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Guts
25th July 2002, 00:02
Does anyone have any info on this school and it's teachers?

http://www.goshinkai.com/Pages/Main.htm

http://goshinkai.com/Pages/Beckham.htm

Walter Kopitov
25th July 2002, 01:30
They do an off shoot of Nihon Goshin Aikido. Good self defense. I met Beckham once and found him to be a sincere martial artist as well as skilled.

Brently Keen
25th July 2002, 04:07
I've not met these folks so I can't comment on either their skill or their personalities. However...

If the school is derived from Nihon Goshin Aikido it doesn't have anything to do with Daito-ryu, rather it's an offshoot of an offshoot of aikido. I seriously doubt that any of these instructors have studied any one of the authentic branches of Daito-ryu for any extended length of time, much less long enough to be able to use the name Daito-ryu in their new composite art. Unless the founder has a legit kyoju dairi (and I really doubt that), then I don't think they should be using the name Daito-ryu at all. They should call it goshin-ryu or something.

I also think it is very presumptuous to say, as they do on their website, that they're teaching techniques from all the authentic branches of Daito-ryu. Personally, I wouldn't find such misrepresentation to be all that sincere. None of the babble on Beckham's page sounds like anything from Daito-ryu, much less it's martial history. Some of it definitely sounded Hollywood though.

BK

Chris Li
25th July 2002, 05:59
Originally posted by Brently Keen
If the school is derived from Nihon Goshin Aikido it doesn't have anything to do with Daito-ryu, rather it's an offshoot of an offshoot of aikido. I seriously doubt that any of these instructors have studied any one of the authentic branches of Daito-ryu for any extended length of time, much less long enough to be able to use the name Daito-ryu in their new composite art. Unless the founder has a legit kyoju dairi (and I really doubt that), then I don't think they should be using the name Daito-ryu at all. They should call it goshin-ryu or something.

As I understand these things, the founder (Shodo Morita) trained in Daito-ryu with Yoshida Kitaro (so they say - I assume they mean "Yoshida Kotaro"). How long, or what menkyo he received (if any) I have no idea. Although they use the name "Aikido" IIRC there's no actual connection to M. Ueshiba - but that's just off the top of my head.

Best,

Chris

Walter Kopitov
25th July 2002, 10:39
Since the early 1960s the oral history of NGA has been that Shodo Morita was awarded a certificate from Yoshida Kotaro in Daito Ryu. No one has been able to disprove that, or prove it. Isoyama sensei who had an Aikido dojo nearby has said that he met Shodo Morita once or twice and that he was known as an Aikijujutsu practitioner. Again no real proof but atleast he is not a figment of the imagination.

I am trying to find more about Morita, does anyone know martial artists that trained in Chitose Japan between 1950 to 1970?

O'Neill
23rd January 2003, 19:23
Has anyone heard of this group? Jose Garrido is the sensei. I think that they came from Nihon Goshin Aikido and then started studying Daito ryu.

Ron Tisdale
23rd January 2003, 19:55
Garrido Sensei was at the Kondo clinic in Baltimore. I've seen him there before, but had a chance to really train with him and some of his students this time, as well as to speak with him at length. Very enjoyable in both cases. I'd train with him if I was in NY.

Ron Tisdale

O'Neill
23rd January 2003, 19:57
I am hoping to obtain his email address.

Mark Jakabcsin
23rd January 2003, 20:12
Erin,
I believe you can find his e-mail address on the following web -site. Look under the contact information. You can also learn a little bit more about this group.

http://www.goshinkai.com/


mark

Nathan Scott
25th January 2003, 00:12
This is kind of a strange webpage. It would appear that Mr. Garrido is claiming to have received a black belt (shodan?) and a "Gokui kaiden shihanship" (?) from DR Kodokai. What is that, and what right does he have to use the Takeda bishi mon and Daito ryu name? He does not list the Kodokai as one of the organizations that "recognize his rank".

Is he really in his early to mid 40's? Maybe it is an old photo of him, but he claims to have begun training in aiki in 1964.

It appears that they are located in South Carolina, judging from their contact address.

I don't know what his skills or personality are like, but I'd be curious to know more about his previous training.

Mark Jakabcsin
25th January 2003, 02:17
"It appears that they are located in South Carolina, judging from their contact address."

Nathan,
I believe Mr. Garrido is located in NY and the school in SC is associated with him in some manner. I am not positive about that, I tried to find more information but some of the site addresses I had were old and no longer contain web-sites. I posted the above address since it had some information about Mr. Garrido and the Goshinkai, including email address for those seeking more information. One of the gentleman listed as an instructor on the web-site has posted on this forum in the past. Perhaps he will post or e-mail you privately. Take care.

mark

Roger Lake
26th January 2003, 18:39
Forget about the South Carolina website, they write way too much stuff without double checking with Garrido as to its veracity (according to conversations I've had with him). Mr. Garrido is a recognized Kodokai dan according to Stan Pranin in the Aikido encyclopedia. He is 46 years old. I believe he has his own website up and running but I don't recall the address. I know his e-mail though:
jgarr60321@aol.com

I'm sure he'd be glad to answer any questions.

Regards,

Roger Lake

Nathan Scott
19th August 2003, 02:17
I just came across the Encyclopedia of Aikido reference to Mr. Garrido on the AJ forum here:

http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000117



GARRIDO, JOS…
(b. 1955). Kyoju Dairi, Nihon Goshin Aikido; 1st dan Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu-Kodokai, 1982 [rank authenticated]. First taught by Richard Bowe in New Jersey, USA in 1965. Holder of rankings from various jujutsu organizations. Recipient of three Presidential Sports Awards, a Certificate of Honor from Federation of Practicing Jujutsuans, and member of the Order of Kentucky Colonels. Chief instructor of Aikijutsu for the Goshinkai Association which teaches modern applications of DAITO-RYU and aikido techniques for self-defense. North Bergen School of Self-Defense, 9276 Kennedy Blvd. , North Bergen, NJ 07047 USA (201)869-4551.

1982 would have been one of the infamous Yonezawa Katsumi Kodokai ranks. I'm not sure I'm following this background completely - if I understand correctly, Mr. Garrido is using the Takeda mon and Daito ryu name based on his shodan?

At this point, I think I'll drop Mr. Garrido a note and invite him to join us here. It would be great to learn more about his background and teachings.

Regards,

GoshinkaiBushi
20th August 2003, 20:09
I wanted to add a bit of information that might help clear some issues up.

First, the Greenville Goshinkai site (www.goshinkai.com) is a branch Dojo that is a Nihon Goshin Aikido (NGA) Dojo. If you look at the site, there have been major revisions. The curriculum is NGA PLUS some additional requirements beyond NGA.

Second, Sensei Garrido's rank in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai is not from Yonezawa Sensei. His rank is from Shimpo Sensei.

Third, as far as his Gokui Kaiden, it was given to him by the Federation of Practicing Jujutsuans (Jujutsu).

Fourth, as for his association's patch, all I can say is that Sensei Garrido and his Deshi have worn that patch while training with Kondo Sensei in Baltimore and Las Vegas. It has never been an issue for Kondo Sensei, so why should it be for anyone else?

I will try to answer any questions that I can. I know that Sensei Garrido can be reached at the email addressed in a previous post, or, @ Daitoryu2000@aol.com

See you on the mats.

Justin Campbell
withki@aol.com

Nathan Scott
20th August 2003, 22:13
Hello Mr. Campbell,

I received a reply from Mr. Garrido with basically the same information. Thanks for posting it here.

Perhaps some of these questions should be directed to Mr. Joe Beckham who runs the goshinkai.com site. The site is full of Daito ryu references and photos of Kondo and Sokaku, though they have removed their "Daito ryu" link for the time being. Apparently they only teach the Nihon Goshin Aikido curriculum, so I don't know why there is so much emphasis on Daito ryu on their page.


Third, as far as his Gokui Kaiden, it was given to him by the Federation of Practicing Jujutsuans (Jujutsu).

Thanks for clarifying that. Mr. DePasquale appears in many publications and seminars, and George Parulski (All Japan Seibukan Martial Arts) is also well known. The biography for Mr. Garrido posted on Mr. Beckham's page implies that this "Gokui Kaiden" was from the Kodokai. Maybe they should clarify that point to avoid further confusion:

http://www.goshinkai.com/Pages/Garrido.htm

The bio found on Mr. Garrido's own page is definitely more clear:

http://www.daitoryugoshinkai.com/aboutus.html


Second, Sensei Garrido's rank in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai is not from Yonezawa Sensei. His rank is from Shimpo Sensei.

Fourth, as for his association's patch, all I can say is that Sensei Garrido and his Deshi have worn that patch while training with Kondo Sensei in Baltimore and Las Vegas. It has never been an issue for Kondo Sensei, so why should it be for anyone else?

Just because Kondo Sensei did not complain to you directly about the use of the name or mon does not necessarily mean that he approves of their use. However, I'd be happy to find out for you what Kondo Sensei's thoughts are on this if you like. The reason the rest of us would like to know is because there is little mention in the credentials offered publicly about Mr. Garrido regarding his background in Daito ryu, but the art(s) he teaches appear to be a line of Daito ryu judging from the presentation on these pages.

BTW, is the black and gold patch seen in this photo also from the Goshinkai?

http://www.goshinkai.com/Gallery/InstructorGroup.jpg

The shodan rank awarded in Daito ryu Kodokai is the only credential Mr. Garrido claims to have in the art (in addition to a couple of open seminars with Kondo Sensei in mainline DR), but DR Kodokai is not listed as one of the many organizations that recognize his ranks on the goshinkai.com bio page.

http://www.daitoryugoshinkai.com , the home page of Mr. Garrido, is titled "Daito-ryu Goshinkai". Across the top of the index page are kanji reading "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu", with Mr. Garrido's web page address below it and his Shotokan karate/Takeda bishi mon hybrid crest to the left of it.

The "classical techniques" listed in the goshinkai.com pages includes karate kata and nunchaku techniques, which may be useful for Goshin Aikido, but has nothing to do with Daito ryu. However, on the techniques (http://www.daitoryugoshinkai.com/autech.html) page on Mr. Garrido's site, mainline techniques like kirikaeshi and kotezume are shown. Are these new additions from the Kondo seminars?

On Mr. Garrido's index page, he states: "The Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu of the Goshinkai is supplemented with techniques from some of the arts listed above." So is the Goshinkai Daito ryu Aikijujutsu with various other methods added to it?

Further insight to the issues raised above would be greatly apprecitated.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
29th September 2003, 22:41
Mr. Garrido last replied to me on August 18th. Just after that reply, I emailed him back requesting that he answer two more questions for us:

1) What is Shimpo Sensei's first name?

2) How long did you study under Shimpo Sensei?

These should be no-brainer questions for him to answer.

On this email, I copied one of his students who has been offering assistance in answering our questions. Mr. Garrido has not answered either of these questions, and his student indicated that Mr. Garrido felt that he had answered enough questions.

The problem is that these two questions are very important questions, since Mr. Garrido's entire legitimacy to using the Daito ryu name is based on his shodan in Daito ryu. I understand that Shimpo Sensei has been to America several times for short trips in past years, and during the time that Yonezawa Sensei was in charge, it is possible that he might have awarded certificates to students during his visits. If this is the case here, then Mr. Garrido's claim is quite misleading, since the rank would in effect still be a "Yonezawa" rank (presented by a visiting senior instructor).

But in any event, even someone holding a legitimate shodan in an orthodox branch of Daito ryu would not have earned the right or permission to use the Daito ryu name and mon independently.

Mr. Garrido is even listing open seminar experience with Kondo Sensei as part of his Daito ryu credentials and legitimacy (which is very different from DR Kodokai anyway). Can a shodan level student (even assuming it was earned) really break off and teach/issue ranks under a classical art?

What is the story here?

Nathan Scott
29th September 2003, 22:55
I should also mention the following information, offered by the aforementioned student of Mr. Garrido via PM:

- Mr. Garrido has apparently severed their relationship with Joe Beckham's group, outside of (I believe) the NGA stuff. They should no longer be any Daito ryu references on their page.

- As a point of clarification, Mr. Garrido apparently studied with Mr. DePasquale, Sr. - not Jr.

- The Black & Gold DR influenced patch is specific to Joe Beckham's dojo, not Mr. Garrido's.

HTH,

GoshinkaiBushi
1st October 2003, 21:51
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I should also mention the following information, offered by the aforementioned student of Mr. Garrido via PM:

- Mr. Garrido has apparently severed their relationship with Joe Beckham's group, outside of (I believe) the NGA stuff. They should no longer be any Daito ryu references on their page.

- As a point of clarification, Mr. Garrido apparently studied with Mr. DePasquale, Sr. - not Jr.

- The Black & Gold DR influenced patch is specific to Joe Beckham's dojo, not Mr. Garrido's.

HTH,

I would like to clarify the following:

Jose Garrido severed ALL ties with Joe Beckham's group, including the NGA training. Joe Beckham's NGA rank is Nidan, as awarded by the Nihon Goshin Aikido Association. He holds no ranking from Jose Garrido.

You are correct: He studied with Sensei DePasquale, Sr.

If you are referring to the black & gold shoulder patch, then yes, it is a patch associated with Joe Beckham's dojo only.

Justin Campbell

Nathan Scott
30th October 2003, 21:39
Since it would seem that Mr. Garrido cannot answer my questions, I'll go ahead and tip my hand.

In 1982, Yonezawa Katsumi was still leading instruction in Daito ryu in America. If you studied in America at that time, you were directly or indirectly under his instruction, and ranks were issued through him.


From: http://www.daitoryugoshinkai.com/aboutus.html

Mr. Garrido continued his training and was given a Black Belt in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai in 1982 (Shimpo)...

A document was forwarded to me from an ex-Kodokai member that records that Shimpo Sensei from the Kodokai in Japan joined Yonezawa in a trip to America in 1982. At that time, a seminar was conducted in New Jersey, and was hosted by Joseph Conti, who is also a NGA teacher living in the same area, and I believe under the same NGA teacher as Mr. Garrido. According to Mr. Kopitov's website (if I'm reading it correctly), Mr. Garrido and Mr. Conti are/were both students under Steven Weber (not Richard Bowe, though Bowe may have written a letter conferring kyoju dairi in NGA to Garrido).

http://nihongoshinaikido.com/history.htm

Anyway, Mr. Conti and Mr. Garrido were both members of the Kodokai at that time (ca. 1982). Don't know for how long, but since Mr. Garrido will not post this information, we can guess that it was probably for a relatively short time.

So in conclusion, it is possible that Shimpo Sensei presented a "black belt" (literally?) to Mr. Garrido during this NJ seminar in 1982, since Shimpo Sensei would have been the senior instructor present. But considering that Mr. Garrido can't even tell us the first name of Shimpo Sensei, and considering the fact that Shimpo Sensei's students are in Japan, it is safe to guess that the black belt issued to Mr. Garrido is in fact a "Yonezawa ranking". As such, to say "given a Black Belt in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai in 1982 (Shimpo)" is more than a little misleading.

I don't mean to sound as though I'm out to bash Mr. Garrido, but these do appear to be the facts, and it is unfortunate in my opinion that Mr. Garrido cannot place more faith in his own methods without feeling the need to misuse the Daito ryu name.

Regards,

Walt. V Kopitov
31st October 2003, 11:22
Sensei Garrido was a direct student of Shihan Bowe. Sorry that the chart is not clear on that.

Mr. Conti left NGA and joined Yonezawa's organization and was put in charge of it for a period of time. At a later date Goldberg Sensei took over. Hope that helps to clear things up a little.

Nathan Scott
31st October 2003, 17:53
Mr. Kopitov,

Thanks for the correction. I was hoping that you would post if I misunderstood your chart.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
24th June 2006, 05:18
I just came across an "aiki blog" on the Aikido Journal website with some interesting statements:


Kondo Sensei seminar
Posted by Ron DeKett on June 21st, 2006

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2096

"As a student of Tatsuo Shimpo, he earned a shodan in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai."

"The three-day seminar will be Oct. 6-8 at the Spartan School of Self-Defense in Cliffside Park. Shihan Jose delCristo Garrido will host Kondo Senseiís visit at the school, which is the most spacious dojo Iíve ever visited."

I see Garrido is apparently still claiming to be a "student" of Shimpo Sensei. Congratulations BTW on finding out his first name. That must have been tough.

But I was suprised to read that Garrido is already a Shihan in Kondo Sensei's Daito-ryu!

It looks like there are still some mysterious misunderstandings being generated here from the Garrido's dojo. I for one would like to see either a retraction posted about the above or proof that it is true.

Regards,

Kendoguy9
24th June 2006, 22:19
Dear Nathan et al,

I'm sure Mr. Garrido or a student will be able to clarify his position better then I can, but I'll make a quick post to try to clear some things up before anyone gets confused. As far as I know Mr. Garrido holds no rank or title from Kondo sensei (please correct me if I'm wrong). He is a study group head under Kondo sensei, much like Mr. John Goss and Mr. Rick Fine. These are administrative as well as technical positions until a formal dojo can be created. As of now there are no formal shibucho in the USA other then Mr. Mark Sumi. I am assuming Mr. Garrido holds the title of shihan and I think 8th or 9th dan from another source, maybe aikido? I have met Mr. Garrido many times at seminars and he seems like a very nice guy, and his students are very devoted to him. I hope someone else can give more info. then I can.

Jose Garrido
25th June 2006, 00:37
Gentlemen,
Let me clarify this for the last time. I am not claiming Shihanship in DTR. I am currently functioning as a study group leader under Kondo sensei. I suggest that any further speculation about my relationship with Kondo sensei be asked of Kondo sensei directly.

My shihan rank is in Jujutsu from the Federation of Practicing Jujutsuans an organization that was headed by Michael DePasquale Senior.

Now, let's not re-hash this nonsense again, and let's just train. If anyone wants to discuss things further with me or discuss my relationship in DTR please attend the October seminar all persons will be there in person to answer all questions.

Yours in Budo,
Jose garrido

jonesin
29th June 2006, 19:01
Also, Mr. Scott, for future reference, his name is Shimbo Sensei, not ShimPo.

Samurai Jack
29th June 2006, 20:02
I hope Mr. Jose Garrido the best of luck with his study group under Kondo Sensei. I am glad Mr. Garrido has found his place in Kondo Sensei's Daito ryu. Congrats.

I have followed Mr. Garrido career since his interest in Daito Ryu. I am glad Mr. Garrido association with Daito Ryu now has found fertile ground where he can develop roots. And all his past ventures and dealings with other Daito Ryu groups will now be unimportant, falling to the wayside, in the light of him heading a prestigious Daito Ryu study group.


jonesin, hear of that old saying, of don't assume because it can make an ...Well you know the rest. Treading on assumptions is dangerous. Just a friendly word of caution.

jonesin
30th June 2006, 11:58
Mr. Robison, please elaborate where you feel I may be assuming something. Because I tend to try not to make an a_s out of myself (doesn't always work though). Please, enlighten me.

Kendoguy9
30th June 2006, 14:00
Dear Mr. Jones,

It might be your authoritarian post towards Nathan, about the spelling of Mr. Shimpo/Shimbo's name? You state it so matter of factly like everyone should know the Romanization of his name, when on 4/7/06 you called him "Shimpo" in a post, too.

"You would not do yourself an injustice to visit Mr. Joe Conti in Dunellen, NJ. He studied Daito-Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, Kodokai for 9 years with Katsumi Yonezawa and Shimpo Sensei. (Hosting them in his home in NJ, (Yonezawa regularly, Shimpo sporadically)). When the scrolls... "


Just a thought. Anyway let's follow Mr. Garrido's advice and train!

Peace,

jonesin
30th June 2006, 17:07
Mr. Covington, you are correct that I typed the name incorrectly on that previous thread. I was typing quickly at the time and later realized my mistake. Not posting much on these sites, I did not know how to edit the post at the time and had fogotten about it.

When I read the name again in this post, I wanted to be sure that I had it correct also.

Also, I didn't feel I was being matter of fact (or authoritative by any means, since I have little if any knowledge of the Japanese language), but just being polite and concise, with the knowledge that I do have. From reading the extensive work and research that Mr. Scott has done, I consider him a knowledge sponge, and figured he would like to be accurate with what he has created as a running history of the arts. I would always ask for anyone to correct me if I am not doing something as accurately as humanly possible...otherwise why study anything or try to improve?

Lastly, Mr. Scott, if the post seemed short, it was just to get the information across to you. Nothing more, nothing less.

As far as training, I agree. That's why you don't see me posting much here...

George Kohler
30th June 2006, 18:00
Also, Mr. Scott, for future reference, his name is Shimbo Sensei, not ShimPo.

Jonesin,

Please read our rules about signing with your FULL name. Thank you.

Samurai Jack
30th June 2006, 18:02
Mr. Robison, please elaborate where you feel I may be assuming something. Because I tend to try not to make an a_s out of myself (doesn't always work though). Please, enlighten me.

Chris hit the nail on the head, basically. That is all, nothing more. I was a friendly word of caution.

Per my understanding, what Chris said about Conti is correct that Conti had trained under K. Yonezawa and T. Shimpo when they visited N.J. Back in the mid 70's I think. A person you might also contact is Tim Tung who is with Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Bokuyokan. I was told by a sourse he also learned from T. Shimpo in the 70's. Tim Tung may have trained with T. Shimpo in Japan as well, and T. Tung may have more accurate information of T. Shimpo. I can't verify that as fact, but I think it is a good bet. Also Roy Goldberg ( Kodo kai ), and Migel Ibarra (Aikijujutsu & Yamabushi ) are similar sources as they know Conti and all where training Daito ryu at the same time. All three men received instruction from T. Shimpo back in the 70's. I found this out with a little Web Surfing, and poking around via the net. :)


Good luck

jonesin
30th June 2006, 20:12
Pardon me Kohlersan, o great ruler of the forum. Please aceept my humble apologies...my knuckles are still stinging from the ruler ;-)

jonesin
30th June 2006, 20:24
Thanks Jack for the clarification. I just didnt' understand how I had "assumed" something.

It is my understanding that Shimbo Sensei is still part of the Kodokai headed by Inoue Sensei, not the Bokuyokan. And if you take a look at the Bokuyokan page, it states that

Yonezawa, Shihan is succeeded in Bokuyokan by his son Hiromitsu Yonezawa, Soke.

Mr. Tung or Mr. Franco from their dojo should be able to clarify that more, but I do not believe that their group is associated directly with the Kodokai at this time.

As far as the representatives go, I have been informed that the North American director is Ken Kiyama, with Roy Goldberg as the Eastern Regional director. Mr. Ibarra doesn't have an association with the Kodokai.

Enjoy.

Nathan Scott
2nd July 2006, 18:55
One of the points I was trying to make is that Shimpo Sensei (or Shimbo) lives in Japan, and at the time the aforementioned people were studying DR here in America, Yonezawa was the direct instructor. Just because a senior teacher comes from Japan and gives seminars (and happens to not have the reputation that Yonezawa now has) does not mean that you are/were his student. Neither does receiving a rank certificate or black belt from him when it was in fact recommended (or written) by Yonezawa. When I asked before about Shimpo/Shimbo Sensei's first name, nobody knew it. It's great they've figured it out, but knowing the name itself is not significant - it was not knowing the first name of someone claimed as a direct instructor.

As far as this thread goes, and the "shut up and train" idea, I'd just point out that the only reason this thread was started, and came back up again recently, is because of statements made by either Mr. Garrido (on his webpage) or his students. If people like Mr. Garrido would prefer that those on the internet don't talk about them, then they need to be thoughtful of what they put up publicly as well as what they tell their students, who may in turn choose to post them on the internet. That's how it works. I (for one at least) don't just pick on people just because it's fun. All the threads I can remember starting here about a given instructor on this forum were either started by someone asking who they were, or, were posted in response to things the instructors themselves had published on the net or in other media.

I'm a big fan of training though.

Samurai Jack
5th July 2006, 17:17
...also contact is Tim Tung who is with Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Bokuyokan. I was told by a sourse he also learned from T. Shimpo in the 70's. Tim Tung may have trained with T. Shimpo in Japan as well, and T. Tung may have more accurate information of T. Shimpo. I can't verify that as fact, but I think it is a good bet. Also Roy Goldberg ( Kodo kai ), and Migel Ibarra (Aikijujutsu & Yamabushi ) are similar sources as they know Conti and all where training Daito ryu at the same time. All three men received instruction from T. Shimpo back in the 70's. I found this out with a little Web Surfing, and poking around via the net. :)


Good luck

After a friend pointed something out about this post, I mulled it over and decided it was a good idea to point something out.

For some, reading my post, they may have been abit mislead. Why? Well I didn't mention that T. Shimpo came to the US from Japan for given seminars about 2 or 3 times for a few days each or so, back in the 70's. It may be read as if he was a resident teacher here in the US. It is my understanding he wasn't that is true also for Yonezawa. Yonezawa made more trips to the US then T. Shimpo, and Yonezawa stayed longer up to a week or so at a time. When here Yonezawa traveled alot giving seminars etc. Yonezawa stopped coming to the US in the mid 80's under Kodo kai. And he then resumed in the 90's under his own school. I dont' think Yonezawa was here in the US more then 10 or so times for no more then a week or so between the 70's and 80's. He was doing a lot of traveling at the time as well.

I agree with Nathan that you have to keep up on your house cleaning and keep the records inorder. There is a lot of people out there who can be resourses for the facts and accuracy about the person Nathan is concerned about. That is why I made mentioned of the likes of Conti, Goldberg, Tung, Ibarra, and others who where at those seminars back then.

Basically, I am just providing resourses. :)

Mateo
7th July 2006, 04:16
Just because a senior teacher comes from Japan and gives seminars (and happens to not have the reputation that Yonezawa now has) does not mean that you are/were his student.

But isn't that the relationship of 95% of Daito-ryu practitioners in North America to their teachers, including most of Kondo-sensei's students here? How many people have lived and trained in Daito-ryu in Japan for any length of time? Precious few. At that time, probably none.

If you don't identify the fellow who comes to NA once or twice a year and to whom you visit from time to time in Japan to give you the stuff to work on who would you identify as being your Daito-ryu teacher then? Who would the senior student of study group connected to the Shinbukan identify as his teacher other than Kondo-sensei? There is not much other choice. I don't see much of a difference here.

I think that if they have permission to identify someone as one of their teachers they may do so.

Yonezawa was a legitmate representative of the Kodokai at that time and so I imagine was Shinpo. I would guess that with Yonezawa forming his own organization that the politically correct thing to do would be to identify a teacher that was still within the organization that you have closest affiliations with. This is not how I would do things but I don't think things are necessarily amiss here.

I've heard rumour that Yonezawa gave out rank too liberally while in the States yet most of the ranks that he gave out to the people in question were 2nd dans to people very experienced in related arts like Hakkoryu and aikido. 1st and 2nd dan continue to be given out quite liberally in Japan by most organizations as these are not advanced grades.

Ibarra, Goldberg, etc. all seem like competant martial artists to me. At a time when organizations are seeking to expand the art it is probably true that most organizations give out the early grades liberally and become more conservative as the infastructure grows.

Ron Tisdale
7th July 2006, 13:28
Not only that, but the seminar method of training has been used in Daito ryu since it's inception. You train in a seminar, you go home, and work on the material yourself. Then get refinement and hopefully new material at the next seminar. Worked for Takeda and his students (thousands of them?). To what degree? Well, get on the mat and take the ukemi. Only way to know that facet.

Best,
Ron

Arman
7th July 2006, 20:10
Mathew,

Most organizations keep records of ryu members, and conferred rank should have the signature of the teacher. As a student of Kondo Sensei, I have signed his enrollment book, and all of my certificates have been personally signed and handed to me by Kondo Sensei.

I don't have any idea how Mr. Yonezawa or Mr. Shimbo or the Kodokai handled such things then or now, but I think if someone asked me who my teacher was, I would say Kondo Sensei. Any other senior member who taught me would be considered my sempai, but not my sensei, unless I had enrolled in their specific dojo.

Regards,
Arman Partamian

Nathan Scott
9th July 2006, 06:25
But isn't that the relationship of 95% of Daito-ryu practitioners in North America to their teachers, including most of Kondo-sensei's students here?

No, the majority of "Daito-ryu" practicitioners in North America are not actually studying orthodox Daito-ryu (search the web)! But seriously, of the ones who are studying legitimately, a number of them have in fact been studying under a Shihan who lives in North America. As far as Kondo Sensei's students here, they are just that. The study groups were started from scratch, with nobody holding significant prior experience with Kondo and no "North American Representative/Chief Instructor" assigned. As such, yes, they are all direct students of Kondo Sensei, because there is no other teacher. Other study groups in America may run by someone with adequate rank or experience in the art, though even in those cases, the fact that it is a "study group" (no qualifed instructor in the dojo) still technically means the members are all students of whoever the qualified teacher is that is overseeing the group.

As far as the issue of Shimbo Sensei or Yonezawa Sensei, the answer is easy. Yonezawa was the head of the International Division of the Kodokai at the time, and was working here in America. Shimbo Sensei was a senior instructor that came a few times to America to assist with seminars. Yonezawa was in charge of America and foreign affairs during that time, and was the one who recommended (and apparently wrote his own) ranks. As such, those students can not be "students" of Shimbo Sensei when they had a teacher already given the responsibility for the instruction in the area (in this case internationally). The only reason some are trying to get around using Yonezawa's name is because of the dirty laundry that has come out about him, in particular, his issuance of ranks that were not issued/authorized by the Kodokai Honbu. It is misleading at the very least to claim a more senior teacher over your own just because you attended a few seminars with them and simply prefer to use their name for political reasons.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
9th July 2006, 06:37
Not only that, but the seminar method of training has been used in Daito ryu since it's inception.

FWIW, although you're correct, I'd point out that the handful of students that seem to have gotten any level of inner teachings from Sokaku in fact studied with him on a regular basis outside of the seminars (ie: one on one at a residence or private dojo). Hmmmm....

Samurai Jack
9th July 2006, 20:50
Boy was that a can a worms opened wide open. I am glad Nathan settled it.

I can see where people whoís who study in the recent study groups and attend seminars feel. It is my understanding that other then the Kodo Kai group all other Daito ryu groups are new to the US. 12 or so years isn't much time, when you compare it to the Kodo Kai which began in the early 1970's. The Kodo Kai isn't a study group any more. They are an official school lead by a Shi-han who has over seen the American school for decades. BTW, you can check those facts on the web very easily. It is my understanding many of those first American students of the Kodo Kai trained for over 20 or more years. For example, take Roy Goldberg, he started in the mid 1980s and still is with the Kodo Kai. It is easy to get upset at what Nathan said, but you have to look at the facts and the big picture. Kondo's study group is still in its infancy. Takuma Kai is in its infancy. Before them, was the off-shoot Kodo kai group of Roppokai, also in its infancy. Kodo Kai is the only Daito Ryu group with an established school and Shi-han, and has been around since the early 1970's. And it survived something that would kill so many other schools. That would be Yonezawa, a leader demonstrating poor leadership and poor scruples that of which Nathan pointed out. But the American Kodo kai survived that and is now a reputable organization, from what I am told.

If Kondo's or the other new study groups survive as the Kodo Kai has and for as long. And those other groups are able to weather the commericalism of American martial arts, and other non-sense that dominates the American martial arts community, as the Kodo Kai has, then I would say go ahead, wave those fists in the air and yell foul. But, until then I think it is a bit premature to do so. Just the local 2 cents worth, FWIW.

Arman
10th July 2006, 15:25
Jack,

I'm sorry, I am a bit confused. Who is crying foul?

Thanks,
Arman Partamian

Howard Popkin
10th July 2006, 20:48
Gentlemen,

Is he calling me an infant ? :) Mr. Robison, do you study Kodo Kai or are you just a historian ? Just curious.

Actually sir, the Roppokai has been firmly established in the United States for almost 10 years. The New York Branch has been operating since February 1997. The Texas Branch is slightly newer, but Mr. Lopez studied in Japan with Okamoto Sensei for many years prior to opening his branch. The California, North Carolina, and Oregon Branches are also doing very well. We just try to keep to ourselves most of the time. While there are no Roppokai Shihan living in the United States, Okamoto Sensei is here quite frequently and keeps tabs on all of us, personally.

Sensei will be here in August , November, and most likely, March.

Enjoy your training.

Howard Popkin
NY Roppokai
Jun Dairi Kyoju

Samurai Jack
11th July 2006, 15:09
Jack,

I'm sorry, I am a bit confused. Who is crying foul?

Thanks,
Arman Partamian

It isn't who is, but who might in some cases.

Samurai Jack
11th July 2006, 16:01
Gentlemen,

Is he calling me an infant ? :) Mr. Robison, do you study Kodo Kai or are you just a historian ? Just curious.

Actually sir, the Roppokai has been firmly established in the United States for almost 10 years. The New York Branch has been operating since February 1997. The Texas Branch is slightly newer, but Mr. Lopez studied in Japan with Okamoto Sensei for many years prior to opening his branch. The California, North Carolina, and Oregon Branches are also doing very well. We just try to keep to ourselves most of the time. While there are no Roppokai Shihan living in the United States, Okamoto Sensei is here quite frequently and keeps tabs on all of us, personally.

Sensei will be here in August , November, and most likely, March.

Enjoy your training.

Howard Popkin
NY Roppokai
Jun Dairi Kyoju

I don't mean to sound rude at anytime by what I say. My point of view is more factual then anything else. It is due to my understanding what Okamoto is doing in general, keeping tabs, was true also for the Kodo kai some 30 years ago. but we are talking about time. Specifically, factually speaking, the amount of time some Daito ryu groups have been in the US vs. others. Looking at other Daito ryu groups here in the US than the Kodo kai, we can see the dynamics of how such groups. We can look at, for example, which you pointed out, how the Roppo kai examines its groups here. We can also look at Kondo's study groups as well. Overall, we see a slow progression of development. The Japanese take time. They carefully nurture and develop these new groups. As many know the Japanese use the analogy of gardening when developing something like these study groups. It is clear to me from your post this is what Okamoto is doing, and has done. The Japanese understand that Rome wasn't built in a day, and they subscribe to the Old English adage of haste makes waste.

What does this all mean? In my opinion, you have to look at the big picture in relation to the topic of this post and to the idea that going to a handful of seminars over the years is more of a scouting event (for lack of a more creative and precise term right now) for these organizations then going to a few classes to be certified in a profession. There is nothing wrong with either, but it is just a matter of perspective.

What the Japanese perceive and what an American individual perceives can and are very different in martial arts. This can be frustrating for both parties. You have two peoples coming together, from almost opposite perspectives. Gee, the misunderstanding than are immeasurable. Take for instance, the differences when it comes to expectations of the Japanese and the Americans. Americanís want it instantly. The Japanese take their sweet time, knowing that proper development requires time. The Japanese are far more patient, then Americans. In America you need to brag about who you are and what you got and have done. For example, a job interview. The Japanese find this unappealing, and the less you brag, presenting yourself as humble as possible the better the chance you have.

I am taking the current Kodo kai as the model for establishment of Daito ryu. They have a qualified resident Shi-han. They have been around for 30 plus years, and over come growing pains. In the early years of develop of this group it was in its infancy and developmental stages. Many people experience Kodo kai at this time, some more positive then others. We can't judge expertise or qualification of any group or those who experience them at that time. We have to look at them at the stage they are at both in development and establishement of the group, and thus the individual and not confuse development with expertise.

Ron Tisdale
11th July 2006, 16:26
Mr. Robison, do you study Kodo Kai or are you just a historian ? Just curious.

Best,
Ron

Samurai Jack
11th July 2006, 16:29
Too All,

I am sorry for clicking on the wrong button (submit instead of preview) and taking too long to edit. I will be more careful in the future. I hope this is explains things better. I edited the last paragraph, and added another thought.


Gentlemen,

Is he calling me an infant ? :) Mr. Robison, do you study Kodo Kai or are you just a historian ? Just curious.

Actually sir, the Roppokai has been firmly established in the United States for almost 10 years. The New York Branch has been operating since February 1997. The Texas Branch is slightly newer, but Mr. Lopez studied in Japan with Okamoto Sensei for many years prior to opening his branch. The California, North Carolina, and Oregon Branches are also doing very well. We just try to keep to ourselves most of the time. While there are no Roppokai Shihan living in the United States, Okamoto Sensei is here quite frequently and keeps tabs on all of us, personally.

Sensei will be here in August , November, and most likely, March.

Enjoy your training.

Howard Popkin
NY Roppokai
Jun Dairi Kyoju

To: Howard, and all those others following the thread,

I don't mean to sound rude at anytime by what I say. My point of view is more factual then anything else. It is due to my understanding what Okamoto is doing in general, keeping tabs, was true also for the Kodo kai some 30 years ago. But we are talking about time. Specifically, factually speaking, the amount of time some Daito ryu groups have been in the US vs. others. Looking at other Daito ryu groups here in the US than the Kodo kai, we can see the dynamics of how such groups. We can look at, for example, which you pointed out, how the Roppo kai examines its groups here. We can also look at Kondo's study groups as well. Overall, we see a slow progression of development. The Japanese take time. They carefully nurture and develop these new groups. As many know the Japanese use the analogy of gardening when developing something like these study groups. It is clear to me from your post this is what Okamoto is doing, and has done. The Japanese understand that Rome wasn't built in a day, and they subscribe to the Old English adage of haste makes waste.

What does this all mean? In my opinion, you have to look at the big picture in relation to the topic of this post and to the idea that going to a handful of seminars over the years is more of a scouting event (for lack of a more creative and precise term right now) for these organizations then going to a few classes to be certified in a profession. There is nothing wrong with either, but it is just a matter of perspective.

What the Japanese perceive and what an American individual perceives can and are very different in martial arts. This can be frustrating for both parties. You have two peoples coming together, from almost opposite perspectives. Gee, the misunderstanding than are immeasurable. Take for instance, the differences when it comes to expectations of the Japanese and the Americans. Americanís want it instantly. The Japanese take their sweet time, knowing that proper development requires time. The Japanese are far more patient, then Americans. In America you need to brag about whom you are and what you got and have done. For an example, take a job interview which reflects this accurately. The Japanese find this unappealing, and the less you brag, presenting yourself as humble as possible the better the chance you have.

I am taking the current Kodo kai as the model for establishment of Daito ryu. They have a qualified resident Shi-han. They have been around for 30 plus years, and over come growing pains. In the early years of develop of this group it was in its infancy and developmental stages. Many people experience Kodo kai at this time, some more positive then others. We can't judge expertise or qualification of any group or those whose individuals who experienced such groups at that time. Because at that stage of the game, both the group, and the individual who experience, say a seminar or two, has came to maturity. It would be a disservice to confuse such an experience with expertise. It would be more beneficial to see once the group matures to see who has continued. In that why you get a better idea or measurement of expertise. This is to say those who have limited experience (time put it, and availability), have limited experience. It is no different then any craft or profession.

Howard per your question, I consider myself a researcher. :)