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shadow42
30th January 2003, 22:57
Greetings,
Now as you read this, please keep in mind the following:
1. I am in no way doubting the combat effectiveness of Ninpo, if I did, I would go do something else
2. I am also a beginner, so the scope of my Ninpo knowledge is rather small, comparitively.
So, with that out of the way, my question is thus: When fighting, as in sparring, or actuall fighting,or what have you, how much of your fighting is taijutsu? Of course to some this prompts the secondary question of what isn't taijutsu, but I think many of you know what I mean. Now I know that real combat doesn't look like a form, but how much of your personal 'fighting style' is Ninpo Taijutsu? I hope this question came out as a comprehensible english paragraph, but if it is unclear to anyone please ask and I will attempt to clarify my rambling. Thank you.

kabutoki
30th January 2003, 23:42
hi !
as for me, it is not so much about visible forms but more about attitude. pretending to so something i actually dont or trying to lead my opponent to certain actions i want him to do.
since my taijutsu could be better, i think i loose the forms often...

karsten

Lee Mc'pherson
31st January 2003, 00:42
I agree it's more the attitude then anything else. Think along these lines you can find UCHIMATA in NINJUTSU,JUJUTSU,JUDO but the diference is that in NIN it is perfectly acceptible if not expected to headbut your opponent or even spit in his eyes as you break his balance so as to give you the edge where as the other two it is unthinkable to do such a thing. ALso look at the leg work in the same tecnique: ours is a kuma keri to the genitals to help you manipulate your opponent through leverage and pain where as again in the other two its outside of the thigh to the opponents inside of the thigh. So you see the attitude comes through in the forms it's just that when we train we can't realy do all this as there would be anybody healthy enough to train with. :D

Mark J. Speranza
31st January 2003, 01:47
Hi

It's crazy answers like this that give Ninpo a bad name. If you are fighting for your life, of course, anything is acceptable. BUT, this is not real technique nor is it real Ninpo. Tai-jutsu, which means strong body movement, is not spitting to accomplish a technique. It is the unifcation of mind and body. Those types of techniques, are used as an extra, not to make the unbalancing. If you cannot unbalance a resistive partner then spitting is not going to help and that is surely not Ninpo. Also in randori I have been kicked hard in the groin and it hurt but didn't bring me down.

tenchijin2
31st January 2003, 03:10
Well, since all of my training has been in Bujinkan martial arts, all of my randori and 'sparring' looks quite a bit like taijutsu... because it is.

I find the taisabaki and use of legs to make throws and locks to be quite natural and effective. In addition, taihenjutsu use of kamae and shape helps you 'fit in' to the spaces needed. This is independent of any 'tricks' (which are valid, but not reliable).

Oni
31st January 2003, 04:19
Hmm,

I use Taijutsu when I sweep/mop/vacuum/etc....

Parmenion
31st January 2003, 05:26
Originally posted by tenchijin2
Well, since all of my training has been in Bujinkan martial arts, all of my randori and 'sparring' looks quite a bit like taijutsu... because it is.

I find the taisabaki and use of legs to make throws and locks to be quite natural and effective. In addition, taihenjutsu use of kamae and shape helps you 'fit in' to the spaces needed. This is independent of any 'tricks' (which are valid, but not reliable).

I am not here to pick fights or make fu of your arts or anything, far from it .... but
taihen ւ means difficult doesnt it? A diffrent set of Kanji perhaps? Little help?

Kamiyama
31st January 2003, 06:25
taijutsu.......

shadow42

The word taijutsu can be found in all Japanese arts of body skills.
It does not mean "martial arts skills of self-protection" only. You have it in every form of motion, horsemanship, dance, flower, tea, martial arts, etc.. as Japanese use it. I believe this is what ONI is saying.

I believe you should ask this question again with a different question point.

kamiyama, ralph severe

Lee Mc'pherson
31st January 2003, 10:06
Hi

It's crazy answers like this that give Ninpo a bad name. If you are fighting for your life, of course, anything is acceptable. BUT, this is not real technique nor is it real Ninpo. Tai-jutsu, which means strong body movement, is not spitting to accomplish a technique. It is the unifcation of mind and body. Those types of techniques, are used as an extra, not to make the unbalancing. If you cannot unbalance a resistive partner then spitting is not going to help and that is surely not Ninpo. Also in randori I have been kicked hard in the groin and it hurt but didn't bring me down.


Hi let me clear up something about my answer. The question posted is about Ninpo and not taijutsu.I dont think that taijustu "Tai-jutsu, which means strong body movement" means that, I always had the impression that it tranlated into "the art of the body". Also I was not reffering to " a resistive partner " but to an opponent who is trying to hurt you in a real fight. Taijutsu is about 2/10 of the fight the other 7/10 are state of mind. And if you could please elaborate on "It's crazy answers like this that give Ninpo a bad name" I would be most thankfull because that would be the last thing i would want to do. But i realy can't see how my anwser is in any way crazy or that it gives Nin a bad name.
All coments are welcome though for as it was said in the past
" I may not agree with what you are saying but i will support your right to say it with my last breath."

Rokushakubo
31st January 2003, 14:14
Originally posted by Lee Mc'pherson
Taijutsu is about 2/10 of the fight the other 7/10 are state of mind.

And the other 1/10? :D

Thankfully, I have not been in a situation to use my martial arts and I hope that I never am. As a relative beginner, the only way I could use "nin" in any fights is the definition of the word. I would use the definition of "endurance" and "perseverence" to fight as hard as I could to stay alive.

Moko
31st January 2003, 15:10
I try to stay out of fights. I use Ninpo for that. (At least I think it's Ninpo.) :D :D :D

In a real fight I would use Ninpo, of course.

Oni
31st January 2003, 15:25
Ok,

Part of my point was contained in Ralphs reply...but there was more to it than that. Most of us that practice martial arts these days hopefully do not 'fight'. In fact since practicing I have had a much higher awareness of surroundings and who and where I am that I have been able to avoid the things that I did not in my younger years.

However to ask what percentage of ninpo or taijutsu I would use in a self defense situation is inseperable. I say the same thing when it comes to randori exercises. I reiterate...I use concepts of taijutsu when I sweep. I do not do this deliberately...in fact I did not even realize it until my wife picked on me about it.

These arts provide a method of moving that slowly integrates itself into the body and mind. It changes the way you walk...it changes the way you carry yourself, where your center of balance is, etc.

Now don't get me wrong...I am not saying I AM Mr. perfect taijutsu or anything like that. I am striving to get this stuff all straight just like the rest of us....however I am saying the art has profoundly affected all aspects of my life in a physical and mental way.

Now as I mentioned in another post it is impossible to truly imitate a real violent encounter...there is a chance for all of us that in this situation of emergency our bodies may react other than we wish them to...but I would like to think that these concepts are ingrained deep enough that my body would respond in the way I have been training it.

Now if you are asking specifically about the 'ninja' stuff perhaps my answer is not quite the perfect fit to your question...then again perhaps it is.

Tamdhu
31st January 2003, 15:49
If you cannot unbalance a resistive partner then spitting is not going to help and that is surely not Ninpo.

While I wholly appreciate your description of taijutsu as unified body movement, I disagree strongly with the rest of your post.

Attackers can be unbalanced mentally and spiritually as well as physically, and this is very much in keeping with what I percieve to be the spirit of ninpo. Spitting is just another form of metsubishi. In a real fight or survival situation, which is what's being discussed here, it's not in the slightest bit 'crazy'. Applied with timing, intention and strategy, it's as ninpo as a superbly executed physical-balance-robbing nage waza or what have you.

Mark J. Speranza
31st January 2003, 18:54
Hi

I need to clarify the concept of "crazy".

The way I understood the post is that Ninpo consists of spitting and head butting. :(

<<<<Think along these lines you can find UCHIMATA in NINJUTSU,JUJUTSU,JUDO but the diference is that in NIN it is perfectly acceptible if not expected to headbut your opponent or even spit in his eyes as you break his balance >>>>>

This is not Ninpo,it is fighting and can be said for any martial art including Judo, Jujutsu, or for that matter any street fighter. Even though in the "sport" of Judo there will be none of this, ask any Judoka if he/she was fighting on the street would they use these tactics to save their lives?

This is why I say crazy answer. Ninpo is not about this type of technique, but that's the way it is portrayed to the public and why ,IMOHO, many are embarressed or ashamed to admit they study or teach the art. People say "oh, we spit, bite, headbutt and that's what makes Ninpo". I say HOGWASH.

These extra techniques are handy if your life is on the line, but do not say it is Ninpo. It is fighting, plain and simple. If in Uchi-mata your technique is correct then you will throw the person, if not correct, no throw.:eek:

bgigas
31st January 2003, 19:09
To me, Ninpo and Taijutsu are different. They can certainly be related, for example if you are practicing Taijutsu with a ninpo spirit. Ninpo, however, is something that should be used at all times, regardless of whether you are physically fighting.

For example, I lived a year on the corner of 6th Ave and Bleecker Street in the middle of Greenwich Village, Manhatten. One day a few friends of mine and I were eating at a local McDonalds when this regular looking guy walked entered. As soon as he stepped through the doors I could tell something was wrong, I could feel a lot of negative intention coming from him. No sooner did I get my [obvlivous] friends out the door when he pulled a knife and started demanding the food [not money] from all the "white f*cks*. Myself, being as pale as a norwegen fjord, was happy to have left the area unscathed and with our food.

This is an example of ninpo.

Steve McGovern
31st January 2003, 19:27
Hi,

I tend to agree with Tandhu on the point of using metsubisi being part of taijutsu. Captruing the enemy's mind first and keeping him unbalanced negates the use of his weapons (hands, feet, etc), thereby allowing ones "taijutsu" techniques to continue to be effective. Its the "lights are on but nobody's home" idea. Nothing the enemy has in his inventory will work when there is no mind to direct them. As far as it not being Ninpo. IMHO I think it is or more to the point a part of the whole. I haven't seen this concept in any of the arts I've studied previously or in the so-called and popular "modern" fighting systems.

Is this effective. I can definitely answer a resounding yes! I've used it in my military duties in training security teams against so called hand-to-hand experts. A "deer in the headlights look" would be a good way to discribe their reaction just prior to their hitting the mat (physical form). I've also used it during Division meetings with less than agreeable peers and superiors (mental, spiritual & emotional).

Cheers :beer:

The Tengu
31st January 2003, 19:51
Originally posted by shadow42
my question is thus: When fighting, as in sparring, or actuall fighting,or what have you, how much of your fighting is taijutsu?I've only been in one fight since I started studying taijutsu. I was 9th kyu and 17 years old at the time.

I can tell you that I did use hicho no kamae to avoid a leg sweep.

But that's where my taijutsu stopped, and my "OMG I hope this punch hits him" strategy began.

Ever since then though, I have looked back at that ONE hicho no kamae and felt satisfied that it worked as advertised.

I think that ninpo could have kept me out of the situation entirely.

Lee Mc'pherson
31st January 2003, 22:12
That is what the bottom line of Nin. is: FIGHTING plain and simple you train dayly learning how to hurt,break and kill another human being.:eek:

What? You dont like it when it comes out like that?
Try stamp collecting instead or realize that this what you learn.

But if you do realize this sudenly you become aware of how fragile and precious life is and you start to respect and understand it just a little bit better.

So when it does come down to crunch time you are ready for it and you come away alive.That said with that realization you tend to avoid "crunch time" 99,99% of the times that it might occur.

As for uchimata if you think that once you are in that hold evrything is over and it just works then you dont really understand the word nin of ninjutsu...

Keep to the way of the warrior

shadow42
31st January 2003, 22:41
Wow, many varied responses. Thank you all! I believe I was thinking too narrowly when I asked this question, and am now understand the concept a bit better. Many thanks, now it's time to practice...

kirigirisu
1st February 2003, 00:03
:confused:

Hmm.

I thought that the word "nin" in "ninpo" or "ninjutsu," comprised of the kanji character for "sword" placed over the kanji character for "heart," meant "endurance" or "perseverance" or some such similar concept of surviving. Nothin' about fightin' as a bottom line, from what I can understand.

Thought the bottom line was about survival, be it through fightin', killin', sweet-talkin', walkin', steppin', runnin', or fakin', shakin' or breakin'.

Then again, what do I know about kanji?

Or Ninjers for that matter? :confused:

Ask this guy (http://www.realultimatepower.net), maybe?

Oni
1st February 2003, 00:46
Originally posted by kirigirisu
:confused:

Hmm.

I thought that the word "nin" in "ninpo" or "ninjutsu," comprised of the kanji character for "sword" placed over the kanji character for "heart," meant "endurance" or "perseverance" or some such similar concept of surviving. Nothin' about fightin' as a bottom line, from what I can understand.

Thought the bottom line was about survival, be it through fightin', killin', sweet-talkin', walkin', steppin', runnin', or fakin', shakin' or breakin'.

Then again, what do I know about kanji?

Or Ninjers for that matter? :confused:

Ask this guy (http://www.realultimatepower.net), maybe?

Heh,

Took the words out of my head :)

Lee Mc'pherson
1st February 2003, 02:20
The post was reffering to martial arts in general :D
i'll be more specific next time sorry but i'm new to this:rolleyes:

kirigirisu
1st February 2003, 04:25
No offense, but the combination of the words "Ninja" and "Greece" can be a bit unsettling.

Maybe because of this guy (http://hometown.aol.com/matrixinstructor/) and his various antics (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16572).

Anyhoo, good luck with your training.

Lee Mc'pherson
1st February 2003, 09:15
I can't blame you then after seeing that but really I don't think country has anything to do with the qualaty of a Martial Artist but just to set your mind at ease here's the lineage of my sensei:

Hatsumi M.
Daniel's Charles
Dervenis Kostantinos
Soumalevris Kostantinos(studied in japan)
Miliordos Stavros
Mc'pherson Lee

I hope that helps a bit.

kirigirisu
1st February 2003, 16:50
Not questioning the quality of your training or the quality of your instructors.

Just bad flashbacks on my part 'bout an American of Greek heritage very loudly and vocally embarrassing himself and his unnamed teachers.

You seem sincere enough.

Good luck.

Lee Mc'pherson
2nd February 2003, 03:39
On a final note here's some advice for everyone of us

Train with diligence, patience and care to avoid any useles injuries that can set you back in your training.

Rei budoka

Steve McGovern
3rd February 2003, 15:08
Let's see, The guy looks about 4 feet tall, uses a Jian dressed like a Sadducar(sp) from the movie Dune when not in Muay Thay shorts and flexing. Interesting to say the least.

Keep training. Perfect Practice makes Perfect

Karyu
4th February 2003, 07:18
I think you mean a Harkonnen, the Sardaukar had those green face plates. But if you watch the movie Iron Monkey, you can see the stupidly idiotic look he's going for.