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gmarquay
27th January 2003, 13:00
Are there or are there not any Shoden, Chuden, and Okuden kata in this ryu-ha?

I have been told that Kukishinden ryu bojutsu is just the 25 Keiko Sabaki kata.

Which is true?

- Glenn Marquay

Todd Schweinhart
28th January 2003, 00:00
Hello,

I recall Manaka sensei once saying that the Sabaki gata of the bujinkan were more advanced and came after the shoden, chuden and okuden level kata. He said he wasn't sure why Hatsumi sensei told him to teach the sabaki gata first. The sabaki gata are the only ones I have seen listed in some of the Ishiya makimono so the shoden, chuden and okuden (commonly called the kangi no kata) may be from some other branch of the kukishin ryu.

Hope this helps,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville Kentucky

John Lindsey
28th January 2003, 00:59
The sabaki gata are the classical/ traditional kata most closely associated with the various Kuki ryuha. The other kata supposedly come from the Tenshin Tatara Kangi-den no maki.

Yanosuke
28th January 2003, 01:57
I dunno if this can help i dont know if its legit but its what i have in my notes.. :

KUKISHINDEN RYU ROIKUMIUCHI

Dakentaijutsu
Goho No Kamae - 5 kata
Shoden - 9 kata
Chuden - 12 kata
Sabaki - 12 kata
Okuden - 12 kata
Shirabe Moguri Gata -12 kata
Weapons Kata
Bikenjutsu (sword arts) - 20 kata
Kodachi (short sword) - 3 kata
Jutte (sword catcher) - 5 kata
Jo kata (short bo) - 16 kata
Bo kata (~2 meter stick) - 66 kata
Hanbo Kata (~1 meter stick) - 22 kata
Yari Kata (spear) - 28 kata
Naginata (sword on a stick) - 13 kata
Bi Naginata Jutsu Gata (sword on a stick)-
Bisento Jutsu Gata (big sword on a stick) - 9 kata



And ... in BO kata you got :

10 Kamae
kihon gata :5 kata
Keiko Sabaki Gata : 25 kata
Shoden No Kata : 9 Kata
Chuden No Kata: 9 kata
Okuden No Kata ; 9 kata

and so on, for other weapons too, Kukishinden have very many techniques.

Shin-no-Tora
28th January 2003, 04:05
Tenshin Tatara kangi-den no maki? I'm assuming that's part of the Amatsu Tatara, right? I think I read that somewhere; maybe tatara magazine.

Out of curiousity, what ever happened to the original Takagi Ryu bojutsu/sojutsu? Did any of that remain after the Takagi/Okuni exchange?

Sorry for the questions. I hope I'm not prying too deep.

John Lindsey
28th January 2003, 04:53
There are various collections of Amatsu Tatara scrolls, depending on which family they were connected to. The Amatsu Tatara Nakatomi HIbumi no Maki of the Nakatomi family lists 2 scrolls titled Kuki hiden bojutsu hiho no maki. This might be the main collection we all know so well?

The Amatsu Tatara Hisshin Ginko Roku of the Mononobe family lists two scrolls of kangi no maki.

I have never heard of the kangi no maki bo kata being taught in the Genbukan. It might be, but I am only working on my shodan in bojutsu so maybe in time I will :).

Kamiyama
28th January 2003, 06:04
Yan Morondo,
Your list is very good.

kamiyama, ralph severe

JIGOKU
28th January 2003, 10:37
Hi everybody

As far as I kno there are first

25 Koshiki/Sabaki gata

They are not fighting kata.
In these Kata we learn the use of the Bo.
(According to Manaka Sensei, Someya Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei

After that we have

Shoden - Chuden and Okuden (each Level contains of 9 Kata)

Those are the fighting kata - the applications.
They are shorter but focus much more on timing, power and dynamics

Regards

Kamiyama
28th January 2003, 19:18
Stefan Marcec very good point.. I don't believe the kukishinden ryuha have the other three sets of 9 bo gata..? They are never listed in my kukishinden ryuha book I have on it's history and techniques..
Also I believe they are from another ryuha.. from what I was told by a few people training in Japan..
This seems to be an on-going question..
More importantly.. does it matter?
I like these kata a lot..

ok
kamiyama, ralph severe

Shin-no-Tora
28th January 2003, 20:35
Mr. Severe,

If the shoden, chuden, okuden gata are from the Amatsu Tatara (when did the Mononobe & Kuki families share??), then it would seem only natural that the Kuki arts would have these. Which Kuki art is the problem; aren't there a dozen or more "different" lines?

Good discussion!