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DCPan
28th January 2003, 23:55
Hi all,

On saya banare for the nukitsuke for mae for seitei.

I've thought, previously, that saya banare, while beginning earlier then the cut, ends with the end of the cut, kind of like the counter effect of the other hand in your standard karate reverse punch. This, however, results in the hip turning opposite the direction of the cut. Think Chinese sword finger effect, if you will. As due to the counter-directional hip turn to the left, your upper body would be in hanmi.

Now, I'm told to try to think of the saya banare as just the release of the tip, no power generation or countering effect. Instead, the power of the draw/cut is achieved by the turning of the hip to the direction of the cut, which is to the right. This way, you will be square with the opponent with the upperbody at the end of the cut too.

Thoughts? :D

renfield_kuroda
29th January 2003, 00:39
I can't really comment on the seiteigata, but in Mugairyu Iaihyodo, sayabiki (literally "pulling the scabbard") is essential.
A typical basic practice move involves:
From standing, step forward with the left leg as the hands go to the tsuka (left hand pushes the sword and saya out and right hand takes hold of the tsuka at the center of the body)
As soon as the right hand is on the tsuka, left hand moves the saya back towards the hip
Step forward with the right foot as the left hand continues to draw the saya back and the right hand pushes (not pulls) the sword forward
As the right foot is forward, note that the left hip is back, in essence you're in hanmi, right side forward, tsuka pointing straight ahead (at the opponent's right side)
As soon as the kissaki clears the saya, squeeze the right hand grip (pinkie first) to bring the kissaki forward and into the correect grip position
As the right foot finishes moving foward, the right arm and hip turn to the right, and the sword impacts the opponent's right side just as the right foot has stepped into position
With the right foot in place, the hips continue to turn to the right, pulling the blade through the opponent. However the hips don't overturn past the right; once the hips are squared, the shoulder carries the pull through the opponent.

The best explanation I've heard so far is: if you hold a rubber band pinched with the left and right hands, move the right hand to the right, stretching the rubber hand, then without moving the right hand, let go with the left hand. The rubber band snaps towards the right hand. That's kind of the action of the hips and arm/shoulder.

Note that in Mugairyu Iaihyodo, there is no wrist action in the cut; as soon as the kissaki is clear, the te-no-uchi (grip) must be firmly established, the wrist and arm held firm (without locking the elbow), the speed and power coming from the turning of the hips and the drawing from the shoulder.

Now, the fun part comes in doing this with the LEFT leg forward; then what the hell do you do with your hips?! If I ever figure that out, I'll consider it satori! And then of course do it from zagi...

Regards,
renfield kuroda

Charles Mahan
29th January 2003, 02:41
Hmm... Doesn't Seitei's Mae come from MJER? The motion you describe we call Saya-biki also.

Let's see... This is so hard to describe in print. I probably shouldn't even try, but what the heck. I will assume we are talking about a horizontal cut and see what happens.

I draw, and I say I draw because I am not necessarily doing it correctly, with the edge straight up and with the tsuka pointing towards my opponent's suigetsu. My right hand draws to full extension, without leaning, while my left hand is pulling the saya back. Just before my right hand reaches full extension, my left hand has pulled the saya back so that the kurigata comes into contact with my obi. The edge is still upright at this point preserving my options.

There is a decision point that occurs in the last moments of the draw. Not a pause exactly. It occurs simultaneously during the last moments of the draw. Once the decision is made to cut horizontally things happen at an explosive speed. The right hand is still only really lightly holding the sword. The left hand, which still has the edge of the sword up, suddenly turns about 90 degrees, possibly a little further and the saya is forced back and around very hard.

As the saya is turned and forced back by the left hand, the tsuka litterally turns in the grip of the right hand establishing a strong tenouchi. I'm not really sure how to describe tenouchi, beyond stating that it has the feeling of the palm of your hand being very much on top of the tsuka. Just before the tip comes free the right hand established tenouchi and the tip, for lack of a better term, pops up to bring the blade horizontal to the ground. Also at this moment of the tip coming free the cut begins in the smaller fingers of the right hand and has the feeling of closing the wrist one finger at a time starting with the pinky.

The cut continues primarily in the wrist until the monouchi swings around to a point where it is going to make contact with your oponnent and the cut really begins. Up to this point the forearm, upper arm, and shoulder have been largely immobile. At a certain point in the rotation of the sword around the wrist you will reach a point where the wrist cannot go any further. This point will come just before contact is made with your opponent's right deltoid muscle, assuming his arms down. Just before your wrist reaches it's full turn and your monouchi makes contact with your opponent, your right arm enters the equation.

At this point your right arm takes over powering the cut across the side and front of your opponents right shoulder, across both pecs and the front of your opponent's left shoulder. Of course this is the ideal scenario, any number of things could happen if the cut is a little high or low, but this is the goal. Once your blade has cut past your opponent's right shoulder, the cut stops. After all there's nothing else out there to cut.

Once the blade stops you should find that your blade is pointing straight towards shomen. Your right arm will be roughly level with the ground. From tsuka to kissaki, the blade will be horizontal or angled down slightly. Your hasuji should pretty much level with the ground as it was a horizontal cut. Your right arm should be pretty forward such that your tsuba is roughly as far forward as your knee. That of course assumes your stance is similar to mine.

Ugh. That's a scary thought. All of that and I forgot to describe what goes on from the waist down. I'm not gonna try to squish the hips into that novel I just wrote, but suffice it to say that the hips stay pretty much dead on. Unless your sword is a little too long for you, and then it's ok to put a little bit of a hip twist in, but the hips must come back to square.

Geesh this really is difficult to get into words. That was an awful lot of words to describe a pretty simple horizontal draw and cut. Oh and keep in mind this is what I am doing. Not necessarily what I am being taught and should in no way reflect on anything but my own skill, or more appropriately lack thereof.

ulvulv
29th January 2003, 13:29
Originally posted by DCPan
Hi all,

On saya banare for the nukitsuke for mae for seitei.

I've thought, previously, that saya banare, while beginning earlier then the cut, ends with the end of the cut, kind of like the counter effect of the other hand in your standard karate reverse punch. This, however, results in the hip turning opposite the direction of the cut. Think Chinese sword finger effect, if you will. As due to the counter-directional hip turn to the left, your upper body would be in hanmi.

Now, I'm told to try to think of the saya banare as just the release of the tip, no power generation or countering effect. Instead, the power of the draw/cut is achieved by the turning of the hip to the direction of the cut, which is to the right. This way, you will be square with the opponent with the upperbody at the end of the cut too.

Thoughts? :D


I do the first version, the hanmi position makes kissaki reach a bit further than with square upperbody towards tekki. I was taught that s. banare is just the moment of release, while s. biki is the rest of the saya movement. During furikaburi, the upperbody will become square with the opponent before kirioroshi.

Did the same teacher give you both versions?

DCPan
29th January 2003, 21:26
Originally posted by Charles Mahan
Hmm... Doesn't Seitei's Mae come from MJER? The motion you describe we call Saya-biki also.


From what I understand, the distinction between saya-biki and saya-banare is this.

Saya-biki is the drawning back of the scabbard.

Saya-banare is the uncapping of the kissaki.

So, in a draw, you'd have

koiguchi-giri -> saya-biki -> saya-banare -> blood!

DCPan
29th January 2003, 21:52
Originally posted by ulvulv


Did the same teacher give you both versions?

Sort of. The first version was the way I thought of it. The first version of also the way my teacher thought of it.

Lately, my teacher got the 2nd version from going back to his teacher.

The rest is history.

It's also a koryu vs. seitei thing it seems.

DCPan
29th January 2003, 21:58
Originally posted by Charles Mahan
The edge is still upright at this point preserving my options.

There is a decision point that occurs in the last moments of the draw.

Okay, so I would call what happens before the "decision point" saya-biki.

Saya-banare would be what happens after you "decide" to draw. Saya-banare literally means to "release or let go of the saya", i.e. letting the tip go, letting the draw happen, letting the arrow off the bowstring...etc etc etc...I'm getting ahead of myself with them descriptions here :D

So, what do you do in Seitei #5, Kesa-giri...do you preserve the vertical draw and rotate into the kiri-age in the final moment?

Charles Mahan
30th January 2003, 00:06
Originally posted by DCPan

So, what do you do in Seitei #5, Kesa-giri...do you preserve the vertical draw and rotate into the kiri-age in the final moment?

I do not do Seitei. Strictly MJER. That said we do draws to kesa-giri and kiri-age(assuming I'm not getting my terminology mixed up again). Yes the draw would be the same. For a one handed kesa cut, the saya-banare(learn something new everyday) would setup the attack angle. In MJER, at least as practiced in the Seitokai, the edge is kept upright on the draw leading to kiri-age also. The saya-banare would involve rotating the saya around 130 degrees positioning the hasuji to make the same cut as kesa-giri but through the reverse path.

ulvulv
30th January 2003, 11:23
Originally posted by DCPan


So, what do you do in Seitei #5, Kesa-giri...do you preserve the vertical draw and rotate into the kiri-age in the final moment?

Yes
Earlier(1o years or so), the saya would be turned up side down as you grabbed tsuka the first time, edge pointing down. Now, i have been taught that you should show your intent as late as possible, turning the saya just before sayabanare. I do not draw purely vertical in the beginning though, I draw tsuka slightly upwards, towards tekki^s face.

Chidokan
30th January 2003, 13:09
i

Chidokan
30th January 2003, 13:16
who pressed the enter button then???:D
I was shown something quite interesting for advanced students in MJER, (dont know if you do this already,) but its to do with the rotation time and hands. To compare with seitei, the left hand rotates the saya when the blade is a third out. This method the right hand rotates the blade over the length of the kissaki as you clear the koiguchi. A nice description I got as well was to try and push your left little finger through your stomach for noto, also putting the saya on the blade... alll the 'twisting'is again done only over the kissaki length. Try it with an iaito first mind!

Tim Hamilton

Charles Mahan
30th January 2003, 19:37
Originally posted by Chidokan
This method the right hand rotates the blade over the length of the kissaki as you clear the koiguchi. ... alll the 'twisting'is again done only over the kissaki length. Try it with an iaito first mind!

Tim Hamilton

I think that's what I was trying to describe yes. The twisting all comes at the very tail end of the draw, and after you decide what kind of cut you are going to make. This is during the timeframe that David is referring to as Saya-banare.

See what I mean about this being hard to describe. I doubt anyone but other MJER people have any idea what I was really getting at and that was as detailed as I could think to make it at the time.

DCPan
31st January 2003, 00:23
Originally posted by ulvulv


Yes
Earlier(1o years or so), the saya would be turned up side down as you grabbed tsuka the first time, edge pointing down. Now, i have been taught that you should show your intent as late as possible, turning the saya just before sayabanare. I do not draw purely vertical in the beginning though, I draw tsuka slightly upwards, towards tekki^s face.

Yeah, but in changing the draw, the scenario has changed.

I would imagine that if I would turn the saya as you grabbed the tsuka if the opponent was already close and in jodan ready to cut me...just draw and cut him.

The interpretation of showing your intent as late as possible is more consistent with iai-DO in giving the chance to back down. I would imagine in this case that the opponent is advancing while I'm drawing...I rotate the saya and cut because instead of backing down, he raised his sword to cut.

Thoughts :D

Charles Mahan
31st January 2003, 01:51
Originally posted by DCPan


The interpretation of showing your intent as late as possible is more consistent with iai-DO in giving the chance to back down. I would imagine in this case that the opponent is advancing while I'm drawing...I rotate the saya and cut because instead of backing down, he raised his sword to cut.

Thoughts :D

Oh no... Don't start that again. The purpose is not to give him a chance to back down. The purpose is to preserve your options and avoid telegraphing your intent. It is purely a tactical concept. And yes it is very consistent with Iaido. Very combative ;)

Charles Mahan
31st January 2003, 03:45
I've had a little more time to think on it and I want to add a few further comments. When I mentioned in a previous post that the idea is to not give away your intent, what I meant was not to give away which opening cut you intend to use. I did not mean the idea was to not to give away your intention to use force at all.

Just to add to the previous thoughts. The sword should never be drawn without the intent to kill. Once the decision is made that the sword must be drawn, then your purpose is to kill. Period. If you do not need to kill you opponent, you do no need to draw. Any other purpose to drawing your sword is likely to get you killed. Anything else is not Iaido.

I know that sounds a little bloodthirsty, but it's a bloodthirsty sort of art we study.

BTW I've had a chance to checkup on Saya-banare. Ray-sensei says that the term is used to describe what the left hand does after the initial cut. It is the act of pulling the koiguchi forward, up and back to the center so as to get it out of the way of further cuts. Usually this is done as the left hand travels from where it performed saya biki to a position over the head for whatever kind of follow up cut. Somewhere between the two positions it lets go of the saya positioning it appropriately.

Chidokan
31st January 2003, 17:57
I think this thread goes to show exactly how difficult it is to transmit body movements orally. No wonder we lose so many old waza! It sort of makes it clear why most schools have a descriptive name for each, like 'tigers run' etc... thinking on this I looked at Hyaku's website where a book on MJER is translated. It dawned on me that because I know what the subject is and am familiar with MJER, I understood it o.k. and could follow the reasoning. It would be interesting to see what a non-swordsman would make of the descriptions after training for a year with just the book as a guideline... For instance I know from personal experience that it takes me so long to do Mae, would he alter all the timing, be quicker or slower etc as this is not noted.

Tim Hamilton

ulvulv
31st January 2003, 18:00
Originally posted by Charles Mahan


Oh no... Don't start that again. The purpose is not to give him a chance to back down. The purpose is to preserve your options and avoid telegraphing your intent. It is purely a tactical concept. And yes it is very consistent with Iaido. Very combative ;)

I intend both. If I would not give him the chance to back down, I would not draw with jo-ha-kyu, I would fling out my sword as fast as possible, at the moment I sensed danger. When I give him the chance to back down, it is trough showing him my overall intent of passing him on to a higher dojo if he do not behave. But how i will cut him, I will not give away before its too late. For him.

DCPan
31st January 2003, 18:23
Originally posted by Charles Mahan


BTW I've had a chance to checkup on Saya-banare. Ray-sensei says that the term is used to describe what the left hand does after the initial cut. It is the act of pulling the koiguchi forward, up and back to the center so as to get it out of the way of further cuts.

With all due respect to Ray sensei, I am fairly certain that within the context of Zen Ken Ren Iai, that is not the definition of Saya Banare. Maybe MJER simply uses the words differently.

If you do a google engine search on "saya banare", you'd see what I mean.

I got the words "saya-banare" right out of this book:

http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page16.html

I122 New Edition Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei Iai
$25.00
New Edition Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei Iai.
Edited by Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei Iai
Japanese language Click here to see the Index translation

Also, the same words are used as points to observe in the shinza guidelines for taking iaido rank tests in the AUSKF.

You can also find the same nomenclature in the Seitei Iai videos release by the AJKF

Stroud sensei has kindly translated them into English for us and put in on the flyer for the last AUSKF seminar, but I seemed to have misplaced the link.

Does anyone have the link?

:D

DCPan
31st January 2003, 18:31
Dosa

"...2"saya-banare" mae ni ha o sui-hei ni shite..."

Footnote:

2. saya-banare = kiri-sen ga saya no koiguchi kara banareru koto.

Charles Mahan
31st January 2003, 18:44
Originally posted by ulvulv


I intend both. If I would not give him the chance to back down, I would not draw with jo-ha-kyu, I would fling out my sword as fast as possible, at the moment I sensed danger. When I give him the chance to back down, it is trough showing him my overall intent of passing him on to a higher dojo if he do not behave. But how i will cut him, I will not give away before its too late. For him.

An interesting take. I disagree with it personally, but respect your right to follow that line of thinking.

Disclaimer:
Once again where getting into the realm of my own interpretations and views here. This is the state of my own iai and does not necessarily reflect the views of my instructor or anyone else for that matter.

I draw with Jo-ha-kyu because jo and ha give me a chance to determine what I will be doing during kyu. In kata of course, the kyu is always the same, but the decision has to be made anyway. If two people are facing each other and one uses jo-ha-kyu timing and the other "flings out his sword as fast as possible", the one with jo-ha-kyu and reasonably good tactical skills is going to win. The person who flings out his sword as fast as possible is telegraphing his move rather dramatically. This gives the jo-ha-kyu person a chance to make a decision to block if necessary or take advantage of an opening in his opponents technique to strike. It also makes simple evasion somewhat easier. The person flinging his sword out as fast as possible is going to have to decide before the draw ever begins what his target is going to be, and he is going to be locked into it because he will be going to fast to change his mind.

Iai is not now, nor was it ever about pure speed in the draw. It is not truly a "quickdraw" art. It is first and foremost about accuracy. A fast draw will not do you any good if you fail to strike your target and he cuts you down. So you can only ever draw as fast as you can be accurate. Besides without proper timing technique tends to fall apart and cuts become meaningless as the emphasis shifts to speed and away from such things as maai, seme, hasuji, etc.

That is not to say that Iai, done well, is not fast. The kyu should be positively explosive, but it should only come at the very end of the draw.

Or at least that is my current understanding of the subject. I have certainly never been taught that giving your opponent to back down is ever an acceptable interpretation.

Charles Mahan
31st January 2003, 18:46
David, I don't doubt you. Just noting that we do not use the term in the same way.

Charles Mahan
31st January 2003, 21:06
It seems I heard wrong. John just sent me an e-mail. You were correct about saya-banare. He describes it as the moment the tip leaves the saya.

I gotta think about putting a disclaimer in my sig...

ulvulv
3rd February 2003, 13:11
quote
I draw with Jo-ha-kyu because jo and ha give me a chance to determine what I will be doing during kyu. In kata of course, the kyu is always the same, but the decision has to be made anyway. If two people are facing each other and one uses jo-ha-kyu timing and the other "flings out his sword as fast as possible", the one with jo-ha-kyu and reasonably good tactical skills is going to win. The person who flings out his sword as fast as possible is telegraphing his move rather dramatically. This gives the jo-ha-kyu person a chance to make a decision to block if necessary or take advantage of an opening in his opponents technique to strike. It also makes simple evasion somewhat easier. The person flinging his sword out as fast as possible is going to have to decide before the draw ever begins what his target is going to be, and he is going to be locked into it because he will be going to fast to change his mind.

I agree with this, and I appreciate your new term for iaidoka:
"jo-ha-kyu person":D

I also consider johakyu a necessary preparation, where I build up seme, balance and precision, like aiming with a gun, squeezing the trigger until BANG, saya banare and cut.

quote
Or at least that is my current understanding of the subject. I have certainly never been taught that giving your opponent to back down is ever an acceptable interpretation.


hmm
Of course there is a didactic core in iai, a moment in every kata where you give the opponent a choice of life and death.
It is his fault that he always choose death to life.
Maybe there should have been a kata where tekki flees in the middle of the draw, so you just sink back in seiza and slide your tool back in? ;) Anyone have a good name for that kata? Mu-Giri?

Charles Mahan
3rd February 2003, 15:07
Originally posted by ulvulv

hmm
Of course there is a didactic core in iai, a moment in every kata where you give the opponent a choice of life and death.
It is his fault that he always choose death to life.
Maybe there should have been a kata where tekki flees in the middle of the draw, so you just sink back in seiza and slide your tool back in? ;) Anyone have a good name for that kata? Mu-Giri?

The only part where I disagree is that the chance for tekki to flee is before the draw begins. This is a matter of attitude more than anything. When you draw you do so with the intention of cutting down your enemy. The draw is not the preliminary to the first cut, it is the first cut, as such it should be treated like any other cut. I would not do kirioroshi with the thought that I might have to pull the cut up short so as not to injure an opponent who has decided to flee. I would begin the cut with every intention of cutting him down and carry through until it is done. The first strike in Iaido is no different.

Remember the other guy has one of these 30 inch razor blades too, and he wants to kill you with it. Allowing him to flee to a safe distance and then approach you again now that both of you have your swords drawn is less than ideal. You give up the advantage you had during the draw. Worse he may run for reenforcements.

It is a difference in interpretation I suppose.

And we do have a kata in Seiza no bu where tekki decides that fleeing, or at least backing up quickly, is a good idea. It's in number 9. Your rise out of seiza and strike out at both of tekki's arms as he comes in to give you a kirioroshi. Then you push him off and he essentially flees, or at least tries to back up and regroup. In the kata, you follow and cut him down with a kirioroshi of your own. You don't let him run.

Charles Mahan
4th February 2003, 02:15
I've checked with Ray-sensei and he pretty much agrees with me. He's never heard of the concept of allowing your opponent to retreat once you have begun a draw. Once the draw has begun you are committed to the attack.

Chidokan
8th February 2003, 16:41
I tend to agree with Charles,it's the "I've started so I'll finish" routine. In fact later on in the MJER syllabus it's me who is trying to get the jump on the other guy!:D Only chance he's got is to leave me alone in the first place...
I dont care where he's cut either, so long as he's hit and is going down...that way I don't get hit!

Tim Hamilton

DCPan
10th February 2003, 19:21
Originally posted by Charles Mahan
Once the draw has begun you are committed to the attack.

Okay :D

Question.

I was under the understanding the you are committed to the draw/attack, but you are not committed to a target until saya banare.

Thus, the target is dependent on what the opponent does or does not do.

If the opponent chose "flee" as the option, do you cut him down from his back? Or do you choose not to cut him because he fled?

Scott Irey
10th February 2003, 20:26
If your opponent has the oppurtunity to flee before you are able to strike him....well I would have to say your iai is not very good. Or as one of my teachers put it to me when I asked the "what if" question: "If your opponent has time to flee, then he had time to attack before you drew, and that is not very good iai on your part."

And as for striking him down as he flees (if you telgraphed so badly that he has that option) by all means strike him down on the run. I don't think it would be very good iai to let him run off and grab a few friends so he can come back and overwhelm you with superior numbers, as a matter of fact that might borderline on "crappy" iai.

DCPan
10th February 2003, 20:45
Hi Scott,

Good thing I don't have to use iai for real huh? :D

Thanks for the clarification, but now I'm even more confused.

If the object is to cut the guy down plain and simple once you are committed to the draw, what then is the point of jo-ha-kyu? Why not just whip the thing out as fast as you can and cut him down?

DCPan
10th February 2003, 20:49
Originally posted by Scott Irey
If your opponent has the oppurtunity to flee before you are able to strike him....

Well, then, take MAE/Shohatto for example.

At what point in the kata do you DECIDE where to cut? Did you decide where you are going to cut before saya banare? Before koiguchi-kiri?

Thanks! :D

Charles Mahan
10th February 2003, 21:13
Originally posted by DCPan

If the object is to cut the guy down plain and simple once you are committed to the draw, what then is the point of jo-ha-kyu? Why not just whip the thing out as fast as you can and cut him down?

For the same reasons I already listed above. If you just "whip the thing out as fast as you can" then you telegraph your attack badly. He sees it coming reacts to redirect your attack and then cuts you down.

The point of Johakyu is not to give you the option to strike or not strike, the point is to buy you the time to choose where you are going to strike. Also as someone else pointed out above, it's like taking the time to aim when you draw a gun. Sure stopping to aim takes an extra split second, but it could mean the difference between life and death.

Charles Mahan
10th February 2003, 21:21
Originally posted by DCPan


Well, then, take MAE/Shohatto for example.

At what point in the kata do you DECIDE where to cut? Did you decide where you are going to cut before saya banare? Before koiguchi-kiri?

Thanks! :D

Scott is better qualified to answer this than I but I'll take a stab. The decision to use a horizontal cut comes just before you free the kissaki. Your other possible decisions were to cut one handed kesa-giri, cut a reverse one handed kesa, draw straight to seigan and then tsuki, or even ukenagashi followed by kirioroshi. There are lots of options, but if you just "whip it out" you lose that decision point and probably cut very poorly to boot.

Charles Mahan

Scott Irey
10th February 2003, 21:49
Originally posted by DCPan

If the object is to cut the guy down plain and simple once you are committed to the draw, what then is the point of jo-ha-kyu? Why not just whip the thing out as fast as you can and cut him down?

Hi David. Quite simply put "jo-ha-kyu" is the action (or series of actions depending on how you look at it) that allows you to develope the skills needed to: 1) draw the weapon safely 2) draw the weapon while simulataneously aquiring your target 3) draw the weapon in a fashion that sets you up best for the explosive action of nukitsuke. Jo-ha-kyu is relativve to ability. A very good practitioner should be able to seemingly "whip" the sword out while not sacrificing the three skills (although there is more to it than the simple explanation I outline above) that jo-ha-kyu developes. Start trying to "whip it out" before you have developed the needed skills to perform it correctly and well...if you are using a shinken you can look forward to learning the first names of emergency room staff and getting Christmas cards from reconstructive surgeons. If you are using an iaito you can look forward to getting a price quote from me on rebuilding your saya :)

We have all the time in the world to develope these skills, one of the great advantages of practicing an "outdated art that no longer has any practical value in the modern martial arena" ( did I say that? must have been somebody from a JUTSU form chanelling through me :) ) Being able to seemingly "whip" the sword out is a by-product of good slow repetative training for most of us. That being said keep focusing on the jo-ha-kyu and someday you too can "whip it out"
;)

Scott Irey
10th February 2003, 22:02
Originally posted by DCPan


Well, then, take MAE/Shohatto for example.

At what point in the kata do you DECIDE where to cut? Did you decide where you are going to cut before saya banare? Before koiguchi-kiri?

Thanks! :D

Uh oh David, now you are asking for inner teachings of the style...are you ready to show up in class next week and take keppan? ;)

Scott Irey
10th February 2003, 22:07
Originally posted by Charles Mahan


Scott is better qualified to answer this than I but I'll take a stab.

Careful there Charles...if you keep building me up as somebody who knows something you are going to get both of us in trouble. Me because somebody is going to show up on my stoop looking for a match and you because if that happens...well...because if somebody shows up on my stoop and clobbers me...well lets jsut say I bonded with your chihuahua last November and if I tell here to take out your achilles tendon and go for the throat when you collapse I am pretty confident she will obey. ;)

Charles Mahan
10th February 2003, 22:10
What Scott said :) He put it far better than I could.

Charles Mahan
10th February 2003, 22:13
Originally posted by Scott Irey


Careful there Charles...if you keep building me up as somebody who knows something you are going to get both of us in trouble. Me because somebody is going to show up on my stoop looking for a match and you because if that happens...well...because if somebody shows up on my stoop and clobbers me...well lets jsut say I bonded with your chihuahua last November and if I tell here to take out your achilles tendon and go for the throat when you collapse I am pretty confident she will obey. ;)

Uh oh... I take it all back. Scott is an uneducated bafoon. Is that better?

My wife says you best behave or no more hot sauce.

Scott Irey
10th February 2003, 22:18
Uh...tell your wife it was all a bad joke on the part of an un-edumacated-bufoooon...especially if it means my hot-sauce fix is in danger...

Scott Irey
"just another MJER guy jonesing for his next hit of the only real hot-sauce in Texas"

pgsmith
10th February 2003, 22:18
Hi Guys,
That was a very good explanation Scott! Speaking of saya rebuilding (I can actually use one!) are you going to be bringing any goodies to the SA Sword Show since Rick won't be able to make it?
On a different note, although I have very little MJER experience (only a couple seminars) I was under the impression that the decision on where to cut in the kata was already made for you? Do you actually vary the kata by altering the target area?
Just curious,

Scott Irey
10th February 2003, 22:21
Originally posted by pgsmith
On a different note, although I have very little MJER experience (only a couple seminars) I was under the impression that the decision on where to cut in the kata was already made for you? Do you actually vary the kata by altering the target area?

Sheesh...everybody wants the secrets with out the hard-work...a symptom of our fast-food society I guess :)

I won't be bringing anything with me this time Paul (I am not attending as a merchant this time) but I can take a look at your saya for you.

DCPan
10th February 2003, 22:24
Originally posted by Scott Irey
Or as one of my teachers put it to me when I asked the "what if" question: "If your opponent has time to flee, then he had time to attack before you drew, and that is not very good iai on your part."


Okay, I'm going to be asking some more "stupid" questions and show my ignorance, so bear with me here :) Since you gave me the opening to ask these questions, I'm gonna capitalize on it :P

Just because the opponent have the "time" to attack doesn't mean he has an "opening" to attack does he?

Isn't that the whole point of the "seme" by knowing where your tsuka-gashira is going and all that?

Can't say much about iaido, but in kendo, it seems like most of the old-timers make you commit to doing something stupid, then whack you as an object lesson. So, go-no-sen is mostly at play here as the old-timers don't attack until their opponent are mentally or physically committed to the attack.

So, my initial conception of iai was that I would draw and SEME up until the saya banare/decision point. So, up until the decision point, time and speed really isn't as much an issue as whether you've maintain control of the center line and applied seme to force him to do something stupid.

Heck, if I'm wrong, it's back to square one...nothing like shoshin to put one in one's place huh?

I simply don't understand why one can't maintain control of personal space, have the other hand, and still allow the person to flee...granted, the idea of him coming back with reinforcements ain't fun.

I would be committed to the draw if I feel/know the opponent is committed to the attack...I'm just not assuming the opponent is committed to the attack when I am initially drawing the sword.

Maybe it's a "kasso teki" thing? :D

Thanks for sharing your inner secrets :D

BTW, as to the keppan, as best put by a koryu practitioner I know, if you can't see into the heart of your students, what have you been practicing....

Lastly, how much is that Hijikata anyway, Scott?

More than a mouthful....

:D

Charles Mahan
10th February 2003, 22:43
It seems to me that the discussion is shifting into stylistic differences. I think it all boils down to something like this, your enemy means to do you harm with a 30" razor blade. You have decided that you must draw your sword to prevent/preempt that action. Once your opponent has taken it into his mind to end your life, you should not give him the oppurtunity to back off and possibly reenter the fight under better conditions. Once the fight has begun and both of your lives are on the line, you must end it before he does. Plain and simple. Anything else is dangerous.

Like I said it sounds like a fundamental difference in stylistic philosophies.

DCPan
10th February 2003, 22:54
Originally posted by Charles Mahan

Like I said it sounds like a fundamental difference in stylistic philosophies.

:smash: What about katsujinken? :D

Now that's a can of worms :p

Scott Irey
10th February 2003, 23:11
Just because the opponent have the "time" to attack doesn't mean he has an "opening" to attack does he?

Isn't that the whole point of the "seme" by knowing where your tsuka-gashira is going and all that?

Sort of answered that one all by yourself didn't you David? :)

But I tell you what, in regards to the rest of your post, you and Derreck get some golf club sheathes to use as saya for your bokuto. Then sit "acrost" (native Washingotnian slipping out) from each other in seiza. YOU are going to perform Shohato in "response" to Derrek's attack (a horizontal draw to your shoulder). Do it correctly and don't get sloppy and by all means don't hurt each other. Then we can discuss what you learned.


BTW, as to the keppan, as best put by a koryu practitioner I know, if you can't see into the heart of your students, what have you been practicing....

Lastly, how much is that Hijikata anyway, Scott?

Like they say "If you can't dazzle them with briliance, baffle them with BS" ;)

I have no idea on the "Hijikata" I don't deal with Nosyuaido directly and likewise have found their web-site is down. I do work as a rep for Swordstore.com and if you let me know what furniture was on the sword you saw, then I could get a quote.

Charles Mahan
10th February 2003, 23:12
Originally posted by DCPan


:smash: What about katsujinken? :D


Now that's a can of worms :p

What about it? ;)

DCPan
11th February 2003, 00:10
Originally posted by Scott Irey

Sort of answered that one all by yourself didn't you David? :)


Well, was just getting at the supporting evidence of the "crappy" iai comment :D


Originally posted by Scott Irey

But I tell you what, in regards to the rest of your post...


Fair enough :D A lot of my rambling is actually generated from not being able to practice. I'm starting a NEW job in two weeks. Going to be moving too...having a wife that's planning to evict all my budo equipment ain't helping either :eek: :eek:

Care to show me the OKUDEN WAZA of "How to get the wife to let you practice more?" :D


Originally posted by Scott Irey

Like they say "If you can't dazzle them with briliance, baffle them with BS" ;)

What furniture was on the sword you saw, then I could get a quote. [/B]

Besides, with all the stuff you can catch from bodily fluids nowadays, Keppan is among one of the dumbest things you can do! :D

Lastly, I haven't seen similar furniture offered from the swordstore.com website...hence the question.

Considering that the replica Hijikata has a kakinagashi-hi though, I'm guessing it'd be in the "shinken-saku" price range, if not more, for being a historic replica.

For me, it's really the tsuba and the fuchi/gashira/kojiri...I could do without the beautiful birds in the saya lacquer. Also, red isn't my favorite color...a deep green tsukamaki is more to my liking.

I guess my quest for an iaito will end until I finally get one with kakinagashi-hi.

Thanks again! :D

pgsmith
11th February 2003, 15:54
Hi Scott,
Wasn't probing for secrets, just throwing out a little tongue in cheek. As far as the saya, thanks for the offer but there isn't really anything can be done for it. I just plain need a new one. I accidentally put a good split in it showing a newbie why you need to be very careful to clear the saya before beginning the cut in nukitsuke. (duh!) I repaired it, but I really need to talk to Rick about a new saya. See you in San Antonio!

Hi David,

Care to show me the OKUDEN WAZA of "How to get the wife to let you practice more?"
I will pass on my secret technique for this! Get her around your training partners as much as possible so they become friends. Since most JSA practitioners (not all, but the vast majority!) are really good people, she'll enjoy their company, and then she'll want to go to all the events and seminars you can afford to go to. It's worked well for me! Although she doesn't practice sword arts, I'm pretty sure that my wife Sherry is known by, and friends with, more people in the arts than I am. I call her an 'official sword groupie'!

Cheers,

Chidokan
11th February 2003, 23:12
problem with taking the other half is that after so long she can predict what grades people are going to get after watching them for so long....now that is scary:eek: sort of a weird armchair spectator...but at least I'm going training on Valentines day, when most of you lot daren't even suggest it!:D :D :D :D

Tim Hamilton

DCPan
11th February 2003, 23:27
Originally posted by Chidokan
problem with taking the other half is that after so long she can predict what grades people are going to get after watching them for so long....now that is scary:eek: sort of a weird armchair spectator...but at least I'm going training on Valentines day, when most of you lot daren't even suggest it!:D :D :D :D

Tim Hamilton

Last time I watched a ZNKR Iai video with my wife, she started added sound effects in addition to the totallly dreadful canned sounds they already added to the kiri-o-roshi...boy was I traumatized...had to work for a while to get those sounds effects out of my head...you really should have been there....


:saw: :D :D :D

DCPan
12th February 2003, 01:16
Originally posted by Chidokan
at least I'm going training on Valentines day, when most of you lot daren't even suggest it!:D :D :D :D

Tim Hamilton

Now that's a gaunlet hurled if I ever saw a challenge...or was that a thrown kote? :D

Seriously though, the only two videos related to budo that she liked was Ame Agaru and the documentary Kendo's Gruelling Challenge, which is about two kenshis trying out for hachi-dan.

:D

ulvulv
12th February 2003, 11:23
Is it not better to open the can of worms than bringing our wifes into the discussion? You guys lost zanshin as soon the subject of women entered :D

Okuden of kendo?

http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~shimano/doujo/eng/okuden_e.htmldo?

DCPan
12th February 2003, 17:00
Originally posted by ulvulv
Is it not better to open the can of worms than bringing our wifes into the discussion? You guys lost zanshin as soon the subject of women entered :D

Okuden of kendo?

http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~shimano/doujo/eng/okuden_e.htmldo?

The link doesn't work :D Now, about zanshin??? :eek:

Also, haven't you heard? I can't remember which kurosawa film it was, but in one film, some along the lines of this was said,

"He's like a sharp sword uncontained. What he needs is a good woman to serve as a saya to keep him outta trouble..."

Name that film!

Charles Mahan
12th February 2003, 17:26
Take the "do?" off the end of the link and it works fine.

http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~shimano/doujo/eng/okuden_e.html