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Óscar Recio
5th October 2002, 10:18
Ok...silly question of the week
One of my students asked a question about the concept of AJJ...when was the first time when people started using the word to adress a particular "view" of Martial Arts? which are the roots of the concept, historically?is an "ancient" or Koryu concept, pre-Tokugawa?people tried to claim about this subject later?why in 20th century people are talking so easily about Aikijujutsu or claiming to have been practising AJJ without any connection to the roots?
Thank You!!!!!
Best Regards,
óscar Recio:smilejapa

Cady Goldfield
18th October 2002, 19:54
Oscar,

You might find some information about this in Stanley Pranin's "Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu"(interviews with Daito-ryu masters) book. There has been commentary written about it in various articles in the Aikido Journal, and various internet forums from time to time, as well.

My understanding is that "aikijutusu" was suggested to Takeda Sokaku long after he began teaching Daito-ryu, and that it was some time before he referred to his art as aikijujutsu.

Chuck.Gordon
19th October 2002, 10:14
Pretty much what Cady said.

From what I understand, the term 'aiki' has been around a long time and can be found in the writings and kuden of many ryuha, but was never really applied as part of the name of anything, much less jujutsu, until fairly recently (I'm thinking late-Meiji).

There are systems of koryu jujutsu wherein is contained significant info and practice related to 'aiki' (by one or the other of the myriad definitions of what it MEANS to the particular style ...), but Sokaku Takeda was the first one (probably at Ueshiba's suggestion, and by default Onisaburo's sugestion) that it described Daito Ryu's jujutsu.

There are references in some scrolls to 'aiki no jutsu' and similar constructions, but until Takeda and Ueshiba agreed upon appending 'aiki' to the name of their arts, it was never used in the nominative sense ...


Chuck

Óscar Recio
19th October 2002, 10:59
Thank you Chuck and Cady for your answers.
I´ve seen a pic of a young Kenji Yoshida with a scroll hanging behind him with the "Aiki bugei" motto on it. I think if Richard Elias is on the forum probably he can speak a little about it...there´s a debate on another forum if Yanagi Ryu was pre-Daito Ryu...probably he can tell a little more about the subject.
I´m sure that the concept used on a nominative way is quite recent but the question is...where i can find historical files or information resources to the Aikijujutsu concept?
I´ll be checking Stan Pranin´s articles on Aikido Journal anyway...
Thank You.
Regards,
Óscar Recio:smilejapa

Dan Harden
19th October 2002, 14:21
Whats in a name?

I think rich would agree that there really is no debate about anything-just questions.
The Aikibugei scroll does not even predate the known use of the term Aikijujutsu. It is worth noting (and this aligns with Chucks comments) that both the termn and the description pre-dates Ueshibas involvement in the Daito Ryu.
The use of the term was noted in Taiso Horikawas notebook from 1913 "Apply Aiki here." Those in DR know what that means to convey. Moreover it has been noted by every member of the generation close to Takeda that he clearly spoke of the Jujutsu, Aikijujutsu and Aiki, as different things to be taught. Mr. Deguchis prompting of the use of the term in the name was the significant change. Though many people in the art still call it jujutsu much of the time.

There is no definitive answer as to the founding of DR. The founding date cannot be debated significantly for there is next to no information.
The founding date and even the voracity of the existance of the family art of the Yoshida clan as known as "Yanagi Ryu" past the first decade of the 20th century remains a mystery as well.
Good luck to us all in our search. As one fellow noted. "This concerns the burning interest of exatly who?" Twenty people in the world. :)

I would offer that I highly doubt DR as we know it came into being during the martial career of one man. If you look at and compare the technical syllibus of Aikido (another art founded in this century) and compare it to DR it is profoundly a shallower study. It is the same with Judo. Too, as it has been noted, Takeda was illiterate. Therefore if it was founded by Takeda then the passing down of scrolls, and indeed the very idea of organizing and writing them had to be a nefarious conspiracy.
Why?
The men who wrote them for him all claimed it was an old art. Where did they get the first scroll to copy and write down? Was it "made up" out of whole cloth by an Aizu friend? Or did the Horikawa's "aid" Takeda in fashioning them? Further, It has been recognized that Takeda had no lack of confidance in his ability and was rather robust in his dissmissive commentary and physical displays of the martial artists in general of his time. I cannot imagine him not stating that these were his own techniques and this art was his creation were that the case.


Dan

Óscar Recio
19th October 2002, 18:47
Well...i´m speechless.
Thank you so much Dan.
Regards,
Óscar Recio:)

Brently Keen
19th October 2002, 21:19
I pretty much agree with Dan. I do not subscribe to the aikido derived theory that states Ueshiba (and/or Onisaburo Deguchi) had anything to do with the addition of term "aiki" to Daito-ryu's name. IMHO that is revisionist history. As Horikawa's notebooks and also diaries of Yukiyoshi Sagawa's father indicated, the term aiki was in use prior to Ueshiba's introduction to Daito-ryu.

There may have been a name change from Daito-ryu Jujutsu to Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and general speculation is that Sokaku adopted it because he felt Aiki was central to the tradition he had learned and was teaching.

My own personal theory is that the overall tradition Sokaku "revived" is properly referred to as simply Daito-ryu, and that it contains among other things as Dan noted: jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and aiki (no jutsu). The "revival" probably results from the rejoining of the Saigo Tanomo (Chikanori Hoshina) line of "oshikiuchi" and the "Daito-ryu" or the Takeda family line of Aizu-han bujutsu, and/or the fact that Daito-ryu was near extinction and through Sokaku's tremendous efforts it was revived and survives today because of the skills of his most accomplished students and successors.

Older Daito-ryu documents that indicate the art described as "Daito-ryu Jujutsu" for example, on various documents including the eimeiroku, hiden mokuroku, etc... are not (imo) necessarily reflecting an "older name" of the tradition, that was later changed to "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu", but rather what was being taught or disclosed at the time. More recent documents that include the aiki prefix may not necessarily indicate a name change per se, but rather be the result of someone reasoning that since "aiki" represented both the peak and the essence of Daito-ryu it should be included on all the documents (including the jujutsu ones). It could also mean that later Sokaku began to teach the hiden mokuroku as aikijujutsu techniques rather than simply jujutsu techniques.

That would be consistent with the idea of Daito-ryu's gradual evolution from kenjutsu/jujutsu to aikijujutsu to more pure aiki as posited by some in the Kodokai - Roppokai tradition which posits that Sokaku himself was responsible for evolving and developing Daito-ryu aiki.

This view holds that what Sokaku inherited was only Daito-ryu Bujutsu: jujutsu, kenjutsu etc... and that because of his mastery of various schools of kenjutsu and other weapons combined with the oshikiuchi when he started emphasizing jujutsu instead of the kenjutsu as Tanomo urged him (saying the time of the sword is over it's time to focus on jujutsu), that Sokaku more or less took the previously existing "concept of aiki" and created the techniques of aiki (aiki no jutsu) himself from his exquisite sword movements and he naturally incorporated these developments into his jujutsu creating aikijujutsu himself. Gradually he developed these techniques more fully and began to strip away the more jujutsu elements focusing on the "aiki" which he felt was the essence of his techniques. He particularly emphasized the aiki aspect of these techniques in his instruction to Horikawa Kodo, and Kodo sensei continued in the way he was taught further refining the techniques - Kodo encouraged Seigo Okamoto in the same way to continue developing these aiki techniques, and gradually through the instruction of Sokaku to Kodo Horikawa and then to Seigo Okamoto much of the remaining vestiges of jujutsu fell away or became less and less prominent as the aiki took it's intended and essential place of prominence as the core essence and distinguishing characteristic of Daito-ryu.

This view looks at Sokaku as the inheritor of some Takeda family bujutsu/oshikiuchi, a master of Onoha Itto-ryu, who then invented or devoloped "aikijujutsu" himself and fused all those together with vestiges of various other Aizu-han martial arts he had studied thus becoming the "reviver of Daito-ryu". Modern Daito-ryu then according to this view is a blend of old traditional koryu bujutsu and Sokaku's more modern invention, fusion or development of the former into modern aikijujutsu.

I agree that there is and has been a natural progression/evolution - particularly in some branches of Daito-ryu. But I think agree with Dan that it's pretty increbible to believe any one person could have invented/founded it all, even just the aiki portion of Daito-ryu is so deep and involves so many layers of development, and sophistication that it's hard to fatham some one person contriving it all, regardless of their level of genius, experience and expertise. It just had to be developed more over time. There is embedded deep in Daito-ryu aiki techniques generations of accumulated battlefield and combat experience that seems to scream out at the receptive practitioner a vast sense of history and forgotten knowledge all caught in a flow from archaic history right up to the present that is I believe characteristic of all living koryu bujutsu. Figuratively speaking, I personally find it fascinating to slice open or dissect Daito-ryu aiki techniques I learned from my teacher, and discover the equivalent of age rings in a tree stump, each proclaiming insights from their generation or era previously completely unknown to me.

Either way, Sokaku is the pivotal character and father of Daito-ryu as we know it. Even if he did not create aikijujutsu himself, he clearly played a major part in it's develoment. And if he did, he truly was an unparalled genius who was able to instill and fuse into his creation, not just tidbits of ancient teachings smattered together, but cohesively melt together so much more from the past than his own experience could have possibly gathered. The resulting seamless depth of what he compiled is just mind-boggling.

At any rate, oral tradition has it that someone may have persuaded Sokaku - as a result of this evolution/progression even during Sokaku's time to append "aiki" as the prefix to jujutsu making "aikijujutsu". Some say it was Ueshiba as has been claimed by aikido sources, and noted above, but others say it was Yoshida or possibly someone else, perhaps Horikakwa or Sagawa. The 'who' is uncertain, but the story of someone persuading Sokaku to begin calling it aikijujutsu persists.

If we look at the traditional curriculum there is a general systematic order of instruction that starts with basic jujutsu (hiden mokuroku kata or equivalent techniques) being taught first. These techniques have many characterisitic Daito-ryu traits, but also are not all that different from other Japanese jujutsu schools - they represent (imo) a foundational curriculum of standard or typical basic and advanced jujutsu techniques, principles, and strategies. After that, typically one would begin to study the "aiki no jutsu" curriculum, these techniques were rather unique to Daito-ryu. These were the "secret essence" or advanced techniques of Daito-ryu. After learning the "techniques of aiki" those techniques and principles were then applied to or combined with the jujutsu techniques already learned in addition to the next level of techniques which were the "hiden ogi" and "goshin yo no te" or hand techniques of self-defense - hence the appellation "aikijujutsu" (aiki + jujutsu).

That is the general order of the densho - but as we know, Sokaku didn't teach strictly according to the scrolls and he taught different individuals and groups differently according to their needs, abilities, etc... Because of the destruction of the Aizu castle and loss of the highly outnumbered and outgunned Aizu clan against their opponents in the Boshin Civil War no known documents pre-Sokaku have survived, so we don't know exactly what their contents were or if the term "aiki" was used prominently before.

Ono-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu as well as portions of Jikishinkage-ryu were apparently taught separately to some, but not to others. In the mainline, Tokimune apparently taught kenjutsu concurrently alongside Daito-ryu and considered it as part of Daito-ryu.

My own understanding again is that the Itto-ryu was used by Sokaku as a foundational curriculum of solid kenjutsu techniques upon which Daito-ryu aiki techniques and principles were added (much like the hiden mokuroku serves as jujutsu base upon which to apply Daito-ryu aiki today). Sokaku's own toho/kenpo (sword methods) and hence the mysterious/lost or at least elusive "Daito-ryu" kenjutsu upon which all Daito-ryu techniques are said to be based is, (at least in imo) based on Daito-ryu's traditional aiki-ken (not to be confused with Iwama or Aikido sword work also known as "aiki-ken") more than strictly on Onoha Itto-ryu. Takeda (and Hoshina) clansmen from generations prior to Sokaku more than likely used whatever pre-eminent kenjutsu ryu was being officially taught in their day and locale (at least in Aizu the officially sanctioned and required school was for a long time Mizoguchi-ha Itto-ryu). So based partly on what I've learned and was taught, and partly on my own speculation, it is my opinion that this "aiki" was much of the "essence" of the secret family tradition(s) that Sokaku received and was taught by Tanomo Saigo and his father, and that he in turn perhaps at Tanomo's insistence used that as a model to develop Daito-ryu as we know it today which is comprised, as you know primarily of jujutsu/aikijujutsu techniques rather than kenjutsu. At the core, however, was and is still aiki.

Some say the base upon which Daito-ryu rests is kenjutsu (and perhaps this was moreso in the past), others would say the base is jujutsu, the body of Daito-ryu is aikijujutsu, and at the pinnacle or top is aiki - this view describes a progression from strictly jujutsu to incorporating aiki with jujutsu (aikijujutsu) to gradually stripping away the jujutsu elements to achieve the same or desired results using "pure aiki", while others would insist that the base of Daito-ryu is really the "aiki", upon which the rest of the tradition operates and is practically meant to be applied with. My own view leans more towards the latter, although I think each view holds validity, and perhaps in the grander scheme, all of them are correct in one sense/way, or another.

I might also mention other groups of Daito-ryu techniques include the soden (Takumakai), kuden (various oral teachings), Daito-ryu Aiki Nito-ken (or Aiki Nito-ryu), kaishaku soden, and (menkyo) kaiden. Also worth mentioning are the oshikiuchi, which are the techniques from which Daito-ryu was said to be developed.

The term oshikiuchi in Daito-ryu traditionally refers to techniques for inside the castle from which we get our zatori and hanza hantachi techniques. The techniques were specially designed for castle bodyguards to defend one's lord while conforming to the strict rules of ettiquette indoors. The Takeda samurai were in fact employed as instructors to the shogun's personal guards. So that makes sense. However there has been some speculation about this term, and what it actually refers to. It's thought by some to refer only to the rules of ettiquette for inside the castle grounds and/or surrounding the presence of the shogun or one's lord and not to martial techniques at all.

This interpretation doesn't hold up (imo) - why on earth would an extremely accomplished and practical martial artist, who had a known disdain for education/school, who still saw himself as a samurai, who wanted to join Takamori Saigo's armed resistance against the new gov't, sit still long enough to learn only castle ettiquette from (a supposed non-martial artist like) Tanomo Saigo, much less make up a story like that?

His father sent him to train with Tanomo because Sokaku respected him as a former leader of the Aizu clan and it's resistance in the Boshin civil war. Sokaku would have no reason to make up and teach something like "oshikiuchi" and claim they were techniques if they weren't (nor would Tanomo). And even if Tanomo made it up I can't imagine someone with Sokaku's personality ever repeating such and teaching it no less. Why would Sokaku even claim Tanomo was the one who taught him if Tanomo was only appointed to over-see his training as has been suggested by some?

Tanomo's entire family commited seppuku (they were samurai) when they saw the Aizu castle go up in flames and thought all was lost. Tanomo was even captured by Imperial forces and was apparently rescued by Soemon and/or Sokichi Takeda and their small party barely escaped with their lives. Upon discovering his family's fate he had to be restrained from following them in seppuku - it is said he was dissuaded because of his obligation as the sole surviving person capable of teaching the oshikuchi - and he was persuaded to become a priest instead of joining his family in death. That he participated in the war, and was a leader (councilor/governor?) of Aizu, suggests to me that at the very least he had combat experience, and may have been a strategist as well. As a samurai in Aizu he likely would've been required at least to train in Mizoguchi-ha Itto-ryu. That it is not mentioned in his diaries does not prove anything. What other documents and evidence of his activities prior to the war have survived? Because they were on the losing side they themselves reportedly destroyed documents detailing their activities and involvement with the Aizu resistance to protect themselves.

Sokaku was not the first to learn martial arts from Tanomo Saigo his illegitimate but later adopted son Shiro Saigo (of Judo fame) also learned oshikiuchi from his father - Judo sources also verify that he had learned Daito-ryu from Tanomo Saigo, and that it was his own unique techniques that he used to beat the strongest jujutsu fighters of the day in matches that resembled today's NHB competitions. Sokaku also had an older brother who may have been ahead of him for successorship (at least we know he was studying for priesthood). But he died early on and Sokaku was urged to come and take his place at the shrine, but he eventually gave up on that in favor his own musha shugyo.

The literal translation of oshikiuchi refers to rules for "inside the threshold". So it may also refer to the secret art/tradition passed down within the Takeda family/clan and not shown to outsiders. If Sokaku's "aiki" does derive from the oshikiuchi techniques as it is said, then that translation is consistent with both the traditional Daito-ryu usage of the term, and also with my theory of "aiki" being the "core" of the secret family art of the Takeda/Hoshina clan.

Another side note is that it is uncertain whether Chikanori Hoshina (Tanomo Saigo) learned Daito-ryu/oshikiuchi from Sokaku's grandfather or from his own family. One version has the oshikiuchi being transmitted down through the Hoshina family in Aizu for generations, while the other battlefield bujutsu was passed down in the Takeda family. The other version speculates that that Sokaku's grandfather Soemon taught Tanomo Saigo the oshikiuchi (aiki) because Sokichi (Sokaku's father) was a rather large and strong giant (a sumo ozeki) who it is suspected would've been less able to pick up on the important subtle details of aiki.

Regards,

Brently Keen

Richard Elias
19th October 2002, 23:10
Oscar,

I don't really have much to add to any of the above. I do pretty much agree with what Dan said though, like he said I would.

The concept and term aiki is older than the ajj use of the term, but mostly in sword schools, such as Kashima Shin ryu (which also contains jujutsu and very "aiki-esque" techniques in both the sword and jujutsu). There are other terms for what is being called aiki, in all of it's varied forms, in many styles. As you have no doubt experienced, Shindo Yoshin ryu contains such but does not call it aiki. I have seen very similar "aiki" technqiues to those of Daito ryu in arts that have no connection to Daito ryu at all.

"So how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie-roll tootsie-pop?... The world may never know."

MarkF
20th October 2002, 09:45
For an approximate date, etc., of the "founding" of DR Aikijujutsu:

http://ejmas.com/kronos/NewHist1900-1939.htm

Use ctrl. & F and enter Takeda Sokaku.

It's not a lot, but there is an interesting statement. The date used originally was about 1913, but has now been changed.


Mark

Óscar Recio
20th October 2002, 10:24
Brently....Richard....
Well...:smilejapa :smilejapa :smilejapa :smilejapa :smilejapa
Thank you!!
Óscar Recio

Dan Harden
20th October 2002, 12:47
Registered: May 2000
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Posts: 3092

For an approximate date, etc., of the "founding" of DR Aikijujutsu:

http://ejmas.com/kronos/NewHist1900-1939.htm

Use ctrl. & F and enter Takeda Sokaku.

It's not a lot, but there is an interesting statement. The date used originally was about 1913, but has now been changed.


Mark


__________________
Mark F. Feigenbaum


****************************

Mark
With all due and deserved respect.......
There is nothing factual that speaks to the "founding " question to be read there. Of the little that is known, that has been cross referenced and IS supportable-the information given at that site is wrong. Even the name of the art is wrong; the dates are wrong, the "founding" statement offered is foolish . Not enough is known to make definitive statements. Anyone worth their salt who would offer opinions is going to offer a lot of qualifiers and will more than likely mention the disputable historical claims as well.

So to make a definitive statement like that:
"Takeda Sokaku ,who created DR aiki jutsu(sic) around 1896...."
is patently ridiculous.
Were it so easy

Dan Harden

MarkF
20th October 2002, 15:31
Hi, Dan,
I did enclose "founding" in quotes. It is an estimation since most either believe DR Aikijujutsu didn't exist until the time Takeda used the term aiki in his description. Others believe it to be in 1913, and other dates. The approximate date is probably as accurate as any. (1897 which also stated it to be approximate).

Some also think it to be gendai MA due to the dates including the date of Takeda S. birth probaly makes it a gendai MA. That said,

I don't really care about that, myself. I believe the separation of gendai and koryu to be nothing more than a continuum, and I no longer feel the need to separate the two (koryu and gendai) for obvious reasons.

I know the name was wrong, but the easy assumption is a typo. Happens all the time.

My point was only one of when DR aikijujutsu became aikijujutsu. The other comment was one of Tadeka S. to be some what rebellious, as to the statement I alluded.

One other point: I don't believe Takeda Sokaku was pround of being illiterate, but only proud he could get others to take care of such mundane tasks.

Bottom line, the dates are skewed and I tossed in another one for consideration.

I don't consider it wrong, only that the date of DR jujutsu becoming aikijujutsu has not been nailed down. I don't doubt DRAJJ to be older than this, I only suggested a date for the name change, nothing more.


Mark

PS: In another thread someone mentioned that Dr. Jigoro Kano to have been assasinated in the early 1920s or at least well before the true date of his death in 1938.

The link was there, btw, and I only added it not giving an opinion as to whether it were right or wrong, and I do know who gave that date, and you probably would be very surprised, but as his name isn't given in the bibliography, I left it out. My opionion is only that of the koryu/gendai yea of "separation."

Argue with the writer about it.

MF

Brently Keen
21st October 2002, 23:52
Another tangent here, but since Mark F mentioned it again: There was a discussion on another thread about Sokaku's alleged "illiteracy", in which someone asserted that Sokaku was "completely illiterate", or something to that effect, and I questioned the truth of the statement and challenged whether it was another (aikido based) exaggeration/assumption. I stated that I felt there was a difference between not being able (or willing) to write and not being able to read. I found the following exchange taken from Stanley's book and posted on the mainline website here http://www.daito-ryu.org In the following question and answer, Kondo sensei essentially affirms my point - I quote:

Stanley Pranin: "I understand that Sokaku was not interested in studies as a boy and was illiterate."

Kondo: "Although it is said that Sokaku Sensei was totally illiterate, I understand that he actually could read. It seems that when he was a child he had a reason for declaring that he would never write. I have heard that whenever there was an election, he would practice writing the Chinese characters of the name of the person he was going to vote for and then go to the polls."

As for the orgins of ajj, sweeping statements that try to put a year/date on the founding of Daito-ryu whether in 1913, or even 1896 as mentioned in the above provided link are indeed ridiculous whether they are approximate or not, because there's no real evidence or even oral tradition to back up such assumptions.


Brently Keen

Chris Li
22nd October 2002, 00:40
Originally posted by Brently Keen
Another tangent here, but since Mark F mentioned it again: There was a discussion on another thread about Sokaku's alleged "illiteracy", in which someone asserted that Sokaku was "completely illiterate", or something to that effect, and I questioned the truth of the statement and challenged whether it was another (aikido based) exaggeration/assumption. I stated that I felt there was a difference between not being able (or willing) to write and not being able to read. I found the following exchange taken from Stanley's book and posted on the mainline website here http://www.daito-ryu.org In the following question and answer, Kondo sensei essentially affirms my point - I quote:

Stanley Pranin: "I understand that Sokaku was not interested in studies as a boy and was illiterate."

Kondo: [B]"Although it is said that Sokaku Sensei was totally illiterate, I understand that he actually could read. It seems that when he was a child he had a reason for declaring that he would never write. I have heard that whenever there was an election, he would practice writing the Chinese characters of the name of the person he was going to vote for and then go to the polls."

OTOH, on the same (mainline) site Tokimune Takeda says "Since Sokaku could not read, he put the letter into his kimono and carried it to Momonoi in Osaka.".

Anyway, whether he could or couldn't it appears as if he didn't read or write, for the most part.

Best,

Chris

Brently Keen
22nd October 2002, 03:38
So we have several conflicting statements coming from the same source.

I'm not going to argue adamantly about this as I cannot claim to know for certain - however I would argue that a case could be made for either perspective.

What I really objected to in the other thread was not so much the actual truth, extent of, or untruth Sokaku's alleged illiteracy, but rather the mis-characterization of Sokaku's character and intelligence that results from the repeated assertions that he was illiterate. The implication that one is left with is that Sokaku was an uneducated, barbaric, and cranky sort of brute - that is at least the way many aikido sources have sought to portray him as. The repeated mention of his "illiteracy" only adds to the image of that stereotype.

Based on what I've learned about Daito-ryu and Sokaku Takeda, I think that the stereotypical portrayal of Sokaku as a truly feared martial artist, but somewhat of an uneducated dolt is inaccurate - and rather to the contrary, I think that his students and associates saw him as rather brilliant (whether he could write or not). So although I do not know (and perhaps no one living truly does) with certainty, which statement is accurate as to what extent Sokaku may have been illiterate or unable to write - I personally share the view which Kondo sensei has expressed as it makes sense to me and jives with what I'd already been told.

Even if Sokaku was illiterate (and he very well may have been) I'm simply pointing out that:

1.) other evidence suggests Sokaku's character, intelligence and perceptive abilities were exceptional, regardless of his ability to read and/or write,

2.) there is also some reason to question the extent of his alleged "complete illiteracy" and perhaps reason to make a distinction between his ability to read and his admitted inability and unwillingness to write.

As for determining the truth of the conflicting statements, I would suggest making an attempt to put each comment into it's proper context, as well as consider the original language, the possibility of some error in interpretation, as well as the surrounding circumstances, and possible intentions/motives behind each comment.

I also assume that Tokimune (or perhaps maybe Kotaro Yoshida?) would've been the source for Kondo's "understanding" as stated in his interview - at any rate one would have to question why there might be discrepancies in their statements.

I personally had heard that Sokaku could read, but couldn't write at least a year before Stanley's book came out while I was still living in Japan, and I was told that came from either an interview with Tokimune or from Tokimune's own newsletter. The person who told me this was formerly a member of another Daito-ryu branch before he had joined the Roppokai, and I remember because I'd made a note of it in one of my training dairies at the time.

I'll be the first to admit that I could be wrong - I'm not insisting that my source and Kondo's comments are right and everyone else is wrong, I'm only insisting that there is also the possibility that Sokaku's "complete illiteracy" may be just another exaggeration or half-truth resulting from a misunderstanding. I just think that before people make sweeping generalizations, or form concrete opinions, they should consider the implications as well as other points of view - that's all.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Chris Li
22nd October 2002, 04:46
Originally posted by Brently Keen
So we have several conflicting statements coming from the same source.

I'm not going to argue adamantly about this as I cannot claim to know for certain - however I would argue that a case could be made for either perspective.

What I really objected to in the other thread was not so much the actual truth, extent of, or untruth Sokaku's alleged illiteracy, but rather the mis-characterization of Sokaku's character and intelligence that results from the repeated assertions that he was illiterate. The implication that one is left with is that Sokaku was an uneducated, barbaric, and cranky sort of brute - that is at least the way many aikido sources have sought to portray him as. The repeated mention of his "illiteracy" only adds to the image of that stereotype.

Different sources, actually, one being the son (who did spend time with Sokaku), and one being Kondo (who didn't spend time with Sokaku). I don't know that I would characterize him as "barbaric", but "cranky" probably fits, especially since he appears to have decided to take a pass on literacy because of a fight with his father in elementary school :). I'm not sure why I would try to argue that he was literate when his own son stated on several occasions that he wasn't - seems like more or less a pointless argument to me.

Certainly he was eccentric, as was M. Ueshiba (although his eccentricities ran in different directions).


Originally posted by Brently Keen
1.) other evidence suggests Sokaku's character, intelligence and perceptive abilities were exceptional, regardless of his ability to read and/or write,

I don't think that I've ever heard any of the old Aikido folks question his intelligence or perceptive abilities. Reflections on his character seem to have mostly been based on a few meetings when he was quite old. I've seen at least one place where Tokimune credited those stories to Sokaku's senility. That suggests to me that the stories may well be accurate, but that those stories may not reflect what he was like in his younger years.


Originally posted by Brently Keen

2.) there is also some reason to question the extent of his alleged "complete illiteracy" and perhaps reason to make a distinction between his ability to read and his admitted inability and unwillingness to write.

Well, he decided (according to Tokimune) to give it up in elementary school, so I suppose that it could be argued that he had learned something about reading and writing by then (although I'm not sure that I would call someone who could only read at an elementary school level "literate"). Maybe the term "functionally illiterate" would not be out of place in those circumstances.

Best,

Chris

Brently Keen
22nd October 2002, 06:47
Chris and all,

It's not worth arguing about this, so these will be the last points I'll make on this subject unless something totally new comes up (sorry for the thread drift):

I meant the same source as I presumed Kondo's understanding came from Tokimune as well.

Sokaku was never quoted (to my knowledge) saying something to the effect of, "I hate reading, I don't want to read and instead I'm going to have people read for me."

His beef with his father by all accounts was about writing. And he made a point, in fact a rather big deal about not writing and instead having other people write for him.

Several of his students recall being asked/recruited by Sokaku to write for him on various occasions - however, I'm not aware of any making a point that they also "read" for him.

It's easy to leap to the conclusion that if someone cannot write they also must be illiterate - unable to read - but that's jumping to a conlusion (especially easy for us native English speakers, since we only have 26 simple letters to remember), it may just as well not be true though. I recounted in another thread how when I was living in Japan, I could read (what I thought was quite a few kanji), but I couldn't copy them very well, much less write them from memory.

When I first learned from my sempai that Sokaku could read even though he didn't write, he was correcting me for saying that Sokaku was illiterate - which of course I had also read before and assumed was true, and yet because he was very adamant and matter of fact about it, I was prompted to make note of it in my diary. Later upon further reflection, when I read that was also Kondo's understanding, I figured he probably had additional reasons for thinking as much and so it just made more sense to me to buy it until or unless I could be shown otherwise.

As for Sokaku's character, no one disputes that he wasn't a severe individual - he was perhaps a warrior born a generation too late - but he wasn't uncivilized, and I don't think he was mean-spirited either. I'm not really trying to dispute your points per se Chris, I have to agree with some of them, I'm simply trying to offer another perspective by making other points that I think are often overlooked or even unknown, and hopefully they will serve to shed some additonal light so that people can paint a more objective portrait.

Objectively, I think that recollections of aikido students of Ueshiba meeting Sokaku, have to be taken with a grain of salt - they are nearly all biased, and at times at real odds with recollections of Sokaku's other students. Compare for example, recollections of Hisa and the Asahi dojo members who became students of Sokaku with those who remained with Ueshiba.

Keep in mind also that there are kept within the traditions of some branches other recollections of Sokaku that have not been published. These may have other POV's as well as their own inherent biases.

Also consider that Tokimune's own relationship with his father was sporadic at best - as the son of Sokaku, and headmaster of the mainline branch, we should recognize that his POV is at once both close and removed, as well as authoritive, but also naturally subjective/biased too.

At any rate, Tokimune's comments about his father's loud and cranky personality/senility also have to be taken in their context. I believe Tokimune explained for example that some of this was simply due to Sokaku's hearing loss as he got older, he spoke louder, and he also infers that his manner of speaking practically may have been a carry over from older samurai customs of calling out and announcing one's arrival (or perhaps even issuing challenges on the battlefield).

But, if I'm thinking of the same specific reference in Stanley's book as you are Chris - then he (Tokimune) was recounting a time where he was apologizing profusely and making excuses for his father's sudden behavior which was at the time very embarrassing to him - but later proved to be not not the result of senility at all, but rather of Sokaku's exceptional abilities of perception - which was the subject Tokimune was addressing in the context of that interview - He was not explaining his father's alleged cranky demeanor as characterized by stories from aikido (or other) sources, he was describing his father's uncanny abilities to read people whom he'd never met. He may or may not have been able to read kanji, but he sure could read people rather well, and I'd say that made him a rather functional reader - at least in a sense that was practical for him.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Chris Li
22nd October 2002, 08:02
Originally posted by Brently Keen
Sokaku was never quoted (to my knowledge) saying something to the effect of, "I hate reading, I don't want to read and instead I'm going to have people read for me."

His beef with his father by all accounts was about writing. And he made a point, in fact a rather big deal about not writing and instead having other people write for him.

Several of his students recall being asked/recruited by Sokaku to write for him on various occasions - however, I'm not aware of any making a point that they also "read" for him.

It's easy to leap to the conclusion that if someone cannot write they also must be illiterate - unable to read - but that's jumping to a conlusion (especially easy for us native English speakers, since we only have 26 simple letters to remember), it may just as well not be true though. I recounted in another thread how when I was living in Japan, I could read (what I thought was quite a few kanji), but I couldn't copy them very well, much less write them from memory.

There's some truth to that, I don't write Japanese well, although I read it fairly comfortable. I'm able to get by as long as I can read the input on my computer (which is how I got lazy writing Japanese). OTOH, I find it hard to believe that anyone of Sokaku's generation could learn to read at a level high enough to be functionally literate without also writing. I suppose that a lot of it is where you draw the line between literate and illiterate.


Originally posted by Brently Keen
Objectively, I think that recollections of aikido students of Ueshiba meeting Sokaku, have to be taken with a grain of salt - they are nearly all biased, and at times at real odds with recollections of Sokaku's other students. Compare for example, recollections of Hisa and the Asahi dojo members who became students of Sokaku with those who remained with Ueshiba.

Of course! And the same goes the other way - there are very few Japanese students who recount embarassing stories about their instructors. The first hand accounts that I've read don't seem to me, on the whole, to be overly biased. Mostly I find that the problems come in when the stories are being repeated second or third hand with the accompanying changes in emphasis.


Originally posted by Brently Keen
But, if I'm thinking of the same specific reference in Stanley's book as you are Chris - then he (Tokimune) was recounting a time where he was apologizing profusely and making excuses for his father's sudden behavior which was at the time very embarrassing to him - but later proved to be not not the result of senility at all, but rather of Sokaku's exceptional abilities of perception - which was the subject Tokimune was addressing in the context of that interview - He was not explaining his father's alleged cranky demeanor as characterized by stories from aikido (or other) sources, he was describing his father's uncanny abilities to read people whom he'd never met.

Actually no, it was another one, but the specifics escape me at the moment.


Originally posted by Brently Keen
He may or may not have been able to read kanji, but he sure could read people rather well, and I'd say that made him a rather functional reader - at least in a sense that was practical for him.

No argument there!

Best,

Chris

meat
6th February 2003, 10:56
Hi guys, I was just wondering what the generally accepted origin of daito ryu is? I've read that it was founded by Minamoto Yoshimitsu but I have also heard that this has also never been verified. What is the general consensus in the aikijutsu community?

Nathan Scott
6th February 2003, 21:33
[Post deleted by user]

meat
7th February 2003, 01:27
Many thanks Nathan. :smilejapa

Kendoguy9
8th February 2003, 18:48
Hello all,

One thing that I think can be proven is that Sokaku did do some inventing on his own (maybe not the whole kit'n'kaboodle). The last time Kondo sensei was here in Baltimore, we had the pleasure of hearing a lecture by Mr. Stan Pranin on aikido and Daito-ryu (with actual examples of scrolls from Kondo sensei's collection). From Mr. Pranin's lecture it is pretty clear that Takuma Hisa was the first person to get the menkyo kaiden scroll. Mr. Pranin stated that Sokaku invented this scroll and the 88 techniques in it, for Takuma Hisa and on Takuma's advise in attempt to bring the cirriculum of DR inline with other koryu. We are all hoping Mr. Pranin will make this lecture available on tapes or CD.

I know this is a little off topic and I am sorry.

MarkF
9th February 2003, 12:25
This is just the kind of situation which has many believing that the line separating koryu and gendai is artificial and means little, if anything.

DR mixes elements of both so why the need to separate the old from the new?

Others who practice koryu believe it must evolve or become a relic and eventually die out, so are those particular koryu really koryu at all? Mostly, all are on a kind of continuum and have aspects in both periods, so there doesn't seem to be a reason to separate them, at least with an artificial time line.

That is just my opinion, I could be wrong (doh!)


Mark

L-Fitzgerald
13th February 2003, 12:56
This is what I've found while researching the history of the Minamoto Clan:

Emperor Seiwa - 850 A.D.

Prince Geijin-Teijin, his reign name was Mizuno’o/Mizuo.

Prince Sadasumi [Gen Teijin]

Minamoto family traditions identify him as the 6th son of Emperor Seiwa. Knowing he could never become Emperor, Prince Sadasumi subsequently devoted his life to studying many different methods of combat and is credited with founding a large number of arts that later became known as Genji-no-Heiho [The Secret Warrior Arts of the Gen Clan]. In Chinese the ideogram for the name Minamoto is pronounced as Gen [ji- family].

Tsunemoto

Governor of Chikuzen Han [prefecture] and father of Minamoto no Mitsunaka

Minamoto no Mitsunaka - 913 - 997 A.D.

Father of Minamoto Yorimitsu and Minamoto Yorinobu. He later assumed the name Manju when he became a Buddhist Monk.

Minamoto Yorimitsu [Raiko - General Shiro Saburo] - 948 - 1021 A.D.

He is credited with formalizing the development of Aikijutsu and is acknowledged in Japanese history as having owned the sword known as “Dojikiri Yatsutsuna,” a national treasure. This sword was used to capture the bandit Shutendoji in the mountains of Tamba during the late Henian Period [1100's] and later used by Sakanoue Tamuromaro during his efforts to suppress the eastern barbarians. Yorimitsu and his brother Yorinobu made extensive studies in anatomy and physiology by dissecting the bodies of war dead and criminals. According to Nihon Goshin Aikido traditions the Minamoto sword arts became known as Daito Ryu [Sword Traditions] and the family home became the Daito Mansion [House of the Sword]. The death of Yorimasa [1104 - 1180], Minamoto Yorimitsu’s only son ended this branch of the Minamoto Clan.

Minamoto Yorinobu - 968 - 1048 A.D. [approx]

Japanese history identifies him as one of the most famous generals of the Henian Period and when called upon to quell a rebellion the rebels immediately surrendered upon hearing that he was deploying an army.

Minamoto Yoriyoshi[ie] - 988 - 1075 A.D.

A son of Minamoto Yorinobu and a 5th generation descendant of Emperor Genji. As the military power of the Imperial Court declined and the rivalry that existed between the Minamoto and Taira Clans became more pronounced as each attempted to gain more influence with the Imperial Court.

Minamoto no Yoshimitsu 1045 - 1127 A.D.

Older brother of Minamoto no Yoshiie and 6th generation descendant of Prince Sadasumi Teijin. He was an expert in the arts of To [sword], Taijutsu, Kyushu [archery], and So-jutsu [spear].

Minamoto Yoshiie 1048 - 1108 A.D.

He and his brother Minamoto no Yoshimitsu learned the Bugei [Military] Arts from their father, Minamoto no Yoriyoshi. Yoshiie’s skills resulted in his being given the name Hachiman Taro [First﷓born son of the God of War] by his father. In 1098 A.D. Yoshiie was allowed to enter the Imperial Court, an honor seldom given to a Samurai and one that greatly enhanced the standing of the Minamoto Clan, an honor strongly resented by the Taira Clan. Both Minamoto Yoshiie and his brother, Minamoto Yoshimitsu were leading experts in the fields of Kyushu [archery], Toho [sword], and Taijutsu and acknowledged as having created many other Martial Arts including Takeda Ryu [considered the forerunner of Daito Ryu Aiki-jutsu and Kosyu Ryu Gunpo [The Traditions of Military Strategy]. The Takeda and Ogasawara Schools of Mounted Archery still teach the traditional forms of Kyushu today.

Minamoto Yoshichika

Third son of Minamoto Yoshiie, after being appointed Governor of Tsushima he became extremely corrupt and was removed from office and exiled to Oki. During his exile he stole government property and either was responsible for or actually murdered a number of local officials. After fleeing to Izumi he was hunted down and killed by Taira Masamori. However, his behavior was used by the Taira Clan to erode the standing of the Minamoto at the Imperial Court. Around 1158 leading Taira Clan advisors to the Imperial Court convinced the Emperor to rescind all Minamoto appointments and declare them to be outlaws. The Taira Clan secured the appointments once held by the Minamoto Clan and proceeded to hunt down and execute all adult male members of the Minamoto Clan. The Minamoto women convinced the Taira Samurai to spare the lives of the children by agreeing to become concubines to the Taira Samurai, an act of mercy that later resulted in the total destruction of the Taira Clan.

Minamoto Yoshitomo 1128 - 1160 A.D.

He was hunted down and killed by the Taira Clan after the Emperor had declared the Minamoto Clan as outlaws because of the actions of Minamoto Yoshichika


Minamoto Yoritomo 1147 - 1199

A son of Minamoto Yoshitomo [1123-1160] who, along with other adult male members of the Minamoto Clan had been executed by the Taira Clan. The lives of Yoritomo, his half-brother Yoshitsune along with 5 other brothers, half-brothers and cousins were spared because their mothers agreed to become concubines to Taira Samurai. Twenty years later Yoritomo, his brothers, Yoshitsune, Yoshimitsu, Yoshikiyo, Noriiye, and cousins fought the Taira Clan in the Gempei Wars. In three major battles, fought at Ichintani in Settsu Province, Yeshima in Samuki Province and Dan-no-Ura in Nagato Province they extracted final revenge by completely destroying the Taira Clan. Yoritomo was then appointed Sei Tai Shogun [General against the Barbarians] by the Emperor and afterwards founded the first Bakufu Shogunate. He relocated the capital to Kamakura, a city about 200 miles south of Edo [Tokyo] to insure control of the Tokaido Road, one of the two roads leading into Edo, the largest city in eastern Japan. The Tokaido road is very close to the Kanto Plain the largest food-producing region in Japan. Consequently, who ever controlled the food supply could easily feed an extremely large standing army and subsequently control the nation. Yoritomo had his brother, Yoshitsune declared a traitor because he was extremely jealous of his popularity within the Clan. [Japanese history identifies the famous Warrior monk Benkei as a close friend to Yoshitsune. Some historians also identify Yoshitsune as being the first Samurai to commit Seppeku. And others state he escaped to China and changed his name to Chengiz [Gengis] Khan, while others state. That Yoritomo died as a result of a fall from a horse. His two sons, Minamoto Yoriie [1182-1204] and Minamoto Sanetomo [1192-1219] became the second and third Shoguns, respectively. Hojo Tokimasa, Yoritomo’s father-in-law, became Regent Advisor and continued in this position after the death of Sanetomo proving to be a very capable leader and founded the Hojo Shogunate.

Minamoto no Yoshikiyo

Some sources state he was Minamoto no Yoshimitsu oldest son while others identify him as the second son of Minamoto Yorimitsu. He founded the Kai Genji Takeda branch of the Minamoto Clan after being appointed Daimyo of the Kai province. The Nakasendo Road was the only other road through this region that provided access to Edo, later known as the eastern capital [Tokyo].

Takeda Nobumitsu 1162 - 1248

He reorganized the different methods of combat and named them Genji﷓no﷓Heiho [The Warrior Arts of the Genji Clan].

1482 A.D.

Considered as the beginning of The Sengoku Jidai [The Age of Wars], it was an era whereby constant warfare swept unchecked across Japan until about the year 1558 A.D. This era began as a result of the overall decline of the centralized civil power of the Emperor and the military power of the Shogun, and was marked by cycles of intermittent, brutal and violent warfare that took place between various clans as these different groups attempted to secure control of the Imperial Court. The violence of this period found Clan genocide being practiced as numerous families and clans were completely wiped out! This era was brought to a close Oda Nobunaga when he was given a directive by the Emperor Ogimachi to bring an end to the bloodshed. After successfully ending the fighting Oda Nobunaga installed Ashikaga Yoshiaki as Shogun, but the Imperial Court opposed this appointment and ordered the Daimyo Imagawa to raise an army to defeat Oda Nobunaga and his followers. Oda Nobunaga’s armies met and defeated Imagawa and Nobunaga removed Yoshiaki as the Shogun and appointed himself to this position under the pretext that one of the three sacred treasures of Japan [the Jewels] were held in trust in his province. However, since Oda Nobunaga was not a blood descendant of the Minamoto Clan his actions alienated Takeda [Shigen] Harunobu, Shingen withdrew his support from Nobunaga and they became bitter enemies.

Takeda, Harunobu [Shin Gen - one translation could be construed as "True Minamoto," but it depends on the actual ideogram] 1520 - 1573

Passing on the arts of Military Strategy knwon as Kosyu Ryu Gunpo, he later wrote Shingen Hatto - a Code of Provincial Law. History records becasue he was very sickly as a child that his father sent him to a Buhhdist Monastary, but later Shingen drove his father into exile, forced a younger brother and one of his own son’s to commit Seppuku. These actions have caused many historians to view him as having been a ruthless individual. But these events only took place after learning that his father had planned to deprive him of his birthright despite the fact that he was the oldest child, and it appears that his actions were intended to prevent any rebellion. Yet, in spite of this seemingly brutal behavior other historians identify him as a man possessing extremely high morals and further note that while most contemporary Daimyo were known to be cruel task masters, he is acknowledged as an exceptional leader because he was able to maintain a standing army without imposing severe taxes upon his subjects or driving his province into bankruptcy. Listed below are a few of his more notable retainers, some of whom were responsible for in-depth development of the martial arts of Hojo, Yamage, Sanada, Arisawa, Kosyu Kasaiha and Kobayakawa Tominaga.

Sanada Masayuki, noted for his mastery of Senpo [guerrila warfare] and Ninjitsu.

Sanada Yukimura, an expert in Shinobe [espionage] and Ninjitsu [Infiltration].

Sanada Yukitaka, a noted master of Senpo [guerrila warfare].

Yamamoto Kansuke, wrote “Heiho Okugi Sho” in 1580 A.D., [The Inner Secrets of Military Strategy], considered to be the ultimate Martial Arts book of its day

Obata Kanbei, known in Takeda traditions as having been a fearless warrior.

Obata Kagenore, a specialist in Kosyu Ryu [Military Strategy] and an ancestor of Obata Toshishiro, the founder of modern Shinkendo. Historical documents place him at the battle of Sekigahara serving in the army of Tokugawa Ieyasu. Later one of his sons, Obata Kagenori founded a school of military science in Edo [Tokyo]. It must be noted here that the Obata Clan were originally supporters of the Taira during the Heike Wars.

Takeda Katsuyori d. 1582

A son of Takeda Shingen, he created a mounted force of 15,000 Samurai that were considered the finest of its day and practically invincible. But in 1575, at the battle Nagashino 3,000 peasants armed with muskets were positioned behind a palisade and in less than one hour their concentrated firepower took the lives of 12,000 Kai﷓Genji﷓Takeda Samurai and ended forever the dominant position that had been held by the Takeda Clan since the end of the 12th century when Minamoto Yoshikikyo had been appointed as Daimyo to the Kai Han by his brother Minamoto Yoritomo, the founder of the first Bakafu Shogunate.

1582 A.D.

Later in this same year Takeda Katsuyori armies were once again attacked by the Oda Nobunaga who was now allied with Tokugawa Iyeyasu. Faced with overwhelming odds Takeda Katsuyori committed Seppuku rather than surrender or be captured. The overthrow of the Ashikaga Shogunate, the defeat of the armies of the Takeda Clans at the battle of Nagashino in 1575 and death of Takeda Katsuyori in 1582, ended the dominant power of the Minamoto and Takeda Clans in the Kai Prefecture. According to Nihon Goshin Aikido traditions Takeda Kunitsugu was invited by Ashina Moriuju to relocate to Aizu Prefecture [Han].

Takeda Kunitsugu b 1540 A.D.

The arts of of Aizu To’dome also called Aizu O’dome or Oshiki-uchi [Great Secret Methods of Combat] and Aizu Mizoguchi [specialized sword techniques] were taught to only the most senior Samurai.

1600 A.D.

In this year Tokugawa Ieyasu, the founder of the Tokugawa Shogunate defeats an army of eighty thousand at the Battle of Sekigahara lead by the Daimyo Ishida Mitsunari. In 1602, Tokugawa Ieyasu is appointed Shogun by the Emperor and because the Tokugawa are a direct blood-line descendant of the Minamoto Clan this appointment reflects the blessings of the Imperial Family. An appointment that no other clan dared to challenge! Ieyasu retired after serving only two years and arranges for his son, Hidetada to become the new Shogun, but not before using diplomacy, offering amnesty instead of demanding complete surrender to bring to an end the bloody wars that had engulfed Japan. Since the Takeda Tokugawa Clans were were each descended from the Minamoto Family, the Takeda easily became Fudai vassels of the Togukawa, serving each successive Shogun until the Edo Period came to a close in 1868.

Goto Tamauemon Tadayoshi 1644 - 1736

An Aizu Samurai, he is credited with creating the art of Daido Ryu which consisted of Tojutsu [sword], Kyuba [mounted archery for combat], sojutsu [spear] and Kajutsu [the art of gunnery and explosives].

1664 A.D.

The Aizu Clan Martial Arts school "Nisshinkan" became formally established in Wakamatsu and begins teaching Tenjin Shin'yo, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Mizu no shinto along with 5 other sword styles. According to traditions the Daito Training Hall was built in 1674, but this also taught literary courses including Chinese Classics [Jugaku], Religion [Shinto oyobi]. Calligraphy [Shuji], Etiquette [reishiki], Classical Music [gakaku], Mathematics [sugaku], Medicine [i gaku], Astronomy [temmon], along with a variety of other military arts such as Kyujutsu, Sojutsu [spear], Hojutsu [firearms and artillery], fortifications [chikujojutsu], horsemanship [bajutsu] and swimming [suibajutsu], the art of swimming in armor [suiei] and other optional courses including the Tea Ceremony [Cha no Yu - Sado], Poetry [shisaku], Impromptu Versification [Haiku - Sokuseki - Tenka] and Hunting [Toroi] Aizu Samurai were also masters of the art of Mizuni Shinto Ryu [quick draw of the sword, an art that was founded by Kobayashi Koemon Toshinari] along with a secondary system of jujutsu combat with and without armor.

Takeda Soemon [Takumi no Kami Soemon] - Takeda Sokaku’s grandfather]

He created hard and soft style techniques called “Aiki-In-Yo-Ho” [Harmony of the Mind which are based on the concepts of In and Yo [Japanese equivalents of Yin and Yang. He was a Master swordsman in the Mizoguchi Ha Itto and Koshu Ryu Gungaku traditions and in spite of being a man of small stature [like his more famous grandson Takeda Sokaku] was a Master of Genji no Heiho [The Secret Arts of the Genji Clan].

Saigo Chikamasa [Tanomo Hoshina Chikamasa] 1829 ﷓ 1905

A Shinto Priest and minister of the Shogun’s sanctuary at Nikko. Aikido traditions state that he also was a Master of Oshiki-uchi [Aizu O’dome / O’tome] techniques of combat, with or without weapons, an art developed according to the system of Aiki-in=yo-ho and taught only to the senior Samurai of the Aizu Clan.

Takeda Sokichi 1829 - 1905

The father of Minamoto no Masayoshi Takeda Sokaku. He was a large, powerful built man and held the rank of Ozeki, the second highest rank in Sumo [the highest being Yokusuna]. He was trained in the arts of Aizu O'dome [Oshiki-uchi], Hozoin ryu Takada sojutsu [Spear] from his father-in-law, Kurokichi Denguro, the art of Nizo Guchi, Ha Itto Ryu and Koshu Ryu Gungaku. Some historians state he did not take an interest in Takeda Ryu Aikijujitsu [Daito Ryu was more commonly called by this name because it was practiced exclusively by the Takeda Clan] as a result of his size [240 pounds] along with the fact that he was an Ozeki in Sumo. Two of his more notable students were Kano Jigoro and Shida [Saigo] Shiro, an illegitmate son whom he later adopted with the intention of making him the leading Samurai of the Takeda Clan and the heir to the Minamoto Martial Arts traditions.

L Fitzgerald

Kendoguy9
13th February 2003, 16:57
Dear L-Fitzgerald,

It seems you have gone to great lengths to come up with this history time line, however, I think there are some misconceptions and some of the facts need to be reevaluated. These may simply be errors from when you typed it all onto this forum, and if it is please excuse me. Or maybe I am in error in which case please also excuse me. I do not have time to cover the whole thing and I probably wouldn't even if I did.

One thing that really got me though was that you say the Nisshinkan was founded in 1664, and that among other things it taught Tenshin Shin'yo-ryu, and Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu. I find both of these hard to swallow at this time period, because Tenshin Shin'yo-ryu was not created until 1830. This would predate the founding of the ryu by almost 200 years. Tenshin Shin'yo-ryu and Daito-ryu are very nearly contemporary arts. Perhaps the ryu was taught at the Nisshinkan after it was founded post 1830? Which brings me to the Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu. It is my limited understanding that this ryu was a secret ryu of the Toshancea clan, studied by every Tosa samurai upper or lower class (hence the two divisions of this ryu today). The stories I have heard is that Eishin-ryu was not opened to the public and spread beyond Tosa until this century!

If the time line was slightly unclear and that these two arts were taught together after the founding of Tenshin Shin'yo-ryu, I would find that even harder to believe. The Aizu were staunch supporters of the Tokugawa during the Bakumatsu, waging the civil war well after the Tokugawa surrender. The Tosa however eventually became Imperial supporters with Choshu and Satsuma, and helped topple the Tokugawa. Before that they were more neutral then anything. It seems very unlikely that an Anti-Bakufu clan would allow it's secret clan art to be taught to and by Pro-Bakufu samurai during the Bakumatsu (the only time that both Tenshin Shin'yo-ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu COULD have been taught together).

Are my facts wrong or have I simply misinterpreted your post?

Thank you!

L-Fitzgerald
13th February 2003, 19:38
My notes show the following:

"after the death of Minamoto Yoshimitsu in 1185 A.D. the northern clans primarily represented by the Aizu, Minamoto [and their descendants the Takeda], along with the Chosu, Tosa and Tokugawa clans clashed time and time again with the Satsuma and Osumi clans as each struggled to gain control over the Imperial Court."

As for origins of various arts, I don't wish to appear dismissive of your comments, but could it be that for a lack of a definitive name the arts I noted were actually forerunners of the modern styles?

Listed below are the various sword schools in existance at end of the Edo Period. Unfortunately, I have not had the time to secure dates for all of these schools.

Araki Ryu:
Sword, founded by Araki [Mujinsai] Mataemon Minamoto Hidetsuna.

Chujo Ryu:
Sword, founded by Chujo Hagahide [ca. 1380]

Gan Ryu:
Sword, founded by Sasaki Kojiro who had studied Chujo Ryu

Ippo Ryu:
Sword, founded by Toda Ippo who had studied Chujo Ryu

Togun Ryu:
Sword, founded by Kawazaki Kaginosuke who had studied Chujo Ryu

Toda Ryu
Sword, founded by Toda Nagaie who studied Chujo Ryu

Hasegawa Ryu:
Sword, founded by Hasegawa Muneyoshi who studied Toda Ryu

Kanemaki Ryu:
Sword, founded by Kanemaki Jisai who studied Toda Ryu

Itto Ryu:
Sword, founded by Ito Ittosai Kagehisa who had studied Kanemaki Ryu

Yuishin Itto Ryu:
Sword founded by Kotoda Toshisada who studied Itto Ryu

Ono-Ha Itto Ryu:
Sword founded by Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki [1565 - 1628] who had studied Itto Ryu. This Ryu directly influenced Kendo, Daito Ryu Aiki﷓jutsu and Aikido

Kaji-Ha Itto Ryu:
Sword founded by Kaji Shinsaemon who studied Ono-Ha Itto Ryu

Nakanishi-Ha Itto Ryu:
Sword founded by Nakanishi Chuta [ca 1750] who studied Ono-Ha Itto Ryu

Hokushin Itto Ryu:
Sword, founded by Chiba Shudaku [1794 - 1855] who had studied Nakanishi-Ha Itto Ryu
Ichin Ryu:
Weapons with chains practiced by the Ashigari [foot soldiers].

Jikishinkage Ryu:
Naginata & Sword, Otani Shimosa no Kami Seiichiro, the last director of the Kobusho, the Shogun's Martial Arts school was a master of this style. Samurai trained in the arts of Muso Jikiden Eishin and Jikishinkage Ryu were considered as being unbeatable in combat.

Kage Ryu:
Sword, founded by Aisu Iko Hisatada [1452 - 1538]

Shin Kage Ryu:
Founded by Fujiwara No Nobutsuna [Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Noritsuna / Koizumi Ise no Kami Hidetsuna [1508? - 1577] who had originally studied the sword style of Kage Ryu. Today Shin Kage Ryu no longer teaches sword techniques but now follows a Karate/kempo heritage.

Yagyu Shin Kage Ryu:
A sword school founded by Yagyu Sekishusai Muneysohi [1527 ﷓ 1606]a former student of Fujiwara No Nobutsuna] and was later given the title Tajima no Kami. His son was appointed Ometsuke, Chief of Police to the Shogun.

Taisha Ryu
Sword was founded by Marume Kurando no Suke Tessai [1540 - 1629]

Hikida Kage Ryu:
Sword founded by Hikida Bungoro Kagetomo [1573? - 1605?]

Shin gyoto Ryu:
Sword, also an off shoot of Shinto Ryu, it was founded by Iba Zesuiken Hideaki [1649 - 1713]

Jikishin Kage Ryu
Sword founded by Yadama Heizaemon Mitsunori after studying Shin Kage Ryu and Shinto Ryu

Shido Munen Ryu:
Sword founded by Fukui Heizaemon Mitsunori after having studied Shin Kage Ryu and Shinto Ryu

Kashima-Shinryu:
This school claims having been founded during the Heian period [A.C.E. 794 - 1185], and then reorganized in the late 15th century. This Ryu teaches 12 military disciplines including Bujutsu, Kenjutsu - Batto-jutsu, Naginata, Sojutsu, Kenjutsu-tachiai [sword against other weapons], Shuriken-jutsu, Jujutsu, Kenpo, Jo-jutsu, Bo-jutsu, Kaiken-jutsu or Tanto-jutsu and Tasuki-dori also known as Hobaku-jutsu or Hojo-justu

Kashima Shinto Ryu / Shinto Ryu:
Also known as Bokuden Ryu, it was founded by Tsukahara Bokuden Takamot[o-a-i ?][not sure of the last letter] [1490 - 1572] it teaches only sword arts, its parent school was Shinto Ryu.

Arima Ryu:
Sword founded by Arima Yamato no Kami Motonobu who studied Shinto Ryu

Ippa Ryu:
Sword founded by Morooka Ippasai who studied Shinto Ryu

Tennenrishin Ryu:
Sword founded by Kondo Kuranosuke Osahiro who studied Shinto Ryu

Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo:
This school teaches the use of the Jo against a sword, it was founded by Muso Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi and its parent school was Shinto Ryu
Tenshoshin Jigen Ryu:
Sword founded by Setoguchi Bizen no Kami Masamoto who studied Shinto Ryu

Togo Jigen Ryu:
Sword, founded by Togo Higo no Kami Shigetake [1563 - 1643] who had studied Tenshoshin Jigen Ryu

Yakumaru Jigen Ryu:
Sword, founded by Yakumaru Hyoe Kanekatsu who had studied Tenshoshin Jigen Ryu

Kito Jujitsu Ryu:
Some sources state this style also was called Kito-kumiuchi and later changed to Kito-ryu Judo by Suzuki Kuninori. This was a style of Jujitsu practiced solely by the Ashigari [low ranking foot soldier’s] its former masters included Iso Nasachi and Iikudo Tsunetoshi, who taught Kano Jigoro. This style contained approximately 97 techniques that were used for hand-to-hand combat and contained 21 techniques meant for use while the combatants were completely clad in armor. All of these techniques used principles of kuzushi [unbalance movements] that are the key to the throwing techniques found in modern Judo.

Maniwa Nen Ryu:
Founded by Higuchi Sadatsugu it focused on the teachings of jujitsu and sword

Itto Shoden Muto Ryu
Sword, founded by Yamaoka Tesshu [1836 - 1888] who had studied Hokushin Itto Ryu and is considered to have been one of Japan’s most famous swordsman.

Tadanari-Ha Itto Ryu
Sword founded by Ito Tadanari [1603 - 1670] who studied Ono-Ha Itto Ryu

Mizoguchi-Ha Itto Ryu
Sword, founded by Mizoguchi Shingozaemon Masakatsu who had studied Tadanari-Ha Itto Ryu

Kogen Ryu:
Sword, founded by Henmi Yoshitoshi who had studied Mizoguchi-Ha Itto Ryu

Kyoshin Meichi Ryu:
Sword, founded by Momoi Hachirozaemon Naoyoshi who had studied Itto Ryu, Shin Kage Ryu and Toda Ryu

Mugai Ryu:
Sword, founded by Tsuji Getten [1649 - 1727} who had studied Yamaguchi Ryu however, no information is available on Yamaguchi Ryu

Mujushin﷓Ken Ryu:
Spiritual Kenjutsu founded by Odagiri Sekiei.

Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu:
A sword school founded by Minamoto Shigenobu Hayashizaki Jinsuke

Nen Ryu:
Sword, founded by Soma Shiro Yoshimoto [Jion] [1351 - ?]

Nisshikan:
Established by the Aizu clan in 1664, it taught a variety of Arts such as Tenjin Shin'yo, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Mizu no Shinto. Five other sword styles were taught to the Ashigari. Other Genji no Heiho arts, such a Ogasawara and Takeda Ryu [forms of mounted archery - Kyushu], were only taught to senior Samurai. In 1674, the Daito Mansion was built and later Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, was taught to the Hokkaido Police by Takeda Sokaku.

Niten Ichi Ryu
Sword, founded by Miyamoto Musashi [1584 ﷓ 1645] he also called it Emmei Ryu, the swords of Heaven and Earth. This is the only style that used both swords simultaneously.

Omori Ryu:
Sword founded by Omori Rokurosaemon Masamitsu who had studied Yagyu Shin Kage Ryu and Ogasawara Ryu

Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu
Sword, founded by Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu [ca. 1600]

Tamiya Ryu:
Sword, founded by Tamiya Shigemasa who studied Hayashizaki Ryu

Muraku Ryu:
Sword, founded by Nagano Nurakusai Ginro Nasatsugu who studied Hayashizaki Ryu

Hoki Ryu:
Sword, founded by Katayama Hoki no Kami Hisayasu who studied Hayashizaki Ryu

Sekiguchi Shinshin Ryu:
Sword, founded by Sekiguchi Ujimune [1598 - 1670] who studied Hayashizaki Ryu

Hasegawa Eishin Ryu
Sword, founded in the early 18th century by Hasegawa Chikara no Suke Hidenobu who studied Hayashizaki Ryu

Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu
A sword style also founded by Hasegawa Chikara no Suke Hidenobu

Muso Shinden Ryu:
A sword style also founded by Hasegawa Chikara no Suke Hidenobu who studied Hayashizaki Ryu

Shin Keito
Technique & mind of the Sword, founded by Matsuura Seizan [B: 1760]

Takenuchi Ryu:
Sword, founded by Takenuchi Hisamori, he later called this Art Kogusoku.

Tendo Ryu:
Sword, founded by Saito Denkibo Kanehira

Tennenrishiryu:
A little known school of Kenjutsu, one of its last masters was Kondo Isami. In 1864, in Kyoto Kondo Isami and three of his students came upon approximately 30 or so “Sonjoha” imperialist Samurai. In the ensuring conflict all of his companions were disabled, but, the outcome found nine assailants being killed and approximately twenty-three others being captured and Kondo being completely unharmed, a testament to his sword skills.

Tensinmegen Ryu:
Sword

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu:
Founded in 1447 by Iizasa Choisai Ienao [1387? ﷓ 1489], it claims to be the oldest traditional Ryu in existence today in Japan.

L-Fitzgerald

Kendoguy9
13th February 2003, 21:01
Dear L-Fitzgerald,

I would be interested in seeing your sources for your information regarding the Nisshinkan. As for the quote in the first paragraph:

"after the death of Minamoto Yoshimitsu in 1185 A.D. the northern clans primarily represented by the Aizu, Minamoto [and their descendants the Takeda], along with the Chosu, Tosa and Tokugawa clans clashed time and time again with the Satsuma and Osumi clans as each struggled to gain control over the Imperial Court."

You are talking about a time period several hundred years before the time I am speaking of. I do not know much about the era you are refering to because all of my studies have focused on the 19th and 20th centuries.

By the 19th century any alliances that Chosu and Tosa has with the Tokugawa were gone, and they were sided with the Satsuma clan and helped form the Meiji restoration.

As for the ryu I only know of one each of the Tenshin Shin'yo-ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu, although that doesn't mean much. The Tenshin Shin'yo ryu was as I stated before founded in 1830, by Iso Mataemo Minamoto no Masatari. If memory serves it's name is derived from the name of two different schools that the founder blended together to make his ryu. I find it very unlikely that such a name would come from two different sources. If you look at the first Koryu Book by Mr. and Mrs. Skoss, Meik Skoss has a whole chapter devoted to this ryu. It is very detailed and I am sure he would have mentioned there being another ryu with the same name (does he? I don't have my copy handy). His sources are also far more exhaustive then most people's. So unless new evidence is brought to light I do not see how Tenshin Shin'yo-ryu could have been taught in 1664. How long did this Nisshinkan last? Maybe it adopted Tenshin Shin'yo-ryu in the 1800's? At any rate I don't think it matters very much because there is very little in common with Tenshin Shin'yo-ryu and Daito-ryu (different operating principles).

The Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu is more likely to have been taught in 1664, but as it was a secret art lorded over by the Tosa (and as I understand it, unknown in Japan until this century!) I would find it unlikely. The ryu was founded by Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu (1542-1621). Although it did go through some name changes. I will try to dig up some of my old references to it when I have more time.

gambatte!!!

L-Fitzgerald
13th February 2003, 21:32
I was referring to the Namboku Cho Wars, the Onin and the Sengoku Jidai [Age of the country at war]. I'll forward a list of books used for this research, but must apologize since I did not make any "crib notes" that would give specific reference for this data. As for the Tosa alliance, these same sources do state that the Tosa [or at least some of this clan] were allied with the Tokugawa, just as some Aizu members were to be found on both sides during Bakumatsu [War].

Many in the west confuse the fact that the Meiji Restoration was not a movement endorsing opening Japan to the west, but rather one that wanted to keep Japan closed off from the world. And that Japan wasto be opened to the west, under their terms. Thus the Restoration was an internal one gendered once more by different clans vying to rule Japan, either by directly controlling the Imperial Court or in consort with it. Although the Emperor is now nothing more than a figure head, and one could state that the American Shogun MacArthur and the Supreme Allied command caused this to happen, however, it is the view of some historians, and authors that Japan may once more revert to an Imperial Rule, and that this may occur within the next 40 to 50 years.

L Fitzgerald

PS It pays to be slightly skeptical with regard to sources since I have found a number of contradictions in various works, including those written by Gaijin that are "in country" in Japan. So it pays to take all of it with a large grain of salt, especially since many have more than just a scholar's interest when putting this information out for public consumption.

Nathan Scott
13th February 2003, 22:01
[Post deleted by user]

Ron Tisdale
13th February 2003, 22:16
I wonder Nathan, perhaps for posts of more than say, 50 words, sources should be required?

Ron Tisdale

L-Fitzgerald
13th February 2003, 22:22
Some of these books regarding pre-Meiji ryus were written in the late 60's and early 70's, however there are many others including notable authors such as Obata Sensei, Dr Karl Friday, Domm Draeger, Saito Sensei, Stanley Pranin, Sato Hiroari, Harry Cook, along others such as Edward Behr, Herbert P. Bix, Jared Taylor also present more than just Martial Arts information, and when all of it is blended together provides a starting point for understanding "Modern Japan" and the culture that came to shape 20th century history.

In addition other organizations such as Nihon Token Hozon Kai [Japanese Sword Preservation Society, Tokyo, Japan] and a host of publishers such as Charles Tuttle, Kodansha are also excellent sources for information, and the book list mentioned identifies each of the publishers behind these works.

L Fitzgerald

L-Fitzgerald
13th February 2003, 22:33
Ron:

Feel free to go to a Barnes and Noble or Amazon site and type in the author's names, but then I did offer this list some time ago, but no one appeared to be interested. However the author's just cited are just some of the same ones that were offered back then. And without scholarly claims except that my own information is nothing more than notes made over a 27 year period of time, along with the books used, and accrued during this same period.

I'm not saying that it is the end source of information, but merely offering to share, without any prejudices whatsoever, information along with their sources that have been gathered over the past 1/4 century, and maintaining a fair and open-minded approach regardless of the source.

Ron Tisdale
13th February 2003, 22:37
This is the problem though...

These sources you list did a lot of hard work...they put in some cases their careers on the line to ferret out information, coalate it, publish it, etc. Now, you come along and produce a mish mash of their work, some of it accurate, some not, very little actually attributed to the correct people. So you not only disrespect their work by not giving proper credit where it is due, you also disrespect us by not giving an accurate picture of who wrote what. Now some of the information might be something Stanley Pranin wrote and it might even be recognizable...juxtaposed with something else which is now known to be completely inaccurate. All presented as if someone actually knows what they are talking about.

But hey, that's just my opinion, and as always, you may do as you wish.

Oh, and by sources, in this case, I mean sources **contained within the body of the text**, since the material is so jumbled, there would be no other way to distinguish one from another.

Ron Tisdale

Ps

I own most of the books by many of the authors...thanks.

L-Fitzgerald
13th February 2003, 22:42
for I neglected to identify one source that is not listed in my notes. It is that of Dr. Tadashi Kikoka, former Director of Asian Studies at Seton Hall University, now retired and teaching in Ryad, Saudi Arabia. I had the pleasure of making his acquaintance approximately 11 years ago, and helped him when he was having a problem with his car. [as a former Import Representative I was able to guide him in addressing his concerns with the local OEM representative.] In return I asked him to review much of the Pre-Meji information found in my notes. He was a fountain of information, and before leaving for Saudi Arabia presented me with a Naval Landing Forces Sword he had acquired when he first came to the United States around the middle 1950's.

L Fitzgerald

Brently Keen
14th February 2003, 04:21
With all due respect, I would like to point out that the above compiled "notes" are not at all what I would consider a reliable or accurate source of history concerning Daito-ryu, much less a consensus of any kind representing the views DR practitioners regarding the orgins of their art.

There are just far too many errors, as well as completely unverifiable bits of (mis)information mixed in with the more well known characters and facts of Daito-ryu history to be taken seriously. The problem with these notes is that many of the sources for the information contained within are known to be very inaccurate (on that much most of the DR community would probably agree). Some of the things presented above are even clear misquotes of those sources. Making the information presented even less reliable.

I would strongly caution against repeating or sharing anything from such notes - as it only leads to more misinformation and confusion, especially to those who may be unfamiliar with the subject matter.

If I've learned anything, in last few years, it's that combatting these sorts of errors point by point is growing increasingly pointless. The nonsense and errors just wind up getting repeated so often that they either become so familiar or gradually couched within the familiar, as to seem to be correct, or at least commonly accepted.

IMHO, it's not even worth arguing anymore (that the spelling of numerous famous individual's names are incorrect - that several of the ryu listed above as being taught in the Nisshinkan were not yet even founded at that time, as Nathan pointed out - or that neither Jigoro Kano or Shiro Saigo were ever students of Sokichi Takeda, etc...) much less pointing out all the other errors in such posts.

Mr Fizgerald no doubt simply wished to answer Mr Ross' inquiry - and perhaps impress with his knowledge and resourcefulness - but intentions aside, the presentation of notes as an answer to an inquiry assumes some authority of those notes, sort of like lecture notes taken in an educational course, but with or without footnotes, or listed sources, or even citing chance encounters over a decade ago with additional unlisted authorities such as retired University Directors, now teaching in Saudi Arabia. The presentation of a nice sword from such an esteemed and presumably knowledgable fellow for helping with his car problems, does nothing to validate the content of the above notes - regarding pre-meiji history in general, much less Daito-ryu history in particular - if when he does not even spell "Meiji" correctly.

The whole thing should just be politely dismissed as full of unreliable information (imo). Not to mention that the question Peter raised at the top of this thread was addressed to those in the AJJ community, and he wanted to know the consensus of that community - despite the many differences among us - I don't think the above notes fairly represent the views of ANY among the authentic Daito-ryu community that I'm aware of. And therefore could hardly represent a consensus among those views regarding the orgins and history of Daito-ryu.

I think when it comes to researching history or specifically answering historical questions, it's not so much about compiling lumps of information from as many possible sources and maintaining a "fair and open minded" approach regardless of said sources - as much as it is about discerning reasonably to the best of our ability, the validity and accuracy of those sources and the information given by them. Among serious practitioners and researchers of Daito-ryu there are many differences of opinion and theories about all sorts of things - but there are also less disputed facts, and generally accepted theories, and those could be narrowed to a "general" consensus of sorts - most within the DR community would agree on the common points anyway.

If you want to know what is truly known of the orgins of DR, then go seek a legitimate DR school in which to learn, and train and there discover what is known of Daito-ryu's orgins historically and what is/was taught traditionally, as well as the various theories about the more mysterious, and lesser known aspects. Short of doing that, you could always avail yourself of the fine resources, books, articles and interviews of legitimate DR masters, serious researchers, and historians that are available in Japanese as well as in English, and then compare what you find there with the archives here on this forum and over at www.aikidojournal.com just remember that much still remains to be discovered within the tradition, that is not part of the "public" record, as well as what remains to be discovered by additional "outside" scholarly research.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

L-Fitzgerald
14th February 2003, 11:50
:o

Contradictions and examples of "editorial license" have been noted in many of today's "semi-official" publications, including AJ, but then I've never put myself in the position of judging what author was "right or wrong." Over the years all of this information has been reviewed with noted historian, College professors and people directly affiliated with DRAJJ in an effort to ensure accuracy. As for mispelled names this may be the result of trying to make sense of the three different systems in use today, the Hepburn [Hebon-shiki], the Offical [Kunrei-shiki] system, almost obsolete, and the Japanese [Nihon-shiki]. The gentleman asked a question and I offered an answer, nothing more. And since he is approximately 40 years younger he has the time to cross check this data, and learn for himself. Or he can listen to all those that were there ahead of me with their responses.......but then it appears to remain "a small matter."

As for accurate sources, then once more I offer to present these titles to permit others to identify which of these should be "Banned in Boston"

L Fitzgerald

:)

L-Fitzgerald
14th February 2003, 12:47
Mr Ross:

I recommend reviewing the posts over on the Jujitsu Forum, and perhaps reach out to some of those individuals with your questions.

Mr Cunningham's comments regarding Japanese versus English very enlightening.

L Fitzgerald

StephenBaker
15th February 2003, 23:48
As I have seen evolving in discussions "all over the place", there is the issue of accurate source information with respect to the koryo. Would those who feel inclined please provide your views on the information contained in the "Bugei Ryuha Daijiten - 1978 Edition ". I am asking with respect to the Japanese version, not a translation or other summary document. Thank you in advance for your responses.

Regards

StephenBaker
16th February 2003, 00:47
Originally posted by StephenBaker
As I have seen evolving in discussions "all over the place", there is the issue of accurate source information with respect to the koryo. Would those who feel inclined please provide your views on the information contained in the "Bugei Ryuha Daijiten - 1978 Edition ". I am asking with respect to the Japanese version, not a translation or other summary document. Thank you in advance for your responses.

Regards

I apologize if the above question bothers anybody as repetitive. I did not realize that there were so many comments about the Daijiten already on the server.