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Kimpatsu
1st November 2001, 07:00
Gassho.
I have a question that probably has no absolute answer, so I'll ask it subjectively: Is Shorinji Kempo a religion? If so, how much of a religion is it? By which I mean, how far is it overtly religious? And if not, why not? Whatever your stance, do you think this is a good or bad thing?
I'm interested to hear the opinions of other Kenshi.
Kesshu.

Borghese
1st November 2001, 19:48
Gassho,

Tony, what is your purpose in asking?

God bless,

Robert Borghese

Kimpatsu
1st November 2001, 22:44
Dear Robert,
Curiosity.

luar
2nd November 2001, 11:56
Perhaps the answer to your question lies with the converse: When is a philosophy or ideal not a religion?

Borghese
2nd November 2001, 14:34
It is a religion as well as a defensive way. Most martial arts have an attached philosophy.

I studied for a few years under Morikawa Sensei in Kyoto. Perhaps a couple of relevant facts passed on to me: When the Bodhidarma came up out of India to carry Budhism to China, he developed/incorporated a series of physical movements into his teaching for the purpose of conditioning and preparing the body for learning. When Doshin So returned to Japan and wanted to teach this philosophy of living together in peace he brought the developed martial art and began teaching it for similar reasons - exhaust the body and prepare the mind for learning. He figured if they kids won't listen, at least I can teach them to take care of themselves. As far as its status as a religion Doshin So went to Tokyo and registered SK as a budhist religion so that they would be allowed to continue their studies during the Post WW II occupation, while most other martial arts schools were shut down.

I began studying early upon my arrival to Japan, before I learned much of the language, so received much of my early learning of the history and philosophy through other english speaking Kenshi, who had been there longer - (that is my disclaimer)

Perhaps someone can verify.

Kimpatsu
2nd November 2001, 16:00
Gassho.
Dear Borghese: First, please sign your posts with your full name. Thanks.
I have also trained at the Rakuto Doin (I was there for two years). In truth, what I'm trying to elicit is people's definition of religion. Kaiso registered SK as a "religion," but back then, even onsen and nightclubs were registering as religions for the tax breaks. Japan was so totally messed up...:rolleyes:
Dear Luar, that's precisely what I'm trying to elicit. It's not a trick question, in the sense that there's no "right answer"; what I want to know is people's definition of "religion," and thus, how SK appears to them: Religion, philosophy, moral code...
I've said on this forum before that I'm anal retentive about language :D .
Here's my opportunity to press my point.
Kesshu.

luar
3rd November 2001, 00:22
Well I figure as much which is why I posted the question as I did.

From my limted understanding of Kongo Zen, it is to me more of a philosophy than a religion like Zen and Buddhism. KZ seems to me to focus more on our potential as human beings but does not explain who we are and what we are. Those kinds of esoteric questions are fully explained in Zen and Buddhist teachings as well as Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

I enjoy the teachings of KZ but it has become my spring board to Buddhism. I will also say that has helped open my eyes to other kinds of beliefs and lately I been have reading books written by Reshald Feild and his foray into Sufisim. It is those kinds of beliefs that are better equipped to explain to me the human condition and potential.

Steven Malanosk
3rd November 2001, 01:23
Hello,

Not being a Kongo Zen follower or of the So lineage,I ask that you please just take this for what its worth.

As far as I know, Diamond Zen is without a Dogmatic figure.

I suppose this would negate the "RELIGION" title and stigmata that goes with the word.

luar
3rd November 2001, 05:31
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk
Hello,

Not being a Kongo Zen follower or of the So lineage,I ask that you please just take this for what its worth.

As far as I know, Diamond Zen is without a Dogmatic figure.

I suppose this would negate the "RELIGION" title and stigmata that goes with the word.

The Buddhah himself is not a dogmatic figure and to be so would go against the principles of Buddhism, yet it is still a religion.

I could go to Webster for a definition but I think from my own personal perspective (which is what its all about) that it is a strong set of beliefs that explain to you the complete meaning of what life is about.

Simon Voysey
12th November 2001, 17:31
Hello

In answer to your question regarding Shorinji Kempo (SK) as a religion, I think you are probably right in suggesting there is no complete answer. The definition of religion in its crudest form is "way of life". This can apply to all kinds of disciplines, so I suppose it depends to what extent a person devotes his/her life to SK. I am a new student of SK and find a good balance between the physical and the spirtual. Training is a way of life, but not in the same sense as for a monk. If training consisted of just physical or just mental development, I wouldn't find it as stimulating. I suppose the answer for me is that it's a religion if you want it to be. I'm not a Buddhist, but I am finding the main ideals of SK to be useful in other areas of my life.

Kind regards

Simon

tony leith
10th December 2001, 15:39
Like most philosophical questions, I suppose this all depends on how you define your terms. Shorinji kempo probably does not conform particularly closely to most prevailing western notions of religiosity, and incorporates what I think can fairly be termed an agnostic approach to questions of divinity and godhood (agnostic in the sense which Huxley intended when the coined the term i.e there simply being inadeuate evidence either way to support a definitive view). As the Fukodukhon explicitly states, kongo zen is not concerned with the possibility of an individual being validated or 'redeemed' by the intervention of any supernatural agency, and seems to be more pragmatically engaged with the world than many schools of Zen.
Kempo philosophy seems pretty clear that the good life can't be lived in splendid isolation from other human beings - if there is to be a moral purpose to our existence it has to be realised in the context of relationships with our fellows. In that, for me, kempo training has provided a path to that realisation I would say that it has been my own main means of religious expression over the past ten years. That being said, I think this interpretation works for me, and may well not be satisfactory for others...

Tony Leith

Anders Pettersson
10th December 2001, 17:28
Gassho.

During some problems with the e-budo.com software upgrade some posts have been lost.
Everything between the 15th of November until some day in the biginning of December is gone.
In the Shorinji Kempo forum there was only two posts in this thread that got lost, but I have a personal backup of them on my hard drive so I will repost them below.

Anders Pettersson
10th December 2001, 17:31
Originally posted by Paul Barnes on 11-26-2001


For those of you that didn't catch last week's story about a yoga class being banned from a church hall because the classes had "overtones of Eastern mysticism" and helped practitioners "ascend to a higher spiritual plane" here's a link to the story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_1668000/1668870.stm

I have always found that "coming clean" with the spiritual (for want of a better word) aspect of Shorinji Kempo from day one has proved the best policy. However the story above may serve as a word of warning for anyone using a church hall or possibly even the premises of a school with a religious affiliation (Catholic, Church of england, etc.) when advertising their Shorinji Kempo class.


__________________
Paul Barnes

Sandy Branch
British Shorinji Kempo Federation

Anders Pettersson
10th December 2001, 17:33
Originally posted by Kimpatsu (Tony Kehoe) on 11-26-2001


I guess the answer to that is not to use church halls as training venues. They don't have showers, anyway...


__________________
Tony Kehoe
I only do Shorinji Kempo for kicks.

Gary Dolce
10th December 2001, 18:21
Tony,

Very nicely stated! I have to agree that your interpretation works for me also.

In the end, I think the answer to the question (Is Shorinji Kempo a religion?) is a personal one. I think one can approach our philosophy from a purely humanist point of view (which leads to the question, is humanism a religion?). Or one can approach it as luar mentions as a springboard into Buddhism. And I know plenty of people who seem to be able to fit it into the context of another religion.

What connects with me in our philosophy is the emphasis on now rather than the hereafter. Heaven and hell exist here on earth. By our individual and collective actions, we determine what kind of world we live in. Right now, I don't feel I need anything more to give me moral purpose or to give reason to my existence. So, is it a religion for me? I don't even know that I can answer that.

Gary

luar
11th December 2001, 04:31
Originally posted by tony leith
Like most philosophical questions, I suppose this all depends on how you define your terms. Shorinji kempo probably does not conform particularly closely to most prevailing western notions of religiosity, and incorporates what I think can fairly be termed an agnostic approach to questions of divinity and godhood (agnostic in the sense which Huxley intended when the coined the term i.e there simply being inadeuate evidence either way to support a definitive view). As the Fukodukhon explicitly states, kongo zen is not concerned with the possibility of an individual being validated or 'redeemed' by the intervention of any supernatural agency, and seems to be more pragmatically engaged with the world than many schools of Zen.


The Buddah actually studied many religions of his day before he reached the enlightenment that he did. In fact it is said that his approach to his teachings was very diplomatic in the sense that he tailored his messages in a neutral fashion so as not to offend.

tony leith
12th December 2001, 14:29
I hope what I said wasn't too offensive even if it failed to be diplomatic (those who have the misfortune of knowing me are aware that diplomacy isn't my strongest suit). To me the practical signficance of any religious way of life is in the refrain 'it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it' - the ethical content is more important than the metaphysics, and to be fair it seems to me that the founders at least of all of the great religious traditions have been fairly clear on this point. No one way is necessarily any better than the others, because after all humans can reliably be expected to fall short of their ideals; the point is to strive after them anyway, which is all any of us can do.

Tony Leith

luar
14th December 2001, 20:18
Originally posted by tony leith
I hope what I said wasn't too offensive even if it failed to be diplomatic (those who have the misfortune of knowing me are aware that diplomacy isn't my strongest suit). To me the practical signficance of any religious way of life is in the refrain 'it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it' - the ethical content is more important than the metaphysics, and to be fair it seems to me that the founders at least of all of the great religious traditions have been fairly clear on this point. No one way is necessarily any better than the others, because after all humans can reliably be expected to fall short of their ideals; the point is to strive after them anyway, which is all any of us can do.

Tony Leith

Actually my comment was not directed at you... I was only providing some background info but obviously with not much elaboration.

In summary, I was trying to point out that Buddhism is very flexible. You can be a Christian, Muslim or Jew (ever hear of the book called Zen Rabbi?) and still practice Buddhism. In one book that I read called, "Essential Buddhism: A Complete Guide to Beliefs and Practices", it talks about several theories that Islam may have been influenced by Buddhism. In another chapter, it talks about Chinese Buddhists who came to the New World long before the Europeans ever did. It is said they greatly influenced the Native American population and their beliefs. Christ himself is viewed as being another rencarnation of the Buddha. All this was what I was trying to address when you talked about the agnostic nature of Buddhism.

But this is getting off the topic now so me see if I can bring this around...

The real question is whether SK is a religon. I had said earlier that I do not feel that it is not because it does not fully explain to me why we are here and who we are. In fact it seems more to describe our potential as humans.

Because those questions needed to be answered I went to its roots which was the Buddha. In here I see that it does address the human condition, how the mind works and that the God that is said to exist actually exists within ourselves. There is no dogma but guidelines because ultimately there is no one truth for everyone but only the truth that is real for you.

SK does talk about this but before I can go that route, I need to not only know the path from where I had come from but also acknowledge that that path that got me was a very rocky ride. So in that case, SK does not seem to answer that.

In my opinion (and I do not mean this as a criticism but rather as an observation), there is way too much focus on what happended to post-war Japan and there is a great deal of people who may not identify with that kind of tragedy. It would be more reflective if it was pertiment to the tragedies of my life. And keep in mind, it is when tragedied happen when people tend to seek more spiritual involvement in their lives.

This is why Buddhism appeals to me more.

Kimpatsu
16th December 2001, 03:26
Hey, Luar,
What's your real name?

luar
16th December 2001, 09:05
Interesting, my signature was turned off

Raul Rodriguez
New York City Branch

Kimpatsu
16th December 2001, 09:10
Hey, Raul,
I understand the problem. Signatures and avatars can be a bit buggy.
Best,

tony leith
18th December 2001, 15:44
It's interesting to read different individual perspectives on this. For me, the transcendental aspects of Buddhism are less persuasive and important than the psychological analysis it presents of the human condition. I don't fully buy into it, at least not to the extent of thinking that the abolition of the ego as such is either attainable nor even necessarily desireable. Kempo appeals to me precisely because it doesn't concetnrate on concepts like satori, but on taking small practical steps towards self improvement and in so doing hopefully contributing towards making the world a marginally better place. I am uncomfortable with totalising explanations of the world - I think the universe is not encompassed by any mere human conception. For me the meaning of the line in the Dokun about being grateful for the gifts of Dharma and our parents is simply that we're here because we're heere because we're here; we will never have an ultmate explanation for the fact of our existence, the point is to make what we can of it while we're here. The practice of kempo is one means to that end, though it is only one such means.

luar
23rd December 2001, 00:44
Hey Tony,

In regards to your comments about the ego it seems to me that all great teachings ask to abandon the ego - that is to understand that we are not in complete control of our lives and all self-centerness causes social alienation and disconnect. This is very apparent in Christianity, Islam, Judaism and other eastern ways. SK certainly manifests this in its overall message of promoting social harmony and how we practice in pairs.

Mind you when I use the word ego, I referring to any kind of self-centerness that obstructs social awareness. Donald Trump is an accepted example of someone who is a complete egoist. Another side to that coin would be someone who is a complete introvert who withdraws from social activity.

Satori to me does exist but I believe that small individual steps to self-improvement is also a form of satori. Satori in our practice does exist for me when you relate the overall message to the everyday world. There is no measure as to how much awareness or discovery makes satori - it is what it is and what you choose it to be. Only your truth matters.

Have a happy holiday

lemalin66
26th January 2003, 01:54
My question is rather simple should we consider shorinji kempo a religion. Could someone practicing seriously a religion whether christianism or else be an adept of shorinji kempo?

Martin Durette

Kimpatsu
26th January 2003, 02:51
No, Shorinji Kempo is not a religion in the theistic sense that you mean. Think of it more as a moral code. One reason for its registration as a religion in Japan was to get around the ban on MA after WWII. Some Kenshi are Xpians; others, like myself, are atheists. Do you fear that you would have to convert to some cult in order to practice?
Best,

luar
26th January 2003, 15:30
It is my understanding that in Asia the word religion has a slightly different meaning that also encompasses philosophical thought. Anyone care to correct me or elaborate further?

Robert Liljeblad
27th January 2003, 08:13
Hi,

It is an interesting question!
Some people will argue that Buddhism is not a religion. I would say that Kongo Zen is a religion/philosophy and Kongo Zen gyo is Shorinjikempo.

Regards,

Kimpatsu
27th January 2003, 08:20
Originally posted by Robert Persson
It is an interesting question!
Some people will argue that Buddhism is not a religion. I would say that Kongo Zen is a religion/philosophy and Kongo Zen gyo is Shorinjikempo.
Gassho, Robert-san.
Not all philosophies are religions; how do you define religion? After all, in Shorinji Kempo there is no praying, no claims of gods or an afterlife, no supplications to get the deities to notice you. So I wouldn't call Shorinji Kempo a religion. Its underpinning is moral philosophy.
Kesshu.

Anders Pettersson
27th January 2003, 08:41
Gassho.

Since we had another thread with the same headline and subject I merged the thread started by Martin Durette (lemalin66) with the old one.

One of the four parts of the Shorinjikempo organization are called Shukyo Hojin Kongo Zen Sohonzan shorinji (?@‹³–@?l‹ą?„‘T‘?–{ˇR?!—ѡ›)
Shukyo means religious.
Then it is up to everybody to make his or her own solutions.

But to define what religion is, or rather what or how it should be, is somewhat more difficult.

Best wishes.

/Anders

Robert Liljeblad
27th January 2003, 10:13
Gassho, Tony-San.

I was surprised to se my post here after replying in another thread. But after Anders Sensei post I figured it out :)

I guess one could elaborate a lot on what religion is. My father would argue that racecars (on TV) is a religion…I leave that aside for now. Sorry Tony for not having a clear definition.

For me its simply the core of my believes. And it does not mater that we do not have a god or claims about afterlives. But I would argue that Embu is a form of prayer.

I myself consider Kongo Zen to be my religion and the expression of my religion is to practice Shorinjikempo.

Could you elaborate on “underpinning is moral philosophy” ?

Kesshu,

Kimpatsu
27th January 2003, 10:53
Gassho, Robert-san.
If embu is a form of prayer, to whom are you praying?
I take your father's point. To my stepfather, I think soccer is a religion, especially when Scotland are playing an international. :)
Kesshu.

luar
27th January 2003, 12:35
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Gassho, Robert-san.
If embu is a form of prayer, to whom are you praying?
I take your father's point. To my stepfather, I think soccer is a religion, especially when Scotland are playing an international. :)
Kesshu.

For some reason this reminded me of an old George Carlin skit in which he outrageously claimed that atheism is itself a religion and therefore he should be able to declare his house as being his church and not pay taxes.

Kimpatsu
27th January 2003, 12:55
Gassho, Raul-san.
Atheism isn't a religion, but I quite like the idea of not paying any more taxes... ;)
Kesshu.

Frost
28th January 2003, 08:32
Well for start I guess I´ll introduse my self..

My name is Jan Zachrison
Shorinjikempo Gothenburg, Sweden, Shodan
age 24


I´ve just sort of glanced trough this thread but for me a religion needs a God.

The way I see it you need a God to worship and pray to for help, comfort and so the list goes on...

Just my oppinion...

Jan

Two roads diverged in the woods/
and I
I took the one less traveled by/

tony leith
28th January 2003, 16:31
It's true that in the dominant religious cultures of the West, God (and gods) have been central. I'd say that implicitly regarding theistic belief systems as humankind's only legitimate form of religious expression is a bit limiting, however. For me, a religious sensibility doesn't have to be expressed through the medium of any particular church or creed, or even any rigidly defined belief system - it's about trying to define for yourself a moral concept of (or purpose in) being, and then live up to it. Some people might prefer to call that ethics, but for me defining this moral sense of being also means trying to resolve existential issues. Buddhism seems to me to be one of the richest traditions available in terms of helping to do this, but that's only my opinion.

Tony leith

Kimpatsu
31st January 2003, 01:23
Originally posted by bruceb
How close are the Little Pine Tree Temple Boxers of Fist Law and Wally Jay Jujitsu to Shorinji?
None. See the basic questions (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16788) and roots (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16658) threads for details.
HTH.

Indar
1st February 2003, 21:21
Since this question appears in the Shorinji Kempo syllabus at sandan level, any kenshi who have graded to sandan or above should presumably be able to attempt an answer to Tony Kehoes question: is Shorinji Kempo a religion?

I believe that the essence of religion is serious intention; we acknowledge this when we talk about someone 'practicing religiously', regardless of what they are practicing. In Japan flower arranging and the tea ceremony are gyo, i.e. Zen arts, and I assume can therefore be regarded as religious practices. By this definition football could indeed be a religion, if it is practiced seriously, and because of this leads one to examine and change his or her life.
If you read Mori Sensei's article, available in translation at www.bskf.org , he clearly believed that Shorinji Kempo is a religion, and there can be no doubt about his serious intention.
It's a pity that no-one on this forum answered Robert Persson's question about Sokai ranks (where's Tony Kehoe when you need him to do something useful?), since this would have helped answer the question.
To sum up, as Kaiso said, it's all down to the individual, and whether you practice Shorinji Kempo as a hobby, or with a more serious intent.

Indar Picton-Howell

Tripitaka of AA
1st February 2003, 21:34
...and the chart by Cailey Barker on the new BSKF website goes some way to explaining the ranking system.

Now that was something I could never get my head around. Thanks the Sensei Barker for that one (and any translators involved...).

Kimpatsu
1st February 2003, 23:51
Originally posted by Indar
It's a pity that no-one on this forum answered Robert Persson's question about Sokai ranks (where's Tony Kehoe when you need him to do something useful?)...
Gassho, Indar-san.
OK, I'll write a full answer later in the week, when I have some time (it's Chinese New Year this weekend, and the chances of me doing anywork are zero).
Kesshu.

tony leith
4th February 2003, 13:45
I think there is a tendency to get hung up on the word religion - in the West, this tends to mean a defined body of beliefs to which one must subscribe in order to count as an adherent (NB I'm primarily talking abouit Christianity here, not Islam or Judaism). It's therefore primarily about taking a faith position which typically requires a leap beyond rationality; belonging to most christian denominations involves signing up to some kind of doctrinal statement (I believe Islam has something similar, though it seems to demand a lot more than most Christian churches in terms of demonstrating a commitment to these beliefs).

As Indar says, the meaning of religion in Japan seems to be constructed differently (though perhaps not so very differently from the Gnostic and mystic traditions in Christianity). Sincerity and commitment in what you're doing seem to be the key - trying to live a life with whole hearted commitment and integrity. Kongo Zen seems to be fundementally a philosophy which is compatible with a scientific/rational view of the world, although perhaps requiring an act of faith in terms of the intrinsic value of human life (I think the foundation of this belief is ultimately emotional rather than rational).

MTW as a Scot living in West Central Scotland I require no convincing that for some people football is indeed a religion - happily as somebody who suffered the childhood trauma of Scotland's disastrous World Cup campaign of 1978 I have a life long immunity from that particular affliction. I'd be better employed becoming a Zoroastrian...

Tony leith

George Hyde
4th February 2003, 16:47
For me, this is all a question of identity...

When I worked as a voluntary counsellor for people with drinking problems, not using the term "alcoholic" was a strictly applied policy. Not because we had any problem with what the term suggested, but because we had absolutely no control over what the term suggested. When a client referred to himself or herself as an alcoholic they could mean?

"I'm an alcoholic, therefore there's nothing that can be done so don't waste your time trying to cure me!"

or "I'm an alcoholic, therefore I need to do something about it!"

...and there are as many variations on the interpretation as there are people who drink, rendering the term as a 'definitive' functionally useless.

When pushed into 'diagnosing' a client, i.e. answering the question, "So, am I an alcoholic or what?", my response would be?
"Do you drink? (yes)
Does it cause problems? (yes)
Are you aware of the problems? (yes)
And you continue to drink? (yes)
...then you have a drinking problem! Call it alcoholism if you wish, but naming it doesn't change much."

Problems arise when people see a term as something that in some way labels, identifies and stigmatises them; limits their options; and places unwanted responsibilities and/or expectations upon them.

Much the same applies to the term "religion". I'm quite happy to describe Shorinji Kempo as a religion and be described as an adherent thereof. I'm also quite happy to be described as an alcoholic, even though I haven't had a drink in 18 years. In both cases there will be many people that would vociferously disagree because their assessment of my behaviour does not mesh with their personal interpretation of the terms. More importantly, both drinkers and kenshi alike will assume that my willingness to be thus described in some way suggests what I expect of them - not because of how I behave, but because of their own personal interpretations and opinion that these terms constitute identities. To me it matters not.

To apply the same method to the question of Shorinji Kempo (or anything else for that matter) as a religion / religious practice...
"Does what you do occupy a significant part of your life? (yes)
Does what you do make demands on a significant portion of your life which you happily accommodate? (yes)
Does what you do occupy your thoughts and become evident in other areas of your life? (yes)
Does what you do raise and provide acceptable answers to important questions of morality and personal responsibility? (yes)
Does what you do encourage you to consider the consequences of your actions? (yes)
Does what you do influence your character in a positive way? (yes)
...then you clearly take (whatever it is you do) very seriously, and it is certainly more than just a hobby! Call it a religion if you will, but naming it doesn't change much."

Obviously I could ask lots of questions that would be more applicable to the more widely held view of what is or is not a religion, like "Does what you do involve saying prayers; going to church/mosque/temple; promise life after death, etc, etc..." but it's not the widely held view that's in question.

In stark contrast to the West and Middle East, in Japan people do not so readily use religion as a means of identifying themselves. Many individuals through the course of their lives will partake of a wide range of Shinto, Buddhist and Christian rituals and ceremonies as may be deemed appropriate to their particular needs at any given time, thereby treating the available range of teachings and practices as a spiritual resource. A much healthier approach to the interpretation of religion IMHO.

Is Shorinji Kempo a religion? Is reflexology a science? Is ballroom dancing a sport?

...is it really that important?

Later,

Tripitaka of AA
4th February 2003, 18:29
Oh I say!

[Stands Up. Leads a round of applause.]

A beautifully structured and illustrated piece. Personal, yet universal. It made my day to read it. Well done George!

Who was it that said that E-Budo was only for light-hearted chit-chat and jolly japes? I shall direct them to this piece.

Kimpatsu
5th February 2003, 09:55
Originally posted by George Hyde
Is reflexology a science?
No. It's psuedoscience. It's quackery. It's definitely NOT a science.

Indar
5th February 2003, 10:38
Originally posted by George Hyde

...is it really that important?


presumably yes, thats why the question is in the syllabus

valid point though, and one also made by Johan Frendin in another thread: If someone comes along to a class and you start by telling them that Shorinji Kempo is a religion, they are likely to get the wrong idea. However, if you tell them that it is a hobby they are also likely to get the wrong idea. So how should Shorinji Kempo be presented in the West ?

Indar Picton-Howell

George Hyde
5th February 2003, 12:11
Thanks David, the cheque is in the post ;)


Originally posted by Indar
presumably yes, thats why the question is in the syllabus


Not wishing to be pedantic :) but isn't the question "What is religion?" Just like, "What is science?", "What is Sport?" "What is an alcoholic?" - the idea is not to define Shorinji Kempo as being or not being a religious practice - Just like "What is true strength?" doesn't mean "Is Shorinji Kempo truly strong?". The idea is to challenge and clarify our perceptions of the terms and examine what (if anything) that means for our behaviour.

I can define the term alcoholic for myself, but to assume that the definition was a 'one size fits all' term would be a mistake and serve no useful purpose in the counselling process (unless the person I was counselling held precisely the same view - and establishing that fact is near impossible). Therefore, in this rather narrowly defined example, the only productive area of consideration is behaviour. If I were to put a label on that behaviour I would be labelling the client with his or her own perceptions of what it meant to be an alcoholic - something which I could never fully know and would in all probability be entirely different to my own. In the fullness of time, (hopefully) having modified that behaviour, the client may consider themselves to be an alcoholic, an alcoholic in recovery, or an ex-alcoholic - providing their perceptions of these terms and particularly the term by which they choose to describe themselves are conducive to continued well being, job done - the label is irrelevant.

So think about it - what is religion? Don't look it up in a dictionary - that's someone's effort at imposing an objective view on something which is necessarily subjective. Answer it in terms of what it means for behaviour, particularly your behaviour and you'll be getting somewhere. If that behaviour amounts to a sense of secure spiritual well being but not at the expense of productive, considerate, social interaction, job done! If you feel the need to put a label on it by all means do so - just don't assume that having done so you can freely apply that same label to everyone else - even if their behaviour appears to you to fit the bill.

Later,

Kimpatsu
5th February 2003, 12:57
Originally posted by Indar
(Snip)... So how should Shorinji Kempo be presented in the West ?
Gassho.
I think it depends on the individual, Captain. For an intellectual, appealing to the intellectual side of Shorinji Kempo is more effective than stressing combat techniques, whereas a manual labourer would be more impressed by its physical side, because they are generically more physical. "Can a dog achieve enlightenment?"
BTW, did you get my PM?
Kesshu.

Indar
5th February 2003, 13:15
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
[B]
Gassho.
For an intellectual, appealing to the intellectual side of Shorinji Kempo is more effective than stressing combat techniques, whereas a manual labourer would be more impressed by its physical side, because they are generically more physical.

Actually I disagree: It could well be that the intellectual is the one that feels physically insecure and wants to learn self defence, whereas the labourer could be the one that does not feel the need to develop physically, but does want to advance spiritually. You seem to be saying that it's o.k. to tell people whatever they expect to hear, in order to get them into the dojo.


Originally posted by Kimpatsu
BTW, did you get my PM?

whats a PM?


Originally posted by George Hyde
Not wishing to be pedantic :) but isn't the question "What is religion?"
Not wishing to be pedantic, but you didn't answer my question. If someone comes into your dojo and asks you whether Shorinji Kempo is a religion, what do you tell them?

Indar Picton-Howell

Kimpatsu
5th February 2003, 13:53
Gassho.
Indar-san,
You're right. I was reverting to stereotypes rather than thinking. My apologies.
A PM is a private message. I sent you one several days ago. Check the personal info at the bottom of the home page.
Kesshu.

tony leith
5th February 2003, 14:19
If SK has meaning as a spiritual path then that meaning will surely have to be defined by the individual concerned. George's discussion of the use of the term 'alcoholic' is instructive - lots of concepts are essentially contested ( and contestable), the meaning of religion not least amonst them. Usually it's possible to find some circumlocution that suggests that Kempo has a deeper purpose than calisthenics or fighting techniques without the dreaded 'r' word coming into play. In trms of how I would talk to beginners about this kind of stuff, it would probably dependon their own level of expressed interest. In the end, if they're not sympathetic to kempo philosophy, they're probably going to drift away in the end, given that the philosophy is deeply embedded in the training methodology.

Tony leith

George Hyde
5th February 2003, 14:42
Originally posted by Indar
Not wishing to be pedantic, but you didn't answer my question. If someone comes into your dojo and asks you whether Shorinji Kempo is a religion, what do you tell them?

OK - you said earlier...


If someone comes along to a class and you start by telling them that Shorinji Kempo is a religion, they are likely to get the wrong idea.

Not quite - they're certain to get their idea - which may or may not be the same as mine. Therefore it would be unwise, not to mention pointless, to make such a statement. Subjective terms can only be reliably used as labels/identities by individuals to themselves.

(Forgive me for continuing to rely on the alcoholic analogy, but...) Whenever I was pushed into a diagnosis by a client I would encourage them to ask of themselves what practical difference being labelled or not labelled an alcoholic would make to their circumstances and the choices they would have. Then having done so to ask themselves which they would prefer.

Should someone come into the dojo brandishing such questions from day one, I suspect they would be concerned with what I alluded to earlier - the fact that such a distinction constitutes an identity which limits their options, and places upon them expectations and responsibilities which they are not willing to accept. As Tony (L) mentioned earlier, the term implies "a defined body of beliefs to which one must subscribe in order to count as an adherent" and nobody wants to participate in any practice which has the intent of changing their beliefs unless they consider their beliefs to be already in question.

The reality is, that in its fullest sense, Shorinji Kempo has such aspirations - it's not just a diversion - but by the same token it's not an enforced prescription for life. It is accepting and tolerant of all spiritual beliefs - even the most strongly held - but primarily concerned with actions of the individual. As such it is concerned with behaviour and not beliefs and any "prescription" it may make with regard to behaviour will not be in conflict with any recognised belief system (I say that in the sure and certain hope that I never get any diabolists in the dojo). :redhot:


So how should Shorinji Kempo be presented in the West ?

Honestly.

Later,

tony leith
7th February 2003, 12:32
I think the point George made about prescriptiveness is key here. The kind of ethical obligations that Shorinji Kempo imposes on its practioners are not something that any reasonable person could object to, pretty much amounting to treating others with the respect with which you would expect them to treat you. Beyond that, it is up to the individual to internalise and actualise the philosophy in the way that makes sense to them.

One of the things that appeals to me about Kongo Zen as opposed to other schools of Buddhism is its extreme pragmatism and preoccupation with being-in-the-world. That's why the training works as a form of spiritual discipline, because it's teaching you real and valuable lessons about relating to other human beings as well as about realising your own potential.


Tony leith

Indar
8th February 2003, 10:47
The replies that have been posted are very valid, but (in my view) don't address the issue.
There is a cynical/negative view of 'religion', perhaps brought into focus by the attack on the world trade centre in New York.
Shortly after this I received a phone call from a company doing a poll on behalf of a national newspaper. They asked 'how do you feel about Islamic terrorism?'. I objected to this strongly, saying that the use of the term 'Islamic terrorism' was very misleading.
I agree with George that to describe Shorinji Kempo as a religion doesn't actually tell you anything useful; as George quite rightly says, to describe him as an alcoholic doesn't tell you anything about the person.
The problem with this is people typically seem to see Shorinji Kempo as a commercial enterprise, and this is shown by their behaviour, although they know intellectually that this is not the case.
I say this from many years experience of managing a dojo. Because people are paying a fee to train, they assume that all the work necessary to run the dojo will be done on their behalf, with no effort coming from them.
What I'm trying to get to is a way of describing the essence of Shorinji Kempo, without using loaded terminology like 'religion'.
Any ideas?

Indar Picton-Howell

Gary Dolce
9th February 2003, 20:36
Gassho,

I agree that labels, especially ones as charged with different meanings as the word "religion", are not helpful in describing what Shorinji Kempo is. Sometimes I use the phrase "philosphical disciplne" to describe Shorinji Kempo. It seems a lot less loaded that "religion" and it comes closer to my own interpretation of Shorinji Kempo, but of course it has its own limitations.

Regarding Indar's practical concern, I really think the perception that Shorinji Kempo is just another commercial business is a separate issue. I tell everyone that asks about our dojo that we do not operate as a commercial business, but instead as a cooperative club, with expenses and work shared by all members. I point out that I pay dues just like everyone else and that 100% of our income goes to pay club expenses such as rent and equipment purchases. A lot of people find this to be a very appealing way to run an organization, and buy into this approach from the beginning. As a result, Kenshi are ready and willing to help with things when asked, as long as the request is reasonable (asking people to put up signs to advertise the Branch is reasonable, asking them to wash my car isn't). Of course, we have to recognize that not everyone is able to devote an equal amount of time and commitment to the Branch. But everyone should be able and willing to give something back, even if it is just a small amount of time and effort.

Isn't the essence of Shorinji Kempo learning to live half for oneself and half for others? If people can't practice that within the Branch, they are missing the point.

Gary