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stormshadow
24th February 2003, 17:08
I have been told That Hatsumi Sensei just took what was the best from different Ryu and compiled it to form the Bujinkan. I was told that there was much more than just Koshijutsu to Gyokko ryu but koshijutsu is the specialty, so it is what is taught. I asked if there were Gyokko Ryu kenjutsu techniques, and i was told there was, but they were not as good compared with koto ryu or kukishinden ryu kenjutsu, so we don't learn them. How much are we as Bujinkan practicioners not seeing when it comes to the other aspects of a ryu besides it's koppojutsu or koshijutsu, ect?

Jim Gibson

Bradenn
24th February 2003, 17:47
This is an excellent question. I have also wondered about this.

I think the 1993 Daikomyosai was Gyokko Ryu Bojutsu.

Personally, I don't think we are entitled to say we do e.g. Koto Ryu Koppojutsu in the same way as someone might say they do Goju Ryu Karate. For one thing how can we claim to do Koppojutsu without doing the atemi no tanren (weapon conditiong)? In old times I am sure there was a lot more to each school than what we see. Wasn't there a long preparation period to go through before any kata were even taught?

Another interesting thing: I bought the Shinken Shiraha Dome video and it is excellent, but apparently the techniques are from Bokuden Ryu!

kimq
24th February 2003, 18:11
We are not learning specific schools, although some schools may be yearly themes. A theme is not full ryu study. We are studying Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu - not nine schools each in turn.

Bradenn
24th February 2003, 18:33
I'm still not 100% clear on how the Jinenkan approaches this.
Does anyone know whether the Jinenkan gives a more thorough training in each school?

Just some guy
24th February 2003, 21:05
Given that Manaka Sensei is very open with information,
I would suggest you go to his web site and just send him an e-mail.
www.jinenkan.com

BTW, It may some times take a while to get back to you. They're sometimes prety busy at the Hombu.

John Anderson
24th February 2003, 22:18
Originally posted by Bradenn
I'm still not 100% clear on how the Jinenkan approaches this.
Does anyone know whether the Jinenkan gives a more thorough training in each school?

Taken from the Jinenkan webpage:
"In the Jinenkan a strong emphasis is put on mastering the fundamentals.The basics are not just a step which one passes through on the way to learning more "advanced" techniques. Every student is expected to keep polishing his or her basics year after year, and not forget them once the test has been passed. Also, we study the techniques as they are written, and in the order they are written in the scrolls. There are reasons why the scrolls are organized as they are, and a piecemeal approach to training can leave a person without the tools he or she needs to learn any technique well".

Bradenn
24th February 2003, 22:33
So would you say that in the Jinenkan, you can become fully qualified in say, Koto Ryu or Togakure Ryu BEFORE you start to mix them and synthesise your own art?

Jeffery Brian Hodges
25th February 2003, 00:56
Hi,
Let me start by saying that I do not study Gyokko ryu per se, but the Genbukan system, however I believe the "Gyokko Ryu Bojutsu", that was referred to in the previous post was doing bojutsu with the feeling of Gyokko ryu, I do not BELIEVE there is bojutsu in Gyokko ryu.
Second my opinion on the ryu-ha is that everyone is studying a composite style which takes the best of the different ryu-ha, once again I do not believe you are truly qualified to say you are doing xyz ryu-ha, unless you are being awarded menkyo, even though you may be practicing the kata. Just my opinion.

sincerely,

Oni Arashi
25th February 2003, 06:41
No offense intended, does anyone know what Ryu's Manaka holds Menkyo in. I'm just curious, don't kill the cat! It's pretty well known in Bujinkan that Hatsumi Sensei gave Menkyo to Manaka.

The people in Bujinkan I communicate with don't really talk about the other two Ninpo Kans.
Scared I guess!:D

Tamdhu
25th February 2003, 18:57
I don't think it's about 'learning' and then 'mixing' and then 'synthesizing' your own art from the 9 arts of the Bujinkan, nor do I think the object is to eventually master all of the techniques contained the the 9 arts.

I think it's about learning the principles that lie beneath them all and which made each of them possible in the first place.

The 9 arts give us a multitude of views and examples in which to explore and (hopefully) eventually discover and embody these principles for ourselves. As they are learned, specific points of all the various arts can and will be grasped very quickly as mere combinations and extensions of those basic principles.

bencole
25th February 2003, 19:35
Originally posted by Oni Arashi
Scared I guess!:D

Oh, yes, PETRIFIED! LOL! :eek:

-ben

Kinjo
26th February 2003, 12:43
I knew that would probably elicit a response from you.

Why doesn't the subject of Tanamura, or Manaka ever get discused. Another one of those PC issuse?
Perhaps if people that were in the know, felt free to discuse certain issues then people wouldn't feel the need to wonder.
I find it strange that Jinenkan, Genbukan, welcomes Bujinkan members freely. One the other hand, Bujinkan ask that you don't train or frequent their web-sites, or support the organiztion in anyway.
There are alot of claims, Grandmaster of this, Menkyo in this, all inquiring people want to know is are we paying for the real thing?
If taijutsu is inheritly individual, then shouldn't you learn all you can. From who you can?
Perhaps I'm wrong.:o

Bradenn
26th February 2003, 12:49
Originally posted by Kinjo


Why doesn't the subject of Tanamura, or Manaka ever get discused.


Tanemura-sensei is discussed plenty just around the corner.
Try
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=7

kimq
26th February 2003, 16:56
Originally posted by Kinjo
Perhaps I'm wrong.:o

I wouldn't say you're wrong, but I think you might be suffering from a bit of cultural misunderstanding.

Tamdhu
26th February 2003, 17:08
...all inquiring people want to know is are we paying for the real thing?

You and any other inquiring people will have to investigate and decide for yourselves. No one is going to spoon feed you anything. Where and how you spend your time and money is your concern.

The Tengu
26th February 2003, 20:58
Originally posted by Shojin
Just on this part here. My "personal opinion" is not that Hatsumi Sensei took the best of different ryu and "made" the Bujinkan. I feel more like this. Each ryu, or "flow" is like a river through time. The "Bujinkan" is like a damn where all the rivers meet. Hatsumi Sensei has opened the gates of the damn where the rivers meet, and has allowed all of them to flow through a single channel.

This new raging river is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Bujinkan members play in these waters, yet, they are free to go through the damn and play in a single river as well or any combination of rivers.

That's just how I think of it. You may or may not agree..OMG RICK!

ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO HELL!??!?!?!

I mean I know how you feel about the idol worship thing, but damn dude that's harsh!!! :eek:

The Tengu
26th February 2003, 21:06
Originally posted by Shojin
Ok... Ok...

It's dam! LOL!


Too many hit's to the head with that alive training crap! :D :D :laugh:

Sorry man, I had to do it... I'm in one of "those" moods! :up:

OkudenDojo
27th February 2003, 01:52
Only my opinion, but if you really think about it, Hatsumi sensei, the soke of many ryuha… gives out ranks that say Budo Taijutsu. The ranks do not specify that you are a “Black Belt” in any specific style… so we cannot truly say we are students of anything but “Budo Taijutsu”.

Before the existence of the Bujinkan, Hatsumi sensei followed the traditional Menkyo system. Think about it, 9 ryu… each with about 5 levels (Shoden, Chuden, Okuden…)

Today we have certificates up to 15th Dan and no densho.

Today we must cross train with Brazilian Jujutsu… when we have Newaza in the various ryuhas. Kendo, when we have kenjutsu and Judo when we have nagewaza.

Mr. Jim Gibson… How much are we as Bujinkan practitioners not seeing when it comes to the other aspects of a ryu besides its koppojutsu and koshijutsu, ect? Is that obvious?


Victor Rafael Acevedo
aka..OkudenDojo

drizzt777
27th February 2003, 04:26
If you are training in the Bujinkan, Gebukan, or Jinenkan you are learning a myriad of skills and techniques which can be used from anything to stopping a fall, to battling three people. There is no limit to where you can go with the training. So don't worry about what isn't being shown, but focus on what is shown to you. Apparently that is what is important.

Just my opinion. God Bless!

Randall Engle
GWNBF/KJJR
Member, Fudoshin Dojo
USA

OkudenDojo
27th February 2003, 12:11
Jim,

There are many…many ways to the top of the mountain. You can either follow the sheep or lead them. If you were bold enough to ask your question then the “don’t worry be happy” answer is not for you. Keep asking… you will get an honest answer.

Go to Koryu.com and search for articles about Hatsumi. Tell me what you think.


Victor Rafael Acevedo de Lares
Just one speck of sand...

Bradenn
27th February 2003, 12:56
Originally posted by OkudenDojo


Go to Koryu.com and search for articles about Hatsumi. Tell me what you think.




As if this is anything new.
LOL!

stormshadow
27th February 2003, 16:12
Thank you everybody for your input on my post. I don't want anyone to get me wrong, I think what we do learn in regard to the 9 ryu is great. I was just curious on how Gyokko ryu movement relates to kenjutsu or maybe bojutsu or something, verses for example, Koto Ryu movement or Togakure Ryu movement would. In other words, I was curious why Gyokko Ryu Sword work may not be as good as Koto Ryu or Kukishinden ryu. Thank you again everyone for all of your kind replys.

Althaur
27th February 2003, 16:22
HI Jim. 2 years ago when we were focusing on Gyokko Ryu, we were doing sword work from it. I don't think it was any less valuable or effective than other systems, just different. It taught a different feeling of how to move and how to use the sword as part of your body. I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that just because the kata is muto-dori, doesn't mean you can't add a sword to your hands, or better yet, just borrow that bad guys. Just give it back after he's dead. :) We did the same thing last year with Takagi Yoshin Ryu. We added it's flavor to the sword work. It was different from the Gyokko Ryu stuff, but just as fun and just as deadly.

The Tengu
27th February 2003, 16:41
Originally posted by stormshadow
Thank you everybody for your input on my post. I don't want anyone to get me wrong, I think what we do learn in regard to the 9 ryu is great. I was just curious on how Gyokko ryu movement relates to kenjutsu or maybe bojutsu or something, verses for example, Koto Ryu movement or Togakure Ryu movement would. In other words, I was curious why Gyokko Ryu Sword work may not be as good as Koto Ryu or Kukishinden ryu. Thank you again everyone for all of your kind replys. If you're a beginner, forget about which ryu-ha it came from, you'll have plenty of time to learn that stuff later on.

You're also not going to scream "SHINDEN FUDO RYU FUBI JUMP ATTACK NOW! HIYA!!!!" and latch onto your attacker's body.

But if you do, make sure you get it on video because that'd be awesome... :D

BigJon
27th February 2003, 16:51
Today we must cross train with Brazilian Jujutsu… when we have Newaza in the various ryuhas. Kendo, when we have kenjutsu and Judo when we have nagewaza. Why MUST we cross train? I am not saying that I dont, or havent...but why do you think that we MUST? I guess what I am asking is, can you explain this statement a little further? In reality it just plain confuses me...

thanks,

Jon Gillespie:)

The Tengu
27th February 2003, 16:58
Originally posted by OkudenDojo
Today we must cross train with Brazilian Jujutsu… when we have Newaza in the various ryuhas. Kendo, when we have kenjutsu and Judo when we have nagewaza.Alright, I'll buy the BJJ statement for a dollar, simply because BJJ-style newaza is almost nonexistent in medieval combat since it doesn't work very well in that context.

But kendo for our sword work?

And judo for our throws?

WTF are you talking about?

OkudenDojo
27th February 2003, 17:43
Why MUST we cross train? I am not saying that I dont, or havent...but why do you think that we MUST? I guess what I am asking is, can you explain this statement a little further? In reality it just plain confuses me...



Jon,

I don"t mean that we "MUST" cross train, but newaza is part of our system, its in the denshos... but rarely taught... I was only stressing the point when I mentioned Kendo and other stuff.


Victor Rafael Acevedo

BigJon
27th February 2003, 18:28
Ok, I understand what you mean, but can you explain the kendo statement a little better? thanks,


Jon Gillespie

Denkken
27th February 2003, 18:55
I know that there are newaza included in the scrolls for Shinden Fudo Ryu, I covered some of them about a month back.

I don't know the enxact volume of them, but we covered at least ten seperate techniques, and it was my understanding that there are a substantial amount more.

I have some friends in the Jinenkan who are covering it all right now, I'll give them a call and see just what the deal is.

-Mike.

The Tengu
27th February 2003, 18:59
Also, please do not confuse suwariwaza with newaza.

They are two different animals.

Denkken
27th February 2003, 19:29
No, I know.

We covered a decent amount of seated techniques as well. But a good amount were full on Newaza.

Again, I don't know how many are in the system, but I can find out.

Moreover, it's not terribly difficult to take the mechanics of your Suwari waza or even tachiwaza for that matter and make them work on the ground.

-Mike.

Tamdhu
27th February 2003, 20:54
best,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for always giving your best.

dakotajudo
3rd March 2003, 15:19
Originally posted by Bryant Gmfry
BJJ came from Kito Ryu Jujutsu under Maeda a Japanese Emmisary under Jigoro
Kano. Their newaza was from the Daito Ryu.
Thom Humphreys

Sorry, just gotta interject this - Maeda was primarily judo and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. TSR is where most of judo's ground technique (both suwari and ne) come from.

Kito ryu is primarily a throwing art - the Kodokan includes a kata from Kito that's primarily intended for samurai in armor.

Daito ryu, AFAIK, has very little ne-waza, 'though it has a lot of suwari waza.

As far as the tachi-suwari-ne-waza debate. in my experience most (in not all) standing techniques can be easily adapted to suwari-waza, but must undergo considerable modification to be useful in ne-waza. Some don't make the transition at all. The key is understanding how the legs and taisabaki is used - ne-waza limits mobility of your center but opens up your ability to use your legs to manipulate uke. You just can't get the same kind of kuzushi.

John March
4th March 2003, 18:51
Originally posted by OkudenDojo


Go to Koryu.com and search for articles about Hatsumi. Tell me what you think.



All I can say is "huh". From what I understand the Japanese government has certified the Bujinkan as legitimate. I don't know much about ryu, etc.

OkudenDojo
6th March 2003, 22:49
Originally posted by John March


All I can say is "huh". From what I understand the Japanese government has certified the Bujinkan as legitimate. I don't know much about ryu, etc.


Just because you can't prove it doesn't mean it's not true...

the techniques are real...and very painful when done with kuden....

and that's if your taught kuden

John March
7th March 2003, 15:41
What's Kuden?

The Tengu
7th March 2003, 16:07
Originally posted by John March
What's Kuden? Okuden are so-called "secret teachings" that are usually only passed on to a student verbally from their teacher, so they are generally considered "undocumented" and "top secret" stuff.

Mr. OkudenDojo seems to think that they're the key that makes Bujinkan techniques work.

But, sometimes things are simply not documented anywhere because when the "scrolls" were written, some things were common knowledge. For instance, you're not going to find a step-by-step guide for dummies in an ancient scroll on how to hold a sword, or how to wear a helmet. You learned that kind of stuff from your teacher and nobody was going to waste their time, paper, and ink writing something that trivial down. It's not like they had Microsoft Word and an HP DeskJet back then. A lot of people weren't even literate back then.

I don't think things like "hold their wrist here, and step in a 45-degree angle backwards to your left" or "twist their arm this way to make it hurt more" count as kuden, I think they count as basic instruction.

John March
10th March 2003, 21:38
Scrolls and secret teaching are all kinda above my head. I can hardly remember the difference between ichi-monji and jumonji, omoto, ura, and hong-gyaku. I enjoy the training a lot, so that's why I do it.