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shinbushi
18th February 2003, 02:25
I saw this video on the Grace Move of the Month (http://www.gracieacademy.com/multimedia/motm0208.shtml)
It looks almost exactly like Musha Dori. Anyone know what they call it?

Yanosuke
18th February 2003, 03:22
Hmm, i dont know but he's funny, he's look like a robot.

Terry Ham
18th February 2003, 03:36
On the Gracie Jiujitsu episode one tape which is the Gracie method of teaching ( your first 40 lessons ) developed by Helio Gracie, it is list in the 18th lesson and is simple called shoulder grab...( this is the musha ) the next is shoulder grab with straight arm. ( go for musha and the arm goes straight) Hope this helps..


btw they also have oni kudaki against a knife attack:)

Noodles
18th February 2003, 04:01
At SKH's Ninja festival this past September, there were a number of gun defenses and a few other techniques that a friend I trust said looked very similar to some that he'd seen in a BJJ book.

Just another connection, FYI.

kimq
18th February 2003, 04:27
I assume that they know about moving their feet and relative positioning to make the technique more effective. I, therefore, assume that they are not showing those additional elements because there's no telling what kind of yahoo is studying their online content.

Kamiyama
18th February 2003, 06:06
When I was a teen and was a full time student of jujutsu, we did the same technique as musha dori. But it was called 'arm entanglement'.

I also have old jujutsu books with the technique in it.

kamiyama, ralph severe

tmanifold
18th February 2003, 07:01
That V lock is in a lot of martial arts. It just goes to show that good techniques are good techniques regardless of system.

Don Roley
18th February 2003, 10:34
You can find musha dori even in the textbooks of European martial arts. Take a look at this German manual from 1539, click on pages 8 and 9.

Here is the index. (http://perso.club-internet.fr/jfgilles/escrime/bibliotheque/auerswald/index.html)

The earliest I know of as an illustration is in 1410 in a manual by Fiore Dei Liberi, but I can't find that image on line to link to.

Just goes to show, the wheel is invented time and time again.

Elf Tengu
18th February 2003, 10:45
Very few techniques indeed are exclusive to any one art, but we do seem to have a compilation of the most effective in ninjutsu. There are several variations of Gyokko Ryu's musha dori even in taijutsu, with choices of takedown such as by either a kick or a lifting 'oompsy-daisy' of the trapped arm.

And a primitive version of onikudaki, usually always two-handed, is found in most military unarmed combat methods and many modern 'civilian' systems such as those taught in laughable two lesson Self Defence courses for women that the participants are expected to perfect instantaneously and retain for ever.

Gracie jujitsu is bound to have some techniques that resemble ours, but you don't see the general fluidity and taihen that we use. Look at Royce in his UFC fights, it's always the same old head on collison (albeit with an up-and-under)that typifies most martial arts in their modern day form. No moving around the opponent or use of lighter strikes to set up locks and throws. And he always seems to get away with a few front kicks as an opener too!

Having said this I think that beneath all it's proclamations, UFC is nowhere near as NHB as it proclaims to be, and that more than biting and eye-gouging are prohibited. You see no real joint locks, and we all know how easy the strongest elbow is to break, and very little digging at nerves either.

All good clean fun though!

pugilist
18th February 2003, 11:58
Yeah... BJJ is really stiff.. No flow there... LOL!
And they don't know anything about real jointlocks either... :rolleyes:

pugilist
18th February 2003, 13:30
But.. But It doesn't work against multiple opponents! :p

The Tengu
18th February 2003, 14:06
Good techniques are good techniques all over the world, since basic anatomy is the same everywhere.

There are only a few ways that you can break the shoulder of a human.

I mean, it just makes sense.


Any of these look familiar to you?

http://www.thehaca.com/images/np1.jpg
http://www.thehaca.com/images/np2.jpg
http://www.thehaca.com/images/codexw.jpg
http://www.thehaca.com/images/talf1.jpg
http://www.thehaca.com/images/duerer4.jpg

Bradenn
18th February 2003, 14:24
Originally posted by Shojin


I see three screens in front of me and am aiming for the one in the middle! :D
:D


Rocky IV, right?

Bradenn
18th February 2003, 14:28
While we're on the subject of the Gracies, does anyone remember some rumour a few months ago about how some of the Gracies went to a Bujinkan dojo (Ishizuka? Nagato?) and got a hiding.

Does anyone know the real story or is it just one of those urban myths? The whole "I can't mention names" business is just annoying. Either it happened or it didn't.

The public knows who Royce and the others have beaten and we also know about guys who have beaten the Gracies (e.g. Wallid Ismail). So what's the reason for all the secrecy?

Jay Bell
18th February 2003, 15:29
It wasn't the Gracies. Ask Alex Mordine about it...maybe he'll share the story :D

shinbushi
18th February 2003, 17:27
Originally posted by Shojin

find a REAL BLACK BELT in Gracie jiujitsu Not a blue belt or purple belt and not from some offshoot system and get on the mat,[/B]

I rolled with a Machado purple 2 weeks ago and it was amazing.
I was like, he is going for an armbar... start to escape.. wait I am caught somewhere else... escape to no wait tap tap tap.

I rolled with him twice and got tapped (very soft and sneeky) both from in his guard and on bottom.

Mike Passow
18th February 2003, 17:58
Mr. Ray is dead-on in defending BJJ.

No fluidity! No body movements in BJJ! LOL - Elf Tengu you *really* need to find some good BJJ people and roll with them. I'm serious. BJJ isn't the "World's Ultimate Art" to me - but there's really no need for such baseless criticism of their approach.

As for the UFC not being NHB - yes - many more regulations were added over time. Originally there were fewer rules.

>You see no real joint locks, and we all know how easy the
>strongest elbow is to break, and very little digging
>at nerves either.

You have simply *got* to be kdiding me when you say this. No real joint locks!? Ninpo must have the only REAL joint lucks, huh? *rolling eyes*.
Digging at nerves can't be relied upon to save you against a determined foe, I'm sorry to say. Haven't you seen how some people just don't react to certain points, or they simply ignore the pain? Also pinches and pokes aren't going to save you unless you have good positioning and timing in the first place. When you dig at some pain point in their arm - it's just going to piss some people off - unless you're using the pain to set them up for something else...

--

As for the techniques being similar - yup. Nothing new under the sun, unfortunately. The ONE time I thought I had come up with something truly innovative - to my chagrin I saw the same idea a few months later in a book written 20 years earlier. :) Then a year later someone told me his wrestling coach had taught him the same thing.

I can't tell you how many times I've had one of my martial arts friends come up to me and say, "Hey look at this new technique I thought of!" and they'd show me, and I'd say, "Yes, it's called BLAH, and martial arts X does it this way... whereas the martial art Y people tend to..." etc. :)

The secret is in the application... or so I think.

Yours,

Mike Passow
18th February 2003, 18:01
Good point on being tapped out.

My philosophy is - if you're not getting tapped out occasionally, or taking a hit that you couldn't avoid once in a while... you're simply not training with good enough people.

Yours,

tmanifold
18th February 2003, 18:47
Digging at the nerves is something grapplers have had to deal with for ever. I fought a Chin na guy in a NHB style fight once. I had him mounted and was going for a choke and he started to dig at a pressure point. He had to give up the pressure point and fight the choke longg before it start to bother me. Most experience grapplers will dig at nerves to open area's up but they are not as usful as a lot of people think.

As for the Gracies, I don't agree with a lot of what they say but for what they do they are the best. Pure ground fighting (particularly sport), they are with out equal (I should not that I consider the Machado's in that group, even though they are not "Gracies" by name).

chris friedman
18th February 2003, 19:12
Originally posted by kimq
I assume that they know about moving their feet and relative positioning to make the technique more effective. I, therefore, assume that they are not showing those additional elements because there's no telling what kind of yahoo is studying their online content.

It is funny that someone from a style that basically does not spar would make a comment like that. Here are guys who have fought full contact boxers and wrestlers that are 100 pounds heavier than them, judo/ jujutsu guys all in full contact. I used to hate training with guys like you. Pure theory. I trained in Bujinkan 9 years along with a whole bunch of other stuff and trained at Renzo Gracie's for 6 months. I would put a million on any blue belt there againt you, let alone a purple belt. They would be physically impossible to beat for most any pure bujinkan member. This is the truth. If this gets deleted then it is saying something about this place and the bujinkan. All I can say is put your money where your mouth is. If you can't prove it then it is pure theory.

shinbushi
18th February 2003, 19:27
Jeff I don't think he is a troll.
Chris, Not all BBT students are theory only.
As to who will tap whom. The person who can play their game best will win. Simple as that.

R Erman
18th February 2003, 19:43
Don't know about in the gracie system but normally, in most jujutsu systems techs like musha, ura and omote oni kudaki, figure four locks(keylocks)...etc, are normally referred to as ude garami(arm entaglement--as ralph said).

BTW, I agree with Rick, way to go David. Shows a lot of courage and temerity, not to mention honesty.

And Jeff, I agree, Sambo rocks.

p.s. good silat rocks too--if it's trained properly

The Tengu
18th February 2003, 19:46
Originally posted by Jeff Mueller
Kthxbye.LOL

Oni
18th February 2003, 20:52
Originally posted by chris friedman


It is funny that someone from a style that basically does not spar would make a comment like that. Here are guys who have fought full contact boxers and wrestlers that are 100 pounds heavier than them, judo/ jujutsu guys all in full contact. I used to hate training with guys like you. Pure theory. I trained in Bujinkan 9 years along with a whole bunch of other stuff and trained at Renzo Gracie's for 6 months. I would put a million on any blue belt there againt you, let alone a purple belt. They would be physically impossible to beat for most any pure bujinkan member. This is the truth. If this gets deleted then it is saying something about this place and the bujinkan. All I can say is put your money where your mouth is. If you can't prove it then it is pure theory.

Chris,

This is not going to get deleted...but if it were it would not be due to content. It would be due to your tone and attitude. If you really want to get your point across you may want to consider doing so in a mature and non hostile manner. Finally this forum is NOT a Bujinkan (or Genbukan, or Jinenkan, or blah blah blah) forum, although it has Bujinkan posters so what happens in this forum says nothing about the Bujinkan as whole...merely about the folks that participate in it that are Bujinkan members.

If you wish to participate here great, but if you participate in a rude, threatening, or insulting manner your posts will be deleted. I think we have had some really great posts here, and some very open and intelligent conversations as of late.

kimq
18th February 2003, 21:27
Originally posted by chris friedman


It is funny that someone from a style that basically does not spar would make a comment like that. Here are guys who have fought full contact boxers and wrestlers that are 100 pounds heavier than them, judo/ jujutsu guys all in full contact. I used to hate training with guys like you. Pure theory. I trained in Bujinkan 9 years along with a whole bunch of other stuff and trained at Renzo Gracie's for 6 months. I would put a million on any blue belt there againt you, let alone a purple belt. They would be physically impossible to beat for most any pure bujinkan member. This is the truth. If this gets deleted then it is saying something about this place and the bujinkan. All I can say is put your money where your mouth is. If you can't prove it then it is pure theory.

It would appear that you completely misunderstood what I wrote.

tenchijin2
19th February 2003, 00:02
I think the idea of proper body placement is misunderstood sometimes. I think there's a perfect spot for a technique... sometimes there are several spots which qualify. That may mean lining up right alongside in the case of mushadori, but just as often in less structured circumstances I've found that a quick tangle, even if I'm facing 3/4 on to the opponent, allows you to manipulate the spine pretty well. After watching the video, it seems that the technique is just shown 'as is'... to give people a starting point to work from. It's not a high class clinic for advanced jujutsuka. Besides, once the shoulder is locked as it is, you have some room for error on positioning (realizing that error WILL PROBABLY occur). There's nothing preventing the Tori from jamming the opposite shoulder, grabbing the neck and sweeping the leg, or any other controlling move.

I guess what I'm saying is that "things aren't always what they seem" to those of us watching the videos. Isn't that what we say about Hatsumi sensei often? I can't tell you how often I've been uke for a nasty throw that I was quite certain nearly killed me, only to see the video and be terribly unimpressed by my theoretical peril.

shinbushi
19th February 2003, 01:53
Originally posted by R Erman
BTW, I agree with Rick, way to go David. Shows a lot of courage and temerity, not to mention honesty.


Thank you for the nice comments
:nw: http://64.207.13.28/mysmilies/otn/love/icon_smile_blush.gif

R Erman
19th February 2003, 02:09
Temerity--reckless or foolhardy.

Tenacity--persistance, or adhering to something valued.

I reread my post and realized my mind was saying tenacity while unfortunately my fingers typed temerity. And I majored in English.

Oh well, I was at work and things were hectic.

tmanifold
19th February 2003, 03:26
Well the easy answer would be Rorion has good BJJ. However, I understand your question and it is a tough one. Is doing it correctly better than doing it effectively and effeciently? My only thought would be that the idea is if you do it correctly you will do it more effectively eventually.

kimq
19th February 2003, 04:47
Originally posted by Shojin
In other words, is not effortless effectiveness what good taijutsu is? or is it "looking" a certain way when moving?

I do not think they are mutually exclusive for the purposes of this technique.

Elf Tengu
19th February 2003, 10:31
Sorry, I didn't clarify what I meant.

I was referring to the head-on approach of Royce's opening gambit. It always looks almost identical in every fight. I see that once his opponent is off balance that there is plenty of movement, but you always know where he's coming from in the beginning. Most of us are probably overcome by the psychological aspect, that is, being in the position of knowing that martial artists with far more skill than ourselves have not been able to effectively counter the Gracie takedown. But look at the people who have worn him out, including the comparitively unskilled Kimo, as well as the likes of Mr Shamrock. Do you think Hatsumi or Tanemura sensei would offer such resistance in the form of pure stubborness and strength as Kimo did?

And what about all these people selling methods that purport to beat Brazilian jujitsu? Have these been fully evaluated yet?

The 'multiple attacker' school of thought is also extremely relevant outside the octagon. Do you think it would take 7 1/2 seconds for three of your mates to kick a BJJ expert in the head while he's working on you?

The Gracies, along with Ruas and all the other MMA artists have fantastic one-on-one competition arts, and probably don't need too much alteration to make them street usable against weapons and multiples, but let's face it, you would see none of what you see in the ring work against four knifemen on an icy pavement in the pitch dark.

I'd like to know the opinion of high ranking ninpo shihan, particularly the Japanese, as to what kind of counters we could use against BJJ. We certainly do plenty to make sure we aquit ourselves
against judo and other arts.

At the end of the day you can incorporate the best of BJJ and pretty much anything into your ninpo/budo taijutsu, but think how BJJ would expand if you tried it the other way round.

Are the koryu in our systems really that useless against such a new variation of jujutsu?

I don't think so, but as Shojin has said, most clubs don't put in the time that the Gracies do. How many formal kata do they have that include all the kneeling and formalities that the Bujinkan and even more so the Genbukan does? You've got to be talking an extra 20 minutes out of every hour spent in good sparring.

That's where we can learn. And some organisations that teach the nine schools already have!

Bradenn
19th February 2003, 14:17
Have the Gracies become McDojos or what?

Look at this!

http://www.gracieacademy.com/store/index.html

(use menu on left)

Is this what martial arts are about?

Mike Williams
19th February 2003, 14:35
Hey, if Sharp Phil can do it...

Cheers,

Mike

Bradenn
19th February 2003, 17:30
Interesting story Shojin. I have to agree with you that there is a problem.

Is the problem:

a) The material (i.e. techniques) is no good? or
b) The training is no good

By all accounts, Takamatsu had good Taijutsu and made it work to save his life plenty. So what has gone wrong between him and our generation?

shinbushi
19th February 2003, 17:35
Originally posted by Bradenn
Have the Gracies become McDojos or what?

Look at this!

http://www.gracieacademy.com/store/index.html

(use menu on left)

Is this what martial arts are about?
No what they teach is still effective, Bullshido taught ata McDojo is not.
But Horrion is a marketing god (Or actually maybe devil).
Many instructors have left because of his policies.
The Academy is down the road from me, so I get all the dirt :D :p

shinbushi
19th February 2003, 17:38
Originally posted by Shojin
Hi Guys,
So I am proud of him for stepping up and seeing first hand what I am on about. If he keeps up his desire for truth, he will be good!

Another convert for alive training :D :p

Bradenn
19th February 2003, 18:02
They can make his life hell but paradoxically he will be better than them?

Do you think at the end of the day, sparring, cross-training, alive training etc. is discouraged because of teachers' fears and jealousy that their students will surpass them?

I was interested by your point Shojin that some techniques for some situations are not there. Hypothetically, if Takamatsu ended up on the ground with Rickson Gracie in a fight to the death, would his lack of knowing BJJ make him lose? I know it is a moot point since he is dead now, but do you think Takamatsu's overall Taijutsu knowledge and experience would transfer itself to the situation he was in? Or do you actually need to have techniques for all situations? Put another way, do you believe the common claim that if your groundfighting (newaza) is bad, it is because your standing (tachiwaza) are bad?

Oni
19th February 2003, 18:16
Guys,

I really think it is inappropriate to make challenges or do the 'who would win' type thing when speaking of Takamatsu sensei. There is no way of possibly knowing, and quite frankly there is no real point in it.

I don't like it when folks do it with Nagato sensei and he is still with us.

Bradenn
19th February 2003, 18:31
I'm sorry Oni. You're right.
I guess I just got carried away with the discussion and Takamatsu was the best example I could think of of someone who had great Taijutsu and real life experience but yet didn't have Brazilian Jujutsu.
Won't happen again.

kimq
19th February 2003, 19:09
The quality of training is highly dependent on the instructor and his lineage back to Soke, I’m finding. “Good” is a relative term. “Good taijutsu” more so.

I’ve seen some schools that have awesome kamae and perfect kata, but can’t perform even slow henka worth spit. I point to the instructor, if fault must be blamed. They are not teaching intent, reality, or budo/jutsu. Everything is performed in the same neutral mindset as walking in the mall. Note that this mindset is not the same, at least in my mind, as being zeroed in conflict. There is no true thought invested in what is going on – they are merely going through the motions. Garbage in, garbage out.

A major step forward would be to engage some real feeling in everything explored. Nearly every time I work with someone, I imagine they intend to hurt me badly. This helps me get into a combative mindset. This does not mean I destroy my partner, but it better prepares me for variable speeds of attack. By no means am I invincible through this mindset – that’s not what I’m saying – but at least I am getting more of out what I am putting in compared to someone going through the motions. I’ve found this mindset has really assisted my randori responses to close-to-live attacks. I think that if more schools adopted this approach, they mind find that their students are a little more “reality effective.”

Realise that this is only one tool in the chest. By no means do I think that this is the be-all and end-all of training more realistically.

You are responsible for your training. Garbage in, garbage out. Names are just names.

Marc Renouf
19th February 2003, 23:54
Okay, I've heard a lot of crap about how Bujinkan guys suck at grappling and groundfighting unless they cross-train and whatnot. And you know what? It's just that: crap.

I have a friend that trains to compete semi-professionally in NHB fighting. His instructor is actually getting ready to compete in the preliminaries for the next UFC (I think his fight is the end of this month). Since I am on long-term travel and away from the dojo (the nearest Bujinkan dojo is like 4 hours away), he invited me to his gym to come and work out with them.

Glad for the opportunity to train, sweat, and get bruises, I took him up on it. Keep in mind that I know nothing about wrestling, and prior to training in the Bujinkan the most grappling experience I had was a few judo lessons way back when. So these guys are looking at me like I'm fresh meat and they're going to tap me out in no time.

I start going with the one guy, just light, no striking stuff, just grappling. Starting from standing, trying to get each others' balance, looking for openings for a takedown and whatnot. "Pummelling" I guess you call it? I don't know. This goes on for a while, but every time the guy tries something on me, I just move to the safe spot, or shift my balance, or change the distance, or whatever. This went on for quite some time, as the guy never got into a position where he could get a good takedown going. And it's not because he wasn't trying. At one point, I guess I just decided to take it to the ground, because I found myself in a good spot for temakura and went with it. It was very effective, even on a resisting opponent. At this point, I heard one of the NHB guys say, "That was sweet!" And I'm thinking, "okay, whatever."

So now we're grappling on the ground. I know two things about submission fighting, those being "jack" and "squat." I didn't really know what the "accepted form" was for various things, and I tried a few chokes or arm-bars when the opportunities were presented, but he was quick enough and strong enough that nothing really came of them. But I wasn't dog-meat either. He tried all sorts of stuff - chokes, locks, pins, whatever. Every time I just moved to the safe spot, or moved in such a way as to take the opportunity away from him before he could capitalize on it. This too went on for quite some time. After the third time I easily broke out of what he probably thought was a killer hold or choke, I could tell he was getting frustrated. He couldn't even get a submission on "the new guy" and it was bugging him. Eventually we broke, smiled at each other, shook hands, and chugged some water. Not the end I think he had in mind when we first started.

The second guy I rolled with was way more aggressive. Him I choked out in about a minute. Apparently I cheated, though, as I got the choke by wedging my entire thumb between his windpipe and carotid artery. He asked me how I got a choke on him that hurt so much, and when I showed him, the other guys in the gym thought it was pretty cool (because none of them had been able to see it - they felt that since you could easily get such a choke in a position that the ref was unable to spot it that that was all good).

So on the ground, I was able to acquit myself very well, just using the kind of body knowledge (kotsu, perhaps) that comes with training in Budo Taijutsu. Sure, I can't pull off the picture perfect guard-drop to half-mount (I'm not even really sure what that is), but who cares? There were a number of opportunities for me to do something better - stand up. Which is where I'd rather be in any kind of fight, especially against multiple opponents.

And standing up, I found that the biggest drawback I had was trying to fight back the urge to take advantage of every shot I could get at an unprotected knee. And in the standing clinch, there are lots of these opportunities.

One area where I was clearly weaker, however, was in conditioning. These guys train like animals. They work out hard, both for strength and cardio fitness. Three of them were getting ready for fights (including the one I choked out). They are in way better shape than I am, being to a man (and one woman) greater in physical strength and longer in endurance than I am. I have taken some of their cardio drills to heart (no pun intended) because I think they are definitely onto something. It's certainly an aspect of their training that I can learn a lot from.

But the idea that Bujinkan guys never spar because they're all candy-asses is horsepucky. The idea that they can't do well in groundfighting because they don't train in it specifically is horsepucky. There are candy-asses and incompetents in any art (the Bujinkan is no exception). But it's not universally so.

And Shojin, I think that Bujinkan blackbelt is selling himself short. Just because the guy couldn't get the kihon happo to work when sparring doesn't mean he sucks. If you just stand there like a dope and try to take omotegyaku on someone, of course it's not going to work. It's not supposed to work that way. As Nagase-sensei is so fond of pointing out, it's all about taking the right openings at the right time. And I know that he can take it against resistance (because I sure as hell ain't just giving it to him).

There's a difference between not being trained for a certain situation and "sucking." Not to say that there aren't people (including instructors) out there who "suck," but I think that a lot of people never take a very realistic approach to their training. And before you say anything, no, I don't feel you necesarily need to "spar" to be realistic about your training.

But just because people don't spout off about sparring or cross-training in BJJ doesn't mean that they are candy-asses incapable of hurting someone very, very badly in a real situation.

Todd Schweinhart
20th February 2003, 00:00
This is an interesting discussion on several levels. I would like to add something to see what people think.

I practice martial arts and in my spare time like to play the game of pool. Many of you may already know that some of the best spots for pool "action" are in bars and other somewhat shady places. From this I have learned some invaluable lessons.

One is that you have to compete with other players to hone your own skills and reach new levels of the game. Playing by yourself just doesn't get you to the levels you need. You can attain needed knowledge from books, videos, asking people and playing alone. Competing against various other people that think and play differently than you is a must. This, I think, is an excellent example for budo too! You have to test your skills against unwilling opponents that move and think differently.

The other issue is about fighting or self protection. I often hear of two people debating who would defeat who in a fight. While it usually proves pointless, there are some other factors that we must inject into the discussion. Many people bring up Hatsumi sensei or other popular teacher and various MMA event (ie PRIDE) and say that Hatsumi sensei would easily defeat those opponents. I say in that environment that Hatsumi sensei would more than likely be easily beaten by these younger, stronger opponents in that arena. It is the same to compare an olympic boxer or wrestler, or perhaps even a professional football player to Hatsumi sensei. This is not his area of expertise and these guys would run all over him. He just isn't trained in those areas. Same for the MMA environment.

But to be realistic, I have seen many physically skilled martial artists (and pool players) played with like toys when faced with a person that has the ability to defeat them mentally. These opponents might not be as skilled in their area but beat them in another fashion. This includes the element of surprize, the environment and other factors usually not accounted for when discussing a "match". Most people think of this grand "match" as two men squaring off in a ring, but the truth of the matter is, this only happens when you sign up for it. In an every day situation people like Hatsumi sensei or other older budoka can defeat the younger, stronger fighters because it is then not a test of skill. The element of surprize and confusion is a very heavy advantage when dealing with realistic combat of any sort. Read the story of chushingura (47 Ronin). How do you win when the odds are so heavily stacked against you? You use your mind and creativity. The same if a taijutsu person and "BJJ person" both have weapons. It depends on who is the smarter person and of course each individuals training with the particular weapon. For example, give a handfull of shuriken to a skilled Negishi Ryu exponent and the same to a BJJ guy... Gets a little silly after a while.

So I have seen many guys get distracted by a "friend" and get punched out by the original opponent in a bar situation. The same holds true for an older budoka facing a younger, stronger person. The older person has to create other advantages.

I actually cut this short...Sorry to be so long winded. Hope some of this makes some since.

Best,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville KY

Moko
20th February 2003, 01:13
We're all entitled to our opinions. Even if you're wrong about Takamatsu Sensei. (Note use of honourific)

My big question is "How would Rickson get Takamastu Sensei on the Ground?" I know I'm stealing that line from a Bujinkan Shihan but; Hey it worked for him.

Bradenn
20th February 2003, 10:14
Shojin wrote:
"At this point people who don't like this talk will say ok Rick, your talking of beating people up etc.. No I am not. I am not mad at Mr. reouf, and would never want to HURT anyone including Mr Renouf. I have no desire to show him up for ego sake. What I am TRYING to get accross is a SINCERE intention to SHOW what I mean. It's like this. you come, we meet, we talk, we smile. We agree to spar, we spar, I SHOW you what I mean you SHOW me what YOU mean. See. Now from THAT we can then sit down (like I did with the black belt) and talk about as BUYU! that is all I ever mean when I say lets not talk, lets get on the mat."

I think that is a great approach. In fact, isn't that what Takamatsu Sensei used to do? I remember a story about him fighting 2 men from Musashi Ryu at Toda Sensei's dojo. Apparently they fought hard and then enjoyed long discussions and became good friends. (there were a few broken elbows and eardrums along the way for good measure:) )

Elf Tengu
20th February 2003, 11:14
If there are Bujinkan black belts that are that bad, we're going to have to go back to arguments about grading again!

Elf Tengu
20th February 2003, 11:23
I'm no black belt, but even I can use strikes, pressure points, and other nasty little tricks to set up anything in the kihon happo so that it is guaranteed to work unless the guy is full of adrenaline or angel dust!

Sometimes locks and throws won't work on their own, which is why our taijutsu doesn't rely on them as stand-alone techniques. And you can even use atemi in gradings if you have a difficult uke and the teacher probably won't see it unless they wince too dramatically! Call me cruel, but I'm likely to do this anyway, just in case!

And it's not always the technique even then! Musha dori will never work against the hugest of bodybuilders for example (you're more likely to open up yourself for a ganseki), but luckily there is plenty we can still call upon!

Elf Tengu
20th February 2003, 12:11
No answer on the multiple opponent question yet?

Yeah, I know I probably need to 'roll' with some of these guys (see, I can even use the same hip and groovy vernacular!) but they're a bit thin on the ground round my way.

I don't think we've mixed Bujinkan and BJJ enough to make too many assumptions as yet.

Takamatsu sensei fought at least one bout that reputedly went on for days. How was this possible? Was it all fought standing, and ending up like a drunken John Wayne brawl? Or mainly on the ground in mounts, which we know will wear down the fittest athletes in the world in under one hour? Or a bit of each? Did they break it up into smaller bouts, stopping for breakfast, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner and supper?

It's all too much for me!

The Tengu
20th February 2003, 14:48
Originally posted by Elf Tengu
I'm no black belt, but even I can use strikes, pressure points, and other nasty little tricks to set up anything in the kihon happo so that it is guaranteed to work unless the guy is full of adrenaline or angel dust!

Sometimes locks and throws won't work on their own, which is why our taijutsu doesn't rely on them as stand-alone techniques. And you can even use atemi in gradings if you have a difficult uke and the teacher probably won't see it unless they wince too dramatically! Call me cruel, but I'm likely to do this anyway, just in case!

And it's not always the technique even then! Musha dori will never work against the hugest of bodybuilders for example (you're more likely to open up yourself for a ganseki), but luckily there is plenty we can still call upon! I'm with Rick on this.

The kihon happo does not need kyusho attacks in order for it to work, as long as you do the techniques with proper taijutsu. In fact, if you are relying on atemi waza to get your kihon happo to work in the dojo, you're training yourself with a handicap.

What I mean is that it is better to use the right angling, footwork, tsukuri, and kuzushi to set up the technique. You should try utilizing the assets of your entire body and your body's positioning relative to their's to conjuctively lock out their skeletal structure. Doing this does not require the uke to respond to pain. Their anatomy simply has no other way of reacting.

I taught a class last night where we focused on exactly what I typed above, so I wanted to post while it was still fresh in my mind.

BTW: I finally watched that clip. The "musha dori" in that Gracie video does not use angling, footwork, tsukuri, or kuzushi. The technique against Royce's grab is actually right where he is strongest, in front of his body. Royce could have muscled his way out of it, or repositioned his body to counter the technique. OR, he could have just let go of the shirt any time during the first half of the technique and his arm would have slipped out.

The Tengu
20th February 2003, 15:27
Originally posted by Elf Tengu
I don't think we've mixed Bujinkan and BJJ enough to make too many assumptions as yet.There are Bujinkan schools that do mix BJJ.

I do and I don't like the results.

I feel that while BJJ is very effective, the goals of most NHB-style fighting is a lot different than the goals of ninpo. A lot of the time when you cross-train in BJJ, you lose sight of the ninpo aspects of your training.

The NHB goals are trying for the submission, whereas the ninpo goals are more along the lines of do what you can to escape with your life.

It's really easy to get trapped in the NHB game and look for the submission, since NHB is a sport, and quite frankly very fun! You naturally want to "win" by beating your opponent.

Therefore, I've "lost" a lot of groundfighting matches in the dojo by simply playing the NHB game instead of approaching newaza with a ninpo perspective.

The Tengu
20th February 2003, 15:43
Originally posted by Shojin
Hi Guys,

Greg first:)

Greg, when you look at Rorion do Goja dori, please look at it this time looking at the verticle demension, he is attacking the suki in Royce's kamae, from above. The secret is in the elbow as he explains. Try it, forget the hand and raise the elbow high and then over the uke's arm, then rop your hips with the elbow to get the bend, then wrap.I did try it, last night against a guy who has very strong upper-body. I have weaker upper-body, and my weakest side (left) was against his stronger right side.

So to make a long story short, I wasn't able to pull it off, and he struck me in the face with his left fist since at no time was I off of his line-of-attack. Perhaps I didn't do it 100% properly, but I'm still uncomfortable with being "in range".


You can't muscle out if you do it right. nd anyone can let go, the idea (and you should know this) is not to capture the arm... if he lets go, it WORKED!Yeah, I believe in that idea too. But for training purposes, it is a cop-out.

The Tengu
20th February 2003, 15:57
Originally posted by Shojin
And Really, most people will not even get into a fight in their life, and if they do, chances are that they won't be facing a skilled BJJ man/woman Boxer etc..

So this is just for those of us who re ninpo Nuts who want to have all the bases covered it's also good for self discovery. LOL

This reminds me of the first week I was training at the dojo I attend now.

I got choked out by a 16-year-old female nanakyu on the ground.

I think that was one of the most defining moments in my training so far.

LOL... just thought I'd share that with you guys.

The Tengu
20th February 2003, 16:09
Originally posted by Shojin


Maybe your mind was on other things? ;)

DOG!

JOKE!!!! :D L O L . . .









:look:

The Tengu
20th February 2003, 16:19
Originally posted by Shojin
As for the video technique, you must not have understood it from the video it works well.I guess not.

I wasn't able to get it to work well without musclef___ing the technique.

Marc Renouf
20th February 2003, 17:50
Rick, I'm not saying that because of this one experience, I feel that Bujinkan training is universally better than NHB of BJJ training. You will note that I never assert that.

What I do assert is that there are people in the Bujinkan who are training in an effective, realistic way. What I am saying is that the taijutsu principles we learn actually work. Against strongly resisting opponents.

I guess I don't know exactly what you mean when you talk about "alive" training, but I suspect there are plenty of people out there already doing it. They just don't talk about it so much.

It's like John Willson and his "contrappostal motion." Anybody who practices taijutsu for any length of time learns these principles. Just because they don't have a catchy name for it doesn't mean they don't "get it."

And this is what I get the feeling you are implying. The tone of your posts implies that anyone who doesn't train the way you or Dave or Ralph do is missing the boat, is not seeing the light, is meat for the beast. I simply disagree. It's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth (probably not much).

studious_ninja
20th February 2003, 18:16
Originally posted by Elf Tengu
If there are Bujinkan black belts that are that bad, we're going to have to go back to arguments about grading again!

There are Bujinkan black belts that are 'that bad' We've all seen them. Unfortunately, most of them don't know they're 'that bad'. I say this not wishing to start any arguments about grading.

Syd Sked

kimq
20th February 2003, 18:51
Perhaps a concise definition of "alive training" might be in order for all levels.

shinbushi
20th February 2003, 20:14
Originally posted by Marc Renouf
And this is what I get the feeling you are implying. The tone of your posts implies that anyone who doesn't train the way you or Dave or Ralph do is missing the boat, is not seeing the light, is meat for the beast. I simply disagree. It's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth (probably not much).

Marc,
I don’t think that Rick meant that. All he is saying is that many dojos that don’t practice against a non-cooperative opponent are not going to pull it off outside of kata practice. Aliveness is not new Bruce Lee focused on it and others before him. All sports not just combat sports, train in this manner and even reality self-defense instructors, like Tony Blauer and Peyton Quinn train in this manner. I discovered aliveness after having trouble transitioning from kata to randori (even with practicing henka). Rick told me about aliveness then I went to a Matt Thornton seminar and was convinced that was the piece that was missing. And in my opinion it fits in with Bujinkan training. Soke has always said that it is not the form and that it is up to each individual to make the arts of the Bujinkan work for him or her. Rick and myself and others believe that alive drills in addition to kata practice are that vehicle. If you have another method that works use it. One way to test if it is working is to spar with people of a different art and see how you do. I know some will say that sparring is not like real combat, true, but it is a practice that trains some attributes that are needed. If you only spar your own students you don’t have as good as a measuring stick as you would sparring others. For Japan, I think this kind of training would fall under the category of outside of the dojo training like bag, pad (Or other striking practice). But I think that for many dojos outside of Japan we include many of the outside training in our regular curriculums.
For those that think that this type of training for sport please read
Street vs sport (http://www.straightblastgym.com/street.html#street)

Tamdhu
20th February 2003, 23:32
I find sometimes that 'turning arnold' just makes it worse for the uke. It is good training, though, as it really forces you to find an effective angle, unify your motion and use your legs.

tmanifold
20th February 2003, 23:38
If you see someone lay in the gaurd and hold someone close or look for arm bars etc.. they are beginners or people who cross trained a little or added it to what they are doing.

Here I disagree. The closed guard is more defensive than the open guard but it has its uses even to experienced grapplers. Also holding someone close is use full when trying certain rolls or other moves (some chokes come to mind). Catorgorizing someone who uses a closed guard as a beginner is way to broad a statement. I personally have been grappling for over 10 years and still like the closed guard. I like the security of the closed guard until I create my opening for an arm bar, sweep, or other move, then I open my guard.

However, I agree that the statment you posted is also to broad a statment. The guard is defensive in nature but it a great platform for regaining the offensive. The best grapplers I have rolled with will vary the closed and open guard depending on the situation and will move regardless of whether the legs are closed or open.

Moko
20th February 2003, 23:51
Well I hope you did the right thing Rick and set the people at Kutaki straight.

Moko
21st February 2003, 04:22
...{QUOTE]he's over hear now BS [/QUOTE] ...I guess you're already there so what's the point of saying you're not there when you actually are? (If I could make that any more obtusee, Heheheh)


And Robert, I really bug ya don't I LOL! Oh well what cha gonna do

Um, Okay sure.

Was that the right answer?

What really bugs me is not getting enough whipped cream on my cheesecake. You, Rick, don't.

Marc Renouf
21st February 2003, 17:48
Shinbushi wrote:

"One way to test if it is working is to spar with people of a different art and see how you do."

I did exactly this thing, and it turned out pretty well. I've also sparred with Savateurs, and acquitted myself very well there too. That was precisely the point I was trying to make in my first post; I assert that there is more than one way to skin a cat. At our dojo, we don't suit up in face cages and wear gloves to engage in regular "sparring" or such training the way Rick describes it, but through constant, repeated work with jissengata principles and ideas, we learn to incorporate the timing, distancing, and angling techniques.

Maybe it's because we try to make a point of ensuring that the uke is putting intent into his or her techniques, I don't know. When I'm an uke doing jissen techniques, I'm trying to hit the other guy, face-cage or no. I would expect no less of him.

kimq
21st February 2003, 17:58
Originally posted by Marc Renouf
Maybe it's because we try to make a point of ensuring that the uke is putting intent into his or her techniques, I don't know. When I'm an uke doing jissen techniques, I'm trying to hit the other guy, face-cage or no. I would expect no less of him.

I feel exactly the same way. I get the feeling that many schools do not instill intent, which results in poor exploration and training results.

kimq
21st February 2003, 19:10
Uh Rick, take a breath. I've already said that intent is only one tool in the box. At no point did I say that it is the end-all and be-all of our training. I feel that intent is a VERY important tool that a lot of people are missing out on.

It's like layers. Kamae - Mindset - Kata - Kihon - and so on up to as close to combat as we can get without injuring or killing one another. I'm talking about only one tool - you're jumped from that and went off about another one.

Pettiness and ego? Why are you attacking me with these words? Why the sudden beligerence?

kimq
21st February 2003, 19:45
Originally posted by Shojin
I quoted your post, but I went off in all kinds of directions! LOL!

It's alright mate - happens to the best of us.

As for going to the next level of training, I don't feel I'm ready for that kind of thing. I can handle myself in brief, full-power situations, but quickly lose myself. It stems from a self-depreciating fear that my skillset is weak. I look at my seniors at the school I attend and feel like a miniscule (let alone pale) shadow beside some of them.

What contradicts that fear, however, is my willingness to go out on the street tomorrow on a ride along with a local police officer and act as his backup. It's going to be my first time doing that kind of thing. The scary part is that he is assigned the busiest/roughest part of the city.

It's a bit of a mental/emotional mess.

godstar
24th February 2003, 11:34
Originally posted by Elf Tengu
Sorry, I didn't clarify what I meant.

Kimo, as well as the likes of Mr Shamrock. Do you think Hatsumi or Tanemura sensei would offer such resistance in the form of pure stubborness and strength as Kimo did?



I'm certain that Hatsumi could ¤¤¤¤ up royce pretty badly from the clinch, its more likely to be Nagato. I don't think the Bujinkan wanted the attention.

Sports will evolve towards the specificity of their environment, so if the Buj had won the second or third UFC by putting Nagato against Royce, The Buj would probably have been hounded by the Gracies till Rickson beat him if he can which I cant be sure of. And an art that focuses on a wide range of weapons would not have lasted as the dominant form.

For too many the mentality is bad in the UFC and in many BJJrs because they achieved partial enlightenment by discovering that an outsider could easily beat them... Believe it or not the MMA/BJJ community is succeeding in enlightening us, but many have lost the truth in favor of Bifurcation.

I see it self destructing... ten years is a short time.

Look at it thisway. The martial arts of popular choice in the 80's was ninja jitsu, how many people got really good at that? In the 90's it was BJJ? So in ten years when the MA world is spun up in Silat or something else, you will find a lot of people getting on the bandwagon.

So although sources like Blackbelt magazine have given us the edge of good information, most dojo's from the 80's remain karate dojo's, from the 90's tae kwan do,



Are the koryu in our systems really that useless against such a new variation of jujutsu?


Judo borrowed its newasa from Teshin shin'yo ryu, which was originally a style of aikijujutsu that seems to be identified with the Aizu clan, which makes it an offshoot of daito ryu before daito ryu was called that....

My opinion is that there is a strong Sumo influence in the standup game of hugging,

If you look at the real history of semi regal angry samurai, they often had pet sumo wrestlers as body guards and liked to make them fight.

godstar
24th February 2003, 12:19
Originally posted by Shojin
He would be WAY better than them! :D

About Takamatsu and Rickson

If both were in their prime, and Takamatsu had no weapons and found himself on the ground with rickson, Rickson would OWN him! Takamatsu would have eye pokes and kyusho and so would rickson, but Rickson would also have Bjj!

Thats my opinion...

With Rickson your putting the bar pretty high. But I will tell you that it is an absolute fact that Takamatsu would beat him. So would I and its very hard to believe that this is true...

I trained in the Bujinkan and overall I was a very mediocre yet creative student, I left thought trained in other styles and eventually it hit me, that there is a continous flow between "styles" such that inevitably they are all one...

Rickson is a great person and I hope he can move BJJ in a better direction. Its true that BJj is a kind autism, martial arts is itself autism.

Mike Williams
24th February 2003, 12:24
Originally posted by godstar
it is an absolute fact that Takamatsu would beat him. So would I

:eek:

Too...tempting...must...resist...

Cheers,

Mike

PS: Godstar, you need to sign your full real name on all your posts.

godstar
24th February 2003, 13:45
Originally posted by Mike Williams


:eek:

Too...tempting...must...resist...



Do your worst...

Think about what the Gracies +actually+ proved...




Cheers,

Mike

PS: Godstar, you need to sign your full real name on all your posts.

A name is an audible sound that your parents used to define you... As far as I am concerned I am everything... Everything else has to exist in order for you to exist. If a butterfly flaps its wings in Kansas it can change where a storm actually happens by thousands of miles... If one thing were different when your parents were having sex out of the millions of sperm and low probability of actual conception you would never have been born, So the chances that you actual exist is slim, the chance that Helios Gracie Was Ever born and Hatsumi, and all the rest very slim...

Do the math...

So where is this tripped out argument leading...:eek:

I dunno but I like it


Greg Howard(unaware that this wasn't in his sig) daito-ryu, kobudo study, ninpo, MMA, etc... kali etc...

The Tengu
24th February 2003, 15:09
Originally posted by godstar


With Rickson your putting the bar pretty high. But I will tell you that it is an absolute fact that Takamatsu would beat him. So would I and its very hard to believe that this is true...Okay, so I'm with you on Takamatsu somewhat, but did I just read that you could beat Rickson Gracie?

Forgive me if I misinterpreted what you wrote, it's early in the day and I haven't had any coffee...

The Tengu
24th February 2003, 15:58
Originally posted by Jeff Mueller


Greg,

Why are you even encouraging this guy? :rolleyes: I guess that is what he was saying then.

This thread's pretty much off topic now I suppose. Hrm.

shinbushi
24th February 2003, 20:25
Originally posted by godstar


I'm certain that Hatsumi could ¤¤¤¤ up royce pretty badly from the clinch, its more likely to be Nagato. I don't think the Bujinkan wanted the attention.


Rather that worring about if our teachers can fight or defend themselfs, I think each of us need to make sure we can.

Elf Tengu
25th February 2003, 15:20
Yes, I know I subscribed to this who-could-beat-who argument, but I think we should all agree that it's going nowhere fast.

You can never bring dead people into such arguments and prove beyond all reasonable doubt what the outcome would be.

If we're not careful, someone will add Bruce Lee and God knows who to the mixture!

I'd like to see a Takamatsuden practitioner take on all the BJJ/MMA folk and beat them convincingly, and it may happen in the not too distant future, but then I doubt that the best BJJ/MMA/NHB fighter in the world is some unkown individual somewhere that does not want to dilute his deadly skills for competition application and has a massive array of weaponry and other skills as are found in the complete art of ninjutsu and its companion arts.

BJJ is perfectly suited to competition but modern day ninpo isn't.

What made Takamatsu so successful in all his challenges, and a twentieth century equivalent of the earlier champion Miyamoto Musashi, albeit that Musashi was primarily a swordsman?

Takamatsu sensei was a real ninja in combat terms, and used his skills to take human life in wartime, but could also fight formal challengers in what was almost certainly a toned down version of his art for the purposes of competition and demonstration. Did he kill any of these formal challengers as he did on the battlefield? Not that I'm aware of.

What is missing from the way we train today that isn't producing new fighters of such calibre?

We know how little BJJ would bring to the battlefield although it would still be an improvement on standard military unarmed combat manuals.

We are not geared to competition martial arts, and need a good ten years or more if we are to turn out competition fighters that can recall draw on all that there is to offer in our arts, but then even the modern styles such as BJJ are still evolving too so can we ever catch up with them?

I don't think that ninjutsu attracts the kind of athlete that aspires to fighting in the octagon which doesn't help.

Perhaps we should start by getting a good BJJ fighter and adding our techniques to his and see what happens.

But it's not for me!

Self defence and enjoyment are my reasons for training.

A calling you might say!

godstar
25th February 2003, 15:42
Originally posted by Jeff Mueller


Greg,

Why are you even encouraging this guy? :rolleyes:

Why are you discouraging Greg? Huh? Huh? Huh?:mad:




Greg Howard :eek:

godstar
25th February 2003, 15:53
Originally posted by Elf Tengu
Yes, I know I subscribed to this who-could-beat-who argument, but I think we should all agree that it's going nowhere fast.

You can never bring dead people into such arguments and prove beyond all reasonable doubt what the outcome would be.

If we're not careful, someone will add Bruce Lee and God knows who to the mixture!


Well in Game of Death in the uncut footage Bruce Lee beats Kareme Abdule Jabard(I think) with a neck crank after a choke on the "ground." (on the fith/highest level of challenges -Probably symbolising the void and us the real ninja)

Dan insanto had numerous Grappling techniques added to Bruce Lee's JKD.

Common sense is that if you really want to defend yourself you get a weapon thats easy to carry and that you are willing to use, a big loving dog and stay away from danger...

Whatever the subject of who beats who like comic book characters, whatever it is - it is not the most linear method of self protection, it is therefore not the truth just a bunch of children whining:p ;) . And it is not what the Budo community would be best at.



Greg -Howard

tmanifold
25th February 2003, 18:42
We know how little BJJ would bring to the battlefield although it would still be an improvement on standard military unarmed combat manuals.

Interestingly enough the latest US army standard is based on BJJ. Also Jack Hoban was involved in formulating the new Marine martial arts program as part of a "panel of subject manner experts".

Mike Passow
28th February 2003, 08:45
For more on Mr. Hoban's involvement in developing the new U.S. Marine Corps martial arts program, read this article:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26437



Q: Does the formal 27-and-a-half hours of instruction include elements like managing space and distance?

A: I assume you are referring to some of the stuff we are doing in the Bujinkan. I need to be real clear here with you, Geoff. There were a lot of people besides me that were involved in creating the curriculum – the physical curriculum. The thing that I do when I go down there to teach, besides putting in my two cents on how the physical training is going, what I usually do is I teach the courses on "The Warrior Creed" and ethics. That's the main reason I'm involved in the program. There are plenty of guys teaching how to stab and choke people.


Some great things in that article...

As originally linked from here:

http://www.winjutsu.com




Yours,