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johan_frendin
29th January 2003, 19:17
Hello!

I was watching the Toronto website and saw a picture from the 2002 Toronto Gasshuku. I was a little bit surprised that the picture showed almost only old (over 25) people participating at the gasshuku.

Why do branches in USA and Canada seem to focus only on teaching “old” people?


Johan Frendin

Gary Dolce
30th January 2003, 15:44
Johan,

Gassho,

First, I strongly disagree with your characterization of over 25 as "old". I am almost 46 and don't feel old. The practice of Shorinji Kempo is a lifelong activity and I see the fact that a lot of mature people want to continue to practice as a very good sign.

Second, I wouldn't assume too much from looking at a few photos from a gasshuku. Consider that distances between Branches are much farther here than in Europe. In the case of the Toronto gasshuku, the nearest Branches were 4-5 hours away by car. Most were much farther away. As a result many of the participants traveled at substantial expense both in money and time. Given those circumstances, I think there is some self-selection for older kenshi who can better afford the travel. This is unfortunate, but is a fact of life that we can't easily change.

Third, while some Branches in the US and Canada do have children's classes, many of us have chosen for one reason or another to focus on adults. In my own case, between work and family commitments I currently don't have the time or interest to add additional classes for children. That may change in the future, but for now I will focus on doing the best job I can teaching the students I have (who range in age from 18 to 51).

Finally, until you have direct experience with Branches in the US and Canada, I would refrain from making generalizations about them. It is impossible to tell from a few pictures what we "focus" on. Of course, you would be welcome to visit our Branch if you are ever in the US and want to get a better understanding about our practice.

Gary

johan_frendin
30th January 2003, 21:12
Gassho,

First, this question was not meant to offend US and Canada branches. But it was an open-hearted question why so many “old” people seems to practice in these countries.

I personally want to have more youth in Shorinjikempo in the western countries. Here in Visby branch in Sweden the students are between 14-20 and that is great. The youth are more easily influenced by the idea of Shorinjikempo than an 35 year old adult. There is absolutely not wrong to teach “old” people but the focus must be on the youth. We must not forget that trying to attract the youth by teaching Shorinjikempo was the main idea that Kaiso had in 1947.

I have watched this forum for the last month reading about questions like:
Is Shorinjikempo a religion?, Should we try to become Buddha?, Speaking of the Buddha! and I think it is all crap. If discussions like this goes on regularly in the branches in western countries I can easily understand why no youth ever comes. Instead we will have people searching for the secrets in life, trying to find their astralbody, try to balance their chakras or some other mumbo jumbo. And I am absolutely sure that the youth will only come ones and never return.

We in Shorinjikempo must ask ourselves the same questions that Kaiso also had 1945: HOW DO WE ATTRACT THE YOUTH TO COME TO OUR DOJO??????

Johan Frendin

tony leith
31st January 2003, 13:26
'I have watched this forum for the last month reading about questions like:
Is Shorinjikempo a religion?, Should we try to become Buddha?, Speaking of the Buddha! and I think it is all crap.'

Well, of course, Johan, you're entitled to your opinion, However, given that it was Kaiso's intention to found ' a revitalised philosophical martial art', talking about these issues here seems fine to me. If you're not interested, fair enough, but your reasoning to put it mildly is flawed. You proceed from the statement that people are discussion issues that you are personally not interested in to an assumption that this is why Kempo can't attract the young. This isn't an argument, it's an assertion, and as far as I can see based on some photographs of one training event in North America rather than any real evidence.

I train and help teach at the Glasgow University dojo in Scotland. This is where I started training, and although I am now 33, I started when I might almost have counted as a youth by your narrow definition (22). The hints that there was a deeper philosophical dimension was a large part of what attracted me to Kempo, gratifying as the punching, kicking and being thrown about might have been. We have upwards of thirty forty people training regularly at our club, most of them in their late teens/ early twenties. They don't seem to be put off by the philosophy.

I would suggest that while our techniques and training will certainly attract the young, so will treating them like the fully realised human beings they have the potential to be, and not assuming they have no interest in the philosophical elements of kempo practice.

Tony leith

Gary Dolce
31st January 2003, 19:10
Johan,

Gassho,

No, I was not offended by your question - only surprised that you could conclude so much from so little evidence.

I am sincerely glad that you are happy and successful teaching a group of 14-20 year olds. I don't understand why you are critical of people who don't teach groups exactly like yours. Kaiso did put a lot of emphasis on teaching youth. But he also said "the person, the person, the person, it all depends on the person". I don't think he meant to exclude any age group in that statement, nor do I interpret his emphasis on teaching youth as a mandate that we must solely focus on.

I started Shorinji Kempo at the age of 24 (just before old age set in :)). In the past 22 years, Shorinji Kempo has had a profound influence in the way I think and act. Many of the adult members in my Branch feel the same way. Just because we are adults does not mean that Shorinji Kempo can no longer have a positive influence on us.

As for your contention that discussions of Buddhism are "crap" that scare off younger members, you are entitled to your view. But if the adults in my Branch want to have adult conversations about such subjects, I really don't worry what younger members might think. Buddhist philosophy is at the core of what we do. In my view, ignoring that philosophy (or watering it down to mere platitudes) misses the point of practice.

Gary

Tripitaka of AA
31st January 2003, 19:42
I started Kempo when I was 19. The philosophy was definitely something that interested me then... and now too, or so it seems (I think I started or contributed to all the threads that Johan referred to :eek: ).

Whether they are "crap" or not, well that depends on the contributions and the reader... "It is all about the people!".

If memory serves (please correct me if I'm wrong), Johan has a strong desire to attract the younger members of society to Shorinji Kempo, with the strong desire to follow Kaiso's example. In that regard he is not alone, but does appear overly concerned that too much philosophical "mumbo-jumbo" or the less physical side of Shorinji Kempo may make it unattractive to the kind of young people that are most in need of "guidance on the right path". If he feels that this kind of discussion would drive them all from the Dojo screaming, then perhaps he will wish to avoid all/any/some of the Howa subjects that Kaiso included as part of the study of Shorinji Kempo. A dangerous path to walk, I feel.

But Johan, don't be misled into thinking that because we talk on these boards about "crap", we spend all the training sessions doing the same. It is just a bit tricky to do E-Kihon or E-Randori (unless your name is Tony Kehoe :D ).

Enigma
1st February 2003, 04:25
I have been training in Shorinji Kempo for a few months, not very long at all. And being 20 years old, I think that I'm your target audience Johan.

My view is my opinion, my own personal thoughts, so don't take it as being the thought of all youth. The philosophy and the non-physical aspects of Shorinji Kempo had a great deal of influence on me joining my local branch. ALthough i haven't been training for long, I am still extremely interested in this side of Shorinji Kempo.

Before researching different martial arts to undertake, I knew nothing of Shorinji Kempo. There are many many martial arts out there that teach punching, kicking, throwing, etc. But what really got me hooked was the balance of techniques and philosophy that Shorinji Kempo provides.

So as a 20 year old youth, I am keen to run towards training, not from it.

johan_frendin
1st February 2003, 07:08
Hello!

First I would like to say that I am straightforward as a person and sometimes people get the wrong idea that I am aggressive or challenging towards them but this is never my intention.

Shorinjikempo has been around in the west for over 30 years know and most of the students still are oldies and I think we need to make widen our perspective and try to attract more youth. It is absolutely no wrong to focus an “old” people. I have no doubt that you Gary, Tony or others make a great job working with what I call “old” people. But the youth is the future and therefore we need to open up the “dojo” for them also.
During my 19 years in Shorinjikempo I met a lot of people that been experts in theoretical philosophy but very few that is burning with a true commitment to act in society. Me myself have been one of the worst teaching theoretical philosophy, giving student hard critics on gakka subjects in order to make them reach “high score” at grading exams. But when I am looking back at my 12 years as an instructor I think that my focus instead should have been on trying to make people act in society rather than encourage people to get high score at grading exams. During the last years as a teacher I have totally change my attitude towards Shorinjikempo. I believe that the philosophy should not only be talked and discussed but acted out in society. We must learn our students to use the philosophy of kongo zen in reality rather than making them discuss if Shorinjikempo is a religion or not. In the future we must focus more on the youth because in them you will find commitment and will to act.

I am very interested in philosophy but Buddhism (religious) discussions are to be avoided because they are so easily misunderstood by us western people and in this way they are more or less “meaningless”. I believe they only benefits those people who is interested in religious and philosophical theory not those people who is interested in action. Shorinjikempo is loaded with good philosophy to guide your students with but we must not overload our student with ideas that is made for Japanese people and not Americans or Swedish people.

When we talking about teaching the youth some stated that I should cut the philosophy teaching but this is not true. Instead of teaching by monologue from the teacher (useless to youth in Sweden anyway) you can have personal chats, discussion groups but the most important thing is to practice the philosophy in the dojo. As we all know Shorinjikempo is learning by doing. But I am sad to say that sometimes even hombu teach Shorinjikempo learning by doing “dead wrong” in my opinion. But that is another case.

Best regards

Johan Frendin

PRehse
1st February 2003, 07:40
In the town where I live the Shorinji Kempo brigade is dominated by 12-15 year old girls and I think only the instructor is older than 20.

Don't loose heart - the youth is out there.

Tripitaka of AA
1st February 2003, 11:36
It is easy to take umbrage at some of Johan's statements, seeing them as undeserved criticism of other branches, or as seeking to diverge from the WSKO interpretation of Kaiso's aims. I know only what I have read. But there is obviously some truth in his words, which we can all appreciate.

I trust people will grant Johan the benefit if the doubt when reading some of the more blunt statements in his post, English is not, I gather, his mother tongue.

Johan will also appreciate that there are young Kenshi practising in classes all over the world, in Dojo where the teachers are happily following the WSKO recommended formula. Johan seems to feel that Swedish youngsters are just "not the same" as Japanese, American, British or other youngsters. Well of course in many ways they are not, but I feel I'm not alone in believing that the appeal of Shorinji Kempo training has universal application.

I'm also sure that Johan would like to think that the "young" Kenshi in his classes will still be practising when they become old, bald and sagging like the rest of us ;) . Perhaps this is the case in the various photographs that he may have seen of other people's classes.


So you see there is plenty of common ground here, isn't there?


I must say though, he seems to make the assumption that young people won't get philosophy. Or that the young people who really need the benefits of Kempo, will be put off by Howa. I just don't agree with this assumption.

Gary Dolce
2nd February 2003, 02:39
Johan,

Gassho,

I am sorry if my response to your straight-forward approach was a little too sharp. It is all too easy in e-mail conversations to misunderstand intent and I think I misunderstood yours.

Actually I agree very strongly with one point in your last message. The most important thing is not what we say about our philosophy - it's what we do. When I first started Shorinji Kempo, we did formal howa on an irregular and sometimes infrequent basis. But the tenets of Kongo Zen were obvious in the way my teachers taught and the way we practiced. It is easy to talk about philosophy, but much harder to actually put it in practice - whether in the confines of the dojo or in the larger world.

Gary

BigJon
2nd February 2003, 07:53
Hi everyone! I have "played" with a shorinji kempo stylist before, and to my pleasure, the man in question taught me more about wristlocks/standing submission than I could have hoped for, And to the "old people" reference regarding the practitioners...I can only say one thing. I would be very suspicious of a twenty something instructor/soke/grand poobah/etc. (as always.) in any art.
There is/are reasons why the best instructors for ANY fighting style, are old....





Jon Gillespie

johan_frendin
2nd February 2003, 12:57
Hello!

We are all following Shorinjikempo WSKO recommended formula but with slightly different approach.

If a 15 year old boy ask me what Shorinjikempo is I tell him that it is effective self –defence. In this way I can make him come to our dojo. When he starts practice in our dojo he maybe has very little or no interest at all in kongo zen but that is fine with me. When the practice starts I will drill him in endless pair practice of co-operative action/thinking. In this way I make him to ”act” the Shorinjikempo way but he has no clue at all.:D

If his mother call me and ask what Shorinjikempo is I will not give her the exact same answer I gave her son. To her I will explain the Shorinjikempo idea and the purpose of our practice and what benefits her son will get by practice in our club. But I will never, ever say that Shorinjikempo can be thought of as a religion. If I do she take her son out of practice immediately because she think that shorinjikempo is a secret sect that will brainwash her son.:D

When the 15 year old boy have been practising for a couple of years he will slowly get an idea what Shorinjikempo is all about. And I will introduce more and more philosophy to him. And maybe after many years of practice he may understand that Shorinjikempo can be thought of as a religion.

Christian Tissier 7 dan in Aikido ones said like this in an interview: When I tell a beginner that Aikido is a way to harmonise yourself with the universe he will laugh right in my face and think I am crazy. But if that same beginner practice 20 years no explanation is needed.

Sounds like good Shorinjikempo philosophy to me.

Johan Frendin

Tripitaka of AA
3rd February 2003, 06:50
Thanks Johan, now I understand you.

I will still be posting on E-Budo about the philosophy questions that I have. I think it is the right place to do so. I accept that you want the best for your students and "living right" is better than "talking right".

Your description above, would fit in quite closely with the way I remember the Juniors Class where I trained (5 to 15-ish). The adults class would differ. I was very pleased to learn that some of the children from the Junior Classes that I helped to teach (so many years ago) are still training, and are now instructors. I don't know how or when they made the transition to the Adult classes. Perhaps there may be some E-Budo members who have made that journey, and could enlighten us.

I also remember a number of parents who took the time and effort to join the Adults Class for themselves, in order to find out what it as all about. I don't remember hearing about any parents running from the building screaming "cult, cult, CULT!!!" :eek:. But I understand your point.

Finally, I must admit that I hadn't noticed your credentials on the first post, and I jumped in with responses that I would not have done if I knew how long you had been studying and teaching Shorinji Kempo. You have obviously travelled the road a great deal more than I, and your views are worth more than my casual observations. Thanks for taking the criticism with such good grace. You could have pulled rank on me, with good reason, but chose not to.

Arigato gozaimashita

jonboy
3rd February 2003, 11:29
I would be very suspicious of a twenty something instructor/soke/grand poobah/etc. (as always.) in any art. There is/are reasons why the best instructors for ANY fighting style, are old....

Well, what can I say? Be suspicious maybe, but don't dismiss the possibility before you have at the very least spoken to the instructor/instructors.

I am now a shodan and both my instructors were twenty something when I started (and one still is). They have never pretended to know it all or to be the source of all knowledge. In fact, they are both pretty humble and are very willing to admit that they don't know all the answers, but they do go away and try to find out from someone more senior than themselves. I believe that being honest about your ability is one of the keys to being a good instructor NO MATTER how old you are.

The beauty of SK is that it can be very structured so in theory you could teach the belt grade below once you have achieved the next belt. Obviously it doesn't work quite as simply as this, but it does mean that you don't have to have been studying for 20 yrs before you have the skills to start teaching.

tony leith
3rd February 2003, 14:52
I found the further posts on this more revealing of Johan's point of view in particular, and don't reallly see much that I actually disagree with in what he said.

Again, I have to bear in mind that most of my experience both teaching in training has been in university cliubs, and established ones at that, where there is a preexisting 'culture' of Shorinji Kempo training. The relevant approach to Univeristy students is probably quite different from that teaching 14 or 15 year olds. The reason I'm quite keen on our students getting regular exposure to the philosophy is so they can actually consciously think about what they're doing and what they're assimilating from the training. There is an element of behavioural conditioning in Kempo training, which I personally am more ethically comfortable with if it's made fairly explciit so people can make their own choice about it. I'm perfectly willing to admit that this might not be the best approach in evry context.

I also agree with jonboy's post about the structure of Kempo training meaning that people have something useful to contribute as teachers from quite an early stage - I certainly hope this is true, because I've only beeen training for about twelve years and teaching in various capacities for about ten (!).

Tony leith

jonboy
3rd February 2003, 15:13
I also agree with Johan's point of view to a large extent. But in asking where the youth is I do not believe it is greatly to do with the philosophy of SK, but with individual instructors decisions on whom they choose to teach.

As an example, I train at a university club and I would quite happily take parts of or even whole sessions if asked. This would generally be teaching people, say +/- 5 yrs from my age. However, I believe at only 24, I do not have the skills and life experience to influence children in the right way. And with no real experience with children (being the youngest child in a family does not help) I do not think I would be capable of doing this for a long time.

I am just wondering if it is this feeling of extra responsibility over children that will cause the lack of clubs offering SK to a younger audience rather than a lack of younger people wishing to do SK?

laters

jon

Tripitaka of AA
4th February 2003, 11:17
Lots of reasons why certain age groups might be missing from the world of Shorinji Kempo in one location or another... not many under-15s go to University, not many Octagenarians hang out at the Sports Centres signing up for martial arts classes, etc.

The energy and commitment required from an Instructor about to open a Juniors Class cannot be overestimated. It is a huge responsibility and will take plenty of courage. It also takes up a big chunk of extra time that will usually be in the early evening or at Weekends. This can be particularly difficult to schedule (as all Shorinji Kempo instructors are real people with real lives to lead). It is not the self-perpetuating money-making exercise that some flourishing schools might appear. And Jon is quite right, the talent and ability to teach young children is not something that comes automatically with increasing rank.

Onno
5th February 2003, 23:49
Gassho __||__

Hello All.
Just a quick note from a Canadian branch.
Our adult class (old) has about 20-25 regular students.
Our kids class averages 50-60.

Need I say More?

Kesshu

Onno Kok
Alberta Shibu
Calgary Canada

johan_frendin
7th February 2003, 16:51
Hello!

Great that Calgary have 50-60 kids practicing!

Please tell us more how kids practice in Calgary?

Johan Frendin

Onno
7th February 2003, 17:56
Please tell us more how kids practice in Calgary?

Gassho __||__

The simple answer to that question is "LOUDLY".
Our kids class ranges in age from about 5-6 years old to junior high school age. After that they join in the adults class. We try to have as many instructors as we can to help control the kids. At least one insructor per belt level. Warm ups and basics are done together as a group, then they are divided by belt level for technique training & howa. At the end of class ( when the kids are a little worn out ;) ) there is time for Chinkon-gyo. During the warmer months we do some training outside. Towards the end of summer break there is a weeekend training camp for the kids as well.

I hope that answers your question.

Kesshu

Onno Kok
Alberta Shibu
Calgary,Canada

Onno
7th February 2003, 18:00
Gassho __||__

Sorry, I forgot to put a caption with the picture above. The picture is of Noda-sensei, the Alberta Branch-master, with some of the kids in the class. The photo was taken at a Christmas party, hence the microphone.

Kesshu

Onno Kok
Alberta Shibu
Calgary Canada

johan_frendin
7th February 2003, 18:45
Hello!

A short question. How old are the kids at junior high school?

Johan Frendin

Onno
9th February 2003, 05:50
A short question. How old are the kids at junior high school?

Gassho __||__

Between the ages of 12 and 14-15 or so. I have no kids so I am not sure exactly but around 12 when they start junior high.

Kesshu

Onno Kok
Alberta Shibu
Calgary Canada