PDA

View Full Version : Are we being scammed?



OkudenDojo
6th March 2003, 18:25
I think this deserves its own thread…..

Are we being scammed?

Do you think Japanese Instructors are teaching you that same way as they were taught? Are they purposely hiding their techniques or teaching incorrectly? Or are we being scammed?

We now have the world at the tip of our fingertips. You can find anything on the web… even the truth. Years ago Hatsumi sensei said he was the only student of Takamatsu sensei. Today we know there were others. The lineage of sokes cannot be proven and it may even be false. (See koryu.com search for Hatsumi).

Most likely your rank certificate says Dan/Kyu Rank in Budo or Ninpo Taijutsu… but not in any specific ryuha. Why? The original shihans received Menkyo (Shoden, Chuden, Okuden…) licenses and densho. Today we have 13th, 14th, & 15th dan (Chi, Sui, Ka…). Why? Many believe ground fighting (newaza) is nonexistent to Ninpo. Is it really?



Victor Rafael Acevedo de Lares
“The truth is out there”

Eric Baluja
6th March 2003, 18:49
Of course. Let me qualify:

1) As a student, you are not entitled to anything. You don't have the inalienable right to learn everything a teacher knows;

2) If you're a student of e.g., Hatsumi Sensei, who travels to Japan at best 2 times a year, maybe 2 weeks at a time, or what amounts to not much more than 'face time' with your teacher, how much do you think you're going to be exposed to? How much do you think you have a right to be taught? And if you're a student of that student/shidoshi, how much do you think you're going to get?;

3) It has been mentioned that there is special training for a group of young Japanese students in the Bujinkan honbu (I forget the name of this group, sorry). Do you think that's unfair? Sure it is! But that's just as it should be. That's the way it's always been in Japanese martial arts, except for those arts whose main purpose was to be teachable to many people, e.g., judo.

Personally, I think the worst thing that ever happened to koryu bujutsu in general and the so-called 'Takamatsu-den' in particular is that so many of us ever heard of them. It's like adding water to scotch -- you'll have more liquid, but the taste is weak and watered-down.

Just an opinion.

kimq
6th March 2003, 19:38
Originally posted by OkudenDojo
Do you think Japanese Instructors are teaching you that same way as they were taught?

No. This is the same reason why relationships between three people will always be the different. They way I share information to one person may have to change for the next because of their way of collecting information.


Are they purposely hiding their techniques or teaching incorrectly?

There is no way for this to be determined, now is there?


Or are we being scammed?

I don't think so.


We now have the world at the tip of our fingertips. You can find anything on the web… even the truth.

IMO, the web is the WORST valid material source in the world. The whole truth is not on the web.


Years ago Hatsumi sensei said he was the only student of Takamatsu sensei.

First, when was that? Second, perhaps you should look deeper into the meaning of "student" in context with what Soke may have said.


The lineage of sokes cannot be proven and it may even be false. (See koryu.com search for Hatsumi).

So what if it can't be proven? So what if it's proven false? If you need that sort of thing to give validity to your martial studies, go take a Koryu art and stop worrying about such things.


Most likely your rank certificate says Dan/Kyu Rank in Budo or Ninpo Taijutsu… but not in any specific ryuha. Why? The original shihans received Menkyo (Shoden, Chuden, Okuden…) licenses and densho. Today we have 13th, 14th, & 15th dan (Chi, Sui, Ka…). Why?

Like everyone else, Soke learns and develops each day. It is likely that his teaching attitude and style has changed much over time. I know that my teacher's have. I also know that my training attitude and style has changed since I first started. Evolution and moving forward are a big aspect of martial arts.


Many believe ground fighting (newaza) is nonexistent to Ninpo. Is it really?

No. Is it as refined at GJJ in regards to groundfighting only? No. The same can be said for boxing. I can't out-strike a boxer, and I would be stupid to confront one in his realm of expertise. This is not to say that I have other distances and tools in which to confront and likely defeat him in.

It's all about breadth versus depth. GJJ seems to have a deep skillset in a limited scope. BBT has a wide skillset in all scopes. Once we have a grasp of the principles in all scopes, we can then dig deeper into each but remain rounded combatants. Consider the evolution of the fighters in the UFC from the beginning.

The Tengu
6th March 2003, 19:43
Originally posted by OkudenDojo
Do you think Japanese Instructors are teaching you that same way as they were taught? Are they purposely hiding their techniques or teaching incorrectly?Are there some secrets we do not learn from them? Of course, that's what kuden is all about.

Originally posted by OkudenDojo
Years ago Hatsumi sensei said he was the only student of Takamatsu sensei. Today we know there were others.I think this is in reference to Takamatsu not accepting any new personal students after Hatsumi. As far as I have been told, that is true.

Originally posted by OkudenDojo
Most likely your rank certificate says Dan/Kyu Rank in Budo or Ninpo Taijutsu… but not in any specific ryuha. Why? The original shihans received Menkyo (Shoden, Chuden, Okuden…) licenses and densho.These are the guys who were training with Hatsumi Sensei before there was even a "Bujinkan" organization.

Originally posted by OkudenDojo
Many believe ground fighting (newaza) is nonexistent to Ninpo. Is it really? Is NHB/MMA/BJJ/SubmissionFighting part of Bujinkan curriculum? No.

But is there groundfighting in ninpo? Yes.

Originally posted by OkudenDojo
The lineage of sokes cannot be proven and it may even be false. (See koryu.com search for Hatsumi). I don't think you should worry about it. If you are a member of the Bujinkan (I'm assuming you are by the way you're posting) and you enjoy your training, then stick with it and keep going. If you feel that it's useful for you stick with it.

If you just HAVE to study a 100% verifiable, ancient Japanese martial art regardless of its effectiveness, move on and good luck!

Tamdhu
6th March 2003, 20:13
Those who have gone far with this training have done so with honesty and perseverance. You won't find these things rattling your keyboard and cruising the Internet.

All the other questions you raise are purely subjective. There are no hard-fast answers to any of them that I know of. It will always be up to you to judge for yourself.

pete lohstroh
6th March 2003, 20:21
Mr. Acevedo de Lares,
the question posed by your thread is inflammatory and ignorant. Is it a "scam" to reserve higher level (and potentially dangerous) teachings for students who have gained technical proficiency and trust in a large organization largely populated with low proficiency practitioners (like me)?

Shinobi2003
6th March 2003, 20:27
I am a member of the Bujinkan, I enjoy the training and it has helped me tremendously in my personal life and mental state. I will keep going....

Last night, I read the thread "Togakure Ryu Lineage" and my heart sank. Although I do enjoy my training, I do not want to associate myself with an art that was founded on fiction. I sincerely hope that Takamatsu, being the great warrior that we was, was honest regarding the lineage. Authenticity is the reason I chose this art.

My insecurities have been magnified by all the doubt regarding Ninpo. But, being in the Bujinkan I don't take other MA seriously (TKD, Kung Fu, etc) There is no reason they should take my art seriously.

When I express my doubts to my instructor, he says the densho do exist and I am being trivial. I just would like to know the truth...

And people in hell want ice water too, huh?

Michael Lumpkin
Indianapolis Bujinkan Dojo

Ninja Kl0wn
6th March 2003, 20:31
Originally posted by kimq


So what if it can't be proven? So what if it's proven false? If you need that sort of thing to give validity to your martial studies, go take a Koryu art and stop worrying about such things.


Just to play Devil's Advocate here, aren't those some of the major arguements everyone uses against people claiming to teach Koga ninjutsu?

The Tengu
6th March 2003, 20:48
Originally posted by Ninja Kl0wn
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, aren't those some of the major arguements everyone uses against people claiming to teach Koga ninjutsu? I think it's quote a bit different, lol.

It's not like Hatsumi just showed up one day to his sensei's jujutsu dojo with a pair of sai after being gone for a week and told his classmates that he was a ninja.

It's not like he learned his ninjutsu from a secret ninja master in the jungles of Vietnam... :)

Takamatsu was a recognized master of other martial arts, and I'm sure Hatsumi had no reason to believe that his sensei had lied to him.

kimq
6th March 2003, 21:13
Originally posted by Ninja Kl0wn
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, aren't those some of the major arguements everyone uses against people claiming to teach Koga ninjutsu?

If I was worried about it, I would be taking a Koryu art. I'm not, so I'm not.

pete lohstroh
6th March 2003, 22:56
The answer could be as simple as this:
If a person is unsatisfied with the quality and/or quantity of historical information regarding the Bujinkan or its Soke, that person should leave to find something more suited to their particulars.

Mature people make these sorts of decisions all of the time. Because the decision is a personal one, they do it without disrupting the people who choose to stay.

El Guapo-san
6th March 2003, 23:06
Ooo oo oo, I read it on the Internet, so it must be true!

I've been to Japan, and I also take everything that most anyone tells me about anything with more than a grain of salt. Just because you tell me it's old, don't expect me to believe you. Let me check other sources.......and I have been, avidly. (OK, so I'm studying Japanese, but I speak more than a few other languages, and so far the info matches.) So far I haven't seen anything remotely resembling a scam about any of the Bujinkan. I've done forensic accounting, so I've seen a few scams. It passes my reality test.

Watching people's behavior, I also don't come up with anything either. Hatsumi seemed to me to be a nice guy the times I've met him. No ego trip there as far as I could see, or with any of the Japanese shihan I've met or any of the other shihan that I've come into some kind of contact with (which is several).

On the other hand, I did go to see about a local koryu (who shall remain nameless) here in Amsterdam, and never saw such a bunch of stuck-up wankers as them. I went to another club, and they weren't so bad, but it really wasn't my thing. I'm sure that there are more than enough koryu out there that are as yet untainted by the likes of my stinky hands (one of the Dakitana Ryu kata) to satisfy Baluja-san.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

OkudenDojo
6th March 2003, 23:20
I find it interesting to hear practitioners say, “don’t worry about it”… I’ve heard this for years… I’ve even said it a thousand times or more, but after a Anthony Robins video… (LOL)… I realized I don’t want to be a mediocre practitioner. I do not want settle for a 14th Dan when I know there is Menkyo. I know all of you have devoted heart, soul, sweat and money to learn this, what’s wrong with getting what we paid for. Do you agree?


Victor Rafael Acevedo de Lares
"Ju Yoku Go O Seisu"

shinbushi
6th March 2003, 23:26
From my experience living and training in Japan, (I also interpreted for Soke and Nagato Sensei) there are secrets. They are hidden in plain sight. Nagato Sensei and Soke always say they are horrible teaches, but everyone goes no no you guys are great. What they mean is that they don’t teach you anything, you have to seal it from them. I was never taught ANY kihon. I had to watch over and over to figure out how to do a good stomp kick, or Ganseki. They may give you clues along they way but usually as a last resort. Nagato Sensei once said, that if you spoon-feed someone, they will never amount to anything, to be a great martial artist you have to discover it for your self. When asked how about those who don’t get it, he said so what, not everyone is meant to get it.
Now I don’t teach that way here as the US is different and students expect me to teach.

Oni
6th March 2003, 23:40
Originally posted by OkudenDojo
I find it interesting to hear practitioners say, “don’t worry about it”… I’ve heard this for years… I’ve even said it a thousand times or more, but after a Anthony Robins video… (LOL)… I realized I don’t want to be a mediocre practitioner. I do not want settle for a 14th Dan when I know there is Menkyo. I know all of you have devoted heart, soul, sweat and money to learn this, what’s wrong with getting what we paid for. Do you agree?


Victor Rafael Acevedo de Lares
"Ju Yoku Go O Seisu"

What exactly does menkyo (or any type of ranking for that matter) have to do with what kind of practioner you are?? I pay (and sweat, and bleed, etc etc) to learn skills that will improve the quality of and increase the safety of my life, and the lives of my friends and family. No piece of paper will do that. Rank of any sort is an entertaining aside that is part of training. It creates interesting tests along the way for the individual to pass through...some of these tests are the obvious ones...but many are the hidden tests that only you will know if you have passed.

Are we getting taught in the same way as our teachers? I hope not actually. I hope they will have learned and grown and will have the ability to teach us from their own mistakes. We will of course make our own along the way, but if an art and its teaching methods do not change and grow it is dead.

Oni
6th March 2003, 23:43
Originally posted by shinbushi
From my experience living and training in Japan, (I also interpreted for Soke and Nagato Sensei) there are secrets. They are hidden in plain sight.

Heh...personally I think this is the case with all true secrets. Nothing really 'secret' about them, but without a proper base you will not understand even when 'spoon fed' so to speak. They can't even really be taught, they just sort of creep up on you eventually. I have done a lot of research and practice into other esoteric concepts (magicks, religions, etc) and have found this to be pretty much a constant throughout.

OkudenDojo
6th March 2003, 23:49
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eric Baluja
[B]Of course. Let me qualify:

1) As a student, you are not entitled to anything. You don't have the inalienable right to learn everything a teacher knows;[QUOTE]


Eric,

Do you truly believe that to be true? Would you send your child to a school that preaches this philosophy?


Victor Rafael Avedo de Lares

Oni
6th March 2003, 23:56
Originally posted by OkudenDojo
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eric Baluja
[B]Of course. Let me qualify:

1) As a student, you are not entitled to anything. You don't have the inalienable right to learn everything a teacher knows;[QUOTE]

Eric,

Do you truly believe that to be true? Would you send your child to a school that preaches this philosophy?

Victor Rafael Avedo de Lares

Heh,

Apparently you have not paid close attention to the state of our public schools today (or even really the state of our university systems).

As a student (particularly in martial arts) you choose your teacher as a person that decides what you will learn and when. Even when you take a University class you do NOT dictate the curriculum, how the instructor teaches, or even the amount of time you will be given on each thing. You cannot demand a degree of a higher caliber than that which you are working towards...even then certain degrees may remain unattainable if you do not present satisfactory work.

Why should martial arts be any different?

The fact is, your teacher (be it Soke or any other) will determine when and what you deserve/need. If you are not happy with your teachers decisions you always have the option of choosing another.

OkudenDojo
7th March 2003, 00:05
Originally posted by Oni


What exactly does menkyo (or any type of ranking for that matter) have to do with what kind of practioner you are?? I pay (and sweat, and bleed, etc etc) to learn skills that will improve the quality of and increase the safety of my life, and the lives of my friends and family. No piece of paper will do that. Rank of any sort is an entertaining aside that is part of training. It creates interesting tests along the way for the individual to pass through...some of these tests are the obvious ones...but many are the hidden tests that only you will know if you have passed.

Are we getting taught in the same way as our teachers? I hope not actually. I hope they will have learned and grown and will have the ability to teach us from their own mistakes. We will of course make our own along the way, but if an art and its teaching methods do not change and grow it is dead.


That’s an interesting thought… Would you be content mastering Kihon Happo or 101 Ura Gyaku Henkas knowing there is so much more. Knowing there is newaza, Gyaku waza, Atemi waza etc… I agree a cetificate that says 25th dan is probably worth less than than the paper it’s written on… I talking about challenging yourself. There is a road (Menkyo) but it’s closed to us…


Victor Rafael Acevedo de Lares

shinbushi
7th March 2003, 00:22
Originally posted by OkudenDojo
That’s an interesting thought… Would you be content mastering Kihon Happo or 101 Ura Gyaku Henkas knowing there is so much more.
Victor Rafael Acevedo de Lares

Rather than worrying about learning 101 Ura Gyakus how about learning one mastering the principals and mechanicss of it and being to create an infinate ammount of your own. It is better to be able to apply one wrist lock then collect(but be able to perform under pressure) 101

DWeidman
7th March 2003, 00:25
Originally posted by OkudenDojo
I think this deserves its own thread…..

Are we being scammed?

Victor Rafael Acevedo de Lares
“The truth is out there”

No, "we" aren't being scammed, but you are. I am getting exactly what I asked for.

Victor, if I were you, I would try to get all my money back from those sneaky bastards... Just let me know when you do so I can watch... er - support you.

Enough said?

*sighs* :rolleyes:

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

bencole
7th March 2003, 00:43
Originally posted by OkudenDojo
That’s an interesting thought… Would you be content mastering Kihon Happo or 101 Ura Gyaku Henkas knowing there is so much more.

If I trust my teacher completely as I trust Nagato-sensei and Soke, YES! Because there is obviously a reason WHY they are insisting that I learn a certain way! "Wax on, Wax off, Daniel-san." :D


There is a road (Menkyo) but it’s closed to us…

Not to my knowledge, it's not. Numerous foreign students have been privy to private trainings with Soke and the Shihan. I also know of more than one foreign student who has been given copies of the actual Densho! (And don't ask, because I am not going to tell you. :D You just need to trust me on this one.)

BTW, Eric Baluja's comments were RIGHT on the money, imo. You have no right to ANY teachings in Budo. The only reason a teacher should share a particular teaching with you is because you have EARNED THE RIGHT to learn it. It has nothing to do with the fact that you have paid money "as a paying customer." If you don't like it, then get another teacher. It's that simple.

If you came into my dojo with that attitude of entitlement, I'd show you the door in a second. I rarely say this, but with your attitude of entitlement, you may be served better with another art that can meet your myopic expectations.

I wish you luck.

-ben

Oni
7th March 2003, 01:47
Originally posted by OkudenDojo



That’s an interesting thought… Would you be content mastering Kihon Happo or 101 Ura Gyaku Henkas knowing there is so much more. Knowing there is newaza, Gyaku waza, Atemi waza etc… I agree a cetificate that says 25th dan is probably worth less than than the paper it’s written on… I talking about challenging yourself. There is a road (Menkyo) but it’s closed to us…


Victor Rafael Acevedo de Lares

Victor,

I am not sure who you have been training with...but I know for one I have been given a whole lot more than kihon happo. I find it safe to say in my years of training I have been given more than enough to work on and have been in no way dissatisfied...if anything it has been overwhelming at times.

I do wish to add (agree with Shinbushi) the fact that if you have 'mastered' the kihon happo you already have more than enough henkas to keep you set for life. I am not sure I know of too many folks that have achieved this 'mastery'.

Don Roley
7th March 2003, 06:35
Victor,
I find this interesting. You use the term "we" as part of your title and address the matter of japanese teachers. You ask if we are being scammed and seem to be hinting that maybe we should be looking at orginizations other than ones run by the Japanese in Japan.

And yet, when I looked through your past posts, I found that you are a student of an art started by an American based on the east coast. You are also active in trying to sell your teacher's videos.

So what is all the "we" business and why should we not treat you like an agenda troll?


Do you think Japanese Instructors are teaching you that same way as they were taught?

Well the if you look at the way the Japanese shihan trained 30 years ago it would look very different from what you see today. But have you ever even tried to consider the different circumstances?

30 years ago a large class of Hatsumi's could have been counted on the fingers of two hands. All those guys on the mat would be students who trained on a weekly basis for several years under Hatsumi.

Compare this with the situation I met with the last time I was at Ayase last month. The place was wall to wall Spainards. Many had never been to Japan before or trained in close proximinty to Hatsumi. By now, a few weeks later, I am sure they are all home again.

Did it ever occur to you that there are things that you can do in the first circumstance that are impossible in the second?


Are they purposely hiding their techniques or teaching incorrectly?

Not in what I see through years of experience in Japan. Teaching incorrectly on purpose? What kind of paranoid conspiracy theorist are you? The differences I see in the way people are taught deals with the fact that you just can not teach a large gaggle of people you only will be with for a short time the same way you can a small group of long term students whose capabilities and weak points are known to you. I see this in Nagase dojo. Nagase holds nothing back from students who can learn what he has to teach, but he is not willing to let the group practice any easily abused stuff until he knows there are no idiots who will try to crank it on and injure their training partner.

He also does not bother talking about things like religion with people who are not even sure of what Shinto is. The more you know coming into class, the more he can build on that base. But to try to teach physics to a person who can't do basic matth is folly. The same goes for Taijutsu.

And with the long term students he can make drills that strengthen areas he knows we are weak in. Some of us have cronic problems that are only recognizable as more than temporary flukes after a while in close proximity. So if there is no one but resident students, we are more likely to do stuff he knows we need to drill in on us. He also is more able to come around and demonstrate on all of us, and stand over us in turn and correct what we do with the liberal use of his foot in our rear.

Now how in hell is Hatsumi supposed to do that in the Ayase situation I described?

Also, when there is only the long term resident students the training can get a bit more..... intense. There have been times when I was in fear for my life in training. One guy admited on line that after watching a Nagase class he vowed never to train with us for fear of injury. But I have never been sent to the hospital in Nagase's class. As much as he pushes back our limits, he does not shatter them and us. I have to give 100 percent to get out of the situations he sets up, but he knows from years of teaching me what 100 percent I am capable of and he goes no farther.

Again, how is Hatsumi supposed to do that with 80 peple in the country for 3 weeks?

If you want to train under an American and his system, feel free. But don't try to pass yourself off as one of us who train with the Japanese. You strike me as a troll who is trying to get others to join you, not an honest seeker of knowldege with your questions.

ChrisMoon
7th March 2003, 07:45
I hope that my question from before did not start this one. I really apologize if it did.

Bradenn
7th March 2003, 11:04
Are there secrets we are not being shown?

I think so, yes. Believe me I have struggled with these doubts for ages and ages so I can understand where you are coming from.

The way that I have started to look at it is to make an analogy with my university studies. This helps me avoid driving myself crazy.

There is a lot of academic material that can be taught by professors this is what you spend you Bachelors degree on. Similarly you can be taught some things in martial arts. Maybe shodan is similar to Bachelors degree.

But when it comes to doing a PhD this is something that can't be taught. It's not that the university professor (or Hatsumi-sensei) doesn't want to teach it. He can't. You need to learn.

I spent about 4 years doing a PhD. I learned an incredible amount, and I believe I know some scientific "secrets".

How much did my thesis supervisor actually teach me in those 4 years? Nothing. Jack. Zip.

But yet without him I wouldn't have got the degree and I wouldn't have made those secrets my own.

I think back to this experience whenever I start to wonder if we are being scammed. Hope this helps you too.

jchetty
7th March 2003, 12:14
After class a while back one of our instructors asked us to suggest ideas for our classes. The most common suggestion, by far, was to have a class just doing repetitions of the kihon happo.

Most of us felt we were getting too much to cope with - the exact opposite of being scammed.

I still haven't seen anyone, of any rank, that can pull of ganseki nage against someone who doesn't want to be thrown. Until I feel confident that I can pull it of myself why should I aspire to anything more?

Jairaj Chetty

Tamdhu
7th March 2003, 23:23
I have enough trouble with the enormous wealth of material and instruction I've already been given to worry too much about the 'secrets' I'm not getting.

I could be shown every high-level 'secret' there is. Chances are I could only nod and say "Wow! That's neat! Now, can you help me with my ganseki? I keep losing it here...(blah blah blah)."

The only real secret is 'keep going'.

Hatsumi is not in the business of helping you or anyone else earn a living or recognition. If you don't see value in what he offers, then move along and invest your time and money elsewhere.

I can assure you no salesman will call...