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Jay Vail
8th March 2003, 13:27
Darren,

I read your post about the sad death of the rugby player at the hands of a street punk with great interest, as well as a number of your posts on the website http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/edged_weapon.htm

I always pay close attention when a police or corrections officer talks about self defense, because they typically have been there at the sharp end and have a far finer sense of what works and what doesn’t than many martial artists. Your comments are very informative and useful.

I have a clarifying question. You said that a defender should not try to grab the knife hand, although you should try to control the knife arm. This advice seems to be consistent with that propounded by Hoch Hockheim and Payten (sp?) Quinn, that the defender’s initial response/objective to a knife attack should be to grasp the knife arm, preferably at the forearm with one or both hands.

Can you tell me if you agree with this approach, and if not, why not, and what you would recommend instead?

Thanks in advance.

JV

Darren Laur
8th March 2003, 20:16
Jay:

Thank you for the question. When it comes to protecting yourself against a knife attack, I would recommend the following:

· Your “initial response” should be to RUN if able to do so

· If you cannot RUN, then I advocate and teach controlling the delivery system that is controlling the knife (the arm), in a dynamic attack. The “goal” here is to control the arm above the ELBOW initially with both hands. You stated in your posting, that others teach to control the forearm. This is “LESS” desirable due to the fact that this will NOT allow one to fully control the delivery system. This is especially true if blood is present. Blood has about the same viscosity as baby oil and will make the forearm, wrist, and hand extremely hard to control and keep hold of. Here at the school to replicate this fact, I will baby oil my student’s arms from shoulder to hand to emphasize this reality. If however you control above the elbow, the delivery system is much easier to control (using the Pat, Wrap, and Attack method) due to the fact that you are controlling the lever thus preventing multiple hits, which based upon my research article you read, is the main cause of edged or pointed weapon deaths.


I hope this helps to clarify your question


Strength and Honor

Darren Laur

Jay Vail
8th March 2003, 22:30
Darren, thanks for your response.

I have another question that just occurred to me. You mentioned that the majority of knife attacks occurred using the downward icepick stab. This seems to be a significant point. Can you say in what percentage of attacks the downward icepick is the grip used? Also, I'd be interested in knowing what data you are relying on to make this conclusion.

Thanks again for the informative posts.

Darren Laur
8th March 2003, 23:22
Jay:

You asked:

“I have another question that just occurred to me. You mentioned that the majority of knife attacks occurred using the downward icepick stab.”


What I stated in my research article was:


“The most popular assault technique utilized by the attacker was found to be the hammer strike – either straight down or diagonally”


When it comes to protecting yourself against an edged weapon assault, who cares how the attacker is holding or attacking you with the knife. The principals of self-protection against an attack must be the same no matter if it is an ice pick type of an attack, or a gutting, or even slashing attack. Principals stay the same, diverse in application!!!!!!


The research for my article was based upon edged weapon attacks on both police and civilians here in Canada and the United Kingdom where edged weapons are the weapon of choice.



Strength and Honor

Darren Laur

acooper
9th March 2003, 00:47
Pat,trap and attack? Can you explain the pat and trap part?

Darren Laur
9th March 2003, 01:09
Pat, Wrap, Attack:


Pat: (strike,perry, block) the delivery system while moving your body

Wrap: Secure the delivery system while penetrating and dominating your attacker

Attack: Immediately engage the attacker with a compound attack


To explain this process in written form is difficult at best to do


Strength and Honor

Darren Laur

acooper
12th March 2003, 04:05
Thanks Darren.

Sochin
12th March 2003, 15:31
While I'm not necessarily the fan of "wrapping" that Darren is, I also have never faced the 'real knife threats / attacks ' that he has either.

But I have been exposed to FMA, JKD, and aiki jutsu style trapping (and Peyton Quinn's methods) and Darren's pat, wrap and attack contains more concise answers to the presenting problems of relieability and ability tobe performed under stress.

Get a look at it if you can...

DaveB
12th March 2003, 17:57
I've been exposed to few methods over the years and consider myself lucky to learn self defense from the "legendary" Peter Marro.:)

Pete teaches 1. pat, check, attack. 2. deflect, attack. 3.grab and cut or grab/attack break for knife threats (among other things)

Dave Boylan