PDA

View Full Version : Ganseki-nage?



yama-nagare
7th March 2003, 16:12
Greetings all,

I have a question regarding Ganseki-nage. I think it's an awesome move. Besides the warriors from hundreds of years ago, Has anybody ever used it in a real combat situation? I have used it against Judoka in randori and found it very effective. But I am interested in hearing your comments concerning it being used in the real world against attackers....

Kevin Geaslin
7th March 2003, 16:50
I have always had trouble with Ganseki nage, as most of the folks in our dojo are taller than me or outweigh me. However, I have found that Ganseki otoshi works very well if you cannot get kuzushi, or if the uke steps across as the throw is happening.

icynorth
7th March 2003, 19:36
I very much agree. I like Ganseki Otoshi much better, it comes and seems to flow much more naturally, also variations are easier to come by in this move IMO

pugilist
7th March 2003, 19:57
Could someone describe ganseki otoshi, I'm sure I've seen it before but I'm not too good at the japanese terms. Thank you.

DWeidman
7th March 2003, 20:03
Originally posted by icynorth
I very much agree. I like Ganseki Otoshi much better, it comes and seems to flow much more naturally, also variations are easier to come by in this move IMO

That is because Ganseki Otoshi is not nearly as subtle... (hence, easier).

I have found that if the entry to Ganseki Nage isn't set up right for the throw - it is hard to get the Otoshi to work well either - as both of them *should* require the same kuzushi and position. Being a larger movement, however, hides that a lot.

My .02

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

shinbushi
7th March 2003, 20:38
I have not used it in real life but in sparring, if you get an under hook it is realitivly easy to get off. In real life I have only gotten off Hon Gyaku and a tackle.

The Tengu
7th March 2003, 21:33
Here's an old thread about ganseki nage, for those interested.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=13802

icynorth
8th March 2003, 01:08
I agree Mr Weidman. The Otoshi is a lot easier. I guess being the height of a smurf I have grown to liek it more LOL. Though very correct if the correct leg movement and arm direction are used the move itself just turns into a difficult ground takedown. In our group it seems to be the one that gets most screwed up in that batch of movements, it "looks" like it should be one of the easiest though.

tenchijin2
8th March 2003, 01:21
Hmm. I've found gansekinage to be relatively easy and consistent in randori. It's really good (like onikudaki) for situations where you're in close and then use the creation of distance to set up the throw. No way to explain this verbally, I think.

Dan's point, icynorth, was that the reason otoshi was 'easier' is that it doesn't require as much skill... knowing Dan, it was a sneaky way to say 'practice your nage more'. In my visits to various parts of the country, ganseki nage has been consistently (along with ichimonjinokata) the most 'fingernails on the chalkboard' technique overall. People almost always ask for advice on it. I think that once it's shown properly (I'm gonna take heat for that!) people have a much easier time with it.

icynorth
8th March 2003, 01:38
Pardon my post there LOL. I saw his point there and he's right. I also needed to retype mine. I of course meant that if you didn't use the correct taijutsu and arm movement the move would just become a had takedown. This is one move that looks like it needs to just be taught when really it needs to be learned, if that makes any sense. I tend to re read my post much past editing time LOL

cc_ninja
10th March 2003, 04:35
Ganseki Nage, in my most humble opinion, is the #2 most combat effective "Nage" toped only by Tomoe Nage. However, while Tomoe Nage takes years to perfect for combat use, Ganseki Nage doesn't.
I have used both effectively against Judo black belts and BJJ practitioners.

Two things to remember with Ganseki Nage:
#1 Do not prop your shoulder back behind your body to thow someone. You can easily end up in Mushadori by doing this.

#2 Watch for the reversal setup. If uke dives between you legs, release the arm and drop you knees onto his head. This should stop him from ever trying it again.

Also if your finding it easier to do Ganseki Otoshi rather than Ganseki Nage something is wrong - try walking your opponent until his balance teeters. Generaly an Otoshi (Reaping leg) is used in tight spaces and can be done quicker, but your Nage (toss) should be more powerful.

Just my thoughts,

Richard Elizondo
admin@wanyunloong.com

icynorth
10th March 2003, 05:29
I suppose experinces with different moves vary. But I'll continue to analyze this one. Personally I find Tomoe Nage one of the easier ones to accomplish.

So we are all on the same page, cause I may have been taught differently or misunderstood. Can someone do a breakdown on Ganseki Otoshi.

Gary Liddington
10th March 2003, 08:12
From kumiuchi, whack that boshi ken into uko.. Usually lets you do whatever you want after that.. :)

Regards,

Gary

Onmitsu
10th March 2003, 08:38
Way back in the 90's a young hispanic kid came to class and was wide-eyed as could be. The next time he came he brought quite an entourage which included his father (I thought it was gang initiation night). During the middle of the class the father stopped our instructor and asked if any of the stuff that he had been showing would work against a boxer. My then sensei invited the father to try to hit him using conventional boxing. I thought this guy was going to take sensei's head off. He was really blasting him for all he was worth. Our sensei avoided the ensueing barrage of punches until the father over committed himself. At that time our sensei did a text book ganseki nage. The father seemed to step right into it. The problem was we didn't have mats then. Just a tile floor. When the father landed he broke his expensive looking watch.(oops!) It's funny but he bounded back from the floor and after shaking the birdies from his head, he was all smiles. It turns out that Dad was a former golden gloves boxer and wanted to make sure that junior was getting the best training. For a while that hispanic kid showed up like sunday church.:)

Rokushakubo
10th March 2003, 09:42
Originally posted by Kevin Geaslin
I have always had trouble with Ganseki nage, as most of the folks in our dojo are taller than me or outweigh me. However, I have found that Ganseki otoshi works very well if you cannot get kuzushi, or if the uke steps across as the throw is happening.

I used to have a lot of trouble with ganseki nage but for the opposite reason - I'm too tall! The way we do it effectively gives the advantage to the smaller person.

Also, pretty much everyone outweighs me! From what I gather about training, this is not supposed to make much difference if you're doing it right. (However, I still don't see how a 9.5st person such as myself could through an 18st person who's probably got more strength in his arm than I have in my entire body!!!

Kinjo
13th March 2003, 07:20
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cc_ninja

"#2 Watch for the reversal setup. If uke dives between you legs, release the arm and drop you knees onto his head. This should stop him from ever trying it again."

LOL, this reminds me of this exact situation. A new student joined our dojo and began training under the impression that he was a 3rd kyu. So after warm ups we began our training as normal and immediatly discoverd that this new student was there to proove something. Every technique became more difficult. His attacks violent ect... After being frustrated for over an hour, we began working on Ganseki Nage, I moved in for the throw, he tried to dive through my leggs. I released his arm and feel straight down catching him half way through, we never saw him again. He's probably still trying to catch his breath. HEHE.

Lee Mc'pherson
13th March 2003, 11:29
Gareth don't forget to hit your opponent or uke (not hard or anything, a slight slap should do it) that way he untenses his muscles and can be thrown, that applies to all tecniques really. It takes away the weight factor (but not the height if his short you should really try Ganseki Ori) ;)

Rokushakubo
13th March 2003, 12:28
Thanks for the tip. I'll see if I can put it into practice tonight!

:)

Gary Liddington
13th March 2003, 13:20
Remember Boshi-Ken to the side of the neck.. lovely.

regards,

Gary

Lee Mc'pherson
13th March 2003, 14:07
Anytime Gareth thats what it's all about.

Nice one Gary:D

How about boshi-ken in the shoulder joint when breaking opponents kuzushi from lapel-elbow standoff hold (The hold from which most kata are taught) ;)

Rokushakubo
13th March 2003, 14:08
We've experimented with various ways of getting into a position to do ganseki-nage over the past couple of months. The best one I could come up with was (from a sleeve grab) stepping straight in towards uke with either a strike to the throat with shuki-ken, or to simply turn uke's head to the opposite side to which you are attempting to apply ganseki (this either stops him attacking with his other hand or at least severely weakens the attack).

Gary Liddington
13th March 2003, 16:32
If you're in kumi-uchi (the judo style hold).. Take a small step back with the left leg, pulling on the Uke's right arm/sleeve. At the same time drive boshi into the uke's neck (left side) with right hand then slide right hand under uke's arm for ganseki. You can also ganseki with the left arm from here.

Probably just stating what you already know... :)

Regards,

Gary

BigJon
13th March 2003, 16:48
Has anyone seen the 1990 Daikomyosai (Ninpo Taijutsu)? Hatsumi Soke uses Hicho to escape Ganseki nage! Very cool! The pin that is used at the end of the technique is very painful looking! One can tell how painful, by the huge smiles on the uke's faces...great stuff. I think that Soke does this to Jack Hoban in this case.



Jon Gillespie

Lee Mc'pherson
13th March 2003, 16:56
Probably just stating what you already know...

Yep know that one, and you know I bet we learned it the same way
the painfull way that is hehe:D

Garth
22nd March 2003, 17:39
In reply to this post on Ganseki Nage. This is how i have been taught to do the technique.
I will assume that on is going to throw with the right arm.
Enter to do Ganseki Nage with the right hand having been looped under the opponents left arm. If one is doing Ganseki Gyaku that is with the arm straight one can keep the right arm pointing to the ceiling, however if ukes arm is bent then bend your arm so that the hand is pointing down. This will stop your opponent escaping.
Next one performs the throw. At this point I have noticed many students bend their backs. DO NOT BEND YOUR BACK. Keep it straight.
Now let your left left leg move back in an anti clockwise direction so your hips are now twisted. Now bring your hips to aline with your legs so that your opponent is projected outwards. Do not worry if the throw does not look nice because your opponent did not roll. this is not the point. The point is to hurt your opponent, so let him land awkwardly. This if nothing else will stop his ukemi getting boring(See other post).
A point here. I see so many people bending their backs or trying to get their right hand to touch their left toe. In many cases this is not Ganseki Nage but Koshi Nage.

tenchijin2
23rd March 2003, 01:15
Originally posted by Garth

A point here. I see so many people bending their backs or trying to get their right hand to touch their left toe. In many cases this is not Ganseki Nage but Koshi Nage.

And a really bad koshi nage at that!

Look, there are a lot of ways to do ganseki. Bottom line is, few people that I've seen can actually control the balance and direction of the uke properly to allow the throw to occur. Most just rely on a hard twist or push with the arm, which often only causes the uke to scamper across the room or roll if he's compliant.

The other big mistake I see (which seems fine in training but falls apart when the guy wants to hurt you) is that people will often loop the arm around and raise it up... all the while leaving space between the uke's arm and your head. You WILL get smacked in the head or face doing this, or if you're lucky simply have the uke's arm inexplicably fly over your own head. You must bring your BODY into position with uke's arm, not vice versa.

michaelCODY
25th March 2003, 14:45
I've seen Ganseki Nage in action twice in my life outside of training. The first, when I was 12 years old chasing a girl I liked during recess and she got tired of the chase, stopped dead in her tracks and stuck her fist out and held it there as I continued running towards her, got freaked out by the fist just floating there and did my first unwilling saumersault to avoid it. For my exceptional ukemi, I was rewarded by her and her friends pounding me with dodge-balls.

Second time was when I was moving into my house just recently and one of my friends decides to chase my dog around the house. After turning the corner suddenly, he sees a number of us hauling a couch a few inches from his face. He did the most amazing waza I have ever seen to avoid being both smashed in the face and then buying me a new couch. Neat huh?

studious_ninja
27th March 2003, 01:01
That doesn't sound like Ganseki-nage to me...

syd sked

tenchijin2
27th March 2003, 01:16
I think that's kukinage...

michaelCODY
27th March 2003, 20:02
Doh!

DWeidman
28th March 2003, 21:50
Originally posted by Gary Liddington
If you're in kumi-uchi (the judo style hold).. Take a small step back with the left leg, pulling on the Uke's right arm/sleeve. At the same time drive boshi into the uke's neck (left side) with right hand then slide right hand under uke's arm for ganseki. You can also ganseki with the left arm from here.

Probably just stating what you already know... :)

Regards,

Gary

Just a quick question -

If you are in Kumi-Uchi - the opponents left hand should be on your right elbow. Why would anyone who has your right elbow let you jab them in the neck with your right hand? Speaking in pure bio-mechanics - his tricep / lat combo is much stronger than your bicep / deltoid combo.


Originally posted by Lee Mc'pherson
Gareth don't forget to hit your opponent or uke (not hard or anything, a slight slap should do it) that way he untenses his muscles and can be thrown, that applies to all tecniques really.

For what it is worth - I turn the uke's head on entry away from me - but I don't do it to untense his muscles. I prefer a tensed uke for Ganseki Nage - as his tension allows me complete control of his entire body from his shoulder joint alone. Ganseki is more difficult to pull off on a person who relaxes completely and "flows" with you and the lock.

Just observations on compliant Ukes and dojo syndrome....

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

Lee Mc'pherson
29th March 2003, 00:39
The slight slap I was talking about translates into a fudo, boshi or anything really on the street and is just a training method for teaching that tecniques do not stand alone but rather are a part of the whole so to say. It helps a lot in the kata training.

John Anderson
29th March 2003, 12:11
Originally posted by DWeidman

If you are in Kumi-Uchi - the opponents left hand should be on your right elbow. Why would anyone who has your right elbow let you jab them in the neck with your right hand? Speaking in pure bio-mechanics - his tricep / lat combo is much stronger than your bicep / deltoid combo.


Ever done Seion from the Kukishin Ryu?

Rich
1st April 2003, 11:43
No, John, please explain as you have peaked my curiousity.

Cheers

rich

The Tengu
1st April 2003, 17:45
Originally posted by Rich
No, John, please explain as you have peaked my curiousity.

Cheers

rich Rich,

It's a Kukishin kata that uses boshiken.

Ask your instructor to show it to you sometime.

Gary Liddington
3rd April 2003, 14:50
"Just a quick question -

If you are in Kumi-Uchi - the opponents left hand should be on your right elbow. Why would anyone who has your right elbow let you jab them in the neck with your right hand? Speaking in pure bio-mechanics - his tricep / lat combo is much stronger than your bicep / deltoid combo. "

Hi Daniel,

I never seem to have trouble with sticking the boshiken in, especially with a step out/back with the left foot to begin with to off -balance. As I have hold of the uke's lapel in my right hand, the boshiken can either go up into the neck (good angle for ST9 kyusho-fans) or directly in and under the collarbone.

Hope this answers your question?

Regards,

Gary

Rich
5th April 2003, 11:47
Hatsumi uses the boshiken from that position in many waza. Maybe it wont work against everyone but then the resistance would allow you to flow into an appropriate counter hopefully. (Just as a note: wouldnt it be his tricep and chest versus the same on yours- ignoring of course that you would be using combinations of kuzushi, distraction, and other taijutsu findamentals anyway?)

It seems to me that sometimes we expect every technique to work, or discount it, rather than seeing it as part of the dance as a whole. As an example I have someone who the fundamental omote gyaku doesnt work on- they have a grip of iron and their arm doesnt straighten with my body movement at the beginning. Now that could be either poor taijutsu or just life as it really is- the fact I can work omote gyaku with most people in kihon happo would hopefully suggest the latter! I can vary it and get it through henka, which is sensible and obvious- in a real situation there'd probably be a strike first to effect arm straightening and kuzushi.

Regards to all

Rich