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Shinobi
30th August 2000, 00:24
What do some of you think of this art? Its claims and structure?

http://www.acay.com.au/~sky-view/kufuweb/classes.htm

Daniel Lee
31st August 2000, 01:54
Eric,

If you are interested in the background to the martial artist who taught the group, one S. Yokota of Sydney, Australia, please email me privately.

Sincerely,

Paul Steadman
11th September 2000, 13:02
Hi Eric and Daniel,

I speak with some authority on this matter as I am aquainted with the instructor of the so-called 'koryu aikijutsu,' school in question. I am also a jiki-deshi of Yokota Satoshi-Sensei (and a former Shinhan-dai of Yoshin Ryu Nakamura-ha Jujutsu/Kobujutsu for western region New South Wales- Australia).

Quote "If you are interested in the background to the martial artist who taught the group, one S. Yokota of Sydney, Australia, please email me privately." D. Lee.

First of all I must state that Yokota-Sensei was not the teacher of this group! Grant South is not a member of Yoshin Ryu Yokota-ha and Yokota-Sensei has never graded Mr. South to Menkyo Inka in Yoshin Ryu Yokota-ha or awarded Mr. South a Mokouroku of Yoshin Ryu Yokota-ha or any other Japanese Jujutsu system.

In 1999 Yokota-Sensei did conduct some weekend (one-day) seminars for Mr. Souths' martial arts school, covering generic Tanto-dori [knife defence], Hojojutsu [arresting cord] and Tanto-jutsu [Knife techniques] etc which were very general in nature and not representative of any particular ryu, as witnessed by myself and several others.

In contrast to the web-site in question and other third-hand sources, Yokota-Sensei is not and has never claimed to be a member of or graded in mainline Yoshin Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, Shibukawa Ryu, Sasai Ryu etc. Yokota-Sensei studied and trained as an Uchi-deshi of Nakayama Kimiyoshi-Shihan for four and half years in Yoshin Ryu Nakayama-ha Jujutsu/Kobujutsu. Yokota-Sensei is currently a student of Sekiguchi Komei-Sensei of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Komei-juku Iai-jutsu, and currently assists with instruction and technical advice at the Sydney Shibu dojo, Australia.

The only grade/certification that Mr. South recieved from Yokota-Sensei was in a generic 'Modern Street Combat Jujutsu,' system developed by Yokota-Sensei for Security Guards and the general public in response to requests for a simple and effective self-defence method. This goshin-jutsu system was taught under the name of Hyosui Ryu Koppo.

The information contained in the web-site in question is obviously full of historical and factual mistakes or ommissions. I could go on, but I will restrain myself for now. I would be interested to hear what others have to say. If anyone would like further information or details, please e-mail me at pbs@globalfreeway.com.au or post your questions or concerns. All the best.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Daniel Lee
13th September 2000, 01:52
Paul,

Interesting post. Perhaps you might be able assist us by addressing the issue of Mr. Yokota?fs instructors names and contact details, as well as documentable licencing he has.

Sincerely,

Paul Steadman
14th September 2000, 08:50
Hi Daniel,

I think it would be more appropriate for you to address any questions you may have concerning Yokota-Sensei, the name of his instructor's and their contact details etc direct to Yokota-Sensei himself. You have met Yokota-Sensei, did you address your questions to him then. When you return to Australia, you should talk with Yokota-Sensei in person.

In the mean time, while you’re in Japan, you might direct your enquiries concerning Mr. Yokotas' current Iai-jutsu instructor, one Sekiguchi Komei-Sensei (21st Headmaster of Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Komei-juku) and their respective registration/membership status with the Nippon Budokan etc to:

Komei Juku Hombu
Nishi-Kamata Royal Heights No. 802
7-50-2 Nishi-Kamata, Otaku, Tokyo
T114, JAPAN

Failing this (the above contact details may not be current) you should contact The President of the Koryu Bujutsukan- Sydney by e-mail to: PFlood@bentine-gems.com.au, he is in constant communications with Sekiguchi-Sensei having recently trained at the hombu in Japan.

It is not my place to discuss details, I may have already over-stepped the bounds by offering the above. Take care, all the best.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Daniel Lee
14th September 2000, 09:27
Paul,

Thanks for the response. I'm still lost as to the contact details for Mr. Yokota?fs instructor of Yoshin Ryu, Mr. Nakayama Kimiyoshi, though. I don't think anyone has ever even seen his picture before. Could you help me out on this one?

Sincerely,

Daniel Lee

Paul Steadman
14th September 2000, 23:35
Hi Again,

This is getting off the thread, but as I said you should contact Yokota-Sensei directly. I'll see what general info I can find in my files concerning Yoshin-ryu Nakayama-ha and I'll e-mail it to you privately.

Shinobi originally posted the question: "What do some of you think of this art? Its claims and structure?

http://www.acay.com.au/~sky-view/kufuweb/classes.htm "

So, what do some of you think of this art? Its claims and structure?

I think web-sites like this lead to confusion and miss-inform the general public as to what the koryu arts are all about.

There seems to be a growing number of modern martial arts instructors out there who want to jump on the koryu band-wagon by writing literature sprinkled with famous names (D. Draeger etc), terminology gleamed from koryu 'Coffee-Table Books,' and the ever present "....koryu bujutsu, are those arts that existed prior to 1868 (pre-Meiji era)...," type of sentences! Not to mention the the totally fabricated histories, lineages (or lack there of), strange curriculums/syllabus/techniques etc. Oh, and don't forget the photographs of said instructors standing (or knealing) next to well-known koryu instructors from Japan (usually at a seminar).

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Daniel Lee
16th September 2000, 01:52
Paul,

Since I'm not associated with your group I'll end here. In my opinion, Mr. Yokota is a good martial artist, but the question remains "is what he doing what he says it is?". I guess it's true that you deserve the teacher you get - "Caveat Emptor"




[Edited by Daniel Lee on 09-15-2000 at 08:10 PM]

George Kohler
16th September 2000, 02:06
Originally posted by Daniel Lee
Paul,

Help me out here - I'll start another thread in the koryu jujutsu forum about Mr. Yokota.



Hey Daniel,

what ever happened to the YSGR thread you were going to start :)

Daniel Lee
16th September 2000, 02:23
Hey George,

How?fs things? Basically Daiwado and KJJR's YSR lineage is legit, although not mainstream (ie. no connection with K. Hoshi-Soke). I think some martial artists have discussed Mr. Sato's track record and performance of YSR.

Personally, I?fve only seen KJJR?fs omotekajo being practiced by Mr. Tanemura on the Samurai Jujutsu video, and J. Wright working on the YSR in the genbukan honbu – world-class, and very fluid, although very different from mainstream. Recently I visited the Futen Dojo site; Is M. Coleman learning it from Mr. Tanemura also?

Cheers, and enjoy the Olympics!

Paul Steadman
16th September 2000, 12:21
Hi Again Daniel,

Your absolutely right, one does deserve the teacher one gets! And I think Mr. Yokotas' current Iaijutsu instructor is right up there. Sekiguchi Komei-Sensei is the best swordsman I've ever seen! It's due to sensei such as Sekiguchi-Sensei [Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu Komei-Juku], Kenji Shimazu-Sensei [Yagyu Shingan-ryu Chikuosha] and Inoue Tsuyoshi Munetoshi-Soke [Hontai Yoshin Ryu](all of whom I've had the honour and priviledge of meeting and briefly training with in Australia) and their respective Australian Shibucho, that I ceased my involvement in gendai-budo and become interested in koryu bujutsu.

Unfortunately for us (in Dubbo & western region NSW) Yokota-Sensei has cut back on Jujutsu instruction and is now concentrating on Iaijutsu, not that we mind though.

Regards,

Paul Steadman



[Edited by Paul Steadman on 09-16-2000 at 06:46 AM]

Paul Steadman
16th September 2000, 13:12
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Daniel Lee
Paul,

Help me out here - I'll start another thread in the koryu jujutsu forum about Mr. Yokota.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


G'day Mate,

How can I be of assistance this time? You seem to be very interested in Mr. Yokotas' background.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Daniel Lee
17th September 2000, 04:40
Thanks for the reply Paul,

As I said in my edited message, After consideration, I think this is probably best left "in house" in the hands of people like yourself, who are associated with Mr. Yokota.

With sincere best wishes,

Paul Steadman
14th July 2012, 14:54
Hello All,

Back in 2001 I stated:




...First of all I must state that Yokota-Sensei was not the teacher of this group! Grant South is not a member of Yoshin Ryu Yokota-ha and Yokota-Sensei has never graded Mr. South to Menkyo Inka in Yoshin Ryu Yokota-ha or awarded Mr. South a Mokouroku of Yoshin Ryu Yokota-ha or any other Japanese Jujutsu system.

In 1999 Yokota-Sensei did conduct some weekend (one-day) seminars for Mr. Souths' martial arts school, covering generic Tanto-dori [knife defence], Hojojutsu [arresting cord] and Tanto-jutsu [Knife techniques] etc which were very general in nature and not representative of any particular ryu, as witnessed by myself and several others....

...The only grade/certification that Mr. South recieved from Yokota-Sensei was in a generic 'Modern Street Combat Jujutsu,' system developed by Yokota-Sensei for Security Guards and the general public in response to requests for a simple and effective self-defence method. This goshin-jutsu system was taught under the name of Hyosui Ryu Koppo...



Having looked further into the matter and on recalling observations and conversations with Satoshi Yokota-shihan and Grant South-sensei, I would like to add that:

Satoshi Yokota-shihan did in fact grade Mr Grant South and awarded him with a Menkyo Kaiden/Menkyo Inka (and related Mokuroku/densho) in Hyosui-ryu Koppo in Sydney in 1999.

I miss-understood and confused Hyosui-ryu Koppo with the modern system that Satoshi Yokota-sensei developed for security and law enforcement personell (named Modern Street Combat Jujutsu, aka: Kenkagei Goshin-ho) which contained techniques and concepts from Hyosui-ryu Koppo (and Yokota-ha Yoshin-ryu jujutsu among others).

I have personally seen the Menkyo Kaiden/Menkyo Inka and mokuroku/densho awarded to Mr Grant South. I also have the written syllabus of Hyosui-ryu Koppo developed by Yokota-shihan and have crossed-referenced it with Mr Grant South's documents and they match up in all aspects.

Grant South-sensei taught his aiki-jujutsu system at the same venue that Yokota-shihan taught at (the esteemed Aoyama Koryu Bujutsu Kan, Sydney NSW) and South-sensei crossed-trained with Yokota-sensei from approx. 1995 too 2000. The manner of this training was more in-depth and comprehensive thatn I previously thought.

I apologise for the miss-understanding and overly critical statements that I formerly made. If anyone requires further details, please contact me at: kodenbujutsu@gmail.com

Regards,

Paul Steadman
14th July 2012, 16:19
Hello,

Here is a photo of part of the menkyo/densho for Hyosui Ryu Koppo, presented to Mr Grant South by Satoshi Yokota-shihan in 1999.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
15th July 2012, 05:10
Hi,

Not looking to get caught up too much in this, but for the record, I'll translate the main points of the section of densho shown in the above picture. The photo indicates that Grant South was awarded the "Hyosui-ryu Koppo Mokuroku" in 1999 by Mr. Yokota, who signed the document using the title of Hyosui-ryu Koppo Soke. I've never heard of such an art - could be old, or it could be that Mr. Yokota created the art.

Also, densho in koryu were not standardized, so "Mokuroku" (catalog of techniques) could be considered a low or high level of initiation depending on the structure of the given art. What I can say though is that nothing in this photo indicates or states that this densho is a "menkyo" or a "menkyo kaiden" (certification of complete transmission).

I'm also not up on what "koryu aikijutsu" has to do with the previously mentioned arts or teachers. If anyone has any insights into koryu aikijutsu, I for one would be interested in hearing more about it. Maybe it made sense 12 years ago? :)

FWIW,

Paul Steadman
15th July 2012, 06:28
Hello Nathan,


...The photo indicates that Grant South was awarded the "Hyosui-ryu Koppo Mokuroku" in 1999 by Mr. Yokota, who signed the document using the title of Hyosui-ryu Koppo Soke. I've never heard of such an art - could be old, or it could be that Mr. Yokota created the art...

The art/system is new and was created by Yokota-sensei in the mid 90s.


...Also, densho in koryu were not standardized, so "Mokuroku" (catalog of techniques) could be considered a low or high level of initiation depending on the structure of the given art. What I can say though is that nothing in this photo indicates or states that this densho is a "menkyo" or a "menkyo kaiden" (certification of complete transmission)...

I'm not sure mate, I can read some of the kanji "off the cuff," but would need my kanji reference for the rest - I think Yokota-senesi used the term densho and mokuroku in this context (most people automatically and mistakenly through in the term menkyo or menjo, when scrolls are referenced. I know I do sometimes - but will endeavour to be more careful in the future).


...I'm also not up on what "koryu aikijutsu" has to do with the previously mentioned arts or teachers. If anyone has any insights into koryu aikijutsu, I for one would be interested in hearing more about it. Maybe it made sense 12 years ago...?

I think the original website referenced at the beginning of the thread has gone down in the last 12 years, it may have said something about koryu aikijutsu, I can't remember.

It would be interesting to get an English translation off the whole densho.

Long story short, I re-posted on this thread due to the fact that I was a little harsh and critical in my younger days in response to the matter - but have since mellowed somewhat :)

Regards,

Grant South
15th July 2012, 08:55
Hello,

I am happy to have the opportunity to say a few things.

My English translation from Yokota-sensei is;

"Master Certificate & Permission to Teach".

I believe this to be written as [ Inka yurushi sooroo koto].

Migo no joo denju tsukamari sooroo ni te
Inka yurushi sooroo koto.

'Having mastered all the techniques listed to the right,......
has been awarded the 'Inka' licence to teach'.

Yokota-Soke created Hyosui Ryu.

Koryu Aikijutsu in this instance means, Ueshiba-Juku Aiki. Those techniques which were practiced before the formation of Aikido and which are clearly Jujutsu in origin and are no longer in common practice within standard Aikido Oyo-waza, although elements have been maintained.

I have myself established the Kufudokan Dojo [Empty/Sky, Be free/Wind......] as a student of Budo and meditation [zen]. Gassho!

Paul Steadman
15th July 2012, 11:35
Hello Grant,

Welcome aboard "The Good Ship E-Budo." :)

You are correct mate, I remember Yokota-shihan saying as much - the term is "Inka Yurushi," and not "Menkyo Kaiden," I think everyone kind of defaults to the term menkyo kaiden in association with such documents.

The use of the term koryu aikijitsu used as a descriptor for proto aikido (i.e. pre-WWII Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu) may have its detractors, but to cite a precedent - Patrick McCarthy-sensei uses the term Koryu Uchinadi to refer to his teaching methods and practises of old-school Okinawan karate-jutsu in a classical/koryu manner. He is not stating that Koryu Uchinadi is a koryu system however.

Cheers,

Nathan Scott
16th July 2012, 21:29
Hello,


I am happy to have the opportunity to say a few things.

Welcome.


My English translation from Yokota-sensei is;

"Master Certificate & Permission to Teach".

I believe this to be written as [ Inka yurushi sooroo koto].

As far as what is written, the right side of the photo (last section of the scroll) basically says that you have been taught the techniques listed to the right, and as such, are "permitted". In this case "permit" (inka) is better translated as "award", meaning because you have proven an appropriate level of skill performing the catalog of techniques listed to the right, he can now permit you to receive (be awarded) a transmission document (densho) that certifies you as being initiated to the mokuroku level of the art. It doesn't *say* anything about "master certificate" or "permission to teach", technically.

That being said, those things may be implied, depending on how the art is structured. For example, if the Mokuroku level is the highest level of the art, then you could call it the *equivalent* of Menkyo Kaiden (certification of full transmission) for your art. The Menkyo Kaiden does not *automatically* mean that the person awarding it is also giving permission to teach the art. In some arts it does, but in others it is an acknowledgement of graduating the art. There would surely be those interested in learning from the recipient of a Menkyo Kaiden, but that does not necessarily mean that the headmaster of the "mainline" would endorse or permit it.

Also, if there is no specific teaching license in your art, and the Soke uses Mokuroku to award full transmission and permission to teach, then that would also be legitimate - even though the densho doesn't say it specifically. Only those within the art (the headmaster specifically) would be able to answer that question. If true, then it might be something that would be good for him to write down in a letter to you or something to avoid confusion in the future.

As far as terminology goes, "Menkyo" (certification) is used in some koryu as a level of transmission / initiation. In others, it is uses in a generic sense to indicate that a scroll or other type of densho has been awarded. In other words, if used generically, someone who was awarded the Mokuroku might be considered to be someone who holds a "menkyo" in the art. This is convenient for the purpose of telling outsiders that you have been awarded some type of transmission document without getting into the specifics of the names and what level they are in the art. So in a generic usage sense, it is not incorrect to use the term menkyo this way. However, in most arts, "Menkyo" is not just short for "Menkyo Kaiden". This can be confusing for those who don't understand the literal translation and usages, and might be the reason some assume it must be referring to Menkyo Kaiden.

I think of the generic usage of "menkyo" (certification of initiation) as being sort of the koryu version of the gendai budo kyu/dan "menjo" (certificates), if that helps.

Hopefully all this is not too confusing!


Koryu Aikijutsu in this instance means, Ueshiba-Juku Aiki. Those techniques which were practiced before the formation of Aikido and which are clearly Jujutsu in origin and are no longer in common practice within standard Aikido Oyo-waza, although elements have been maintained.

O.K. Thanks for explaining.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
16th July 2012, 21:48
BTW, two more quick things:

"Inka yurushi" just means "permit" or "award". Both words basically mean the same thing. But again, it could be the Soke is using these terms verbally to explain that it is o.k. to teach. He would have to be consulted to know for sure.

Also, as a point of interest, Yokota Sensei appear to use the name "Yokota Hyosuisai" in formal writings such as on the pictured densho. The first two characters of "Hyosuisai" are the same as the art name. The last character "-sai" (religious purification) is an old school character that many often used for a new "art name", in particular, once one has taken Buddhist vows.

FYI,

Grant South
17th July 2012, 01:59
Hello Nathan,

Thank you for your translation.

I can only convey what Yokota-sensei's message and intention was to me.

Yokota-sensei's English translation is;

"Master certificate & Permission to Teach"

His words to me were that this was an Inka License.

1. I am aware that Inka is written in two ways and are to a degree interchangeable.

2. I am also aware that licenses were often written in different ways and often with different kanji, for unique historical, cultural and religious reason's.

Although this is a Gendai Budo link -Shorinji Kempo- it may shed further light.

http://ameblo.jp/shorinjikempo-abiko/entry-10591882461.html

The point you make about "sai" as an indicator of traditionally taking Buddhist vows is meaningful. For example one of the techniques I received in my collection and License has the name, "Butsudan gaeshi", again this reflects a shared Buddhist heritage.

Having said all this, I do not teach Hyosui Ryu Koppo directly, I teach Kufudokan Aiki, although I include it's teachings and principles among others I have received and treasure.

As you know, Budo at it's heart is a method to approach and achieve our inner-work. Budo is the 'Way of Non-Aggression'. Budo is the method we use on the battlefield of our own heart to defeat Mara [Maara] within. All the various forms of Budo have been offered from the skillful means of the wisdom and compassion of great practitioner's. Budo is not a new principle, it's heritage is found in Katsujin-no-tachi.

Thank you again!