PDA

View Full Version : Saving Face



Darren Laur
28th February 2003, 01:21
Saving Face:


This thread was spawned as a result of the earlier thread I wrote called “A Deadly Lesson”


“Saving Face” is one of the most important street commandments that most street predators and thugs consider sacrosanct. If at anytime you challenge a person’s “face” either verbally and or physically, you are likely going to be in for a fight. This is even truer if the person you are challenging has a peer group as an audience looking on. Allowing one to “save face” during the pre-contact phase can also offer a tactical advantage that you can take advantage of, here’s an example of what I mean:


Last year I was dispatched to attend a local high school for a report of a group of youths drinking. It was graduation and the student body was celebrating in the schools parking lot, something I did when I graduated as well many years ago. When I arrived I noted that the group was about 120 students. After calling for backup, we proceeded to walk into the group who were now dissipating. Within this group I observed a smaller group of ten males who considered themselves a gang. One of these gang members had a number of warrants for his arrest but I also knew that if I went into his crew to pull him out the fight would be on due to the fact that he would need to save face.

Proper Pre Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance, knowing that this gang member would need to save face I came up with my plan of attack. I called him over to my location that was out or ear shot of his crew, but yet his crew could still watch the both of us.

I explained to this gang member that there were several warrants for his arrest and like it or not he would have to come with me. I further advised him that if he did not come voluntarily, I would have to physically retrain him which could result in injury. After advising the gang member of this fact, he looked at me and stated, “ LARS if I don’t fight you when I get out of court tomorrow my crew will beat me.”

Understanding this fact (saving face) I used it to my advantage. I advised the gang member that he had two options:

1. To resist my arrest which would likely result in him getting hurt and loosing face in front of his crew, or;
2. If he allowed me to hook him up, after the second handcuff was applied he could call me every name in the book. He could yell, scream, tug, and pull but he could not physically strike me in any way.

Upon giving this guy the above two options he stated; “ if I call you a ¤¤¤¤ing pig you won’t smoke me.” It was at this point that I knew I had him and that he would be compliant with my arrest. After weighing his two options for approximately twenty seconds the gang member stated; “okay Lars I will turn around and let you handcuff me.

As the guy turned around to allow me to handcuff, his crew began to show all kind of pre-assaultive signs, but as soon as I got the second handcuff on the gang member went into show mode calling me every name in the book, pulling, tugging, and resisting me in my attempts to escort him to may car. Upon seeing this his crew started cheering his actions yelling and screaming the fact that this guy was going to kick my ass once I got his back to cells.

Once back at the car, I shoved the guy in at which time he continued to put on the show kicking both the inside door and back window of my cruiser while yelling and screaming at the top of his lungs. His crew was still cheering his actions. Once we got a block away out of view of his crew, this gang member immediately stopped all his actions and said; “Thanks Lars.”

Why did he say this?, because I allowed him to save face in a difficult situation in front of his crew, which allowed for a win/win situation. He got what he wanted, and I got what I wanted.


Remember:

DO NOT CHALLENGE SOMEONE’S FACE, AND WHEREVER POSSIBLE ALLOW OTHERS TO SAVE FACE



Strength and Honor

Darren Laur

tmanifold
28th February 2003, 01:40
Good point Darren. I know a lot of guys that will start I fight because , "I can't let him punk me like that." One of the problems with gangs, at least the "gang" of guys in Victoria (of whom I know a few), is that they have to show how tough they are and one of the problems for us is that showing how tough "he" is often involves 5 or 6 of his friends. These guys will not take the chance of losing and if they do they will look for you and try to get you later when there are more of them.

I dealt with these people because I knew a person in the gang. I also had some dust ups with some of the members. I found with them the easist way to handle them was a) don't show fear because they thrive on it, b) be calm c) Don't challenge them while they are in a group. Like Darren said if you can isolate the guy you have a problem with and give him an out that lets him stay cool with his boys, he will often take it.

ktuck
28th February 2003, 18:18
Good posts, gents. Either of you care to share strategies for de-escalating a confrontation once tensions are high (perhaps following a verbal exchange) but before any blows have been thrown?

tmanifold
28th February 2003, 20:53
Well here are a few links that might help
http://www.members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/crunch.htm
http://www.members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/communication.htm
http://www.members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/verbal_de.htm

Alot of that deals with what to do when the de-escalation fails but it will give you an idea of the process.
Some things I do are:
Stay clam and speak in a normal conversational voice. This helps bing the altercation down to a conversation not a fight.
State that you don't want to fight but in a way that doesn't make you look scared. One that I used one time went like this. I was in a hotel with a guy from my course in the army. He was loaded and pissed of some other guy. The other guy was ready to kill him so I had to step in. What I said was, "Listen man, no wants this. You try and fight him then I got fight you and we all go to jail. I don't want to go to jail, do you?" That got him think about other things than the fight. No one starts a fight they think they are going to lose. It gave him an out that had nothing to do with losing a fight. Then I turned the conversation away from the fight. In this case I lucked out because it turned out he had just joined the Unit I was with, so it was an easy turn.
Above all just stay confident. The idea is to make him start thinking for away out without making him feal threatened. He thinks I don't know if I could take this guy rather than I got take this guy out before he takes me out. If he is waffling and you present him with a plausable way out 9 times out of 10 he will take it.
During the de-escalation process be prepared to attack pre-emptively if anything begins to appear like it is failing. This is a great post to help you recognize if things aren't going the right way:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/street_101.htm

Always be prepared for the 1 out of 10 but aim to get the other 9.

Sochin
28th February 2003, 23:58
Well, there it is, right?

the big $64,000 question...from Kevin Tuck


Either of you care to share strategies for de-escalating a confrontation once tensions are high (perhaps following a verbal exchange) but before any blows have been thrown?

I'm also in Victoria and I've also worked with these kids and for many years I believed that the ability to de-escalate could not be taught. I'd watch a teacher heat up what should not have been a confrontation until I couldn't stand it and then in 2 minutes, bring it back down to earth.

Give me some feed back on these rules:

1. While you are figuring out how to take him down or out, treat him with respect. Real respect. Can you like him for his bravado or anything? It really helps, they can feel it. Be firm, refuse to take any sh*t but always with respect.

If you have to fight, don't humiliate him. It's ok in his world to lose to someone who is tougher or more experienced but it is not ok to leave it hanging if someone spanks you and makes you look bad. I've told gang wannabees after a fight, "Hey, I'm well trained but with you I was lucky, you did a good job, man, but you gotta look after yourself better and not pick the fights you can't win."

So, back to the original question: What do you say to de-escalate? Anything you would say to a best friend or a brother who has crossed the line but who you don't want to hurt is a good start. Eat it and look bad, it ain't worth it! But don't cower, stand up and be straight.

I can say that I never had to fight a guy I didn't want to fight, it was always my choice for one reason or another, and unless I was living with him, I never had to fight twice.

tonylfi4
11th March 2003, 14:18
Having evaluated well over 50 men convicted of criminal homicide, many of whom were either on death row or getting ready to go there, the two most critical "triggering" variables associated with the homicidal act were "perceived loss of face AND the absence of a non-violent alternative."

Loss of face is such a powerful precipitant of aggressive behavior for the very simple and often over-looked reason that it "goes to the core of who the person sees himself as being." Indeed, nations go to war in order to protect their "image."

A good resource, once one gets past the "touch feely" stuff, is a book by Jim Gilligan, MD entitled: "Violence: Our Deadly Epidemic and its Causes."

tony

Darren Laur
11th March 2003, 20:41
Tony:

Thanks for your comments. Your background, experience, and working knowledge in this field are very welcome and needs to be heard by all who frequent this forum.


Darren


ps: good luck with the ppsc , you have surrounded yourself with a number of people who I respect in the field

Troy White
16th March 2003, 21:04
Great subject. Yes, "Saving Face" draws a lot of unsuspecting victims into scenarios where they may wish they never had gotten into. In the earlier case of Courtney, He should have ignored the prostitute and left the area immediately. For most people this is the case for personal safety; Stay aware, avoid confrontation (whenever possible) even if it means swallowing your pride. For other's, such as LEO's, Security, Etc. it is much more complicated and "Face" must be upheld.




Troy