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a_adika
17th February 2003, 14:19
Hi,

I would like to try to open a discussion about training on both sides (right and left) as opposed to training on one side.
I am not talking about practicing Kihon, which naturally should be practiced on both sides, but about kata and henka.
Over the years I have heard many views on this and would like to see what people think about it.
When I first started training, training on both sides was always stressed. I was very surprised the first time I trained with someone who only wanted to train on one side. I once discussed it with Nagato Shihan and he said that we should train on one side because taijutsu is whole body training and not only one sided training. I have never heard Hatsumi senseis opinion on this. I hope that we can all share our views on this subject.

Thank you,

Alon Adika

Dani Koryu
17th February 2003, 16:02
Of course we have to practice both sides movements, sabakis, etc...but not trying to do the technique with the rigth hand/foot and after that doing the same with the left hand/foot
I'm not going to loose my time trying to do the things with the hand I'm not used to do it.
In a shinken gata situation what are you gonna do? Use your "bad" hand?
Is the same with the weapons. Have you ever seen anybody with the katana in the left hand?
I'm never going to do the same things with my left that I do with my right. That's obvious, at least for me !

Good Training !

m harper
17th February 2003, 16:28
I think you should practice some on both sides. After breaking my right knee had no choice but learn to use my left side. Injuries occur in training and will happen in a fight. If you only do one side and that side is not working you will have to use your weak side.

Mark Harper
Bujinkan Houston Dojo

The Tengu
17th February 2003, 17:09
I think that kihon, kata, and sabaki should be practiced on both sides of the body.

By nature, truly spontaneous henka are not likely to occur the same way twice, regardless of which side is used.

I also believe that practicing a particular henka over and over takes the technique you "created" out of the henka category and puts it into the kata category. Once that happens, you should practice it on both sides since it is now your Very Own Personal Kata™.

Oni
17th February 2003, 21:10
I have heard this before...and I know I have heard it as coming from Nagato sensei before as well. For my own personal training however I train everything on both sides...waza, kihon, or whatever. If I only train something on one side I feel very unbalanced. When I first started the left side used to be very awkward for me. Now however although i generally can't perform 'as well' on the left...I can generally perform left or right without too much thought.

You never know when something may happen to disable your 'good' side...or when you may have to use your bad side in addition to your good side. I am a total proponent of not having a good vs. bad side. I have never heard what I consider a good reason for not doing both. Perhaps you do learn how to move on both sides through osmosis...but I feel you will learn just as well by doing both sides in the first place.

This seems to me to be very akin to the argument that by practicing always on our feet we will be good on the ground without practicing on the ground. Or perhaps the idea that a punch is a punch so by only practicing vs. one style of punch we will be prepared for any punch. Perhaps this is true...but I for one see no harm in practicing in many different ways and with many different concepts. If the overall issue is the concept WHY NOT practice different attacks/sides/terrains to reach that concept.

In the end to each his own I guess. If practicing only on one side is doing it for you, great. We must be responsible for our own training.

shinbushi
17th February 2003, 21:31
This article that used to up at http://people.atl.mediaone.net/thunderswan/training_article.htm
Since I made a copy I will post it here


Learn Twice as Fast with Half the Training

One of the first things I learned about martial arts training is to practice the technique on sides, the right and the left. This kept our body in balance and trained both sides equally on the feeling of the movement. This was the way many others and I have practiced for many years.

During my last trip to Japan Nagato-sensei asked me if I trained on both sides. I answered, "Of course," feeling sure that was the answer he was looking for. He shook his hand at me and said that I didn't need to do that. Flabbergasted at his statement I asked him to repeat himself. He again stressed that I didn't need to do that -- training on one side is enough. I said, "Yeah, but what about balancing the training on both sides. My experience has been that students who only train on one side can get good on one side but the other side remains like a beginner." He gave a sly grin and said, "Well, the 'good side' really isn't good then." He could see that I was utterly confused and went on to explain what he meant.

In taijutsu the body works as a whole, not in sides. When you train, work only on one side. That side gets better and better. Soon you will reach a level where the body will automatically transfer the learning of the trained side to the untrained side. If you trained the conventional way, it would take you twice as long to get good because each side is being trained. Of course there are some things you should train on with sides, ukemi, kihon happo forms, and sanshin no kata. The henka and other training to get the feeling of the techniques should be done only on one side.

Needless to say, I was shocked. I had been training for over sixteen years and could have gotten this good in only eight?! It seemed too good to be true. My own experience had shown me that the exact opposite was true. Or so I thought. I still had some doubt about this. The next day Hatsumi-soke was teaching at the Hombu Dojo. A little way into the training he stressed to everyone the exact same thing!! Nagato-sensei also added to what Soke was saying. During the tea break I went to Hatsumi-soke and asked him about this. Why does this kind of training work? He again reiterated what Nagato-sensei told me the night before that the body works as a whole and that you don't need to train both sides. Once one side gets to a certain level of proficiency then the knowledge transfers over automatically. He emphasized that kenjutsu training is all one-sided, right hand in front, yet Sensei can switch hands on the sword at will to create better distance or angling. In some of the ryu-ha densho the waza specifically state to punch with the right hand first but that is obviously not always going to be the case in a real situation. Takamatsu-sensei never stressed to him to train on each side to keep balance in training. And now that I write this, I don't think I've never heard Sensei stress to train on each side. Another student there that day added that the Feldenkrais training is also one-sided.

On the way home from training I started thinking. If this method of training is true then why can't I write as well with my left hand? I think that it's because writing is a detailed act. That is something in which specific muscles in your hands and arm perform. Taijutsu is a whole-body action. Okay, then why can't I swing a baseball bat as well with my left? My right side may not be good enough. If pro baseball players are always getting coaching on their swing, hip rotation, stance, etc., then certainly my ability is severely lacking. I also don't play baseball everyday. Later that day I watched my little niece 22 months of age walking around, she didn't have to practice stepping with the right foot first and then practice using the left foot first. When she walks up the steps she doesn't fall when she steps up with her left rather than her right. So I really began to believe this training is the best way to improve. I certainly don't think Nagato- and Hatsumi-sensei sat down and decided to play a joke on everyone to see how many people they could dupe with an outrageous lie. And as I said before, during my many years training in Japan not once have I heard Hatsumi-sensei stress training on both sides.

To those who wish to practice this please note that not all physical training should be done in this manner. If you go to the gym and only workout your right side thinking the left muscles will get stronger, you're sadly mistaken. If you use taijutsu as a workout and not for budo training (and, yes, there is a difference) you should use both sides. The body is symmetrical and works best in symmetry. If the muscles get bigger and stronger on one side more than the other, you've done more harm than good. Another example is punching drills. If you only hit the bag with the right and expect the left to take the same impact stress as the right, you'll be sadly disappointed.

I advise everyone who has read this article to take this message to heart and start training in this manner. Sensei told me once that there are too many people out there who question what he tells them. The only way he got to where he is today is by closely listening to and following what Takamatsu-sensei told him. He didn't question it or deny it. In many cases it took him many years after Takamatsu-sensei's death to come to a full understanding of something that Takamatsu-sensei told him many years ago. This is the same with us. We are but insects holding on to the horse's tail. If we hang on we will go far. Soke keeps stressing to me the importance of finding good teacher and sticking with him. Well, in my opinion, there is no better teacher than Soke, and this is how he has told us to train. This insect is hanging on for a long ride. I hope you will too.

shinbushi
17th February 2003, 21:34
Remember that boxers usually start out with a left lead stance. They tend to jab with left and hook or cross with the right.
How many think that the high level pro boxers could not fight south paw if they had to?

The Tengu
17th February 2003, 21:47
Oh yeah, something else I try to practice as often as I can is ukemi on both sides.

There's not much scarier in the dojo than taking a high & hard ukemi (you know the kind I'm talking about) off a left-sided omote gyaku the wrong way because it's your "bad side".

:D

shinbushi
18th February 2003, 17:33
The training one side refers to long complex kata like Renyo (Gyokko), Keitoh (Takagi), etc. Individual waza should be learnt on both sides.

Mike Williams
18th February 2003, 18:52
...this is an interesting topic.

In the system I train in, most techniques (as opposed to basics) are taught right-handed only (left-foot forward stance), left-handed stuff only gets introduced at black belt.

But for some reason when sparring I prefer a southpaw stance, and my main strike is a right jab. I'm extremely right-handed, so maybe there is 'security' in leading with your strong side. But I also find the entry to throws such as tai-otoshi, harai-goshi etc. and even the shoot much easier if I'm right foot forward. Yet this is not how we are taught in kata. Go figure.

The only exceptions are throws like o-soto-gari where you need to be on the outside of uke - I prefer to set these up from an orthodox stance. I'm sure all the stance-switching screws up my footwork and messes up my stand-up game (my striking is weak), but I'm not sure how best to proceed at the moment.

Cheers,

Mike

Oni
18th February 2003, 20:17
Originally posted by shinbushi
The training one side refers to long complex kata like Renyo (Gyokko), Keitoh (Takagi), etc. Individual waza should be learnt on both sides.

This is kind of interesting to me. If the transference theory holds true...why does it only hold true for some things and not others? This is the part of this that has never made sense to me. I don't truly see the difference between practicing a complex kata vs. kihon or individual waza. If transference occurs in this manner it should happen in all cases.

Oni
18th February 2003, 20:58
Some interesting points Jeff. In the exploration of this concept though my limbs are also of different length and size than yours, or than Hatsumi senseis. Therefore utilizing the flow of logic would it not be silly of me to mimic Hatsumi senseis right hand version of a waza. Also how does this apply for someone that IS left handed? Wouldn't many of the concepts be reversed in their brain in some manner?

Each persons entire perceptive range, awareness and motion will be slightly different. How is this difference from person to person different from the difference between right and left side?

John Anderson
18th February 2003, 21:26
Originally posted by shinbushi
The training one side refers to long complex kata like Renyo (Gyokko)
Then why, in the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, does Hatsumi Sensei tell you to practice Renyo on both sides?

Jay Bell
18th February 2003, 23:05
*chuckle* I was waiting for someone to bring that up, John :D

My thoughts...if someone is working on a "technique", then the principles and movements should be done on both sides. If the methods being done are conceptual, then work off of whatever happens to fall into place. If your body moves right...then right it is. Left...so be it.

shinbushi
19th February 2003, 02:02
Originally posted by John Anderson

Then why, in the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, does Hatsumi Sensei tell you to practice Renyo on both sides? :eek:
:eek::eek::eek:
I should have read my TCHRNM and my before throwing out random kata.

shinbushi
19th February 2003, 02:23
[Japanese encoding]
左技の&#20107[/Japanese encoding]
(Practice)The technique on the left side

Karyu
20th February 2003, 07:27
Being left-handed, I have no choice but to train on both sides, but I usually train on my left. It throws people off, but it also forces them to be a little more aware as they never know when i'll come at them left or right-handed. Good taijutsu and awareness are really relevant in case like that, especially against weapons which are coming at you on the "wrong" side.