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tommysella
27th February 2003, 09:53
In an old book I have come across the following kanji:

http://www.gjc.nu/kanji2.jpg

The problem is that I can't find it in my dicionary...

The closest I come is:

http://www.gjc.nu/kanji1.jpg

With the nelson number 1600 and the meaning "go"...

Hope someone can help me with this...

Regards,
Tommy Selggren
Gävle Judo Club

P Goldsbury
27th February 2003, 12:25
What is the book? Is there any context. Is it part of a person's name? I am at home at the moment and the (small) dictionaries I have available do not give the character you have posted. The closest thing to ?l (nimben: the radical on the left) is ˜×, which means 'sacrificial altar'. However, under the radical you have given for SO (yuku) œh, there is a variant which combines the right-hand side of the character with Radical 162, which is never seen alone.

If you give more information, I might be able to give further help.

Best regards,

Sochin
27th February 2003, 15:31
Since this topic will bring language / kanji experts together, I hope you don'tmind if I take a little side trip. I won't hijack your thread tho!

I'm interested in the meaning of the "To" in Toyama.

Thanks,

P Goldsbury
28th February 2003, 02:30
My computer has the ATOK kanji input software and when I typed in 'toyama' in hiragana (‚Æ‚â‚Ü), the following possibilities were presented:

1. •xŽR: •x here means rich or abundant and the combination is the name of a place or person.
2. ŒËŽR: ŒË here means door and I think the combination is a surname.
3. “uŽR: “u here means grindstone or whetstone.
4. “oŽR: “o here means climb or ascend, and the combination can also be read as 'tozan'
5. ŠOŽR: ŠO has many readings, but combined with yama, it means the last mountain in a chain or range.

All except No. 3 appear in my dictionary of Japanese names and if you lengthen the o and make it ‚Æ‚¤‚â‚Ü, other combinations are possible.

Best regards,

renfield_kuroda
28th February 2003, 07:05
Originally posted by P Goldsbury

2. ŒËŽR: ŒË here means door and I think the combination is a surname.


That's the one for Toyama-ryu Battojutsu.
FYI it's a proper noun (place name.)

Regards,

renfield kuroda

ghp
28th February 2003, 07:05
The "to" kanji in Toyama is "door" and is also used as a counter for houses.

"Door Mountain" does not make sense, so it is either a simplification of an older kanji, or comes from a name (and it's not the same kanji as the family name "Toyama" or the "Toyama Prefecture)

The "Toyama Academy" was named for its location in the "Toyama District" of Tokyo. The district is still there, but the academy has long since gone. I think now there is a housing complex there ... or a park.

Regards,
Guy

ghp
28th February 2003, 07:08
Ren,

Silmutaneous posts!!!! DUUUUUUDE!

--Guy

renfield_kuroda
28th February 2003, 08:16
Originally posted by ghp
Ren,

Silmutaneous posts!!!! DUUUUUUDE!

--Guy

Great minds think alike!

Besides, your Japanese never ceases to amaze me. ;)

Regards,
renfield kuroda

P Goldsbury
28th February 2003, 09:40
Originally posted by renfield_kuroda


That's the one for Toyama-ryu Battojutsu.
FYI it's a proper noun (place name.)

Regards,

renfield kuroda

Yes, I know. but it is also a surname.

Best,

Sochin
28th February 2003, 15:02
Thanks guys,

let's look at the Toyama as a surname...I saw 'yama', and figured it for 'mountain' andwondered about the 'to'.

As a surname, does it still translate to anything?

ghp
2nd March 2003, 16:44
Sochin,

As far as I am aware (which has no real depth, seriously) -- the "Door Mountain" kanji "Toyama" is not a surname.

The surname "Toyama" (as in Toyama Prefecture and Toyama Mitsuru, founder of the Black Dragon Society) that I am familiar with use the kanji "strike" as in ate-ji and honto (err... using the old kanji before it was simplified to what we recognize today).

However ... not being an expert -- I am probably wrong. I've just never have seen "our" Toyama as a family name.

Ren, how 'bout you? You have a strong knowledge of Japanese. Izzit or Izznt'it??

Regards,
Guy

Joseph Svinth
2nd March 2003, 23:30
Guy --

How about Walter Todd, and his Toyama Ryu karate?

Also, Kanken Toyama was a Shudokan stylist, and Shudokan is one of the roots of what became taekwondo.

renfield_kuroda
3rd March 2003, 07:45
Originally posted by ghp

Ren, how 'bout you? You have a strong knowledge of Japanese. Izzit or Izznt'it??

Toyama (using the kanji for Toyama Battojutsu) is a proper noun in every sense of the word; it is used both as a place name (city, school, village, etc.) and as a family name (though not terribly popular, but it's there.)

A quick google search turned up several people/places including a couple of schools, a professor named Jun Toyama, etc.

Regards,

renfield kuroda

P.S. Not all names "make sense" according to the kanji. Some do (like mine: blackfield), some don't. Back in the day when people were getting last names, often it was given for some reason, sometimes the kanji came later to match to sounds of the named used.

Meik Skoss
5th March 2003, 03:15
Toyama, in this context, is just a name. As Guy mentioned, it can be a place name or a family name. It doesn't necessarily "mean" anything; how many family names do? Okay, Power. Smith. Black. Cooper. But really...

The location of the old Toyama Gakko, near the Aikikai's Hombu Dojo on Okubo-dori, was the site of the yashiki for the Tokugawa daimyo of Owari. During the Edo period, he built it up into a famous garden that had many features representing famous locations from all over Japan (maybe even in China, too, although I'm not sure about that). Sadly, it's now just a huge block of To-ei (Municipal) apartment buildings.

Hope this helps.

Jeff Hamacher
5th March 2003, 05:06
Tommy,

like Peter, i wasn't able to find your first character anywhere using a small print dictionary and a handful of Internet resources. the second character does appear: it means not only "to go, travel to", but also "to die" and "to aim for". not certain if this helps your quest for answers, but feel free to ask more later.

P Goldsbury
5th March 2003, 08:59
Originally posted by tommysella
In an old book I have come across the following kanji:

http://www.gjc.nu/kanji2.jpg

The problem is that I can't find it in my dicionary...

The closest I come is:

http://www.gjc.nu/kanji1.jpg

With the nelson number 1600 and the meaning "go"...

Hope someone can help me with this...

Regards,
Tommy Selggren
Gävle Judo Club

I have done more research and the character you are looking for has the Chinese ON reading of SHO, or SO. The Japanese kun readings are the following (Nelson nos. in brackets):
(1)
'tsutanai', now written as ?Ù‚¢ (1880), meaning unskillful, clumsy, bungling, generally wretched, similar to ‰ºŽè heta;
'nibui', now written as “Ý‚¢ (4830), meaning dull, slow-witted, thick-headed;
(2)
'asai', now written as ?ó‚¢ (2549), which can mean either physically shallow, or shallow in character.

The character is given in Morohashi's "Dai Kanwa Jiten", Vol.1, p. 681 and appears to have no compounds.

Best regards,

Sochin
5th March 2003, 15:10
Thanks guys,

that's good enough for me!

ghp
6th March 2003, 02:18
http://a1259.g.akamai.net/f/1259/5586/1d/images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/Regular/10053000/10053427.jpg

http://www.donthaveacowman.com/Simpsons/media/captureD44.jpg

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~bgs9d/woohoo.JPG

WOO-HOO!!
... I Found it!!! However, I'll wait until my article is published before I tell you about the etymology of "Door Mountain." I will tell you that it has its origin as part of a 3-kanji name, as well as a homophone!

BUT ... you will just have to wait for the March debut of "Classical Fighting Arts" magazine.

--Guy :D :D :D and :D