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Kamiyama
28th February 2003, 06:39
Here is a photo of my student Iwayama in Greece teaching AOC and Kamiyama Dojo Ninjutsu to a group of Special 'Navy' Forces members.

Cool...

I wish all the US military good luck with their missions over seas..

kamiyama, ralph severe

SILVERSURFER
28th February 2003, 07:06
Hello.

There are a few bujinkan dojo in Greece.
Too bad we didnt know anything about to arrange something.
Practise ,drink beer
Maybe next time.

Kamiyama
28th February 2003, 10:19
Under the circumstances and nature of the military position of these guys training I don't feel they would allow outsiders into their training....... The methods Iwayama teaches might not grove with Bujinkan outlines anyway. He has never trained in the Bujinkan anyway....

The nature of their training is basic and for survival... never the less.. you are correct.. I can't tell you where they are.. secrets..

I just believe the young human beings over seas should have more surport from us.. they are putting their lives on the line..

kamiyama, ralph severe

caleqs
28th February 2003, 11:50
Its great to see ninjutsu training being used to help our men holding the line overseas. I think its the ultimate of what we play at in the dojo. Who knows when it might save their lives, not just in battle, but in every day life in the military.

Bradenn
28th February 2003, 12:01
Those are some cool ninja masks they are wearing!

Very impressive how they disguise their faces without having to wear the old-fashioned black mask.

:)

SILVERSURFER
28th February 2003, 14:32
Under the circumstances and nature of the military position of these guys training I don't feel they would allow outsiders into their training....... The methods Iwayama teaches might not grove with Bujinkan outlines anyway. He has never trained in the Bujinkan anyway....

The nature of their training is basic and for survival... never the less.. you are correct.. I can't tell you where they are.. secrets..
------
Yes, i undestand the secrecy .
But belive me the place looks familiar :-) (if you know what i mean!)

Anyway since greece is a place many tourist visit next time anyone from bujinkan drop by for vacation or work and want some training body or drink partner let us know.

Ka1yama
28th February 2003, 15:04
IT's good to see Shannon finally exercise again lol. Our service men in Greece have a great teacher. THe meanies should just surrender now:D Keep it up Iwayama san
Thank you to all our service men around the world
Neil Stewart

m harper
28th February 2003, 16:30
I agree, Thanks Shannon, and Thanks to all the service men and women out there putting their lives on the line for us. My nephew Chris is in the 10th MT. and on his way this week. I hope he gets a chance to train with someone like Shannon to help keep him safe.


Mark Harper
Bujinkan Houston Dojo

shikoyama
28th February 2003, 17:08
WOW! Its great to see kamiyama dojo being spread arons the world.

WOW! Its great to see iwayama doing his expert "arm twisting" in Greece!

I hope he and the rest of our troops out there are out there for a good reason. I really think Saddam is a bad guy, that he has done bad things to his country and Iraqi poeple, mostly to promote his own ego, but I think that our presidant also has his own ego in high gear . . . I worry that there are hidden adgendas. I can't help thinking that it was Bush's daddy that went after Saddam last time,a nd did not finish the job (wimp?). I can't stop thinking that every time world oil prices go up texan lad owners with oil leases are getting very rich (and yesterday world oil prices reached the level that they were last time a bush was in office . . . something to seriously think about). I can' stop feeling that the main objective here is to be at war (any kind of war . . . "war on terrorism . . ", "war on Iraq" . . . and there's always N Korea if we need to keep it going into 2004) when it comes time for elections (we have never changed presidents during a war . . .

Anyway, I hope we are actually going to do the right thing . . . so far I don't feel right about the way things are going . . .

Michael Cole
28th February 2003, 20:42
I think it is great to see Iwayama's training being put to good use. I hope that he and the people he is working with do not have a need to use any of it, but I am grateful that they are there if we need them.

ninjaman
28th February 2003, 22:15
Excuse me - but where is the ninjutsu found in those pictures? A sweeping kick to the inside thigh - much like any karate/tai boxing kick (nothing wrong with that, though). And a wrist hold that leaves you open to many counterattacks, especially to the groin. And laying down like that makes it hard to get up on your feet (so you can defend yourself from multiple Iraqi attackers).

Just my two yens.

Johan Grönwall

Michael Cole
28th February 2003, 22:56
To Ninjaman:

It is not ninjutsu per se, but the idea behind the training that I was referring to when I sent that message. Besides, you only see two photos of the training...not all of the training that Iwayama does. I have seen Iwayama train, after all, he is my classmate. I believe that he is teaching some ninjutsu ideas to his fellow men just because of what I know about the man. Besides, with proper execution of the techniques, there is no time for a counterattack, and you can get up very quickly.

shikoyama
28th February 2003, 23:18
agreed . . .

"I believe that he is teaching some ninjutsu ideas to his fellow men just because of what I know about the man."

. . . and I believe ninjutsu sort of encompasses everything . . .

DWeidman
28th February 2003, 23:19
Originally posted by shikoyama
I hope he and the rest of our troops out there are out there for a good reason. I really think Saddam is a bad guy, that he has done bad things to his country and Iraqi poeple, mostly to promote his own ego, but I think that our presidant also has his own ego in high gear . . . I worry that there are hidden adgendas. I can't help thinking that it was Bush's daddy that went after Saddam last time,a nd did not finish the job (wimp?). I can't stop thinking that every time world oil prices go up texan lad owners with oil leases are getting very rich (and yesterday world oil prices reached the level that they were last time a bush was in office . . . something to seriously think about). I can' stop feeling that the main objective here is to be at war (any kind of war . . . "war on terrorism . . ", "war on Iraq" . . . and there's always N Korea if we need to keep it going into 2004) when it comes time for elections (we have never changed presidents during a war . . .


Hm. An off topic remark from someone who doesn't sign his name to his post. Interesting... :rolleyes:

I am sure the entire Ninpo and Ninjutsu forum audience wants to hear about how you "...can't stop feeling that the [blah blah blah]...". Thanks for your unsolicitied sharing... :rolleyes:

Please, keep your pathetic liberal viewpoints to yourself - or find a better forum for your meandering thoughts (perhaps wait until e-budo has a forum for "Ninja Hugs - For Ninja's who aren't afraid to cry and just want to be held").

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

Kamiyama
28th February 2003, 23:26
**Excuse me - but where is the ninjutsu found in those pictures?**

Johan, I would like to ask you a simple question ok, what type of bujutsu do you train in?
The Kamiyama Dojo methods have many different types of kicks. The one in the photo of Iwayama is a mawashi geri from the Bujinkan Dojo. You might say it is a harai geri as well. Never the less he hits hard with it when he needs to.

**And a wrist hold that leaves you open to many counterattacks, especially to the groin.**

Johan, I believe he would have broken the wrist on take down. This is taki ori from the Bujinkan Dojo. Kamiyama Dojo methods have ground attacks and defense with locks, breaks, chokes, escapes and weaponry.
Don't take the photo out of context. It is only paret of a second of time.

**And laying down like that makes it hard to get up on your feet (so you can defend yourself from multiple Iraqi attackers).**

Johan, my friend, I feel it is overly important to train all aspects of self-perfection so you can have self-preservation skills when you need them. If you were trapped on the ground by take down, slip, knocked down or other wise.. you need to have these basic skills. Even against one or more attackers.

kamiyama, ralph severe

shikoyama
1st March 2003, 01:16
"Hm. An off topic remark from someone who doesn't sign his name to his post. Interesting... "

Apoligies . . . notice I am "new" . . . still learning about this stuff . . . Notice I have information about myself in my profile . . . Thank you for setting me straight.

"I am sure the entire Ninpo and Ninjutsu forum audience wants to hear about how you "...can't stop feeling that the [blah blah blah]...". Thanks for your unsolicitied sharing... "

Actually, it was solicited, just not by you.

"Please, keep your pathetic liberal viewpoints to yourself - or find a better forum for your meandering thoughts (perhaps wait until e-budo has a forum for "Ninja Hugs - For Ninja's who aren't afraid to cry and just want to be held")."

If you read what I wrote more objectively you will realize I am niether liberal nor conservative . . . "just politically incorrect". My comments were just my observations and I believed wihtin the context of the thread. Perhaps you would have preferred that I simply follow the flock and say "I wish the best for our troops" (which, if we go to war I certainly do). Your comments not only exposed yourself to me as a "conservative", but also an angry one. You could have simply, politely pointed out that you thought I was answering out of context, and that I should have posted my "real" name.

I do appreciate where you are comming from, man . . .

-Ron Hughen

ninjaman
1st March 2003, 02:01
Dear Mr. Severe!

Thank you for your answers. Very interesting and enlightning. I´ll try to reply as good as I can:

- Johan, I would like to ask you a simple question ok, what type of bujutsu do you train in?

••• Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu - Soke´s art.

- The Kamiyama Dojo methods have many different types of kicks. The one in the photo of Iwayama is a mawashi geri from the Bujinkan Dojo.

••• Never seen it performed or heard of a Mawashi Geri in the Bujinkan. There is a kick called Koken - this is a sort of a roundhouse/Mawashi kick. Sort of a "roundhouse" Koho Keri. But it is a rear kick.

But then again - I guess in the end all kicks loose their respective form and become one kick when performed by a skilled Bujinkan practitioner.

- Never the less he hits hard with it when he needs to.

••• It look painful enough! But a more Bujinkan way could be to use the toes on one of the vital points of the thigh. That would not require so much strength to incapacitate the attacker.

- Johan, I believe he would have broken the wrist on take down.
This is taki ori from the Bujinkan Dojo.

••• He certainly would have. But that is not the same as killing the attacker. He could still fight on. And you don´t want to lay on top of him when he counters.

- Don't take the photo out of context. It is only paret of a second of time.

••• That is absolutely true. But still...

- Johan, my friend, I feel it is overly important to train all aspects of self-perfection so you can have self-preservation skills when you need them.

••• I wholeheartedly agree!

Nin Po Ikkan

Johan Grönwall

Kamiyama
1st March 2003, 06:44
Johan,
I’m surprised you haven’t seen this kick thrown by many of the Shihan of the Bujinkan as well as many of it’s members.
For example....
When watching Nagato shihan in the Hatsumi sensei interview at the hombu dojo he kick the crap out of his attackers many time with this kick with his lead and rear leg while being tied up. Never the less I throw it and being a senior member of the Bujinkan then it must be a Bujinkan kick right? You are correct that at first a kick is nothing, then hey here comes the names and the techniques.. then that’s gone.. and you have a kick again that is nothing but a kick..

In the Bujinkan or in any other martial art or just being in a fight with no experience you are lucky to just get a hit much less a pinpoint hit to a kyusho with the toes. And I like strength and destruction against a target. It balances out the conflict when you can’t find a kyusho or he is covered with armor of some type. I feel with all things a balance is a wonderful thing to have. If you only have kyusho and they do not work.. or you can’t seem to find a place for them to knock down your attacker.. then you may have to use strength…. Some like it hard and fast.. some like it soft and slow.. some like just broken rhythm…

I don’t believe Iwayama on a battle field would just rely on breaking a wrist in combat as would many other military members.. from what I’ve been told about the feeling of war.. it’s a bad deal.. you kill.. and kill.. till you walk away peacefully.. and go home.. But I feel I would go for the first thing I was given in a life and death conflict.. wouldn’t you?

You don't see the full pictureof these guys training.
They might have been doing knife disarms or bayonet training and went to the ground with a training idea...
It is only one photo of a whole..

As with Hatsumi sensei standing on a hill with a yari with his leg up in a very funny posture.. at first the untrained person would say this is verystrange and stupid...

I have the photo in my hall way here at the Academy.. I'm asked what he is doing everytime someone new comes in..

Hey I don't know.. and I believe I shouldn't make assumptions of what he was doing..or if his technique(s) were bad or misused.. he might have just knocked down 50 guys with that move..LOL..

kamiyama, ralph severe

Kamiyama
1st March 2003, 17:06
One more pick..
Here is Iwayama doing a kesa katame...

I hope these photos inspire other service men to be fit and have some fun with each other while you're away from home..

kamiyama, ralph severe

ninjaman
2nd March 2003, 00:29
Hi Ralph!

- Johan, I’m surprised you haven’t seen this kick thrown by many of the Shihan of the Bujinkan as well as many of it’s members.

••• Never since I started training back in -83. But I still have a lot to learn, it seems.

- When watching Nagato shihan in the Hatsumi sensei interview at the hombu dojo he kick the crap out of his attackers many time with this kick with his lead and rear leg while being tied up.

••• Haven´t seen that video. Then again, Nagato Sensei was a kickboxing champion before he started in the Bujinkan. Maybe he saw it fit to use one of his old moves in that situation.

I have heard that Soke incorporated the karate sidekick (don´t remember it´s name - Yoko Keri?) into the Bujinkan because he considered it effective.

- Never the less I throw it and being a senior member of the Bujinkan then it must be a Bujinkan kick right?

••• You are of course in your full right to kick how you see fit. But just because you are a senior member it doesn´t become Bujinkan because of that. We are all students here. But if it´s done with the proper Bujinkan taijutsu, then I guess it´s alright.

Not picking on you here Ralph, but there are people who like to improve on the techniques in the Bujinkan by adding BJ, Wrestling, Kickboxing or whatever. To me, they just are not prepared to really study this 2600 year old art and dive into it´s depths. I can not see how anybody could add something to an art that´s been around for so long. Like as if the people who trained and died for this art missed or didn´t care for some aspects of survival. And that someone from today suddenly discovers that, for instance, Bujinkan lacks groundwork and that has to be improved. That is not to say that you shouldn´t learn from other arts - how they move, throw punches, kick and so on.

Humans haven´t changed for the last 2600 years. I guess the "Bujinkan students" of old encountered the same problems as the people training martial arts today do and that they incorporated the solutions into the art.

Simply put, I believe the Bujinkan has the most "answers" when it comes to fighting since it is built upon what it means to be a human being.

- In the Bujinkan or in any other martial art or just being in a fight with no experience you are lucky to just get a hit much less a pinpoint hit to a kyusho with the toes.

••• Absolutely true. That´s why you have to aim for the kyusho and train to hit them all the time.

- But I feel I would go for the first thing I was given in a life and death conflict.. wouldn’t you?

••• Absolutely true again. No time for fancy moves. You grab what you can get and try to come out alive if possible.


Nin Po Ikkan

Johan Grönwall

Kamiyama
2nd March 2003, 11:45
My feelings about time and martial artist are I read or hear that many martial artist say they have trained for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, etc years in the martial arts. They use this as a measure of their worth or skill and you should hear them out or listen to them. The same with an art like Togakure ryuha ninpo.
Many students of arts in general feel it’s the length of time you have trained or did it. Like sex it's not the length of time you did it but the results you get within the length of time you did it. Many say they go for hours. Other say they go for seconds. If you feel the results are the same with seconds compared with hours then this is ok.
Just because it's been around for some time doesn't mean it's right or shouldn't be expanded on.



Johan, the kicking (and punching,elbows,knees) of the Bujinkan Dojo from my point of view comes from many different angles. For example, upward, downward, inside, outside and straight on. This is also the weaponry lines of engagement. These are not only Hatsumi sensei ideals but the laws of nature. Ninjutsu being an art of nature would of course follow these simple laws. A human being has the same more or less body and working characteristics. These in turn can be developed to different attributes for use that follow those natural lines of engagement. Also from my point of view these have to be understood for defense as well. On that note a student of ninjutsu ‘has’ to train different arts to be able to understand the attackers use of his characteristics. Just my point of view remember.
I disagree with your statement, “But just because you are a senior member it doesn’t become Bujinkan because of that .“ No where has Hatsumi sensei or the shidoshi guidelines booklet said this is not true. On the other hand I find it to be true because Hatsumi sensei has two arms and two legs and uses them in a natural manner, as do I. If we are both doing the same thing with our bodies as human beings then it must be taken into consideration to be the art of ninjutsu correct? To place a name as ‘yoko geri or mawashi geri’ would just be a name and this is not important to the survival of the art as well as the person training the art. If my arm or leg travels in one of those angles, upward, downward, inside outside or straight on then it’s ninjutsu if either Hatsumi sensei or I or even you are throwing it. Because we are all on the same path. The use of ‘proper Bujinkan taijutsu’ is only a state of ego or fear and has no place for the warrior that is using nature as its laws.
As for using other systems, methods or concepts with the Bujinkan arts I don’t need to. The Bujinakn arts are always changing and being updated to it’s time and environment conditions of the student training the art. The art of ninjutsu has all the BJJ, boxing, Thai boxing, catch as catch can wrestling, Jun Fan, etc in it already. Why do I say this? Because the student living in France has Savate of boxing in their culture among other things. Like the food, dance etc. (important note is they don’t have to speak German because of the outcome of WWII) If you are short and thin then your Bujinkan will look like a short and thin person doing it. And of course if you’re tall and fat of course it will look like a tall and fat person doing it. It’s all in relationship to the natural laws of your cultural background, age and make up of your human self. Take for example Hatsumi sensei and I do not look the same with our Bujinkan concepts. And Ed Martin Shihan, Bud Malmstrom Shihan or Jack Hoban Shihan all move different from the way I do and the way Hatsumi sensei does but we are all doing the same thing. We just have different bodies and backgrounds which cause different effects on the Bujinkan arts we are doing. This is why I say the use of ‘proper Bujinkan taijutsu’ is only a state of ego or fear and has no place for the warrior that is using nature as its laws.

These are just my points on the subject of body movement of a human being taining in the Bujinkan Dojo.

kamiyama, ralph severe

ninjaman
2nd March 2003, 21:17
Hi Ralph!

I feel that we agree on many things. Maybe it´s just that I express them differently than you (english not being my first language) and that we then misunderstand each other. What I am trying to convey is that the Bujinkan has within it some sort of feeling or aura that is unique to this art and sets it apart from other systems. Every grandmaster and his experiences lives within and is alive in our system. This may sound a bit "new agey", but I feel more comfortable in my searching as a martial artist knowing that a rich martial/human heritage is embedded within the Bujinkan (hope I expressed myself at least somewhat clear!).

What I mean by saying “But just because you are a senior member it doesn’t become Bujinkan because of that“ is that you from time to time encounter people who have trained for a long time within the Bujinkan and who at some point has stopped developing. They have, as Soke puts it, "died". They repeat what they once learned and thus has stopped evolving. This is something we all should fear (I know I do!). And I think that some of these people begin to incorporate other fighting styles into their training. They feel something is lacking but do not know what it is. Eventually, they brake away from Soke to start their own system or they stop training all together.

Again, this has nothing to do with being curious of other styles and learning from them the way they fight. And if BJJ has a nice strangle that you never seen before, why not incorporate it?

But:

I think to much mixing the Bujinkan with other martial arts eventually leads to confusion, since our style in many respects - both physically and especially spiritually - differs from other arts. The spiritual side might be of second consideration to many, but I think it´s the fundament of the Bujinkan, the "unseen taijutsu". But please do not make me explain what it is. It is just a feeling I get when training. Just my own small and personal angle in trying to grasp or "understand" the art.

Somewhere I mentioned doing things with the "proper Bujinkan taijutsu". By this I mean to work both the physical and the spiritual side into your techniques. To move with both the Tiger (Earth) and the Dragon (Universe), as is this years theme - Juppo Sessho. If practitioners of the Bujinkan moves in this way, then difference in body composition, culture and psyche won´t matter. Many do, and I look to them for guidance in my own training.

As for the French, well, they are what they are. But don´t forget that they fought the British and thus were a contributing factor to the forming of the U.S.A. ;)

Nin Po Ikkan

Johan Grönwall

Rolling Elbow
3rd March 2003, 01:34
Kamiyama...,

what about the thousand upon thousands of civilians who stand between american might and Hussein madness? They have no training, no weapons, and no voice.

"quick survival" skills. LAst i checked the Bujinkan taught attacks to the throat, eyes, and whatever else you can think of..Is that not survival?

Kamiyama
3rd March 2003, 10:47
What about the thousand upon thousands of civilians who stand between american might and Hussein madness? They have no training, no weapons, and no voice

This is a very good question..
The sad that people have given up their birth right to happiness, self-preservation and peace in any country. I see this in a few states here in the good old US of A too.
It’s simple. First the man tells you there’s a problem and you go alone with it. Slowly oh so slowly you lose more and more because the man tells you it’s bad and you must give up your rights to self-preservation, this mainly is the birth right to have tools of self-defense. Then come the other small rights. Then by the time the sheep wake up.. bang ! Every right is gone and you have no method to regain them. Why? Because tools of self-defense are BAD. Speech about bad government is bad. It’s all BAD. You need the man to care for you. To feed you. To house you. To cloth you. To give you medical help. Bang ! You are depended on the man then. You are under his rule.
Sounds like a fantasy doesn’t it?

Maybe this is why ninjutsu skills are so important to truely understand and to be able to apply in our day and age.

kamiyama, ralph severe

shikoyama
3rd March 2003, 22:46
Kamiyama’s comments hit at the heart of why I began training in ninjutsu (and martial arts in general) in the first place. When I first began training the world seemed like the way it is presented in the national news. And, I’d pretty much take people at face value. Through training we learn first about ourselves, then that extends to ever widening circles around us. Over time, through training, I began to perceive my surroundings differently, more critically. (Musashi said something like . . . “trough training you will come to see the truth in things”). I began to feel like I was aware of when someone was feeding me a bunch of BS. I also began to see how things presented in the media may be skewed (perhaps for political, or financial reasons, or whatever . . .). After OK City it seemed that training (at the park where my group was training) in the open was risking being perceived as “militia”, a term who’s meaning at the time was being manipulated through propaganda. It seemed like the event was being used as an excuse to subtly whittle away some of our rights. So, when Kamiyama says:

"It's simple. First the man tells you there's a problem and you go alone with it. Slowly oh so slowly you lose more and more because the man tells you it's bad and you must give up your rights to self-preservation, this mainly is the birth right to have tools of self-defense. Then come the other small rights. Then by the time the sheep wake up.. bang ! Every right is gone and you have no method to regain them. "

. . . it hits home. It IS happening now . . . since 911 your phone calls can be monitored without you knowing it, its easier to search your home and person and vehicle without a warrant ("just cause" being a flimsy "suspected of terrorism" excuse). Just or not, once THEY can do it, we are at risk. Who knows what the "office of homeland security" will deem as "worthy of a closer eye".

“Question authority”

I think it comes down to trust . . . who can you trust? I think training teaches us who and how to trust. I think basically you can ONLY trust yourself, and your VERY CLOSE group of friends . . . training partners, family, etc . . . ". Blind trust in “authority” (being sheep) seems likely to lead down the road of losing our rights.

-Ron Hughen

Kamiyama
3rd March 2003, 22:50
I believe what keeps me training and teaching ninjutsu-ninpo is the simple outline of the training and the mind set it gives you.

I feel this is a wonderful out line for the military too.

But it creates questions and personel who run..LOL

The same question applies here..
What do you feel a military member would anwser to these?

Student of History?
Student of Techniqes?
Student training to be a Martial Arts Champion?
Student of Fitness?
Student of Philosophy?
Student of Combat Readiness - Self-preservation?
Student to be a better Teacher?
Student of Self-Perfection?
Student of Self-Discovery?
Student of Spirituality?

kamiyama, ralph severe

George Kohler
3rd March 2003, 23:36
Originally posted by Kamiyama
What do you feel a military member would anwser to these?

Student of History?
Student of Techniqes?
Student training to be a Martial Arts Champion?
Student of Fitness?
Student of Philosophy?
Student of Combat Readiness - Self-preservation?
Student to be a better Teacher?
Student of Self-Perfection?
Student of Self-Discovery?
Student of Spirituality?


As a former member of the US military (1st Battalion 75th Ranger Regiment), only one of these, combat readiness, was on our minds. Actually, that was the job of our commanders. What each soldier thought about was the training. Combat readiness, was a by-product of our 12 months of training (except for two, two week periods of block leave each year).

Our main mission was to support the policies and objectives of the United States of America.