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Bradenn
5th March 2003, 13:49
This may seem a silly question, but are all the Japanese Bujinkan shihan (e.g. Nagato-sensei, Noguchi-sensei and others) all 14th dan?

I've heard that not all of them are, but this could be wrong.

I know that the Budo is important not the rank etc etc. etc, but it seems odd that Europeans and Americans who have only been training since the 1980s and who don't live in Japan can outrank Japanese practitioners who have done it since the 1960s and live in Japan and presumably see Hatsumi-sensei much more often.

Moko
5th March 2003, 14:20
Last time I trained with Seno-Sensei he had a Godan patch on. Well it was still on by a couple of threads but it was mostly off. I don't think he's too concerned with it. He did seem happy that he had been training with Soke for 38 years though.

Bradenn
5th March 2003, 14:23
Originally posted by Moko
He did seem happy that he had been training with Soke for 38 years though.

I would be as well:)


38 years - that is scary.

kimq
5th March 2003, 15:15
Originally posted by Bradenn
I know that the Budo is important not the rank etc etc. etc, but it seems odd that Europeans and Americans who have only been training since the 1980s and who don't live in Japan can outrank Japanese practitioners who have done it since the 1960s and live in Japan and presumably see Hatsumi-sensei much more often.

I suggest, given the above, that perhaps it's not about rank. It would seem that sometimes we have to read between the lines. Just because something isn't said outright doesn't mean that it's not a part of the statement.

bencole
5th March 2003, 16:43
Originally posted by Bradenn
This may seem a silly question, but are all the Japanese Bujinkan shihan (e.g. Nagato-sensei, Noguchi-sensei and others) all 14th dan?

To my knowledge, no, they are not all 14th dan. But who really cares?


I know that the Budo is important not the rank etc etc. etc, but it seems odd that Europeans and Americans who have only been training since the 1980s and who don't live in Japan can outrank Japanese practitioners who have done it since the 1960s and live in Japan and presumably see Hatsumi-sensei much more often.

So does that mean that the 14th dan Foreigners shouldn't train with a Japanese 12th dan? Hmmm..... Is this indicative of the types of quandaries we face at all "levels" in our training? Hmmm.... Is this a test of whether people are guided by rank or guided by Budo? Hmmm....

I know it is hard for many to wrap their brains around, but creating this type of quandary for people is one of Hatsumi-sensei's greatest gifts! :D LOL!

Those who are able to figure this point out go furthest in the art, imo....

-ben

Bradenn
5th March 2003, 16:59
Originally posted by bencole

To my knowledge, no, they are not all 14th dan. But who really cares?

So does that mean that the 14th dan Foreigners shouldn't train with a Japanese 12th dan? Hmmm..... Is this indicative of the types of quandaries we face at all "levels" in our training? Hmmm.... Is this a test of whether people are guided by rank or guided by Budo? Hmmm....

I know it is hard for many to wrap their brains around, but creating this type of quandary for people is one of Hatsumi-sensei's greatest gifts! :D LOL!

Those who are able to figure this point out go furthest in the art, imo....

-ben

Well, rank is no big deal for me. There are white belts who can teach me a thing or two and I'm not too proud to learn from them.

But, I confess this particular issue IS hard to wrap my brain around.
For example, are 12 dan Japanese not allowed to perform the Godan test?

Bradenn
5th March 2003, 17:36
I just realised that I wouldn't want a 14th dan.

In an English translation of one of Hatsumi-sensei's books (maybe Ninja Submission or Sengoku Ninpo Zukan, I can't remember) I remember reading that the Godan test may only be performed by the soke of Togakure Ryu and that if anyone else did it they would suffer the wrath of heaven.

Apparently 14th dans have performed the sakki test at Tai Kai or Daikomyosai, so I wouldn't want to be in their shoes :)

I mean it's like opening Tutankhamen's tomb or the Ark of the Covenant.

Jason Chambers
5th March 2003, 18:11
Originally posted by Bradenn


I would be as well:)


38 years - that is scary.

DAAAMN!

studious_ninja
5th March 2003, 19:09
Originally posted by Bradenn
I just realised that I wouldn't want a 14th dan.

In an English translation of one of Hatsumi-sensei's books (maybe Ninja Submission or Sengoku Ninpo Zukan, I can't remember) I remember reading that the Godan test may only be performed by the soke of Togakure Ryu and that if anyone else did it they would suffer the wrath of heaven.

Apparently 14th dans have performed the sakki test at Tai Kai or Daikomyosai, so I wouldn't want to be in their shoes :)

I mean it's like opening Tutankhamen's tomb or the Ark of the Covenant.

Hatsumi has allowed the 14th dans to perform the sakki test as part of their training. I do not think Hatsumi would willingly put his students in the way of 'heaven's wrath' Well, most of them anyway. ;)

Syd Sked

poryu
6th March 2003, 08:16
Originally posted by studious_ninja


Hatsumi has allowed the 14th dans to perform the sakki test as part of their training. I do not think Hatsumi would willingly put his students in the way of 'heaven's wrath' Well, most of them anyway. ;)

Syd Sked

I dont know. I have this image from the start of Monty Python in my head.

The big foot coming down from heaven

:saw: this is the image of the new sakki test I am told

Rodgers
6th March 2003, 14:26
Benjamin Cole, I find your posts interesting, it's not strictly what you say, but often what you don't say. Do you by any chance keep a journal of words that interest you?

-Benjamin Rodgers

yama-nagare
6th March 2003, 19:01
So what makes the Godan test so special now that 14 dan are giving it? I'll be honest I am not at all proud to tell people that there are 14 dans in this art! I used to believe that the Godan was a special connection between you and Hatsumi..not you and Hoban or Sveneric( I just picked those two names out of the blue ). I know I will never take the Godan test unless it is from Hatsumi or the next Soke, not from the get-along gang of shihans.

kimq
6th March 2003, 19:18
Originally posted by yama-nagare
get-along gang of shihans.

:eek:

studious_ninja
6th March 2003, 19:28
Originally posted by yama-nagare
So what makes the Godan test so special now that 14 dan are giving it? I'll be honest I am not at all proud to tell people that there are 14 dans in this art! I used to believe that the Godan was a special connection between you and Hatsumi..not you and Hoban or Sveneric( I just picked those two names out of the blue ). I know I will never take the Godan test unless it is from Hatsumi or the next Soke, not from the get-along gang of shihans.

What if Hatsumi is not around when you reach the level where you are able to take the godan test? What if there is no next Soke? There is the thought that because the 14th dans are starting to learn to give the godan test that Hatsumi has no plans to appoint a lone successor.

Syd Sked

The Tengu
6th March 2003, 19:50
Damn, are you guys really that concerned with getting ranked by Hatsumi?

yama-nagare
6th March 2003, 20:33
Then I just won't take the test! As for me Mr. Mueller I'm not worried about it, in a street fight it does'nt matter what rank you are or who gave you the test...it's who walks away. I was just expressing myself in the forum....No hard feelings I hope.:D

The Tengu
6th March 2003, 20:54
Originally posted by yama-nagare
I was just expressing myself in the forum....LOL, bad move dude. ;)

yama-nagare
6th March 2003, 22:18
I guess it was a bad move to express myself in a forum. 1 less shidoshi, there should be 1000 less shidoshi Mr. Mueller...considering that just about anybody can take the test.I know there is supposedly rules, but how many people have lied and passed the test?.. I am a member of the Bujinkan and I'm sorry I don't believe half of the Bullsh_t that people say in these forums. I am very aware that the Bujinkan is not a street fighting art...but I believe it can save me in a street fight if need be...what do you think? It sure as hell is'nt a tournament art. it's an art where 90% of the practitioners think that they know the answers to everything. I train because I respect Sensei and his art...not neccessarily the people within the art! There are to many phonies in this art, These forums are a great place to find them...

DWeidman
6th March 2003, 23:05
Originally posted by bencole
So does that mean that the 14th dan Foreigners shouldn't train with a Japanese 12th dan?

-ben

Totally. 14th is WAY better than 12th (by at least 2).

Always go with the highest number.

I am just disappointed there is only 15. It would be way cooler if we had like 200.

Yeah - like totally...

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

El Guapo-san
6th March 2003, 23:33
Yeah, like this:

Nigel: This is a top to a—you know, what we use on stage, but it's very, very special because if you can see...
Marty: Yeah...
Nigel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look...right across the board.
Marty: Ahh...oh, I see....
Nigel: Eleven...eleven...eleven....
Marty: ..and most of these amps go up to ten....
Nigel: Exactly.
Marty: Does that mean it's...louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here...all the way up...all the way up....
Marty: Yeah....
Nigel: ...all the way up. You're on ten on your guitar.. where can you go from there? Where?
Marty: I don't know....
Nigel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
[pause]
Nigel: These go to eleven.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

ronin3
8th March 2003, 18:40
Young people today seem to have very little manners.:rolleyes:

kimq
10th March 2003, 01:31
Originally posted by yama-nagare
...how many people have lied and passed the test...

(snip)

...I train because I respect Sensei and his art...

Um, how come the first statement doesn't seem to jive with the second? :rolleyes:

yama-nagare
10th March 2003, 01:52
Do you think that everybody that takes the test is honest?....

Ichigeki Boy
10th March 2003, 10:58
Whats the test? you mention people lying in it..that must mean its either a written or a verbal test am i right? can someone explain to me how this test works? and is it only performed in front of Hatsumi Sensei? Thank you.

Bu Nasser

kimq
10th March 2003, 15:24
Originally posted by yama-nagare
Do you think that everybody that takes the test is honest?....

From my limited knowledge of the Godan test it is my understanding that it is mainly Soke, rather than the student, that is the root of the exam. It would seem to me that Soke has more control over who passes and who does not than the actual students.

The Godan test has a prospective Shidoshi sit in seiza facing away from Soke with his eyes closed. Soke is armed with a shinai. The student is supposed to feel Soke's killer intent before the moment that he is struck from behind and escape unharmed.

yama-nagare
10th March 2003, 16:10
There has been several people take the test and pass who have lied about their training and experience...I know of 8 shidoshi who lied and passed!! How do I know they lied? In my work I have access to tons of info both military and government. So before you tell me your ex this or that you better be it!! I think that they should put stricter rules on who takes. At one point they use to require a letter from your shidoshi to take the test...Is that still in effect or not really?...I think its a shame when people lie to Sensei just to get rank!! That is the point I was trying to make before.

The Tengu
10th March 2003, 16:41
Originally posted by yama-nagare
There has been several people take the test and pass who have lied about their training and experience...I know of 8 shidoshi who lied and passed!! How do I know they lied? In my work I have access to tons of info both military and government. So before you tell me your ex this or that you better be it!! I think that they should put stricter rules on who takes. At one point they use to require a letter from your shidoshi to take the test...Is that still in effect or not really?...I think its a shame when people lie to Sensei just to get rank!! That is the point I was trying to make before. So what I'm reading is that, through your access to vast amounts of military and government information, you can determine if an individual has the knowledge and skills necessary to receive a letter of recommendation from their teacher to take the Bujinkan godan test. Is that what you're saying?

kimq
10th March 2003, 16:44
Originally posted by yama-nagare
There has been several people take the test and pass who have lied about their training and experience...I know of 8 shidoshi who lied and passed!!

Um, did these guys lie about their training in the Bujinkan or in other pursuits? If it is in other pursuits, I question the validity of this line of attack on them regarding their Bujinkan training.

Another aspect to this that should be addressed are these people's names. Things don't fly very well without names, though it may not be proper to mention them, but without them it all seems to be rather weak form of attack.

Finally, sometimes things slip through the cracks - epecially when dealing with organizations as large as the global Bujinkan body.

studious_ninja
10th March 2003, 16:44
It would seem that you're more concerned about who takes and passes the godan test than Hatsumi is. What place is it of yours? Hatsumi has a wonderful way of letting people dig their own graves, so to speak. He often speaks about having the right heart, knowing those that don't have that 'right heart' will disappear over time. If he's not concerned, why should you be?

Syd Sked

yama-nagare
10th March 2003, 17:51
Here we go,

1. When I mention past experience...does'nt the bujinkan promote people on life experience as well as training? The several shidoshi I speak of LIED about both life experience and There BBT training. They took the test without letters from there shidoshi. I apologize for not mentioning names but I don't think that names are important.

2. Why is it important to me who takes the test? When I started training in the Bujinkan the Godan was the ultimate test of your training. To reach it meant you had achieved a level where you are ready to really begin your training. Now there are Shodans that are more skillful than some judans!! Achieving your Godan has become more status than skill.... what happened to training because you cared and not because of what patch you wear on your gi?....

3. I want everybody to UNDERSTAND ( big word ), that I am not attacking Hatsumi-Sensei or the Bujinkan...I am attacking the Phonies and liars in the organization that give Bujinkan a bad name...

Let the war continue
;)

bencole
10th March 2003, 18:06
Originally posted by yama-nagare
At one point they use to require a letter from your shidoshi to take the test...Is that still in effect or not really?...

A letter is required.


I think its a shame when people lie to Sensei just to get rank!! That is the point I was trying to make before.

People who must lie to Soke to get the piece of paper are not Shidoshi in my opinion.

This is regardless of the paper on the wall. A true Shidoshi embodies integrity, has made a personal connection with Soke, and has the responsibility to impart to his/her best capability the arts of the Bujinkan.

Those who would lie are not the men (or women) they pretend to be. Their hearts are "bad" (as Soke would say) and they shall be haunted forever by their conscience--knowing that they are not a true Shidoshi deep down, regardless of the paper.


I think that they should put stricter rules on who takes.

NO ONE but Soke decides who takes the test. No letter is going to allow you the "right to sit" the exam. It helps, because that Shidoshi is putting his/her name on the quality of the student in question. In the end, however, Soke decides.

I've seen Soke grab someone in the middle of training, sit him down, and then insist on giving him the test right then and there! (Was he a fourth dan with a letter from his Shidoshi? Hell if I know, but this was Soke's decision, so who am I to disagree!?!)

When people stopped to look, Soke admonished them that it was none of their concern (e.g. it was between Soke and the student) and that everyone should just keep training. Hmm.... Maybe those words are equally applicable to us even now....

Your concern is to become the best Shidoshi/practitioner that you can be. The rank of others is not your concern, and in no way does it affect the quality of your Budo. If anything, the existence of such people should make you want to BE BETTER, BE TRUER, and BE PURER than any of those people. It should push you to learn well, to be the man/woman that YOU believe embody a "proper Shidoshi." Use your knowledge of others' trangressions to better yourself. In the end, you answer only to your own consience.

-ben

kimq
10th March 2003, 18:08
Originally posted by yama-nagare
Here we go,

1. When I mention past experience...does'nt the bujinkan promote people on life experience as well as training? The several shidoshi I speak of LIED about both life experience and There BBT training. They took the test without letters from there shidoshi. I apologize for not mentioning names but I don't think that names are important.

Eee. I don't think Bujinkan rank reflects life experience. It shouldn't, either, in my opinion.

As for lying about their Bujinkan experience, it is entire possible. I never claimed that it wasn't. Unfortunately, without names this is nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumor and should be treated as such.


Let the war continue

:eek:

War? What war? No one told me this was a war. I thought this was a discussion. If to you this is a flame war, then I'm just going to let it drop...

...war? Ooo-kay. :rolleyes:

kimq
10th March 2003, 18:13
Originally posted by bencole
Maybe those words are equally applicable to us even now.

:D :smash: :nw: :toast:

Tamdhu
10th March 2003, 18:49
what happened to training because you cared and not because of what patch you wear on your gi?....

This is a question that only has meaning when we ask it of ourselves. If we ask it of others it is meaningless.

Sour grapes and bickering.

yama-nagare
10th March 2003, 18:54
Thank you Mr. Cole, Your reply was excellent and I will take it to heart...

When I say war..I mean the war against the liars, phonies, etc....



Ooooo-kaaaayyy:p

Oni Arashi
25th March 2003, 07:05
Mr. Cole,
Why is the letter necessary. We all send for ranks from Hombu. Hatsumi signs them all. I think I can't read Kanji.

The Tengu
25th March 2003, 13:09
Originally posted by Oni Arashi
Mr. Cole,
Why is the letter necessary. We all send for ranks from Hombu. Hatsumi signs them all. I think I can't read Kanji. A letter of recommendation is required to take the godan test.

poryu
25th March 2003, 13:35
Hi all

the letter is sometimes a sign of respect and also to assure Hatsumi that this person is a valid candidate for the 5th dan test. At Taikai you are now requested to bring a 4th dan certificate.

You need to bring a certificate to prove you are 4th dan, I think this came about because some years ago someone who was 2nd dan managed to sneak in and take the test. In my opinion that person should have been expelled.

What you also habve to understand is there as over 100,000 in the bujinkan. doubt Hatsumi could name all the 10th dan if you lined them all up in front of him so how is he to know who is a 4th dan or not by face.

One of my close German friends was 4th dan and off to Japan. I wanted him to take the test again as he had failed it in Holland. As I dont write japanese. i wrote a letter for him to Hatsumi. This letter detailed how long i had known him and how much he had trained. This letter was also accompanied with a letter to someone who knew me in Japan, was known to Hatsumi, and who read and spoke Japanese. In that letter I asked them to translate the letter for my friend to hatsumi. In the letter I also mentioned to Hatsumi that I wished this person to take the test only if he felt this perosn was ready. My friend did take and pass the test.

Its all a matter of ettiquete and resepct for the soke. Make life a little wasiier for him, he isnt geting any younger and he needs the help of shidoshi, to make his job easier. Dont just go to a taikai or japan and insist that you are taking the test. Get the backing of someone who is known and you will get that chance to take it.

take note of what ben also said. It is between you and Soke

The Tengu
25th March 2003, 15:00
So I guess you can summarize the letter thing like this:

Hatsumi can and does give the test to anyone he wants, but at Tai Kai people line up to take the test and the letter and the rank paper are a way of "proving" that they are qualified since Hatsumi probably has no clue who the hell the 4th dan sitting in front of him is.

Moko
25th March 2003, 18:06
There are no more Tai Kai. You can count them on one hand. So if you're a Yondan you obviously have a Shidohi for a teacher who will help you out.

If you're not a Yondan, I really wouldn't worry about it.

True story.

Two different people.

One was teaching in a city for years. He was Yondan, (for years)when the second one pulled into town. The second one was Sandan. Sandan's Dad didn't like the fact that his boy wasn't ranked as high as the Yondan or higher. They fly to Japan and the Sandan comes back Godan. (Got nailed on the shoulder, tells everyone it was perfect Lol. )
Yondan goes to Japan and attends Daikomio Sai. Unfortunately on day one, it was with a Judan (buyu) who tells him to grade at the end of training that day. Yondan said something like "Yeah yeah" and didn't grade. Judan caught him after grading. It was ugly. Next day Yondan graded and did very well. I never saw the test.

Who do you have more respect for?

Bottom line don't sweat the rank thing. Study budo. Train. Attend seminars.

Kamiyama
26th March 2003, 10:15
You need to bring a certificate to prove you are 4th dan, I think this came about because some years ago someone who was 2nd dan managed to sneak in and take the test. In my opinion that person should have been expelled.

kamiyama, I know one of my past students did this.
Scott G. was a sandan and took the test at the Taikai.
I did not go to that Taikai.
I expelled him right after I found out from my Dojo.
He joined the Genbukan I believe after that.

kamiyama, ralph severe

Synik
28th April 2003, 02:28
Originally posted by Kamiyama
You need to bring a certificate to prove you are 4th dan, I think this came about because some years ago someone who was 2nd dan managed to sneak in and take the test. In my opinion that person should have been expelled.

kamiyama, I know one of my past students did this.
Scott G. was a sandan and took the test at the Taikai.
I did not go to that Taikai.
I expelled him right after I found out from my Dojo.
He joined the Genbukan I believe after that.

kamiyama, ralph severe

And I was there when Scott took his Godan, and it's not quite as simple as you put it. This isn't the place to air this laundry, because it will certainly reveal some very ugly things about you Ralph - some things that have ostracized (SP?) you from many in the Bujinkan, even in Japan (I have a copy of the letter you wrote regarding Hatsumi Sensei and his "pathetic level of skill", I don't think you want to go there.).

I think the big deal here is that when you ask someone who their teacher was/is in the Bujinkan, it changes your opinion of them/their rank/their skill. If someone is a Godan, and you ask them who their teacher was prior to Godan, and they say for example, "Chris Davy", then I think knowing that Chris has been to Japan many times and has trained for many years brings out a certain level of integrity and credibility to that students' grade. But when someone replies with, "Ralph Severe", I think one views that same grade in a different manner. This really should not ever happen, but because there is a lack of organizational structure in the Bujinkan with regards to rank, it allows this sort of thing to manifest. If rank wasn't important, it wouldn't exist. (I know why Scott left the Bujinkan for the Genbukan too, and it's sad that he made that decision). One thing is clear - when one is ranked a Godan in the Genbukan, you better damn well believe that they are a Godan. There's a special certificate in addition to rank paper, and there's no room for slack. It seems that Mr. Tanemura has taken into account proper grading methodologies and practices, and has removed (for the most part) the issue that the Bujinkan faces with instructors of the same rank having great variances in skill, in the U.S. That's not to question what Hatsumi Sensei has done in regards to ranking, he's the Soke and it's his show. But for some reason, not all Godan coming out of North America have the same level of curriculum/training/skill under their belts. Why is that? What's the excuse?

-Tony

Miuki
28th April 2003, 06:34
http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/

9 March entry RE grading refers.

Kamiyama
28th April 2003, 07:28
Tony, I can respect your opinions. But what does your opinions mean?

If you have any questions regarding the people I have passed to black belt level please refer to my web site. They are listed there.

Thanks,

kamiyama, ralph severe

Moko
28th April 2003, 17:58
The post was simple and clear.

I have noticed that whenever you need to evade a series of hard questions, Ralph you ask for clarification. It's called a fillibuster, I beleive.

Kamiyama
28th April 2003, 21:26
Moko, If you have any questions you are more than welcome to ask directly and I will answer directly. I believe I'm know over the web for direct and honest answers to any questions. In person I'm the same.

Like I posted, "Tony, I can respect your opinions. But what does your opinions mean"?
I don't believe you are Tony...are you?

kamiyama, ralph severe

ChrisMoon
29th April 2003, 00:23
Personally I thought you were very clear and concise. I sent you a pm, I have a few questions for you.