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socho
3rd February 2003, 05:45
I attended a seminar this weekend in Elkton, VA, a small town on the Blue Ridge. The instructor was Roger Wehrhahn, 6th dan in Muso Shinden Ryu, head of the US branch of the San Shin Kai. Apparently his sensei had studied under Nakayama Hakudo, who was largely responsible for resurrecting Japanese swordsmanship after the Meiji period. We spent the first half of the day working on basics, then putting the basics together in forms, always a good approach. I have not done much MSR, so it was interesting to see and practice it, especially since much of the kendo renmei seitei iai comes from this style. For the second half of the seminar, we went over the forms of Shindo Munen Ryu (sp?). These were developed (I'm told) by Nakayama Hakudo, but were outside of the regular cirriculum of MSR. Definitely a revelation, all standing forms, the beginning stroke of each is a kiriage or gyaku-kesa. The kirioroshi is not from the same position (a low jodan kamae) as MSR, although many of the other details are the same. The feel is very similar to the gunto toho forms that were the basis of Toyama-ryu and Nakamura-ryu.
Does anyone outside (or inside) of this organization practice these or have any more information on this set? Did they precede or follow gunto toho? Only eleven forms, but lots of stuff going on.

Dave
(developing bad habits from yet another style)

MKL
3rd February 2003, 06:47
Hakudo did study Shinto Muso Ryu kenjutsu in his youth and acquired high rank in the art. And since he was one of the people who defined Gunto toho, it would be quite natural that the forms are quite similar.

However, since I haven't practised either forms, I cannot really comment the techniques.

Charles Mahan
3rd February 2003, 15:13
I believe Dave was referring to Shindo Munen Ryu, not Shinto Muso Ryu. Different styles.

R A Sosnowski
3rd February 2003, 15:15
Hi Dave,

I attended a similar seminar in 1998 in MA with Wehrhahn-s. (I wrote and published a seminar report on my experiences in the now-defunct Journal of Japanese Sword Arts). I have connections to them through Naginata (Brian Dunham), Kyudo (Marion Taylor, and Dr. Dennis Martin), and Aikido (Glen Webber).

To my knowledge, Shindo Munen Ryu is a Koryu; my notes list a founding date in the mid-1700's. There are Iaijutsu and Kenjutsu Kata. To my knowledge, Sanshinkai teaches only the Iai Gata; I have seen some of the Kenjutsu Kata demonstrated on video.

In the biographical material in Budden's Looking at a Far Mountain, a manual for Kendo no Kata, Nakayama Hakudo, who had a hand in creating and revising the Kendo no Kata (I have some old film footage of him performing Kendo no Kata in the 1930's), is listed as an exponent of Shindo Munen Ryu. As I recall, Sanshinkai uses the Kendo no Kata for Kumitachi.

There are twelve forms. I have notes from Guelph from Shindo Munen Ryu, along with the other style of Tachi Waza that the Sanshinkai teaches, Keishi[-cho] Ryu [five Kata]. I did a walkthrough of the Shindo Munen Ryu Kata with Brian Dunham about six months before I moved from NH to MD. I had learned the Keishi-cho Ryu in Guelph in 1996. They had learned the Shindo Munen Ryu and the Keishi-cho Ryu from Takeshi Mitsuzuka-s., the founder of Sanshinkai, in the late 1980's.

There is also a videotape that Glen Webber did for Shindo Munen Ryu Iai - I got mine through ECMAS from St. Bob the Elder. It's a good one for beginners to review the "shape of the Kata," but he never does any of the Kata on the tape at real speed, so one could get a false impression about the Kata.

Sanshinkai is the only organization that I have heard of that is actively teaching Shindo Munen Ryu.

Given the role that Nakayama Hakudo had in Toyama Ryu, I am not surprised that you can see and feel Shindo Munen Ryu in the Gunto Toho Kata.

HTH.

MKL
3rd February 2003, 15:32
baah. blasted typo, like Charles pointed out, we were talking about Shindo Munen ryu, not Shinto Muso ryu which was just a typo on my behalf... so what I meant to say was that Hakudo was practising Shindo Munen ryu kenjutsu in his youth...

so I made a fool of myself again. but that's what you do, when you try to write something in the morning...:p

Vile
3rd February 2003, 15:35
Originally posted by R A Sosnowski

To my knowledge, Shindo Munen Ryu is a Koryu; my notes list a founding date in the mid-1700's. There are Iaijutsu and Kenjutsu Kata.


According to BRDJ (Not sure about the translitteration of some of the names though..)

Shintou/Shindou Munen ryuu was found by Fukui Eiemon Yoshihara (he was known earlier in his life as Kawakami Zendayuu). He was born in 1702 and propably studied Shin Shin Kage Ichimon ryuu (offshoot of Shin Kage ryuu) under it's second head. In the middle of Kyouho era (1716-1736) he found a doujou in Yotsutani, Edo (present day Tokyo). At first he called his school Munen ryuu but later after having a vision of an incarnation of a diety (Shinshuu Iitsuna?) he became enlightened and around Houreki era (1751-1764) he renamed his school as Shintou Munen ryuu.

Btw. I believe Mr. Laitinen was talking about Shintou Munen ryuu. Shintou Musou ryuu was very likely a typo as we just week ago had discussion with Mr. Laitinen and others about Shintou Munen ryuu and Nakayama Hakudou :)

just my .5 Euro :)

MKL
3rd February 2003, 15:41
Thanks Mikko, I was waiting for your input from BRDJ.

Or should I address you more formally now that you referred to me as Mr. :D

socho
4th February 2003, 03:02
Thanks all for the additional info, especially about the history of the style. It was quite dynamic, all standing forms with lots of movement. I'm a big fan of anything that doesn't require seiza or tatehiza. I don't care for the turning-over-the-saya-to cut kiriage thing (very dangerous with a live blade, very difficult to teach properly without one), but there were some nice stepping-off-center big kesa cuts.
Wehrhahn-s is supposedly making a video of these soon, should be interesting.

Dave

Charles Mahan
4th February 2003, 14:54
Originally posted by socho
I'm a big fan of anything that doesn't require seiza or tatehiza.

Now now now. What's wrong with torture-kneeza?

NRBnine
6th February 2003, 21:28
bah, im confused. too many msr smr combinations