View Full Version : Takeda in Okinawa

23rd January 2003, 17:50
Does anyone have details of the Takeda Sokaku trip to Okinawa. I am looking for an Okinawan perspective on this. Can anyone based in Okinawa provide info?

27th January 2003, 02:14
Did he go there,by Gosh?When? Where?To whom?To teach or to learn? Wouldn't that answer a lot of questions? Ask this too, in the DRAJJ Forum?

Patrick McCarthy
27th January 2003, 23:46
Hmmm, that's pretty interesting. I had not heard this before, although I had heard of Ueshiba visiting the island.

My Okinawan teacher is quite a historian, and about 85 years old, too. I'll contact him about this and get back to you.

2nd February 2003, 00:37
Thank you, Patrick, that would be very interesting, on the Daito Ryu Forum, Nathan Scott has said, Sokaku Takeda, apparently did visit Okinawa earlier in his career.I hadn't known about that, nor Ueshiba's visit either.

Opens up whole new areas of investigation, I should think.I did know there is at least about three places on Okinawa-ken today, where Aikido is taught, one in connection with Ti, and one maybe in connection with a karate dojo, and one straight Aikido dojo run by I believe an Eight dan who may have trained under Ueshiba Sensei.

Anyway, would appreciate any information that your teacher would have about any of this.


Patrick McCarthy
2nd February 2003, 03:01
Hi folks,

Just got off the telephone with Kinjo sensei in Japan and, according to him, Takeda Sokaku never visited Okinawa. Kinjo Sensei told me that he lived on the island until 1939 and would have known if a famous bujin like Takeda or Ueshiba had visited. Of course, there was Kano Jigoros's historic visit in 1927, followed by twice All Japan Judo champ, Sudo Kinsaka, but no one of Takeda's reputation.

I spoke to him a little more about classical Japanese jujutsu influence in Okinawa and he mentioned Uehara Seikichi (Motobu Goten-di) having a shihan-level menkyo in Hakko Ryu. This, apparently, helped influence the development of his style.

2nd February 2003, 05:05
That would perhaps explain the Jujutsu nomenclature of the twenty-seven first techniques of Motobu Ryu taught by the style of Shorin ryu, Seidokan I believe, that is headed by Shian Toma, Seikichi Uehara's heir apparent to Motobu Ryu.

As Hakko Ryu was i believe an influence too, in creation of Danzan Ryu, this also explains identical names, although perhaps different techniques, used in some of the mokuroku of that style as well.

The only thing is, that there may be records stating facts to the effect that Takeda did briefly visit Okinawa, according to Mr. Scott who had read them somewhere.Perhaps Stanley Pranin could clarify the matter from the Aiki perspective.

Simce however, I wasn't there myself to verify either view,I will pass on your teacher's statement to the DRAJJ Forum, as being that of someone who may be in a position to know.For myself, until this question was asked here, I had never heard that either Takeda or Ueshiba had ever visited Okinawa, but then, the question never really came up, as the connection between Okinawan martial arts and classical Jiujitsu, was thought to have been either old, or in some cases like Kushin Ryu, and Eizan Ryu, quite open and recent.

It has been a matter of interest to me, however, to inquire into the origin of various Okinawa grappling techniques taught with various styles of karate, as original techniques behind the formulation of kata as both you and I believe, and also those taught, like Okinawan Sumo or tegumi, as separate or parallel disciplines.

Some grappling techniques, specifically those of locking and controlling, appear to be based on sword and other weapon movement.

Others are undoubtedly Chinese in origin as witness the Bubishi.:D

Probably we will never know the whole thing, but its interesting to try to understand as much as possible about it.There do definitely seem to be some Japanese grappling waza in some of the Okinawan kata.

Regards and thanks,

Patrick McCarthy
3rd February 2003, 21:15
Just received the following from my American colleague in Frankfort (KY), Jim Davenport.

"A few years ago I trained with Kondo Katsuyuki at which time I interviewed him. One of the questions I ask him was if, in fact, Takeda Sokaku had ever visited Okinawa and possibly taught and or engaged with any karate men. Kondo Sensei, who actually trained under Takeda Takimune, the son of Takeda said, that to the best of his knowledge Takeda Sokaku never visited Okinawa and that Takimune never mentioned any such visit."

6th February 2003, 02:24
Well, that would certainly seem to put paid to this one, all right.I pretty well accepted what Kinjo Sensei had said, too, as the Okinawans would certainly have remembered such a momentous visit as the one suposed to have, but apparently, never, happening.

Interestingly, I havbe just been given some infomation suggesting that the beginning syllabus of Motobu Ryu Toide, as taught by Seidokan Shorin ryu, and originating from Ti, is the same as the beginning series taught by the monks these days at the Shaolin Temple.

That certainly puts a different face on things.I wonder if Hakko Ryu has Shaolin connections.:-)Of course, all Jiujitsu is said to have originated from China, via Chen Yuan Bin and others.

6th February 2003, 02:45
Originally posted by kusanku
That would perhaps explain the Jujutsu nomenclature of the twenty-seven first techniques of Motobu Ryu taught by the style of Shorin ryu, Seidokan I believe, that is headed by Shian Toma, Seikichi Uehara's heir apparent to Motobu Ryu.


John make some room in your inbox you need to know something.

Nathan Scott
6th February 2003, 03:34
Hi guys,

As I mentioned, the quotes I posted on the thread in the AJJ forum about Sokaku going to Okinawa were from his son Tokimune. The first quote was actually from Stan Pranin, but I believe he was basing his comment off of what he had been told by Tokimune, based on the context of the article.

That is the reason I pointed this out on the AJJ forum. I've never heard anyone else state that Sokaku went to Okinawa - not that anyone else would likely know about it. It is possible, and in fact likely, that if he had gone to Okinawa that he would have collected a few names in his Eimeiroku. I don't have a full listing of these names, so can't comment as to whether there might be Okinawan personalities in his books. I believe some of his eimeiroku volumes are missing these days as well.

What is interesting is that Kondo Sensei made such a comment. The information about Sokaku in Okinawa appears to have been publisized in Tokimune's Daitokan newsletter, which I would imagine Kondo S. would be aware of being his student. However, it could be that Kondo S. simply does not believe that this story it true. Hard to say.

I know that Ueshiba Sensei got as far south as somewhere in Kyushu at one point, but don't recall any reading any claims that he went to Okinawa.

Good luck,

7th February 2003, 01:46
Thanks Mr. Scott for coming on this thread, maybe now we can cross reference and correlate what all we have.

This subject is definitely, IMO anyway, worht looking into, and we have maybe gotr more info on it now than has been in any one or at least two places heretofore.

Ed. I think I got what you wanted me to know, however, in case not, I will try to clear my inbox some more.


8th February 2003, 01:10
Okay. The Hakko Ryu Jiujitsu nomenclature for the first saeries of toide waza taught in Seidokan Shorinryu was actually supplied by a high ranking American Sensei with a Jiujitsu background.

That is pretty much from the horse's mouth there.

Thus, the connection between Motobu Ryu Ti and Hakko Ryu may or may not be there.

As for Takeda and Okinawa, nothing more yet as far as I know.

Going to DRAJJ Forum to post this there as well.


10th February 2003, 07:09
Follow up{
The information posted above, sounded mysterious because I did not then have permission from the individual to use his name, but he has permitted this information to be posted now to clear up the connection between Hakko Ryu and Toide.The man who put in place the Hakko Ryu teminology in Seidokan, was Roy Hobbs Sensei, of Seidokan and Hakko Ryu.He has said its okay to pst this to clarify that connection.