to understand....

Kimpatsu
19th October 2003, 14:08
Gassho.
The point David's making, Jimi, is that your post is too garbled to make any sense. He's asking you to rewrite it in more comprehensible English.
Kesshu.

shugyosha
19th October 2003, 15:32
oh i realise that i omited some things wich make it hard two understand withtout knowledge in the gita and zen....
but i'm not going to tell the whole story of Ajurna and krisna...

so i could just say kongo zen is like karma yoga
and the budha is not outside but inside.

i wont quote linchi more, it would just confuse peaple more :)