Bowing

[Orso Rosso]

Before I begin: I am not criticizing bowing or how often it's employed in classes. The reason this topic is here is simply because it baffles me, and happens to be Budo-related, so pleeease, no one get offended. Here goes:

In many of the Western classes (especially Karate), I see a lot of bowing. A lot. In all the vids I see of Japanese classes, there is very little bowing. Just bow onto the floor, bow to the sensei, bow out. (In Aikido, they seem to have a ton of bowing anywhere you go, so this doesn't apply). Also, I barely, if ever, hear anyone say "Osss!" in the Japanese classes.

Were these aspects exagerrated by American instructors to reinforce the 'Eastern' aspect of the art, or am I just watching all the wrong vids?

[pgsmith]

Hi Ali,
I think that there is some exaggeration involved in some American classes. I have seen one or two karate groups that looked like birds always bobbing. :) People that are not Japanese and have not lived in Japan are trying to emulate cultural differences and sometimes overact.

There are also classes in Japan that are extremely rigid and formal with lots of bowing. Alot of it depends upon the particular school. I have found that the more modern schools such as karate and aikido tend to be alot more formal than the older koryu. That's just as a generality though, because there are always plenty of exceptions!

Personally, I've never cared for those schools that say "Osss!" as if it were a sitcom laugh track. Just my opinion though! :)

Cheers,

[MarkF]

My teacher was Isei, and it was as said above, little if any bowing. Mostly, when it was necessary, "Hai!" was the word most often heard, and that was probably because it was an unnofficial rule at shiai. When your name was called, one answered with "hai." Osu is heard in judo dojo, but more as a response, a sound rather than a word. If caught in a pin or arm lock, after one was experienced enough, it became natural, and sounded more like OSSu with the u almost silent, as I've heard it should be.

Other sounds I've heard include Yosh, unshu, and a few others I'm not totally sure how to romanize.

Then again, judo is so much less specific about a lot of things, it isn't noted, unless you visit a karate or aikido dojo. At one kyokushin dojo, I heard Osu used for so much that it was completely out of step. I mean, just leaving a room or entering, passing a dojo mate, used in place of hai or thank you, etc., was just over the top, at least in regard to what I am used to, it is.

In my own dojo, I teach the general use of words and commands one might hear, such as those in shiai, so students learn them in due time, but it also isn't a great sin to forget when walking on to the mat, etc. My teacher didn't, and once when I ran into him by chance at the local community college, I bowed, and he seemed to have to think about it before he bobbed his head in response.

I doubt any of this is Japan specific or western-specific, it just is different at any given dojo at any given time. But it is probably a good idea to at least know the _proper_ usage of such words and sounds, just in case.


Mark

[GreySilk]

My first reaction was i thought you said bowling...and i had a great comment on that...but on bowing???


Well I think it should be kept to a minimal....unless it's part of a form/kata.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

It Wing Chun all we do is Put your hand over your fist to the person opposite to show that you are thankful for letting you hit them!

The hand over the fist originally comes from the fall of the Ming Dynasty, Ming meaning "Sun & Moon" and the hand jesture of hand over the fist looks like a moon over the sun.

It was originally for Triads for when the yellow boxer uprising was about to happen, This was adopted later in gung fu as a salute to the times of good rule, Shoalin monks did this from when there monestry was burnt down when opposers of Ming rule did not like monks being so powerful and against them.

Well, it's something along those lines anyway ^___^;;

Cheers

[gendzwil]

I like the bowing. Martial arts begin and end with manners. OTOH it can be too much. I attended aikido classes for about a year, and it was a kneeling bow everytime you changed partners. When the instructor demonstrated a technique, it was also several kneeling bows between him and uke and then us after the demo. Way too much bowing.

We do a standing bow when we enter or leave the dojo. Of course several kneeling bows during the lineup at the beginning and end of class. During rotation practice when we're switching partners quickly, it's just a quick standing bow at each partner switch. During free practice or shiai we perform a bow from sonkyo (a deep squat position) with our partner/opponent.

[Don Cunningham]

I've always liked the kendo etiquette of showing your right hand is empty when passing in front of someone else. I've seen it often done in Japanese offices as well. I don't know if it is just a common cultural thing or if this is a habit they might have picked up from their high school kendo days. The really exaggerated versions of this particular form of etiquette are nearly always practiced by yakuza members, too.

[gendzwil]

There's a little more to it than that. You're not actually *supposed* to pass in front of someone else, you try to walk behind them if possible. If you have to go in front, you bow a little and hold out your hand as a silent apology.

We also take handling the gear seriously, avoiding stepping on or over someone's equipment and asking permission to handle or move it.

[MarkF]

Don is right about kendo ettiquette or "wa" in general, anyway. The nicest events I've ever attended were kendo shiai, and the overall behavior of everyone was an example to everyone, at least it has an effect on me when I attend them. Everything just seems to be in balance, not too much nor too little, it was juuuust right.


Mark

[MarkF]

BTW: Why is this in this forum?

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly > Baffling Budo

Budo no kokoro seems to be a better place for it.


Mark

[Steve Williams]

You're right Mark.

Just wanted to see how it panned out....

So time for a change of scenery....

[Aozora]

I think it's probably because most of us in America are clueless as to how a Japanese dojo is run, and thus, the old maxim "When in doubt, bow," applies.

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Don Cunningham
I've always liked the kendo etiquette of showing your right hand is empty when passing in front of someone else. I've seen it often done in Japanese offices as well. I don't know if it is just a common cultural thing or if this is a habit they might have picked up from their high school kendo days. The really exaggerated versions of this particular form of etiquette are nearly always practiced by yakuza members, too.

Its not just related to walking. You put your hand out when you are going to do some thing thats rather inexcusable. Its a sort of "I know I am in the wrong here but thanks anyway" action. Or "Thank you for letting me do something thats not so polite" Or "Can I do some thing thats not polite"

How far you take it? I put my hand up when I am driving the car a lot. I you don't you will NEVER get out of that side street.

For me its the gesture season with strawberries put out in the office I put my hand out in the familiar gesture and grab one quick before they dissapear.

My most memorable putting the hand out action was when a gestured and grabbed a free audio system that another was pondering about taking.

This is an art form gained through many years of sword work. The hand goes out and you mesmerize them with it like a kensen. Then when they have fully taken the bait you go in for the kill.

I run a Japanese Dojo. Bowing all the time sounds a bit naf to me. At work (education and M.A.) I teach the Japanese ettiquette of bowing before and after. And thats what we do in the Dojo too.

We do have large shouts of HAI all the time means a yes I understand. Its quite funny. I explain something to a student and say, "Do you understand what I said"....... "HAI" . "Are you sure"?.....HAI. He then immediately does what he did before I tried to help him.

Hyakutake Colin

[Joel Simmons]

Aloha,

I'm speculating here, but could there be a link to all the bowing with the manner in which most Americans initially learned martial arts in Japan or Okinawa?

I suppose this applies mostly to Karate and Judo, etc. But, weren't most of the "pioneering" Americans in the military when they learned Japanese MA in the 40's and 50's? Wouldn't it have been perfectly normal for these guys to be taught in a militaristic fashion? Excessive emphasis on external markings as a show of rank, and the excessive use of bowing replacing the salute to indicate superiors wouldn't seem strange to WWII vets at the time would it? So, perhaps this is just how the Americans learned to behave in a dojo, and when they came home and opened up their dojos, that is how they taught it here and so forth. Perhaps, that is the only way the Japanese sensei could get the Americans to pay attention or to have Americans show them the respect due, after just being forced to surrender? ??? Just a possibility.

[hyaku]

Hello Joel

Perhaps that did play a part in things. If I remember rightly Otani Sensei who had spent the war years in Britain had shown Judo in a fairground show and had later formed the BJC.

British had come back from the war saying oh yes we know all about Judo and etiquette and had formed the BJA. But perhaps their knowledge was superficial compared with a born and bred Japanese.

I think the main thing to remember is that bowing is a cultural thing that we all do living in Japan and that people in MA do it too. So if we wish to study it in depth we need to look at Japan's do's and donts as a whole rather than just the MA community.

My Ryu has taken steps to improve our etiquette by taking lessons in Ogasawara Ryu. However there is a long standing link between the founder and his adopted son and the Ogasawara family that has led us in this direction.

Likewise Japanese have followed a similar path by both bowing and shaking hands.

But some things have their basics and will never change. I work in a place with 1300 people using a restaurant and still have to search for the "one knife and fork" buried among the spoons. Damn if a will ever want to get used to picking up a big peice of meat with chopsticks, gnawing a chunk off and putting it down again. Or will I? I do bow profusely when I speak to Sensei on the telephone!

Hyakutake Colin.

[Joel Simmons]

Aloha,

Yeah...I learned to pick up my Korean BBQ plate with chopsticks after living here for 3 years. What's horrible is trying to get a hold of the soft tofu with chopsticks...pain in the ass.

~Joel

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by hyaku
We do have large shouts of HAI all the time means a yes I understand. Its quite funny. I explain something to a student and say, "Do you understand what I said"....... "HAI" . "Are you sure"?.....HAI. He then immediately does what he did before I tried to help him.
Used to have that problem with Chinese co-workers. They don't want to appear stupid in front of a superior so they invariably say they understand after an explanation. Takes them years of working here to realize that nobody will blame them if they don't get a concept on the first go - we do very complex stuff here and we understand that english is not their first language. I took to not only asking them if they understand, but asking them to explain it back to me. Lots more efficient than having them spin their wheels for days because they were too scared to admit they didn't understand the instructions.