Article: "Daito-ryu's Seven Principles of Aiki", by Keith Boggess

[Nathan Scott]

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[Cady Goldfield]

What about aikijujutsu? It seems that in the situations where "jujutsu must be used," there is ample opportunity to use jujutsu with aiki. The number of situations where one would be using aiki alone seems limited, but aikijujutsu is far more versatile.

[Nathan Scott]

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[Jeff Hamacher]

a quick Japanese Google using the arguments "Daitoryu Aikijujutsu" and "Fukuoka" turned up a number of sites related to some well-known groups (mainly Roppokai and some Kodokai), but adding the argument "Fujiwara" turned up no entries containing the full name "Fujiwara Kenji". no, the Internet is not the final word on the legitimacy of this teacher and his art, but it does seem strange that most "recognized" groups have some presence on-line (not official websites necessarily, but even brief references) while this one doesn't.

i'm not an exponent of any aikijujutsu school, so i won't comment specifically on the technical aspects of Mr. Scott's post. i'm not certain that i'm convinced by this take on DTR, but i should leave that assessment to the knowledgeable.

aside to Nathan: finally managed to get my grubby paws on that anthology i spoke to you about, the one which contains the Iwanami imprint of Heihou Kadensho. very happy. also found a near-mint used 1987 copy of Iwanami's Budo Shoshinshuu. double-plus very happy.

[Nathan Scott]

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[Nathan Scott]

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[Cady Goldfield]

That will be interesting.
I notice that he mentions pain as being a key tool in making waza effective. Pain isn't a necessary factor in making jujutsu work. It's a by-product, and sometimes an inevitable one, but it's not what makes the technique work. At least, that has been my observation (especially being on the receiving end).

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Nathan,
Thanks for the synopsis of Mr. Boggess’s article. His name strikes a memory cord for me but I can’t place it just yet. I always enjoy reading other’s thoughts on the subject of aiki. Whether I agree or not, doesn’t matter, the reading process generally makes me re-think my own thoughts, which I find helpful.

Do you know if this article can be found on-line? I haven’t looked for it yet, shame on me for being lazy. If you know off hand of a site address please send it to me, if not, don’t bother, I will do my own search.

I find the classification of the attack into four types an interesting concept. I have never thought of viewing it in such a manner before. However, I don’t agree that #1 really represents an attack. While this type of attack happens in dojos (or would that be ‘doji’ :) ) it doesn’t in my opinion represent a real threat or attack outside the dojo.

‘Your Honor, he grabbed my arm and was a complete rag doll. He didn’t really move me or even attempt too but I felt threatened enough to destroy him.’

That defense wouldn’t really fly. When someone is that limp they aren’t really attacking and don’t pose a really threat. In order for them to attack they must be more than a rag doll. Now the rag doll can be used as a defense against an aggressive attacker but I don’t know if it can be used as an attack method. IMHO, the rag doll attack is limited to poor training partners in the dojo. I have found a good solid punch to the sternum either makes them ‘alive’ or makes them go away. Either way I view it as an improvement. Unfortunately this training enhancement aid is generally not appropriate.

The ‘stoning up’ attack represents an opponent that is really defending not attacking. In my experience this is very frequent in the real world, many people are more afraid of being hurt than of inflicting damage. While the attacker is ‘stoned up’ they really aren’t that much of a threat, however if they can somehow gain a superior position they can jump from ‘stoned up’ to the number 3 attack very quickly. Learning to deal with the ‘stoned up’ attacker is important in my opinion.

The other item I would like to comment on is the appropriate methods to be used against each attack. While I respect Mr. Boggess’s opinion I must disagree with his conclusions on the limitation of appropriate response methods to the given attack. In my opinion and experience aikijujustu and aiki no jutsu techniques can be used effectively against all four attack types listed. Aiki no jutsu techniques against attacks 1 & 2 are far more difficult to accomplish than against attacks 3 or 4. The key is to build a false intent or response (not the best phrase to convey my thougths but my brain is stuck right now) in the attacker by manipulating their perception and then accomplishing the desired technique or motion. This extra step is very difficult and represents a whole new plane of mastery and skill.

I am not saying that using aiki no jutsu techniques against attacks 1 & 2 are better or best, simply possible. Also I think training aiki no jutsu techniques against these types of attacks is important, it leads to a new level of understanding (also frustration), which in turn improves the use of aiki no jutsu techniques against attacks 3 and 4.

Mr. Boggess implies that aiki no jutsu techniques are only applicable against an attacker that is connected and focused. The phrase you used was ‘The opponent attacks with unified and properly directed power and intention – they’re entire body connected.’ I agree it is easiest to use aiki no jutsu techniques against such an opponent, however I don’t believe the theory that the attacker dictates and limits my response method based on his attack. Early on in training this is so, but one should strive to move beyond such limitations quickly.

I also note that there was not a mention of breathing in your synopsis. I find this absence of breathing in the ‘factors necessary’ most interesting and telling. Was breathing mentioned in the article anywhere?

Good post Nathan and thanks for sharing.

mark

PS. Good point about pain and jujustu Cady. I totally agree.

[kaishaku]

Mr. Scott,

I, too, have not read the article and admittedly am not an expert on the aiki arts. The issue of the limp, disconnected opponent is interesting. In policing, I have had many occasions where the suspect was very "disconnected" and in my experiences when they were attacking it was not as threatening as the others you have described.

In a similar vein, I am aware of a set of techniques and principles we use in jujutsu sometimes referred to as "yasume waza." These are numerous but there is a set of "yasume uchi waza." For example, strikes are executed in totally relaxed manner until the exact moment of touching the opponent. In another yasume uchi waza, strikes are executed as if the limbs are disjointed or "dead". These strikes are typically focused at various kyusho. In my professional life, I have used them with great success.

Perhaps the author of the article was referring to these type of attacks. I don't know.

As a final aside, as may have already been stated and I know that you are aware, there are many jujutsu techniques that are not pain compliant and in fact are not intended to be.

F. Darren Smith

[Nathan Scott]

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[kboggess]

Nathan Scott emailed me and invited me to join the discussion. I would like to thank him for the invitation.

I trained under Kenji Fujiwara in Fukuoka Japan between the years 1994-97. The article was based on his teachings. His curriculum stems from the Horikawa strain of Daito-ryu. I no longer practice the art due to a lack of local qualified teachers at the time of moving and I have shifted my emphasis to Chinese martial arts (my wife is from China, so with the cultural connection and the periodic visits, it made sense).

For more information on about concepts, there is a book called something like Daito-Ryu: The Hidden Roots of Aikido. It is an English translation of a Japanese book and discusses the differences between jujutsu, aikijujutsu and aikinojutsu.

The principles were taught to me by Kenji Fujiwara, so these are not of my creation. I will clarify (or muddle) the best I can.

Keith Boggess

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
In regards to the first attack, Boggess stated this kind of attack can be fast (because of the lack of tension), implying a strike. I believe he is referring to the more Chinese striking methods, which often include the relaxed strike that tenses just prior to impact. This is the style that I use for striking as well.

From my point of view, the first attack includes any strike or attack that is not connected, or, becomes loose when a reversal is attempted. In both cases, a connection to the attackers center is not provided, and one must be established. Though I agree that aiki techniques can be used to do this, the most basic and perhaps obvious method is the winding-locks used typically in jujutsu. As I stated before, I agree with the author's generalization, but would have acknowledged that other defenses are possible.



Nathan,
Thanks for pointing that out. I made the mistake of simply assuming I knew what the author was talking about as soon as I read it and didn't think through it as closely as I should have. I agree someone can attack effectively with striking while remaining disconnected and relaxed. As you know these can be very affective strikes.

Your comment about reversals against these strikes makes me think you may have limited yourself to dealing with the striking arm and attempt to gain a connection with the attacker's center through said arm. This is difficult to due using aiki no jutsu technique if the attacker is using attack method #1. However, we are not limited to only using the striking arm to gain a connection to the attacker's center. There are many other options for affecting the attacker's center with aiki no jutsu. One is to simply enter and make direct connection to attacker's torso and apply an aiki furi (sp?) technique. The possibilities are too many to list. Just food for thought.

Keith,
Welcome to e-budo and thanks for joining us. Please jump in and comment anytime. Or feel free to tell me I am full of crap. I sense someone to the north of me is itching to do so, but I don't worry about that since it will be quickly deleted. :)

Very nice thought provoking article......well I don't have a copy of the article yet, just the synopsis but still great to read. Thanks and I look forward to your input.

mark

[Ron Tisdale]

Did I miss it, or has someone posted a link to the full text? I'd really like to read it...this is a good thread.
Ron Tisdale

[kboggess]

A couple of points in reviewing the posts above that may (or may not) help clarify.

1. When we speak of the terms jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and aikinojustsu, we must separate them from the branding of a particular system. For example, in the early days of Takeda's synthesis called Daito-Ryu (he, like Kano, was trying to create an all-Japan style), some called it Daito-Ryu Jujutsu. Jujutsu styles have elements of aiki just as Daito-Ryu has jujutsu tactics. Weapon systems used aiki as well in different parts of their system--they just didn't call it aiki.

2. Jujustsu tactics, or those based on leverage and pain, should be learned first. My teacher emphasised the aiki-no-jutsu level as developed by Takeda's student Horikawa--while I learned a lot, I also felt that I was missing a foundation.

3. Let me set the definition of aiki as taught to my teacher, for many in Japan have different interpretations of the work. Aiki litereally means unite the energy. It can be thought of as the combination of various factors--timing, distance, body alignment, facial expression, intention,etc.--to diffuse and at the same time unite with the opponent's energy. If his aggression can be thought of as electricity, then you are trying to ground it. You take his center at the first point of contact (or sometimes just before contact in aiki furi).

This is hard to explain--you have to experience it.

For example, place your palm on someone else's palm as if you are pusing them. Both start to apply pressure. At some point the stronger will win. Now instead of applying that pressure in a straight line, apply it forward and up as the partner begins to apply pressure. That diffuses the opponent's strength and at the same time let's you "take his center" and guide him--as long has his intention is on pushing. Aiki in this definition is not going with the momentum and and redirecting it that way. Even aiki-hiki--or aiki pulling techniques--first take the center and then guide the opponent with a pull. In that case, the moment of aiki is subtle and hardly seen by the untrained eye.

I found that aiki-kai practioners used more momentum in their attacks and defenses. This was neither a superior or inferior approach--just a different emphasis on energy. When aikido people visited our class, our techniques would not work on them and their techniques would not work on us--we were using tactics based on different applications of energy. And the Judo guys training on the other side mat just looked at us and shook their heads in pity.:)

Keith Boggess

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by kboggess
2. Jujustsu tactics, or those based on leverage and pain, should be learned first. My teacher emphasised the aiki-no-jutsu level as developed by Takeda's student Horikawa--while I learned a lot, I also felt that I was missing a foundation.

I couldn't agree more concerning "jujutsu first," having been shown (and having experienced) the necessity of this path by my own teacher. However, my point was that it is not all -- nor even mostly -- pain compliance, but rather structural control, along with leverage, that is the main functioning factor in the jujutsu application. Pain is a by-product, not the controling factor itself. Uke is under control not because "it hurts," but because the technique used on him renders him unable to move.

Keith, I am enjoying your posts here, and appreciate your willingness to participate on the forum. Thanks to Nathan, too, for hustlin' you up from the ethers. :)

Cady

[Nathan Scott]

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[Cady Goldfield]

Don't get me wrong, Nathan. I believe that Pain Is Good. I'm just saying that I have experienced many jujutsu techniques that could be delivered with or without pain -- dealer's choice -- and they were effective even without it. Others were painful as a byproduct of their mechanics, but were effective at incapacitating because of the mechanics, not the pain. (Okay, so the pain definitely impeded me! But I'm not a psychotic on PCP :p )

Pain works great in many situations, but not all. IMO, it's important to know that your waza will incapacitate and neutralize regardless of whether the recipient of your waza feels pain or not.

[kaishaku]

I agree with Cady Goldfield and Nathan Scott on two points in particular.

1) All legitimate martial arts have some form of aiki, albeit it may be known by a different name. For example, the idea of taking one's centre (and using one's centre to control another) is found in sveral forms of jujutsu and I have seen it in some of the CMA as well.

2) Pain can either be a byproduct or the intent of a waza. To link back to the loose, disjointed uke / opponent, try this experiment - and many of you probably already have. Lock your uke with any lock that has pain as one of its results (it may be a byproduct or not). Have the uke "tense up" or "stone up" during the waza. Have the uke note the amount of pain and you should note how much ki / chikara you applied. Next, have the uke relax and "breath through" the lock. The uke will experience considerably less pain and you will notice that the simple range of motion of the locked joint has increased substantially. Reverse roles.

As an aside, "breathing through" katame waza (locking tecniques) is often one of the first things to do in any effective gaeshi waza (reversal techniques). Conversely tori / nage should learn how to breath and ki into a technique.

Great thread, Nathan. Now I'm off to class.

F. Darren Smith

[kboggess]

In reading the last few posts on pain in jujutsu techniques, let me give an example--the arm bar.

First, let me say that we should not get labels confused. It is only a classfication system. A jujutsu style that uses a technique to take the center is not using a jujutsu technique in this classification system (many throws of Kito-Ryu, for example, would not be classified as jujutsu). They probably just called "good technique". The classification from my reading has only been used by Daito-Ryu--in other words, it is Daito-Ryu's approach to analyzing technique.

Now, to the arm bar example. The pain/leverage part in a jujutsu level arm bar can be applied either before the technique as a setup or during the application. If apply energy to vital point on the back of the arm (golgi tendon or center of the tricep), then that pain will elicite a pain reflex--the person's legs will buckle and he will go straight down. It may appear that you are That extensor/flexor reflex is in response to pain.

An Aikijujutsu application would be to set up the technique with a vital point blow and the take his center by using the arm to transfer the energy to move his mass while at the same time immobilizing it. You may choose to leave the vital point blow out, but you use the coupling action of both hands to help lock the that person's chain of motion. The person does not buckle here, he rolls into the pinning position.

The Aiki-no-jutsu application--you take his center the moment you make contact. The kuzushi when your hand receives the blow or the his hand grabs you. From there, you guide him to the vulnerable position. Here you take his center to wind him up in one direction (aiki-age) and then guide him down into the arm bar/pin. No pain whatsoever is experienced throughout the technique. The key to identifying the aiki-no-jutsu technique is to look at the guy's feet at the momenent of contact. If he is not on his toes, then the technique is not aiki-no-jutsu. The Roppo-kai have some videos that show this well.

Again, this is the Horikawa strain of Takeda's Daito-Ryu. The mainline school has a different feel. The Takuma-kai has it, but it is stylistically different--again showing the different strains of development by Takeda's students. Daito-Ryu is actually quite diverse--with subgroups of subgroups now in existence.

Keith Boggess