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szczepan
31st August 2000, 15:41
Hi,

I practice MSR about 5 years.Until now we are doing only practice alone.I read somewhere on the net there are other parts of training in MSR as kumitachi and grappling.Is it true?If this is the case they are practiced with iaito or bokken?What about free sparring?Why kata with kumitachi and grappling are no wide practiced if they exist?

thanks

pboylan
31st August 2000, 17:30
Hi Szczepan,

Yeah, there is other stuff in Muso Shinden Ryu. Danzaki Sensei's branch does more than any other MSR/MJER group I've found so far. There are several sets of kumitachi, as well as some kodachi vs. tachi, and a set or two where shitachi uses grappling against uketachi, but both are seated for these kata. The two big kumitachi sets are still the same as practiced in MJER, so if you can find a MJER teacher who knows them, you can learn them.

The problem is that most people don't seem to be interested in learning or practicing them. Especially in Japan. My teacher was lamenting this the last time I talked with him. He was also very surprised at the amount of interest there was in learning the kumitachi among my group here in the USA.

It's out there, but you have to search to find it.

Peter Boylan

szczepan
1st September 2000, 04:19
Hi Peter,

Do you know any Danzaki Sensei's affiliated dojo in north-east States?Canada?Guelp is too far away from me.
If not, any videos?

thanks

Meik Skoss
1st September 2000, 10:51
There are several forms in the kuraizume and tsumiai sets of techniques where shidachi controls uchidachi with a sort of joint-locking technique. Danzaki S. and his students may do a bit of other stuff, but that'd *probably* be because he was a professional rikishi (I think from either Kasugano or Tokitsukaze-beya) for a while and took up iaido after he retired from o-zumo.

There's a picture of one of the Eishin-ryu "grappling" waza in *Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts*, by Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith (Kodansha International), although it's been mis-labelled as "Kendo Kata" -- it shows the shidachi with an overhand grip on uchidachi's arm, preparing to stick him in the short ribs. Cool photo...

pboylan
1st September 2000, 17:11
Hi Szczepan,

I don't know of any videos, though he has written a very nice book (now out of print, though the publisher keeps telling me he's going to reprint it "real soon now"). Deb Bigs-Klensman in NY has a copy. You might try getting in touch with her. She does MSR in Otani sensei's dojo in NYNY. I have been told that there is a dojo connected to Danzaki Sensei in Quebec City, but I don't have any contact info.

Meik Skoss schreibt:
There are several forms in the kuraizume and tsumiai sets of techniques where shidachi controls uchidachi with a sort
of joint-locking technique. Danzaki S. and his students may do a bit of other stuff, but that'd *probably* be because he
was a professional rikishi (I think from either Kasugano or Tokitsukaze-beya) for a while and took up iaido after he retired
from o-zumo.
************************

That might well explain why Danzaki Sensei teaches more of this stuff than anyone else in the MJER/MSR lineage that I know of. The stuff of his that I've seen and read about (really wish I hadn't sold that book to Deb) looks like the bits I've been able to talk my teachers into teaching me as well. I know it's out there, I'm just having trouble finding it.

Peter Boylan

Tony Peters
1st September 2000, 19:45
We do a lot of boken work however Wayne has been teaching us the Takeuchi Ryu katas and eventually the kumitachis in addition to our MJER iaido. The Takeuchi Ryu stuff is very movement oriented and fast. Being in the wrong place leads to a thump on the Noggin (or wrist) if your not careful, I haven't been more than once. The addition of this training has lead (for me at least) to a greater understanding of the dynamics of the iaido kata. Near as I can tell the reason many folks don't do paired Kata/kumitachi/grappling is that it doesn't fit their "view" of what the sword is all about; they prefer to "Cut Air". Too bad a broader view might improve their understanding and maybe their technique as well.

szczepan
2nd September 2000, 04:23
Your post make me wonder,if "grappling" waza is possible, that because shidachi loose his sword, or he chose to control uchidachi rather then to kill him?
From your experiences, is entering to such distance really possible against skilled swordsmen?

regardz

pboylan
2nd September 2000, 15:49
Szczepan wrote:
Your post make me wonder,if "grappling" waza is possible, that because shidachi loose his sword, or he chose to
control uchidachi rather then to kill him? From your experiences, is entering to such distance really possible against skilled swordsmen?
******************

Well, the grappling is very situational. In the Tsumeai No Kurai, there is one technique where you come together, and end up holding each others sword hands. Tachi throws his sword to free his hand, and uses both hands to throw uke.

Much of the grappling assumes that you're both seated, much like the chuden section, so swords are in the saya. These are kind of fun, but the ukemi can be hard on uke.

Peter Boylan