View Full Version : Jujutsu and Politics

5th September 2000, 03:47
It is a funny thing to have been Martial Arts for 28 years and watch all the things I grew up on, and watch it torn down. Today, I can say honestly that not all schools and Teachers are the same. And still I see that the game of politics have not changed. To me, and this is my opinion, when a person is attacking you or beating your wife and kids, he is not going to ask them who does your husband study with or who is this person or that. They came to do that job. We, as Martial Artists have to get back to the basics. Ryuha or Martial Tradition. I am young and foolish and yet this makes sense. To those that find me being a bit overzealous. Uis.
I am a realist, I try to teach this to my students so forgive me for looking down the barrel of a loaded gun.
Unless you train for death and accept that one day you are going to die then you are in Budo for the wrong reason. I
came into Martial Arts at the age of seven and then we were told by our Instructors that if you are using something and it is not applicable for you at the time, then practice until it does. If not, don't waste your time. I believe that all things must go back to the streets and the tatami. It is there that we prove our skills. Hey, show me someone with a 6th degree in foolishness and I will show you a white belt with some common sense. Who do you think is going to survive
I reside in Philadelphia, Pa. It is a rough town and yet, all things considering. Peace is for those that are willing to fight for it. One of my Instructors said: I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. You figure that out. Until then, Jujutsu is Jujtsu no matter how you look at it.
Yours Humbly in the Arts
Sensei Eric G. Alleyne

Neil Hawkins
5th September 2000, 05:46

Welcome, I must admit that I'm a little confused by your post, I think you are advocating a more realistic method of training, in which I'm in agreement. However I don't quite see where the politics comes into things, perhaps you can elaborate.

On your judged by 12 carried by 6, line here's a quote from Mark "Animal" MacYoung a well known streetfighter/author/instructor:

"While the stupidest 'last words' ever said -- when looking down the barrel of a gun are: "You ain't got the guts" -- the macho groin-scratching statement of "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six" comes in a very close second. That attitude is guaranteed to have another six in your future. Unfortunately, those are the six who will be raping you in the prison shower.

Building on the previous statement that having a black belt doesn't instill a law degree, it is literally your ass if you don't look into the legal issues surrounding self-defense training. Every day, people accept what their sensei told them as gospel truth regarding not only what works as self-defense, but that the cops and the courts will immediately dismiss as such! BULL! I have seen everything from breaking a man's neck from behind, to multiple stab wounds, to kicking a man while he is down and countless other "guaranteed prison-time" moves taught as self-defense. On the slim chance that you can use such a move in a real fight, they will get you in deep legal trouble if you do."

He has strong views but he does make sense. :) IMO self defense is about escape, never about fighting.



5th September 2000, 12:18
Bravo, Neil, Bravo!:toast:

5th September 2000, 13:16
Neil said

"On the slim chance that you can use such a move in a real fight, they will get you in deep legal trouble if you do."

I have to completely agree with this. Many moons ago when I first started martial arts I was given some advice which I still pass on to my students.

Self defence isn't just about surviving a fight. It's about surviving the whole situation.

The examples he gave were:-

Someone hits you, your break his arm. His mates track you down and kick the c**p out of you.

Some drunk picks a fight with you, you throw him, he hits his head hard on concerete and is permanenently brain damaged. You get sued for millions.

Not to mention all the "hit him before he hits you pre-empative strike" school of self defence that I've heard of. (other wise known as strike now, prison later !)

18th September 2000, 09:54
Well said Niel!

Despite the generation gap we still come from the same school mate!

Look forerward to seeing you in October.

I, as Niel already said, would like to know what you mean by "Politics" you obviously feel strongly about it but I failed to see the relevance.

I do appreciate the need for a more realistic approach to training, as this is what has made Jujitsu so effective through so many years, but have reservations about using such statements as "I would rather be judged by....".
I believe that these statements foster an aggressive approach to training and demonstrate a lack of responsibility in instructors.
I understand the noble intentions behind such statements and acknowledge that, in teaching self defence, the instuctor is obliged to teach the most effective/efficient method.
What I believe is that instructors who encourage this type of training should also encourage thier students to research the assault/self defence laws in thier community. This allows the student every opportunity to defend themselves throughout the whole situation.
In teaching self defence it is always hard to nurture the combative instincts within a student whilst at the same time making sure they understand the limits and legal obligations by which they are bound.
I, personally, am an advocate of peace and always hope that in a tight situation there will be no need for anyone to be judged by 12 nor carried by six and believe that this point need not be highlighted.

Maybe I am young and foolish but to me Jujitsu is still the gentle art and peace is clouded by those who fight. To strive for peace is Budo to fight for peace counter-productive.

Just my 2 cents!

Yours in Budo
Dale Elsdon

18th September 2000, 22:49
It is a thing for all concerned that think that I have no consiousness, I was speaking to a fact that has haunted Martial Arts in America. I hope that many that read this will come to understand, I have seen things from both ends of the spectrum. I have a friend that is in Jail serving a life sentence for protecting his life in Self-Defense. If any of you had your kimchee in the Sights of a preadator would agree with me that you do not have the time to say hold on there guy, wait a minute. Come back tommorrow and I will be ready for you. Combat is combat. To the term Budo and Bujitsu I hope that we understand that the warriors of the Japanese Samuri have few equals. I am not a person that honors physical confrontation. I believe in peace just like the next guy and yet, Budo and Bujitsu is seeped in Bloodshed and the Battlefield. So if you are telling me that with discipline,that I can ward off that PCP jacked up felon that wants to take my head off then you are sadly mistaken. That I should cool him down with wise sayings and poetry. It just does not work. As to the Politics issue, I am speaking to many of you that have climbed the Rung of Martial Success by buying your way to the top. America is filled with such stories. I can tell you that I have no love for Pretend Martial Artists. I say that the best place to settle skill is the Tatami.
If you have earned your position through labor and sweat, I have the greatest respect for you, it is to those who have the nerve to call themselves Martial Artists and never spent years under tutelage of a Reputable Master. These are the Charletons that I have no love for.
As for the comment to the Spiritual side of Martial Science,
it has many merits that gives each warrior that edge in Combat and Life. I have one thing on my mind, to be the best Martial Artist that I can be, and the best Instrutor and Role model for my students. So, I do not intend on lying for the sake of Giri or anything else. Ego and self should be sacrificed for the greater good of the Martial Artist. Yet, what do I tell my classmate in Jail, Hey brother study the Law and do not protect your life or property. Visit his grave, tell his kids that Dad was a good man.
America has a lot to learn of Eastern culture, I have been seeped in this way of life for 28 years and I still consider my self a beginner.Uis
Yours Humbly in the Arts
Sensei Eric G.Alleyne

19th September 2000, 01:22
Please do not think that I was targeting you or implying you "have no conciousness" I was merely stating my opinion to the issue you posted in the forum. I hope you have no hard feelings. My discussion was based on the manner in which you stated your point and I have stated that I have nothing but respect for your intentions.

I certainly agree with you that "combat is combat" and when the grit hits the fan you must be prepared to do what is neccessary to defend the way of peace. Unfortunately, as in the case of your classmate, people do get hurt/killed as a result of physical combat and that is something we all need to come to terms with. I have heard of instances where someone pushes/throws/hits someone who trips and hits thier head, these are unfortunate realities which I hope nobody ever has to face.

I have great sympathy for your classmate serving time as well as all those affected by the circumstances surrounding it. I can only hope that, for his sake, he truly believes he did the right thing. I also hope that some good came out of the situation and inspired others to research the law or decide how far are they willing to go to defend what they see as right.

There has always and will always be great disscussion as to how far someone would go to defend themselves/family or property. There are also many discussions as to how they would react and how they would go about it. These discussions inevitably evolve into hypothetical situations and unprecedented hypthetical responses. For this reason I find it hard to ever judge someone on thier actions in combat and am always saddenned that it ever had to happen in the first place. I am not speaking without experience, I have had my share of altercations and am pleased with the outcome, I also have aquaintances senetced to Juvenile Detention Centres for what they classed as self defence.
The law in Australia, UK and America only acts on facts, and the fact is combat is unpredictable, it can be rehearsed in a controlled environment using many variables but in reality complex human emotions, drugs, amount of sleep, alcohol and the weather make any fight unpredictable.

Until we are under constant survielance, or a better system is found, then the courts will always be based on assumption and doubt and people make mistakes.

Respectfully yours in Budo
Dale Elsdon
(Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu)

Neil Hawkins
19th September 2000, 03:07

This is probably better off in the CQC Forum, but the there is a seperation between traditional koryu jujutsu and self defense. If you want self defense(SD)then jujutsu is not the most efficient way of getting it. If you practice jujutsu for years you will, as a by product, be able to defend yourself, but it doesn't happen quickly. People say that jujutsu was designed for SD, and that is true, but the circumstances that it was designed for don't exist today. You can modify and adapt what you are taught to make it SD, but only after you fully understand what is taught, that doesn't come after a few months practice.

In SD you must be aware of the consequences and be prepared to go to jail if it is found you over-stepped the mark. People go on about life threatening situations, but realistically and statistically there is a very small chance of a normal person being confronted like this. People don't like to admit it, but if their life is seriously threatened, they usually did something stupid to get in that situation. It is also likely that the situation can be avoided by actions other than fighting. I am not going to harp on about this, but there are always other options open to you. For some good ideas see http://www.ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_davis_0900.htm which talks about knife fights but applies to all SD situations.

If you do have to fight, the key is "Minimum necessary force" those or similar words are in the laws that govern SD actions in most countries. They mean that you choose a appropriate response and whatever you do to negate the threat, you stop as soon as the threat is gone. If you are concerned about what is appropriate I suggest that you speak to your local LEO's or a lawyer.

It is unfortunate, but in this day and age you have to think about a much bigger picture, especially if you teach this stuff. If someone you teach does something that a court terms illegal, but they can prove that you taught them to do it, you become liable for their actions. I don't like it but it's a fact of life. But to re-inforce the point, 99% of the time you can avoid conflict by a variety of methods that I'm sure we're all aware of.

This does not mean you can't defend yourself, it just means that you need to train in such a way that you practice effective, but appropriate responses and that you ensure that you accept the consequences of your actions. But to re-inforce the point, 99% of the time you can avoid conflict by a variety of methods that I'm sure we're all aware of. To me self defense is about escape, not fighting.

Now I was going to ignore the following but I can't help myself:
As to the Politics issue, I am speaking to many of you that have climbed the Rung of Martial Success by buying your way to the top. America is filled with such stories. I can tell you that I have no love for Pretend Martial Artists. I say that the best place to settle skill is the Tatami.

We have a forum here called "Bad Budo" and that is a good spot to bring up these issues, you are always going to come across people that exagerate their qualifications or experience, but most of the people on this board got their rank the old fashioned way and those that didn't don't last very long. I don't like the generalisation and hope that you were not referring to anyone here, but as I said they are out there and we do like to expose them if they are a danger to the public.