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Terry Ham
25th January 2003, 22:44
Is there any connection between Shorinji kempo and Shorin Ryu Kenpo Karate?

Kimpatsu
26th January 2003, 02:56
No. None whatsoever.
Best,

Tripitaka of AA
26th January 2003, 11:49
Come on Tony, you know the drill... every question deserves a full and detailed answer, even if you've heard it before (once or twice... :D ).

Shorin is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese place name "Shaolin". Shorinji simply means "Shaolin Temple". Kempo means "fist method" or "way of the fist" or suchlike.

As there are many martial arts that trace their origins in one way or another to the famed Shaolin Temple, you will find a variety of names that use these terms. If it says "Shorinji" or "Shorin" then it is going to be a Japanese style. Likewise if you see "Kempo" it just means that it is going to be a Japanese Martial Art (most likely not a weapons-based system).

However, if it is called specifically "Shorinji Kempo" then it should be us. If it isn't, then they're breaking the copyright on a name that is registered all over the world :eek: .

Kimpatsu
26th January 2003, 23:18
Gassho.
Don't you like the new laconic style, David?
There's one other point, btw: "Shorin" is the Japanese pronunciation of "Shaolin", so there may be Chinese arts that are read as "Shorin" by the Japanese, even though said arts come from China.
Kesshu.

Anders Pettersson
27th January 2003, 07:56
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Gassho.
Don't you like the new laconic style, David?
There's one other point, btw: "Shorin" is the Japanese pronunciation of "Shaolin", so there may be Chinese arts that are read as "Shorin" by the Japanese, even though said arts come from China.
Kesshu.
Hi.

Atually Tony there is some Karate that uses different kanji.
Som Shorin ryu Karate write ?¼—Ñ which sometimes are read "matsubayashi".

But anyhow Terry, Tony are absolutely correct when he says that there are no relationship with Shorinjikempo and Karate.

/Anders

Kimpatsu
27th January 2003, 07:58
Gassho.
Anders Sensei, "Matsubayashi" would be a Japanese surname. Probably of the man who founded the style of karate in question.
Kesshu.

Nyuck3X
5th February 2003, 23:08
Nagamine Sensei named his karate Matsu-bayashi,
after the famed Bushi Matsumura. The kanji is
the same as the one use for pine.
Matsu-bayashi- Pine forest
Ko-bayashi- Small forest
Sho-bayashi- Young forest

All three have the alternate pronounciation
of Shorin. Shaolin Suu = Shorin Ryu.
By the way, the kanji for Shaolin
is the same as Shobayashi. The Seibukan
folks prefer the translation: Sukunaihaiyashi.
All point back the the Shorin/Shaolin/Young forest in China.

They are not Japanese systems but Okinawan.
It may not matter to you, but it does if
you are Okinawan. ;o)

I'm a Kobayashi player now, but I did a year in Shorinji Kenpo.
Loved it until the instructor had to move away.
Great system. No direct connection.

Peace

Gary Dolce
20th February 2003, 21:33
What's the difference technically between Shroinji Kempo and Shorin Ryu Karate?

There is so much to say it is hard to know where to begin. I have never practiced Shorin Ryu but have watched it enough to say that just about everything is different. Stances, strikes, blocks, footwork all look very different. Kata are based on completely different movements. Besides the difference in "hard" techniques, Shorinji Kempo also includes a very large number of throws, escapes, and locking techniques in its curruculum, which seem to be largely absent from Shorin Ryu.

If you are already familiar with Shorin Ryu, rather than trying to put these differences into words you might want to look at some Shorinji Kempo websites for some photos or video clips. Or better yet, if you are ever near a Shorinji Kempo dojo, go see it in person.

Joel H.
5th March 2003, 04:11
your talking of shaolin kempo karate

my system
its seems more like karate in the beging but slowly becomes more like kung fu untill black belt where its only kung fu and kempo.

its a very good system because you get the best of both chinese and japanese methods of fighting.

Gary Dolce
5th March 2003, 04:31
Actually Joel we are not talking about "shaolin temple karate". We are talking about Shorinji Kempo, which, once again, is something completely different.

Joel H.
6th March 2003, 01:30
I forgot to add the other stuff I was a litle distracted.

shourin kempo is very diffrent then shorinji kempo.

both are very good but very diffrent but not as diffrent as lets say kungfu and karate

Kimpatsu
6th March 2003, 02:33
Gassho.
Joel, Shorinji Kempo is a unique and distinct art, whereas both "karate" and "kung fu" are umbrella terms covering a multitude of different styles with certain shared characteristics. Okinawa, the birthplace of karate, has given rise to very different styles from those born on mainland Japan. Just look at the differences between Goju-ryu and Shotokan, or with Kyokushin (whose founder, Mas. Oyama, was actually born in Korea). With kung fu, the differences are even more marked, because northern styles of Shaolin are the apposite of such Hong Kong-based styles as Wing Chun. I must confess, I've never heard of your Shorin style, so some background would be appreciated before I comment further. Is there a website to which you can link?
Kesshu.

Gene Williams
6th March 2003, 03:18
Shorin-ryu Kempo Karate is redundant. It sounds like so many of these folks who just have to find a name for their made up or mix and match style. Sort of like these idiots we have running around my area saying they practice Chinese Goju Kempo. Huh? Shorin-ji kempo is a completely different art based, in part, on Daito-ryu. It is a unique system, with a strong identity and probably more stylistic integrity than most karate/kempo type arts. I've never trained in it, but have seen several demos and have a couple of friends who train in it. Gene

Kimpatsu
6th March 2003, 03:30
Gassho.
It's certainly true that "kempo karate" is redundant. I wonder where such tautology started? Any suggestions gratefully received.
Kesshu.

Gene Williams
6th March 2003, 03:34
From dumbasses making up styles. BTW, do you know how you get hearing AIDS? From listening to assholes. Gene

Joel H.
6th March 2003, 13:59
tony kehoe
this is the link to my dojo's web site wich has most of the history shaolin kempo karate (http://www.martial-fitness.net/)
and by the way Gene I'm not making it up.

Kimpatsu
6th March 2003, 14:42
I still tell you, "Kempo karate" is an oxymoron. I take it the name was coined by someone who didn't speak Japanese?

jonboy
6th March 2003, 14:47
"Kempo karate" is an oxymoron
Hadn't thought of that. Nice point :)

Sochin
6th March 2003, 15:47
Education serves better than antagonism...


Anyway,
I teach Shorin-ji Ryu, a Japanese system from Sensei Richard Kim. One of my students is in Japan as an exchange student and got to join a Shorin-ji Kempo club, thinking it sounded much the same. She said the Shotokan club at the school was much too rough and the Kempo had a lot of girls.

It has a main focus on kotegaeshi (wrist turning) and kansetsuwaza (joint locking) similar to or derived from Daito Ryu, very little kata as we know it.

Indar
6th March 2003, 16:32
For some info on 'kempo karate' see www.kempo.org

I don't think any comment is necessary

Indar Picton-Howell

tony leith
6th March 2003, 16:34
This is only the latest installment of series of unprofitable discussion about martial arts lineages. To be honest, I think Mr. Kehoe's answer - is there any relation between the Shorinji Kempo and Shorin Ryu - none beyond the nomenclature. I think it keeps coming back to the fact that martial arts knowledge is transmitted direct from teacher to student, which doesn't tend to leave a very reliable paper trail.

I'm also slightly puzzled about the point of posting somebody else's second hand - not entirely inaccurate but not very helpful - description of Shorinji Kempo on the Shorinji Kempo discussion board. I wouldn't dream of going onto say the aikido forum and unleashing my blinding ignorance of the art on the participants. Sochin's claim that Shorinji Kempo has very little kata is as misleading as you would expect from somebody with no direct acquaintance with it. True, the emphasis of our training is on pair form work, but we do have a number of kata which are fundemental to refining and reinforcing understanding of Shorinji Kempo form.

ho hum

Tony leith

Kimpatsu
6th March 2003, 17:05
Originally posted by Sochin
I teach Shorin-ji Ryu, a Japanese system from Sensei Richard Kim.
Now that sounds Japanese... :rolleyes:

Kimpatsu
6th March 2003, 17:08
Originally posted by tony leith
I wouldn't dream of going onto say the aikido forum and unleashing my blinding ignorance of the art on the participants.
Gassho.
Precisely so, Tony-san.
This is why I never visit other specific style forums on e-budo. I have nothing constructive to offer.
Kesshu.
(PS: See you on the 24th.)

Gene Williams
6th March 2003, 19:59
Joel, You are not even 20 years old yet and you have been sold a bill of goods. What you are studying is a hodge-podge of different martial arts. Ed Parker, in my opinion, was a clown and did a lot of damage to the image of martial arts. We have some guys in our area who study "Kempo Karate" and are always talking about the secrets of the "white tiger" and they are all fifth and sixth dans and about your age or a little older, and they are pitiful, not just bad, pitiful. I have seen dozens of these guys. Run, I mean knock people down getting there, to a Goju school, a Shorin-ryu school, Shorin-ji kempo, any orthodox Okinawan or Japanese school. You are wasting your time and money. Sorry, I've seen it too many times. Gene

Gene Williams
6th March 2003, 20:02
To Tony and Tony,
I did not butt in here to claim any knowledge of Shorin-ji kempo, rather to explore the redundant name which I have heard too often before. I apologise for the intrusion; I have had nothing but positive experiences with the Shorin-ji Kempo people I have met. Gene

luar
6th March 2003, 22:26
I always had this very strong feeling that most practitioners of Shorinji Kempo, myself included, rarely look at any of the popular martial arts magazines such as Black Belt. Somehow this thread renforces that.

Nyuck3X
6th March 2003, 23:07
Originally from Kimpatsu:

Now that sounds Japanese...
Do you mean Sensei Richard Kim?
Kim Sensei was born in Hawaii of a Chinese father
and Japanese mother. He was a very good friend
of Oyama Mas and Yamaguchi Gogen. Until his
recent death, he represented the Butokukai <sp?>
here in the U.S.
I believe his teacher was Joen Nakazato who was
a disciple of Kyan Chotoku.

He was a very respected teacher.

Just an FYI if you didn't already know it.

Peace

Kimpatsu
6th March 2003, 23:28
Originally posted by Nyuck3X
Do you mean Sensei Richard Kim?
Yes. The name isn't Japanese. Nor is the surname Chinese; it's Korean.

Kimpatsu
6th March 2003, 23:31
Originally posted by luar
I always had this very strong feeling that most practitioners of Shorinji Kempo, myself included, rarely look at any of the popular martial arts magazines such as Black Belt.
Gassho.
Raul-san, you're absolutely right. I never bother with the popular press. Gekkan Shorinji Kempo is much more interesting, anyway.
Kesshu.

luar
7th March 2003, 00:35
Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Gassho.
Raul-san, you're absolutely right. I never bother with the popular press. Gekkan Shorinji Kempo is much more interesting, anyway.
Kesshu.

First of all, my comments should not be taken to mean that I am looking down other styles. It's all about pursuing whatever makes you a better person. I just feel that this thread really shows how disparate we are from what is suppose to be consider the "main stream" martial arts.

Kimpatsu
7th March 2003, 00:38
Gassho.
I agree, but in my experience, those magazines are poorly written, badly edited, and so shallow as to be devoid of content. I would like to see a publication as meaty as our training.
Kesshu.

Robdawson_
7th March 2003, 11:24
Gassho
I would agree, i have flicked through some of these magazines and they all seem to hold little or no useful infomation. I have been researching Shuyo on the internet recently, and everything i have found on it is about how it means hard exercise, or severe training, and how it seems central to all martial arts. I was taught it meant Study Cultivation; in other words, improving both the mind and body at the same time, rather like Ken Zen Ichinyo. Slightly off the point, but what i was meaning to say is that all my contact with friends who do other martial arts; karate, kung fu, kickboxing, tae kwon do, ju-jitsu, never seems to learn anything about morals, but learn how to do maximum damage to a person in a fight, rather than controlling a person without causing permanent damage. I would agree that Shorinji Kempo is incredibly different to the more popular or "mainstream" martial arts.
Kesshu,

Rob Dawson

tony leith
7th March 2003, 12:12
I agree wholeheartedly re. most of what I've seen in martial arts magazines. I bought one a wee while back because it had an article about Shorinji Kempo in it ('Fighting Monks of Shorinji Kempo' or something similar - actually the content, written I think by a kenshi at the Hollywood dojo, was fine). The rest of the magazine did appear to consist of articles on how to rend tear spindle and mutilate in the shortest possible time, as well as advertisments for medieval torture implements to assist in stretching exercises, not to mention correspondence courses in martial arts offered by 20 th dan soki grand fakirs... what is this hyperinflation that goes on with dan grade - why do these people imagine that calling yourself a 10th dan enhances your credibility? The fact that these magazines along with the movies probably are resposnible in no small measure for the public image of martial arts in the West is more than a little distressing...

PS to Gene, no apology necessary.

Tony leith

luar
7th March 2003, 12:55
See what this makes me feel like this is that in this thread there was a sincere attempt to review the "family tree" of martial arts, with Shalolin being the parent, and to establish some kind of connection with us. Somewhere along the line you can see by the tone in some of the postings that we are consistently at a very much different level.

Again this is not an attempt to slight Shorin-Ryu, Shaolin Kempo Karate, Gene Williams, Joel, anybody or anything - this just an observation and open for discussion. At the same time this is not an attempt to say Shorinji Kempo is by far the most superior martial art. I like the open discussions with other martial artists and if I can learn something from them, fantastic. But to the uninitiated, there is a lot going on in this style that can only be experienced and just cannot be explained. I do not experience this when most visitor's talk about their styles or when I browse the other forums.

As far as the magazines are concern, I think they do more to alienate rather than bring everyone together.

Indar
7th March 2003, 16:09
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I would like to see a publication as meaty as our training.


so why not start one?
do it on the web, invite contributions from people.

this can work very well; see www.tnt-audio.com
(nothing to do with martial arts; a very well produced web site done by enthusiasts for love, not money)

Indar Picton-Howell

Nyuck3X
7th March 2003, 22:11
Kimpatsu,
You are correct, the name is Korean in origin. My mistake.

I'm still having trouble understanding you comment.
Your reply has an edge to it.
What does a Japanese name have to do with the original
topic? I'm not trying to bait you, but I came here to
learn more about an art form I once studied.

Peace

Gene Williams
7th March 2003, 23:12
Hi Raul, Tony, and Tony,
I quit reading popular MA magazines years ago. They are an embarassment. It seems that Shorin-ji Kempo has something that one finds only occasionally among other orthodox karate ryu. I believe that part of it is what I call "stylistic integrity", and the other is a clearly defined dojo kun that is more than a posting on the wall. Indeed, at times you sound like a sort of fraternal organization, and that is no disparagement. There are those of us in the other ryu who have worked hard for years to achieve and maintain this and I believe we have, although it is mostly on a dojo level or within small, closely maintained organizations. We do so by maintaining a strict seitei, rigorous training in standard kihon and kata, and much emphasis on mutual respect, dojo kun, lineage, and an effort to use and understand Japanese/Okinawan concepts, language, and traditions. In America, where ego rules and everybody is a master, this is difficult to do. I believe one thing that distinguishes the orthodox ryu from others is that long and diligent commitment to their "way" internalizes one's understanding of the art...more and more it becomes a "solitary way." Humility and gratitude become more and more important, and though we practice "combat" arts, the taboos against their use become stronger over time. Gene

Anders Pettersson
12th March 2003, 22:20
Gassho.

I think that we have clearly settled that Shorinjikempo is completely different from any style of Karate. But I have one last comment on some things that have been written in this thread. I should have commented on this earlier but have been to busy with other things lately.

Considering the outburst made by Kehoe and Leith (ok, maybe outburst is a strong word but as a non native English speaker that's what I could come up with right now) on people posting their thoughts and experience, even though second hand experience, are not necessary.
I think that it would be appropriate for an excuse about this.
In my opinion we should be happy to hear about how non-kenshi have experienced and understood Shorinjikempo, if we find that their understanding doesn't fit with what we consider to be correct we can help out and educate them. We shouldn't tell them to keep their mouth shut because they don't know what they talk about.

Just to make some reference some kenshi here doesn't know what they talk about either sometimes. I will give you a short example:

Tony Kehoe wrote:

"I never bother with the popular press. Gekkan Shorinji Kempo is much more interesting."
Either this should have been "Gekkan Shorinji Kempo" WAS much more... because the Gekkan hasn't been published for a couple of years, or you should have referred to the name of the present monthly magazine by its correct name "Kaiho Shorinjikempo".

I used Tony as an example because I know him and he usually corrects so many other people on this forum that he needs this. ;) . But a lot of other kenshi also sometimes state things on this forum that are not 100% correct, but usually we don't give them a hard time for that, we just correct them or educate them.
One example of a mistake that many kenshi make themselves guilty of (that could be considered minor but in my opinion it is important) is to refer to Shorinjikempo as only "Kempo", such as "Kempo techniques", "Kempo philosophy", etc. Kempo could be a lot of different things and unfortunately very often some crap that I don’t want us to be mixed up with. Just see the link provided by Indar.

Another thing is to talk about our tanen hokei as "kata", which I believe come from the problem of making non Japanese speaking people understand what we are talking about when we discuss our single forms. (And I do know that two of our single forms have names that include "kata", that is Ryu no kata and Ko manji ken that sometimes also are referred to as Manji no kata, but nevertheless the correct term when talking about Tenchiken would be tanen hokei.)

Since I am at it I could also mention the quite strange reference made by some kenshi to our Kyoten (scriptures) as Dokun. Kyoten is the correct name of the Seiku, Seigan, Raihaishi, Dokun and Shinjo, (Raihaishi are only read in Japanese Doin, not in Shibu, and Dokun are not yet officially translated to other languages, even though I know work are in progress). Dokun is a part of the Kyoten not the name of the whole scriptures that we read when doing Chinkon-gyo.

/Anders