PDA

View Full Version : always firearms disagreement



poryu
7th March 2003, 07:53
Hi

I just dont understand this obsession with firearms in the Bujinkan dojos.

I have some gun training in the USA, and I just could not find the obsession with it. I also could not fid the need for it in a Martial arts dojo.

But to answer the question.

if one of my students produced a Pistol etc in my dojo. I would ask him to show it to me. I would then call the police and have him arrested.

Unless you are an art studying Hojutsu/Teppo then I say go to a range to learn to shoot, or a qualified instructor who can show you gun removal technqiues.

It saddens me to hear of instructors teaching firearms techniques in a dojo. I know many americans are going to a flame me, insult me, ridicule me, and m aybe even try and send me a virus. I dont care. I stand by what I say.

Less guns in our life would result in less death by guns. After all a gun will not kill you unless in the hands of a human. I think a good example of the danger of gns is a USA Bujinkan instructor who shot himself in the leg while putting a pistol back in its box - Loaded and with the safety off.

I eagerly await your insults

poryu
7th March 2003, 08:18
Hi Ray

and I just got someone from the USA on AIM who I have nevver heard form agreeing with my post

I am shocked at there comments . I need a doctor.

what next - handing drugs out in the dojo

Johnie
7th March 2003, 10:00
Unfortunately I feel that your comment about handing out drugs in a Dojo is really very poor taste for a friendly forum, and quite insulting. Opinion is good, judgement is not.

The reality is that guns are an important part of the American way of life, a right they fought and died for. Preparedness is good for all situations, you cannot hide you head in the sand and say that will never happen to me. What if it does? Do we know how to deal with it? Do we know how to survive it? lets face it Ninjutsu is an art of survival.

I fervently hope none of us experience a gun attack, but then I also hope I never have to face a knife attack but train with them regularly. Know what you face and prepare for it.

Johnie

poryu
7th March 2003, 10:06
Hi

maybe you dont like the comment about drugs but

It has already happened in one USA Bujinkan Dojo, so the reality is there. Dont ask for details as All i know is the city and the I know it was dealt with by the authorities.

Ok if everyone has the right to bear arms in the USA, I would like to ask this then

All instructors who teach firearms in the dojo.

1. How would you feel if one of your students shot someone usiung the skills you taught them with a gun in your dojo and killed someone. While using that gun it was not in self defense but in the act of a crime.

2. Would you still justify the right to teach guns in your dojo and would you still teach it.

Kamiyama
7th March 2003, 11:06
**I just dont understand this obsession with firearms in the Bujinkan dojos.

Mr. Paul, I could understand your position better if I never had any birthrights. Explain to me Mr. Paul how it feels to be in a country where you don’t have your birthrights to defend yourself or to have tools to defend yourself or have tools like firearms to defend yourself. People who have NOT given up this birthright to peaceful happiness to defend themselves against attackers might not understand your point of view here in the USA Bujinkan Dojo.

**Less guns in our life would result in less death by guns.

Mr. Paul, this can be said about TV, swimming pools, cars, airbags in cars, seat belts, doctors, airplanes, etc.

**Mr. Paul You asked,
**1. How would you feel if one of your students shot someone usiung the skills you taught them with a gun in your dojo and killed someone. While using that gun it was not in self defense but in the act of a crime.

Kamiyama, I’m not responsible for others actions. I leave that to the government to watch over us..LOL.
This can be asked about those sharp katana, hard rokushakubo, flying shuriken and pointed shuko we have in the Bujinkan Dojo as well.
Of course any taking of life or any act of crime would be a sad. Regardless if it was with a firearm or not.
I believe you should be able to answer this yourself from your own experience with your government. Explain, how does it feel to have your own government take your rights away and comment crimes against your family, friends and loved ones in the UK?
I encourage EVERY student over 21 years of age here in Texas to get a firearm, get a CHL (concealed handgun license) and study them till they are masters of the tool just the same as I would with these sharp katana, hard rokushakubo, flying shuriken and pointed shuko.

**2. Would you still justify the right to teach guns in your dojo and would you still teach it.

Kamiyama, why of course.
The same can be said about a driver’s education teacher too. They train others how to drive a car and then they go out and kill someone. Or a SCUBA instructor. They train you how to dive and you go out and kill YOURSELF.
These are not crimes but the same point can be made. Well not to forget archery too.

This was not a political question about firearms. It was directed towards free thinkers and those who feel free to train others in self-protection drills with a firearm.
If you do not like firearms or feel they are useless or have fears about them. I can understand.
But this is the same problem the martial art community is having with the other tools of self-protection too.
The government is trying to rid EVERYONE of their freethinking and methods of self-protection.

Back to the question shall we..?

Kamiyama, ralph severe

Neil Richardson
7th March 2003, 11:17
Hi folks,

*** WARNING - The following is a long post. I've gone into detail to show that I have experience in firearms so as to back up my reply to the original post by Ralph ***

I have handled firearms ever since I was 8 years old when my grandmother bought me a hand gun (much to the horror of my mother). My father taught me to shoot this on my Uncle's farm and I also got a shotgun shortly thereafter. I have been around firearms for my entire life, as I'd often see my father cleaning his shotgun as a young child, long before my grandmothers gift.

As a teenager, I joined a firing range and learned to shoot in a competition environment. Several years later, the UK experienced a couple of tragedies involving firearms (one was in Dumblane). Everyone was fearful that the government would have a knee-jerk reaction and ban firearms altogether. Those that didn't use firearms said the government wouldn't do that sort of thing, but six months later they were banned. As a result of this legislation, the only people that use a firearm in the UK today are the military/police and criminals.

I continued my firearms training in the military, when I joined the Royal Marines Reserve. Firearms training was centred around the SA80 and we were taught to strip the weapon as fast as possible, clean it, and put it back together. We were also taught to speed load the magazine with individual rounds rather than with a speed loader. Astonishingly, we were also taught to shoot the weapon on the range and (with blank rounds) we also took part in exercises in the field where we learned the necessity of being able to clear a blockage or to increase the gas flow where necessary. Cleaning the weapon became an onerous task, and quickly lost its appeal.

Anyway, gun related crime in this country has increased considerably since firearms were officially banned. One consequence of this is the increase in the number of police patrolling our streets with firearms. Traditionally, the English Bobby would patrol with nothing more than a truncheon and some pepper spray, but more and more areas of the country are being patrolled by armed police and the number of armed response teams are increasing too (for example, armed patrols are occuring in the Meadows, which is an area in Nottingham).

Throughout my entire 'career' with firearms, I have NEVER seen a need for firearms in the dojo. The arts we study in the x-kans are traditional arts and do not have any kata pertaining to modern firearms.

If our instructors teach us properly, we learn about the kata of the ryu-ha and if we really have our wits about us, then we can use the lessons we learn from the ryu-ha in other, more modern settings. One example of this occured several years ago when I was playing Laser Quest. A young lad on the opposing team was pointing his weapon at my chest waiting for the starting siren to blow (so that he could 'kill' me as soon as possible). I applied ura gyaku to his extended arm and ended up pointing my weapon at the back of his head whilst maintaining the lock (he was pinned against a wall by the Ura Gyaku). This was a safe environment, firstly, because the starting siren hadn't gone off and secondly, they weren't real guns, however, it highlighted to me what can happen (I still don't know why I was pointing my weapon at his head though when I should have been pointing it at his back (where the sensors were)). Having said all that, I really don't know what I would do if it were a real situation, and I hope I never find out.

To get back to the point... there is no need for firearms to be taught in the dojo. If firearms are a part of your 'legal' culture then I'd suggest you take lessons and lots of practice on a local range but acknowledge that these are two distinct and individual interests (shooting and martial arts). Lessons learned in the dojo can be applied to firearms in the field, simply through muscle memory. If you train hard and make the technique your own, then it will be a part of you regardless. At hombu, Hatsumi-sensei often teaches techniques with firearm replicas (I know, I was there). I do not see this as teaching people to use firearms, but to show the flexibility of the technique in different circumstances. I think Hatsumi is saying, don't get stuck in the kata, use the lessons learned in the kata and apply them elsewhere.

If I were able to, would I carry a firearm as self-defence? Probably not and the reason is that a firearm only gives you one choice: to apply lethal force.

Would I use a firearm in my martial arts training? Never. If I know a kata well enough, it will be evident when I'm in the situation. There is no need to train with a firearm in the dojo if you learn the lessons from the kata.

Should firearms form part of the grading system? NO WAY! We are graded in taijutsu, not weapons arts. If you are going to use weapons as part of your grading syllabus (as we do in our dojo) then at least use the weapons of the ryu-ha (my personal favourites are the sword, rokushakubo, and yari). There is no mention in any of the ryu-ha about firearms so, I believe that, someone should not be graded in a martial art for using something that has no relation to that art whatsoever. Would a Kenjutsu Ryu-ha grade someone for practising with a slingshot? I doubt it.

I believe that the ryu-ha we study in the x-kans is becoming diluted by many instructors out there. There are hundreds of kata to practice already, and there are many lessons to be learned from each of these kata. How many of those instructors that suggest using firearms in their martial arts syllabus know how to use a sword properly, let alone any of the lesser know weapons, such as Shuko or Kusarifundo? Until an instructor has mastered what is already in the ryu-ha then why is he wanting to add to the curricullum? The problem with the bujinkan (specifically) is that there is no common level for grades. I've even seen one 10th dan at a Taikai who didn't even know the basic kamae for a ryu-ha, when it was the theme of that year. He knew he'd be asked to demonstrate something simply due to his rank so why hadn't he done some basic study in that ryu-ha? Lets face it, one dojo's 2nd dan can be another dojo's 5th dan. Ahem, sorry for the rant.

To conclude, if you have the opportunity then practice with firearms at a local range and get expert tuition from someone who is certified to teach firearms. NEVER bring a firearm into the dojo. Keep your interests in firearms and martial arts separate, you have one body and you are training it in two fields, when you have started to pay attention to the lessons then your body will apply lessons learned in one area in another (like my Laser Quest experience).

Well, that's me done for another year of posting... I'm off back to the dojo to work on the ryu-ha kata and the Ten Ryuaku no Maki.

Bye for now,
Neil.

Bradenn
7th March 2003, 11:17
I agree wholeheartedly with Poryu that we need to stamp illegal guns with zero tolerance (think back to New Years eve here in Birmingham.

BUT I also think Kamiyama is 100% right that in the UK we have lost many of our birthrights and that the law and government actually favour criminals.

A friend of mine here was attacked in a pub. He fought back and reported the incident to the police. Both he and the assailant were arrested. Apparently it's normal here to arrest anyone who fights regardless if he is attacking or defending.

Martial arts weapons are banned here in the UK but kitchen knives, garden tools etc. are not. The kind of person who is deranged enough to murder with a katana would just as likely have done it with a butcher knife.

But the martial artist who has spent years of disciplined practice with shuriken, sword etc. is probably going to have built up the self-control not to ever use them on anyone.

Bradenn
7th March 2003, 11:39
Welcome to E-Budo.

That was an excellent post, but I fear that your point below is going to win you some insults.



Originally posted by Neil Richardson


The problem with the bujinkan (specifically) is that there is no common level for grades. I've even seen one 10th dan at a Taikai who didn't even know the basic kamae for a ryu-ha, when it was the theme of that year. He knew he'd be asked to demonstrate something simply due to his rank so why hadn't he done some basic study in that ryu-ha? Lets face it, one dojo's 2nd dan can be another dojo's 5th dan.

Johnie
7th March 2003, 11:56
Guys,

I have trained with firearms with Ralph. I have also had guns around me for a long time, even manage to hold a firearms certificate in Northern Ireland. So have have been comfortable with them for a long time, shotguns and rifles only though, no pistolas.

My point, I enjoy the training with firearms specifically the drills. Most have a qualified firearms instructor in attendance. I am now more comfortable with being in a situation where the weapon of choice of a possible opponent is a gun, lets face it it is the criminals first choice EVERYWHERE. As I said earlier I train, among other reasons, to survive.

I have also learned more about gun safety than in all my years at hunts and clay pidgeon shoots. I also had fun.

This is off the wall, but is firearms not listed by Hatsumi in his book Ninjutsu History and Traditions? I am learning this art because of its openness to new ideas and freedom of style. I like the way it is taught and the thinking behind it. We should embrace every opportunity to make us better martial artists and better prepared.

Now I must apologise for not answering Ralph's questions directly and expounding my opinions. But this is a great discussion, different opinions are always good.

Johnie Young

m harper
7th March 2003, 13:17
but is firearms not listed by Hatsumi in his book Ninjutsu History and Traditions?

Have you not seen Hatsumi book on knife and pistol.

I have been training since 1982 and have trained with Steve, Bud, Jack, Brin, Ralph.... and all of them have taught rifle and pistol disarms and weapon retention. The Boss has at Tai kai and ninja festivals.
Many of my students are in or later joined the military or police departments. Teaching Rifle and pistol has helped them in their jobs.

If their are guns where you live you must learn about them or you will not be prepared when faced with one.

Mark Harper
Bujinkan Houston Dojo

Ka1yama
7th March 2003, 13:47
I think Mark said it very well.

I would also like to point out, someone mentioned stripping/disarming a gun. I do not beleive this is what Mr.Ralph was refering to. None of us live in the matrix so stripping a gun is remote, but still to be familiarized with. Instead of just disarming, firearms training consists of how to make the weapon safe, how to stroe the weapon, how to load the weapon if you hear someone kick down your front door, how to move with the weapon, crawling, CQC etc. not just disarming someone.

Neil Stewart

poryu
7th March 2003, 15:52
Shikoyama

I am glad also that i dont live in london.

Maybe you dont understand why i would have the stduent arrested.

Because it is illegal in the Uk to carry a gun in public. Thats why.

saviolo
7th March 2003, 20:08
"I could understand your position better if I never had any birthrights. Explain to me Mr. Paul how it feels to be in a country where you don’t have your birthrights to defend yourself or to have tools to defend yourself or have tools like firearms to defend yourself."

The British DO have a birthright of defending ourselves - just ask the French and the Germans (no offence Herrs and Monsiuers, we're all Europeans now!). It's just that we would rather have a trained, professional army do this than allow everyone to have a gun on his wall. If that's the choice of citizens in the USA, then that's fine. However, we don't have anything like as many murders per 1000 of population, and we don't have the same trouble you do with the militia movement...

"People who have NOT given up this birthright to peaceful happiness to defend themselves against attackers might not understand your point of view here in the USA Bujinkan Dojo."

And again, they might. Being a martial artist does not automatically make you a member of the NRA.

And for the record - In England, we have the legal right to use 'reasonable force' in our defense. The intention is not to prevent people fighting back, just to ensure that they don't react out of all proprtion to the threat. Sometimes this seems to mean that the person defending themselves ends up getting prosecuted for it, but in most cases the system works quite well. Almost all the high profile cases of people getting arrested for 'self defense' prove more complex in reality, like the farmer who shot a child in the back with a shotgun, or the OAP who fired a rifle blindly through a door at someone stealing from his shed.

Regards,

Sebastian Phillips

caleqs
7th March 2003, 20:39
Originally posted by saviolo
The British DO have a birthright of defending ourselves - just ask the French and the Germans (no offence Herrs and Monsiuers, we're all Europeans now!). It's just that we would rather have a trained, professional army do this than allow everyone to have a gun on his wall. If that's the choice of citizens in the USA, then that's fine. However, we don't have anything like as many murders per 1000 of population, and we don't have the same trouble you do with the militia movement...


There's a difference between defending yourself and having someone else do it for you. You're not talking about the same thing. There's always a need for an armed force to protect the sovereignty of a nation. That's the professional army. We're talking about *your* right to protect yourself and your property. Who does that when the police and the army aren't around? Who? How?

Its also interesting to note that while your murder rate vs. the US is lower, the number of people you have in jail per 100k exceeds that of the US.

Not saying there isn't a link between murders and guns, but its a lot more complicated than that. Even so, why would the murder rate go down in states where handguns have been made legal with a permit and go up in states where handguns are being outlawed? Why? One issue may be the drug problem. Its not all about guns.

And what problem do we have with the militia movement? And what militia movement are you talking about? Something you've seen on the news or read in the paper, or something you've experienced personally?

clayton
7th March 2003, 20:44
BOTTOM LINE:

1.guns are a reality, period. this cannot be disputed

2.hatsumi trains with them

DWeidman
7th March 2003, 21:55
Originally posted by poryu
Because it is illegal in the Uk to carry a gun in public. Thats why.

ARRGH!! OK. It is more than I can take... I will throw my .02 in.

Paul - what would you do if a student brought in a REPLICA gun? Surely that isn't illegal in the UK. Would you teach him then?


Originally posted by poryu
Unless you are an art studying Hojutsu/Teppo then I say go to a range to learn to shoot, or a qualified instructor who can show you gun removal technqiues.

Going to the range to learn how to shoot is one thing - but my guess is that we in the Bujinkan are probably among some of the best in the world at dealing with gun removal techniques. Or are you limited Paul to not being able to see past your nose (or sword)?


Originally posted by poryu
It saddens me to hear of instructors teaching firearms techniques in a dojo.

It saddens me to think that you deprive your students of this knowledge. I wonder how you can sleep at night knowing that someday one of your students may meet a criminal with a gun - and die because YOU didn't teach him the basics of the weapon? And what of his girlfriend / wife / daughter who is held down and raped because he is dead? Being a warrior means you stand in the way and PROTECT those who are unable to protect themselves - which means your training affects more than yourself. Eh?

Your knee jerk reaction against guns sickens me. ESPECIALLY since you claim to already have some experience with them. PATHETIC.


Originally posted by poryu
Less guns in our life would result in less death by guns. After all a gun will not kill you unless in the hands of a human. I think a good example of the danger of gns is a USA Bujinkan instructor who shot himself in the leg while putting a pistol back in its box - Loaded and with the safety off.

And your point is? Shall I recount the number of people that have cut their ears off practicing sword draws - or broken their legs kicking in class, or cut their hands and fingers while drawing a sword, or being struck with a broken rokuskaku bo? Your point is meaningless.

A real point to this is that you can only control YOUR life. Saying something stupid like, "less guns in our life would result in less death by guns" only proves that fact. You have no control over OUR lives - only your own. If you have traveled (and it seems you have to the US at least once) - then you have been in a situation where OUR life had some weapons around. Just remember to close your eyes when you think you may see a gun (if I can't see it - it doesn't exist, right?). That has equal validity in your scenario.


Originally posted by Neil Richardson
As a result of this legislation, the only people that use a firearm in the UK today are the military/police and criminals.

OMG - if that isn't a testament as to why you SHOULD train with firearms - I have NO idea what is. Did you read that? You admit that CRIMINALS use firearms. When you train in a martial art, do you train to defend yourself (and your family) from the accountant in HR - or do you train to defend your life (and your family's life) against CRIMINALS? I can see not owning a gun yourself. Fine. But ignoring defense against them is almost unpardonable! PLEASE! I want you to remember that your Martial Arts skills affect more than just you! The innocent people who are victimized after you are dead also should weigh heavy on your conscious!

Enough. I am glad I NEVER train around people like you Paul.

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

Bradenn
8th March 2003, 01:43
Originally posted by DWeidman


Your knee jerk reaction against guns sickens me. ESPECIALLY since you claim to already have some experience with them. PATHETIC.

(snip)

Enough. I am glad I NEVER train around people like you Paul.

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo


Regardless of whether or not you disagree with with Paul, I think this is disrespectful to someone who is a Bujinkan shidoshi and regarded as one of the UK's most knowledgable teachers.

DWeidman
8th March 2003, 03:08
Originally posted by Bradenn

Regardless of whether or not you disagree with with Paul, I think this is disrespectful to someone who is a Bujinkan shidoshi and regarded as one of the UK's most knowledgable teachers.

Puh-Leeeze! So I take you I won't be getting your vote for the nicest, most Politically Correct Ninja award?

Sorry, he knew it was coming ("I eagerly await your insults"). When you post a huge pile of dog crap - someone in the room is going to mention that it smells funny.

"...Uk's most knowledgable teachers"... OUCH!

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

PS - His Shidoshi licence and $3.50 will buy him a latte over here. It is meaningless in and of itself. Respect is something you EARN - not something passed to you because of rank. There is NOTHING in his post that comes close to earning him my respect. Got it?

poryu
8th March 2003, 09:56
Hi

---Quote - Paul - what would you do if a student brought in a REPLICA gun? Surely that isn't illegal in the UK. Would you teach him then? ----

What would I do. I would say put your toy back in your bag please.
I think I have made it quite clear already that we don’t do guns in my dojo so why ask what I would do with a toy.

---Going to the range to learn how to shoot is one thing - but my guess is that we in the Bujinkan are probably among some of the best in the world at dealing with gun removal techniques. Or are you limited Paul to not being able to see past your nose (or sword)?---

Why do I need to learn gun removal techniques. I have no experience in gun disarming so I wont even attempt to teach it. Not unlike many other Bujinkan instructors who will attempt that without prior training. If your asking am I limited in disarming guns then yes I am, but why do I need to learn it. am I limited in the ats that i wish and chose to study - no i am not in fact I think I am above average in my skill. I have only ever seen police and army with guns in the open in the UK and the USA. I saw some on racks in people homes in the USA. I think you need to look past your nose and look at the UK gun culture. You opbviously havent a clue at all about our country. It’s a known fact that over 50% of illegal guns in the UK are illegally imported from the USA. Your gun culture and your gun crimes are affecting our life style. There is nothing your police or ours can really do to stop it, only try and prevent it. If I want to learn how to disarm someone with a pistol I will ask a member of our armed forces.

----It saddens me to think that you deprive your students of this knowledge. I wonder how you can sleep at night knowing that someday one of your students may meet a criminal with a gun - and die because YOU didn't teach him the basics of the weapon? And what of his girlfriend / wife / daughter who is held down and raped because he is dead? Being a warrior means you stand in the way and PROTECT those who are unable to protect themselves - which means your training affects more than yourself. Eh? -----

I don’t deprive my students of anything. They learn what I have studying in the Bujinkan. We don’t have a gun problem like you and we don’t need to learn gun disarming. They come to me to learn a Japanese Koryu not how to imitate an American with a interest in carrying a gun in the street. So how am I depriving them – please explain. If they want to learn how to be a cowboy or a USA Mobstester I will give them your name.

How do I sleep at night – quite well thanks knowing that I have taught them Bujinkan Taijutsu and not American Taijutsu with a pistol. If one of my students meets a criminal with a gun I will be most surprised. You obviously haven’t a clue about our crime or culture. This doesnt surprise me. When I lived in the USA for several months many I met thought the UK was attached to Germany at the side of Poland.

-----And what of his girlfriend / wife / daughter who is held down and raped because he is dead? Being a warrior means you stand in the way and PROTECT those who are unable to protect themselves - which means your training affects more than yourself. Eh-----

This is such a pathetic comment. How can any of us know this will happen or even maybe stop it. If one of my students was present if a female this close to me was raped I would want to know why he was there and I was not. Do they sell crystal balls with guns now. If so can I have one please I need to see the future to know if I need to start playing with guns.

----Your knee jerk reaction against guns sickens me. ESPECIALLY since you claim to already have some experience with them. PATHETIC.----

It is my experience that is why I am not interested. I once studied aikido for 18 months and I no longer like. I used to eat porridge but I hate the stuff now. Just because I have shot a gun doesn’t mean I like them or that I want to be involved let alone teach them.

Before you preach to me about my country and why I should teach or own a gun – first get to know me then get to know why I am not interested. Then read our comments properly. If you want to teach guns in your dojo go ahead and do just that but do not force your issues on others.

As for never training around people like me that’s your choice – am I supposed to care if you attend my training sessions or not or are you making this comment because I don’t shoulder a pistol while doing Ganseki or is it because I have a mind of my own not to get involved with guns and you just don’t like my opinion.

If you want to teach/train with guns go ahead I wont stop you. But do not ever force your opinions on others.

By Chance are you a member of the NRA?????

poryu
8th March 2003, 10:00
Hi all

Because I have been insulted and ridiculed that my Taijutsu is obviously lacking because I dont teach firearms.

I wiould like to ask this question of everyone regardless of country - even instructors in the Uk that teach firearms

If we were to take a loaded pistol and put it to your head. Could you 100% guarantee to disarm any of us regardles of who it is holding the pistol, before you get shot.

Have any of you who teach these techniques actually tried it

I ask you can you do this – not in insult but as a genuine question,

poryu
8th March 2003, 13:17
Hi Ric

I do train with a shinken weekly in my sword class.

I have tried Muto dori against a iaito but even I know I am nowhere near good enough to do it against a shinken.

Even at full striking speed with a shinai I dont always get out of the way. I dont think there are any of us who can do it even 75% of the time.

I have said my bit about why i dont use guns and I have been put down for it. I will leave you gun lovers to chat amongst yourselves now.

Butsuyama
8th March 2003, 19:04
- If we were to take a loaded pistol and put it to your head. Could you 100% guarantee to disarm any of us regardles of who it is holding the pistol, before you get shot.


None of your training is guaranteed to make you come out on top 100% of the time. If it does you are indestructable.



- Even at full striking speed with a shinai I dont always get out of the way. I dont think there are any of us who can do it even 75% of the time.


Exactly, but you practice it don't you. If you want to be able to disarm a guy with a pistol to your head, you have to practice. Are you going to be able to disarm 100% of the time? No....but that one time you may need to use the tecnique could save your life.
Point is you should at least train your body so you know what it feels like to be in that type of stressful situation.

Dave Pawson
8th March 2003, 22:32
The real issue for us here in the UK is that guns are illegal. I am of the same opinion as Paul that if one of my students came in with a (live) firearm I would have him arrested as it is Illegal.

Personal view here, if firearms were legal here I'd be at the front of the queue, but they aren't.

I have used weapons both in ranges in the States and in the military here in the UK and you have to learn to have a healthy respect for them. However, in a country that has the laws we have it makes it almost impossible to drill to counter these tools, any Dojo in the UK advocating firearm defenses would in all likely hood get a visit from the local police force pretty quick.

In regard to swords actually no it's not illegal to own one, it is however illegal to walk down the street with one. So it is feasible that you could meet someone with a sword in the street just not that likely same as with a firearm.

Guy's don't turn this into an anti American / British deal, we have enough of the world trying to do that already.

Each country is unique and each Dojo is the same, we all teach what we believe to be relevent to the environment we live in which will benefit our students.

Sorry for the long post, going back to quiet mode.

Lee Mc'pherson
9th March 2003, 02:22
Just my opinion guys.

Anyone who wants to train as warrior in this day and age should train with firearms and be damn good with a gun either shooting it or disarming an opponent of one. Because you know we are all learning "MARTIAL" arts.

That said however I personally hate the things (guns that is) I really think that it can only be refferd to as a cowards weapon and i am against lax laws and gun control. More to the point since the time that guns first appeared real "men" have started to disappear anyone who has not even trained for a minute in his life but can simply point and pull sudenly gets drunk on the raw power a gun offers.

P.S.
I can and have used a firearm so i do know what i'm talking about it's just that i dont like the things ;)

John March
11th March 2003, 21:56
I'm glad the USA does not have gun laws like Great Britain. Not all people have the time, money, energy, or desire to train in Taijutsu. Handicapped people most likely cannot train in a martial art. Even those that do must devote years, even a lifetime, to master it.

However, one can become proficient with a firearm for most self-defense situations in a matter of weeks. Periodic practice can allow a 100 lb. woman to successfully defend herself against 2 200 lb. men. Is a good outcome guaranteed? Of course not. Nothing in life is. However, ALL people have a right to defend themselves and if criminals were to attack you, they're are not going to do it one-on-one and fight "fair".

I do know one thing for sure. There is never a cop around when you need one the most and avoidance does not always work. If the worst happens you need to be able defend yourself. For the elderly and the handicapped a firearm is the best bet.

Yeah, I'm an NRA member.

Lee Mc'pherson
11th March 2003, 22:40
Good point Mr. March I never thought about it like that. I am still against guns in general but I can now appreciate youre point of view.

How does this idea sound : Licences being given out only after required training and a passing of some kind of test? Something like a drivers licence!
And strict regulation of all firearms isued so that the goverment knows who has what ( that should deter a lot of illegal activities)

What do you think?

John March
11th March 2003, 23:37
Mr. Mc'Phereson:

Your idea certainly is not a bad one. Most U.S. states allow citizens to carry firearms on their person if they pass minimum criteria. These citizens must be licensed, in some cases register their weapons, and have passed some sort of proficiency exam. In some cases they must pass annual exams. The requirements for merely owning, but not carrying, a firearm in the U.S. are usually much less stringent.

One point I must make is that locales with the strictest gun control laws usually have the most crime.

Regards,

shinbushi
11th March 2003, 23:58
Lee Mc'pherson just wanted to say Ti kanis (My wife is Greek)

gozanryu
12th March 2003, 00:31
Hey guys, just a little pint o' thought. In WW2, when the British special forces were in there infancy, one of THE MOST important skill sets was PROFICIENCY WITH ALL WEAPONS, yours, your enemies, and any potential enemies. This training is still in effect. The way I see it, training with firearms in the Dojo is a realistic, valuable resource and asset. Most likely more realistic in the world today than Shinken training (yea, I know many sword skills cross over to other weapons blah, blah ) If your training to be a warrior, or for self defense, it is valuable to train in EVERY possible outcome and situation you can conjer.



"you Boys gonna' pull them pistols, or whistle "Dixie"?" - Josie Wales

Lee Mc'pherson
12th March 2003, 07:48
Shinbushi Poli kala efxaristo :D

I don't think anybody who trains in the warrior arts can in his right mind disregard firearm training. On the other hand firearm training can not be done only in the dojo and not only with replicas so it is impossible to really train with firearms in countrys that prohibit them.

Kamiyama
12th March 2003, 07:59
It is a real sad day when the people of a country cannot train for self-perservation with firearms in THEIR own land...

What is this world coming to..

How can you as warriors let this happen to you?

kamiyama, ralph severe

Lee Mc'pherson
12th March 2003, 08:56
Alas from history you see that there are only a few good warriors and far too many bad poloticians......................

So the duty and honor of protecting those that can not protect themselves becomes the burden of those few good warriors.

ALWAYS
STRENGTH AND HONOR

REI BUDOKA

william northcote
12th March 2003, 09:10
For all the non americans on here that have posted and wonder WTF we in the UK do not train in firearms, for one reason: Our brains like to remain in our heads.

I think Paul Richardson does have a valid point, the firearm is not part of budo. It does however mean training with black powder I.E Ohzutsu, Sodezetsu and Tanegashima, not modern pistols. Since modern powder was invented by Nobel, a more powerful and therefor making the projectile travel futher, it is not traditional.

I may guess, and Mr. Richardson may say yes or no to this bit, the only offensive weapons training we could do in the UK is with Yumi and Ya (bow and arrows) as these are still considered dangerous but law abiding. Even the sword is restricted, but it cannot be banned as it is a traditional weapon.

Lee Mc'pherson
12th March 2003, 10:23
Mr. Northcote if you wish to train because you wish to keep to tradition then your point of view is most understandble, however for those who train to be "warriors" then firearms should also be on there curiculum the problem with this is the strict gun control many nations have which by the way is fine by me. Was it not Soke Hatsumi who said that tradition should help us grow and not chain us to set ways.

If modern day firearms were available in japan in that era do you not think that every MA would incorporate them?

DWeidman
12th March 2003, 10:36
Originally posted by poryu

Why do I need to learn gun removal techniques. I have no experience in gun disarming so I wont even attempt to teach it. Not unlike many other Bujinkan instructors who will attempt that without prior training. If your asking am I limited in disarming guns then yes I am, but why do I need to learn it. am I limited in the ats that i wish and chose to study - no i am not in fact I think I am above average in my skill. I have only ever seen police and army with guns in the open in the UK and the USA. I saw some on racks in people homes in the USA. I think you need to look past your nose and look at the UK gun culture. You opbviously havent a clue at all about our country. It’s a known fact that over 50% of illegal guns in the UK are illegally imported from the USA. Your gun culture and your gun crimes are affecting our life style. There is nothing your police or ours can really do to stop it, only try and prevent it. If I want to learn how to disarm someone with a pistol I will ask a member of our armed forces.


Here we go...

Paul - You have never seen a gun disarm technique performed in the Bujinkan? That is amazing... congrats. You have never been to a Brin Morgan seminar (I hear he is rather fond of them... :rolleyes: )? I do have a clue about your country based on direct 1 on 1 conversations with a British student of mine. That, and the "facts" you keep pointing out. You claim that 50% of illegal guns are imported from the USA. Are you going to stop that from happening? Perhaps if you close your eyes and repeat, "bad gun, bad gun - go back to the USA" the illegal import will stop. You CAN'T stop it from happening, can you? Welcome to something the rest of us call "REALITY".


Originally posted by poryu

I don’t deprive my students of anything. They learn what I have studying in the Bujinkan. We don’t have a gun problem like you and we don’t need to learn gun disarming. They come to me to learn a Japanese Koryu not how to imitate an American with a interest in carrying a gun in the street. So how am I depriving them – please explain. If they want to learn how to be a cowboy or a USA Mobstester I will give them your name.


Oh really? Seems to me there are several people here who claim that Hatsumi teaches with guns occasionally. Are you calling all of us LIARS? This means that you are teaching them what you WANT to teach them... not what is taught in the Bujinkan.

Your students ask you to teach them a Japanese Koryu? Wow! And you think you can do this - without having gone to Japan (sorry to bring it up again, but it is directly associated to your comment). Since when did the Bujinkan classify itself as a Koryu art?

Here is a comment from Ben Cole in another thread Re: Bujinkan as a Koryu Art:

"(As an aside, a “Koryu art” is not a “Kuden art”, and vice versa. Each method of transmission is distinct, and so it is only natural that a Kuden art would not fulfill the "standards" of a Koryu art. This should not be a concern for anyone within a Kuden art, in case that was another one of your concerns caused by the Koryu articles you’ve read.)"
- http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=17709

Where, in my reply to you Paul, do you see me advocating CARRYING a gun in the street? Please show me. Yeah, thought so...


Originally posted by poryu
How do I sleep at night – quite well thanks knowing that I have taught them Bujinkan Taijutsu and not American Taijutsu with a pistol. If one of my students meets a criminal with a gun I will be most surprised. You obviously haven’t a clue about our crime or culture. This doesnt surprise me. When I lived in the USA for several months many I met thought the UK was attached to Germany at the side of Poland.


Hm... where to begin. Bujinkan Taijutsu has pistols in it. Please see the numerous examples all over the pages of this conversation. It has NOTHING to do with American Taijutsu. In fact, one of the more outspoken Bujinkan Judan+ (Brin Morgan) is constantly showing gun techniques. Paul, what country is Brin from?

Don't worry Paul - you won't be the only one surprised. I am sure your student will be surprised to. And I am sure he will be glad you stuck to your Japanese Koryu teaching and purposely left out guns.

I happen to know where the UK is. Your point is? I know a couple of retarded Brits as well. Shall I point out their stupidity to prove ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?

How about this tidbit. I took all of two seconds to check out Google and came up with this "fact" (I didn't take the time to independantly verify it - so take it at face value (source cited below):


"The shocking 35% increase in gun offences masks a more optimistic picture for England with the overall crime rate levelling off in the last 12 months after five years of continuous falls, according to both sets of official data published yesterday. Gun crime at 9,900 offences forms less than 0.3% of the overall crime rate."
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,871861,00.html

Seems to me there are almost 10 THOUSAND people in "your" country who have seen a gun used in a CRIME. Don't let the numbers bother you though, Paul. Keep on being "surprised". And by all means TEACH them that SURPRISED look so they can do it well if they are unlucky enough to be one of those 10,000.


Originally posted by poryu
This is such a pathetic comment. How can any of us know this will happen or even maybe stop it. If one of my students was present if a female this close to me was raped I would want to know why he was there and I was not.


Read my comment again. It didn't say YOUR girlfriend, wife, or daughter - it said, "...his girlfriend / wife / daughter who is held down and raped because he is dead?" The point still stands that you teach your students to protect not only themselves, but their FAMILIES too. Just adding some extra responsibility that some people don't think about when they teach a combat art.


Originally posted by poryu
Before you preach to me about my country and why I should teach or own a gun – first get to know me then get to know why I am not interested. Then read our comments properly. If you want to teach guns in your dojo go ahead and do just that but do not force your issues on others.

First off, I am not preaching to you about your country. Heaven knows you are the expert there. :rolleyes: Secondly, I have NO desire to get to know you. I take your comments at face value - just like they are written. If you have an individual slant on things, fine. Post away (I can't stop you anyway) - just don't be surprised when I point out the inadequacies in your statements. Lastly, I can not force my issues on others - only ridicule you for your pathetic comments. :-)


Originally posted by poryu
If you want to teach/train with guns go ahead I wont stop you. But do not ever force your opinions on others.


First off, you CAN'T stop me. Thanks for your meaningless approval.
Secondly, I can't force my opinions on others.


Originally posted by poryu
By Chance are you a member of the NRA?????


No. I am not. And I don't carry a gun around with me at all times. I do, however, teach what I have been shown to my students - in case they ever have to face one. Oddly enough, I only teach Gun DISARMS. Think about that for awhile.

Finally I close with this:


Originally posted by poryu
Because I have been insulted and ridiculed that my Taijutsu is obviously lacking because I dont teach firearms.


Insulted and Ridiculed? Probably. It can't be a surprise though - you knew it was coming. However, I don't believe I ever said or alluded to YOUR taijutsu being lacking. You could be the next Bruce Lee as far as I know. Whatever. You are being ridiculed and insulted because of your MYOPIC viewpoints and subsequent actions (or lack of actions). It is what you proudly claim to NOT teach that gets you here. I could care less if you never saw a gun or if you wet your pants each time you did see one. I don't care if you sleep and shower with a loaded weapon. You stood up to be counted as one of the guys who doesn't teach modern weapons - and guess what, you succeeded. Congratulations, you are a myopic idiot (my opinion, of course) - and someone I wouldn't want to train with. I am sure you are losing sleep over my opinion.

At any rate, this thread has already taken up more time than it is worth.

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

PS. Something occured to me as I was about to post this. I wonder if you, Paul, will tell your students to check out this thread in your next class. I wonder if they know about your feelings in this matter? Hm. For what it is worth, I will - as I stand by what I say.


Daniel...please note:

Profanity will not be tolerated.
Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect.

I understand you are hot about this issue, but please keep these guidelines in mind.

Thanks.

DWeidman
12th March 2003, 10:52
Originally posted by Will Northcote
For all the non americans on here that have posted and wonder WTF we in the UK do not train in firearms, for one reason: Our brains like to remain in our heads.

I think Paul Richardson does have a valid point, the firearm is not part of budo.

Two things:

1. Since when did training with a firearm equate to having your brains leave your head? Seems like a dumb statement to me.

2. Not true. What is the basic definition of Budo. Bu=war, Do=way. War way - or the way of war. I believe wars have a couple of guns in them now days.

What you meant to say was it isn't part of CLASSICAL budo. Fine.

Can someone show me where "Ten-Chi In-You no Kamae" is in the original Gyokko Ryu Scrolls? If I remember correctly, it is something that Soke added in 2001, correct? Does that mean we aren't learning things ONLY from the scrolls? *gasp*.

Enjoy.

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

Bradenn
12th March 2003, 11:07
Originally posted by DWeidman


Your students ask you to teach them a Japanese Koryu? Wow! And you think you can do this - without having gone to Japan (sorry to bring it up again, but it is directly associated to your comment). Since when did the Bujinkan classify itself as a Koryu art?



Who do you think wrote the book "History of the Schools of the Bujinkan"?

I think that book exhibits a lot more information and knowledge than most people who have been to Japan.

Lee Mc'pherson
12th March 2003, 11:36
Mr. Weidman a little friendly advice, I don't know if you have fired a firearm (if you have ignore my advice) but if you havent I would advice that you do so even if it's only once or twice, so that you can get an idea about how a gun reacts when fired, it will help a great deal with the disarming tecniques.

Please note that i refer to this because i have seen people teach gun disarms with no idea of the details that make the difference.
Example holding the gun close to your ear is not a good idea because if the gun goes off even if the bullet dosn't hit you the noise WILL shatter your eardrum (a lot of pain) and you will probably loose your hold.
This is only one example unfortunatly I have seen a lot of these "wrong" tecniques, these will certainly result in someones serious injury.

Train with care

DWeidman
12th March 2003, 11:54
Originally posted by Lee Mc'pherson
Mr. Weidman a little friendly advice, I don't know if you have fired a firearm (if you have ignore my advice) but if you havent I would advice that you do so even if it's only once or twice, so that you can get an idea about how a gun reacts when fired, it will help a great deal with the disarming tecniques.

Please note that i refer to this because i have seen people teach gun disarms with no idea of the details that make the difference.
Example holding the gun close to your ear is not a good idea because if the gun goes off even if the bullet dosn't hit you the noise WILL shatter your eardrum (a lot of pain) and you will probably loose your hold.
This is only one example unfortunatly I have seen a lot of these "wrong" tecniques, these will certainly result in someones serious injury.

Train with care

Lee -

I have fired a variety of weapons - from handguns, shotgus, and rifles. I am hardly an expert, but I have a functional understanding of how most firearms work. And I refer to others who have better understanding than I do to learn more about it. I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

Hope this helps.

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

DWeidman
12th March 2003, 12:00
Originally posted by Bradenn


Who do you think wrote the book "History of the Schools of the Bujinkan"?

I think that book exhibits a lot more information and knowledge than most people who have been to Japan.

Bradenn -

I am fully aware of his credentials.

It still doesn't answer my question, though, does it?

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

Lee Mc'pherson
12th March 2003, 12:09
Daniel I understand perfectly for the need to train with firearms and i'm glad to hear that people who train and teach gun tecniques have actually fired a weapon.

I just don't like them though, takes the fun out of a good fight ;)

Kreth
12th March 2003, 13:33
Originally posted by poryu
...in fact I think I am above average in my skill.
You're pretty humble if you do say so yourself, eh? :rolleyes:

Jeff

william northcote
12th March 2003, 14:59
So the Americans wish to keep thier little pieces of comfort metal to be big? Maybe.


2. Not true. What is the basic definition of Budo. Bu=war, Do=way. War way - or the way of war. I believe wars have a couple of guns in them now days.


The way of war? Does war have to be offensive? Is it really a part of modern budo to have a lump of metal in the off chance someone decides to enter your dojo wielding a semi automatic hell bent on taking out everyone? Unless it is nomeone that wishes to be killed, or has a grudge, then it is more remote that spitting in the hope that your phlegm may reach Bali.

Even though Budo means the way of war, it also has the reverse the same as the nin symbol. Budo= the way of war, nin= to stop combat. So is budo agression and the nin symbol pacifism, or are both reversed?

So to the people that have posted in this thread: What does the nin symbol mean to them? To stop combat or to create it?

By arming yourself do you not increase the risk of armed confrontation? Do you really wish to get into a firefight? Do you want your brains scattered over a large area when it ends? Or the attackers? Are you going to risk death or imprisonment by carrying one in the hope you may have to go gung ho and shoot it out? Or is it a sign of the "Buck dich" theory?

Or maybe the budo isn't up to scratch, that you need to supplement the training by being capable of disarming?

One thing you have to realise is that, if you are getting held at gunpoint, they won't come near. I would rather do a crime with a pistol where I can be safe and shoot you, not close up smelling your B.O and halatosis.

paolo_italy
12th March 2003, 16:09
One thing you have to realise is that, if you are getting held at gunpoint, they won't come near. I would rather do a crime with a pistol where I can be safe and shoot you, not close up smelling your B.O and halatosis.

Sorry, mate, it's not always this the way things go. There's no rule, I would say. Besides (not so) funny capabilities to disarm an attacker while held at gunpoint, being able to fully understand, render unusable or - in case of need - safely use a gun (mine or not) when my and my beloved's life is threatened, is much more than significant in order to learn the stuff.

A small provocation: what about the book "knife & pistol fighting"? Does't this testify its importance?

Being serious, in a world stabbed by wars, guerrillas, crimes, with signs that things will evolve to the worse, I want to be able to understand whatever I have the likelihood to face.

My 1 1/2 cents (euro's getting stronger LOL...).

DWeidman
15th March 2003, 09:03
Originally posted by Will Northcote
So the Americans wish to keep thier little pieces of comfort metal to be big? Maybe.


*Sighs* Hm. Irrelevant? Maybe? :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Will Northcote
The way of war? Does war have to be offensive? Is it really a part of modern budo to have a lump of metal in the off chance someone decides to enter your dojo wielding a semi automatic hell bent on taking out everyone? Unless it is nomeone that wishes to be killed, or has a grudge, then it is more remote that spitting in the hope that your phlegm may reach Bali.


Well, not to point out the obvious, but SOMEONE has to be offensive to have a war, right? Your example, Will, is ridiculous, and you know it. "Modern Budo - (ie. the Modern Way of War)" certainly has the "lump of metal" in it. I am not sure if you have noticed in England, but wars have "guns" in them. Not too many spears are carried around the battlefields nowadays... correct?
Secondly, since when is training IN the dojo a means to protect yourself from attacks IN the dojo. I suspect you train IN the dojo to protect yourself from attackers in real life (ie. OUTSIDE the dojo) - correct?
Criminals don't carry/use a gun wishing to be killed. In fact, it is just the opposite. Having a gun with them makes it much more unlikely they will be killed (or at least they feel like they are prepared to have the best odds of survival.)


Originally posted by Will Northcote
Even though Budo means the way of war, it also has the reverse the same as the nin symbol. Budo= the way of war, nin= to stop combat. So is budo agression and the nin symbol pacifism, or are both reversed?

What??? Where did you get that information? Perhaps some of the better Japanese speakers in here can confirm your statements. I have never heard of "nin= to stop combat". It simply means patience - or a blade over the heart. How you derive "PACIFISM" from "NIN" - or "AGRESSION" from "BUDO" is beyond me. Perhaps you can enlightnen us on that one? I would love to see ANY evidence that supports your claims.


Originally posted by Will Northcote
So to the people that have posted in this thread: What does the nin symbol mean to them? To stop combat or to create it?

Neither. It means patience.


Originally posted by Will Northcote
By arming yourself do you not increase the risk of armed confrontation?

Maybe. This is a very hard question to answer. Arming yourself with a shotgun and walking to the grocery store increases your chance of an armed confrontation. However, carrying a concealed weapon on your person does not directly increase your risks of armed confrontation, in my opinion.


Originally posted by Will Northcote
Do you really wish to get into a firefight?

No. However, I would rather be in a firefight then be a helpless shooting target (victim?) though, wouldn't you?


Originally posted by Will Northcote
Do you want your brains scattered over a large area when it ends? Or the attackers?

No. And No. However, if I had to choose between the two, I would *prefer* it to be his (or their) brains.


Originally posted by Will Northcote
Are you going to risk death or imprisonment by carrying one in the hope you may have to go gung ho and shoot it out? Or is it a sign of the "Buck dich" theory?

What??? This is such a load of crap. I don't think anyone who carrys a gun "hopes" to go shoot it out. Those that do are called CRIMINALS. Are you accusing all police officers of being criminals? All military personnel? Do you think they HOPE to shoot it out?

For what it is worth, not carrying a gun is *risking* death as well. I, for example, am willing to assume this "risk" as I do not carry a gun with me.

Imprisonment happens to anyone in the US who uses a gun without identifying a reason for use of lethal force. In England, you are arrested for simply *owning* one.

Did I ever advocate breaking the laws by carrying a weapon? In fact, show me where I even advocate CARRYING a gun at all?


Originally posted by Will Northcote
Or maybe the budo isn't up to scratch, that you need to supplement the training by being capable of disarming?


You are kidding right? I will make sure I pass that on to Hatsumi for you. He shows disarms. I am sure he will appreciate your comment that his "Budo isn't up to scratch." The "supplement" has been shown by Hatsumi directly. What art are you studying again?


Originally posted by Will Northcote
One thing you have to realise is that, if you are getting held at gunpoint, they won't come near. I would rather do a crime with a pistol where I can be safe and shoot you, not close up smelling your B.O and halatosis.

Sorry, but you are just plain WRONG here, and your statement is FALSE. They *MAY* not come near, but the FACT is that *some* crimes are committed with gun barrel against the victim. YOU CAN NOT DISPUTE THIS. It is FACT. Therefore, what you "would" or "wouldn't" do is, again, completely irrelevant.

Anything else you want to add? Do you have any response to this at all? I don't think I missed any of your so called *points*.

Waiting patiently...

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

Dave Pawson
15th March 2003, 20:39
Daniel I didn't see any mention that Will stated that Soke's Budo wasn't up to scratch, rather the intent was that the individual performing it might not be up to scratch, that is how I read it anyway.

Also you stated "I am not sure if you have noticed in England, but wars have "guns" in them." I'm surprised you even made that statement, please bear in mind we have had more experience in War that our American cousins. If your gonna come out with statements like this please bear in mind that the you have had limited success in war as a nation without the British being involved.

I may be wrong but by my estimates you won in Grenada without the Brits, you won the War of Independance, but the majority of you were Brits fighting the Brits so doesn't really count.:D

Rightly or wrongly we have laws in the UK in relation to Firearms, the issue that many of the instructors in the UK have is that techniques which are part of the teachings were based on Guns from the Samurai period and not against semi automatics. Instructors who teach information which they have not been correctly trained in are a liability where ever they may be, and what ever they teach.

We train in the Dojo against Sword etc, we know it will cut if it strikes, but I have seen some real stupid stuff taught when it comes to firearms, holding an automatic against the stomach and twisting out of the way expecting there to be no damage, this is why most in the UK get narked when firearms are discussed in relation to the Dojo

william northcote
15th March 2003, 21:45
HOw many people have had an empty pistol to thier head and been told to move away or disarm them before the trigger goes click?

Did anyone win?

Any answers to this question or any experiences they may wish to give. I would like to know.

DWeidman
15th March 2003, 22:37
Originally posted by Dave Pawson
Daniel I didn't see any mention that Will stated that Soke's Budo wasn't up to scratch, rather the intent was that the individual performing it might not be up to scratch, that is how I read it anyway.

Fair enough. I read it differently (ie. we are trying to add to the art with silly gun disarms.) After re-reading it, I still think he was saying that, and had forgotten that Soke does it and shows it all the time. It still reads like it is an "American" addition to the Bujinkan. At any rate...


Originally posted by Dave Pawson
Also you stated "I am not sure if you have noticed in England, but wars have "guns" in them." I'm surprised you even made that statement, please bear in mind we have had more experience in War that our American cousins. If your gonna come out with statements like this please bear in mind that the you have had limited success in war as a nation without the British being involved.

This comment was to Will (I should have been more specific, sorry) because of his stance on guns in pretense of Modern Budo. You are absolutely right about Britian's oustanding record in war, and I don't take any of it away from you.


Originally posted by Dave Pawson
Rightly or wrongly we have laws in the UK in relation to Firearms, the issue that many of the instructors in the UK have is that techniques which are part of the teachings were based on Guns from the Samurai period and not against semi automatics. Instructors who teach information which they have not been correctly trained in are a liability where ever they may be, and what ever they teach.

I do want to touch upon this. If I am not mistaken, Soke's budo has been changing and evolving for the past 20 years. Ask those that have been around for several years of Gyokko Ryu, for example, how much the art is changing - even on basics. Soke isn't teaching a static art. He introduces new ideas and new training weapons - and it is a legitimate part of Hatsumiden - AND the Bujinkan. He, and other people with specialized skills in firearms, are teaching and passing knowledge to the rest of us. I have been at more than one seminar that had someone from a special forces background teach parts of what they know so we (the students) are better prepared. Why is this some kind of slander to the *koryu* group (I am not saying you are part of that group Dave)?


Originally posted by Dave Pawson
We train in the Dojo against Sword etc, we know it will cut if it strikes, but I have seen some real stupid stuff taught when it comes to firearms, holding an automatic against the stomach and twisting out of the way expecting there to be no damage, this is why most in the UK get narked when firearms are discussed in relation to the Dojo

I *agree* with most of this. However, it is a poor argument against training with guns. I have seen Bujinkan instructors teaching Sword VERY poorly as well - but I don't get "narked" because I see it for what it is: Poor Instruction. This is NOT an excuse to blow off what Hatsumi is teaching - but rather a challenge to you to get better instruction.

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo.

DWeidman
15th March 2003, 22:50
Originally posted by Will Northcote
HOw many people have had an empty pistol to thier head and been told to move away or disarm them before the trigger goes click?

Did anyone win?

Any answers to this question or any experiences they may wish to give. I would like to know.

I have. I have also trained with semi-automatic airsoft guns (check them out at http://www.airsoft.com). The movement and the disarm worked well for the first couple of times - then the attacker adapted and would generally win.

I wish I could find the exact number on how long it takes the mind to identify your movement and send the signal to your finger to pull the trigger. If the gun doesn't move at all - I can almost always get out of the way because of that lapse. The adaptation most common by the attacker was to withdraw and shoot as he moved back (bringing his weapon back on target). Even that, however, was hard to do because of physical proximity and the defenders unwillingness to want to open up space between him and the attacker.

By the way - I have also done this from distance - and from about 5 yrds - it seems as though you are ALWAYS shot. However, it was interesting to note that most of the shots were not life theatening.

Anyway - have you done this as well?

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

Dave Pawson
16th March 2003, 08:59
Daniel you state "This is NOT an excuse to blow off what Hatsumi is teaching - but rather a challenge to you to get better instruction."

I did not say for one moment an excuse to blow of what Soke is teaching, as I stated the vast majority of people do not have the relevent skill, experience to be teaching this type of skill.

In relation to a challenge to get better instruction, at this moment of my training I am quite happy learnings form the likes of ,(in no particular order) Bud, Sven, Moti, Paul Richardson Dave Evans etc.
AS you will probably see most of the above are Judan and Im my lowly opinion some of the best we have in the West in their particular fields.

This year I will also be in Japan. I don't think to be honest we are that far apart in our thinking, from my perspective to keep the art alive we have to progress, i.e. using firearms etc. However as per the Densho I would rather look at a technique that has worked and study that rather than work of the basis which is what a number of people I've seen do which is "we'll this might work":rolleyes:

And I have been around this art for a couple of years, "19 years" so yep seen lots of changes.

Speak soon

william northcote
16th March 2003, 09:16
Anyway - have you done this as well?


Yep but not in the bijunkan or in my military training. We used air rifles. More realistic that a kids toy, and it has a real sense of reality to boot. Whether they were loaded or just the spring cocked back, it was for real and more dangerous.

The only injury I suffered was to my right eye when a pellet rebounded off a stick 10 feet away and struck me. And that was 7 years ago. I had a nice red blood spot on my eyeball for a few days, but I laughed it off.

But we do not train in this in the dojo that I attend. We can do, but it is not what I consider real bujinkan or taijutsu.

Dave Pawson
16th March 2003, 10:14
Will stated "We can do, but it is not what I consider real bujinkan or taijutsu."

Just from my own perspective, we could do this kind of training but the issue still comes down to I'm not qualified to teach it. I have been fortunate to train with some good guys from the military but I am not qualified to inpart any of that knowledge.

As an instructor there is a fine line between passing on information that will help your student in a given situation and passing on information that will just get him killed because he believes he is reading the situation correct.

I pray to God that none of us are ever in this kind of scenario in real life, but it is always a possibility. What I impart to my students is the following

1) Try not to be there in the first instance.
2) Run if you can
3) If you can't run give them what they want if it is your wallet etc.
4) If all else fails and the intent is to harm, wake up on the green side of the grass.

There could be a case made that based on what I said above on not being qualified to teach it that I should learn more on the subject, but I for myself trust in Soke's view that if the Tai-Jutsu is right everything else is an extension of the body. That is where my training is at the moment.

Miuki
16th March 2003, 12:18
Has anyone seen Mike Moore's new movie?

godstar
16th March 2003, 12:29
Originally posted by poryu
Hi Ray

and I just got someone from the USA on AIM who I have nevver heard form agreeing with my post

I am shocked at there comments . I need a doctor.

what next - handing drugs out in the dojo

Handing drugs out in the dojo is a great Idea...

I put it to you in two contexts...

One you are seeking enlightenment... shamanism is much older we think than warrior-priests we think? Especially in Brazil with the yage and cohoba...

Secondly most the fighters go to bars... Meth bars...

Intent changes physiology, so do drugs... So how do you know apply your techniques on a fully resisting oponent hopped up on meth who is intent on harming you???

Well its already happened... Because if you really train you go put yourself in real danger....

And its true you average bounce job on a methhead doesn't have the skills of ken shamrock, but ken shamrock isn't on speed and does have friends standing around waiting to crack bottles over your head...

So if you want to focus on what is then go out and get yourself mugged and raped, home invaded... Practice it as randori and figure out how to really train for this stuff...

So if you really want to learn how to fight realise what you are really going to have to do??? Fight teams of blackbelts in real life breaking into your homes raping your family, people running around like desperate animals killing in desperation limbs severed bleeding to death just looking to kill or rape someone before they die... I think Japan went through this during the warring states period... What is invincibility for? Third world police??

So ninja realise who you are actually training!!!

I've seen people use evil intent to try to find their car keys... And it doesn't work... But it doesn't stop them from trying???

What are you trying to do? People just want to be happy?

The next war will be nuclear? How are you going to use ninpo to stay out of major cities when third world scientists blow them up??

How can we prevent this from happening? Legalising heroin? Not worry? Stop being assholes?

And I'll laugh my ass off when some ishin ryu instructor launches a terrorist attack on a Gracie Juijitsu dojo' what should it be? A semi full of Gasoline? What would the most effective strategy for them to get respect? Cause their not going to win any UFC's so how are they going to win respect back in the my styles superio' battle...

Greg Howard... daito-ryu, ninpo, taichi, mma

Sillal
25th March 2003, 18:46
I almost hate to reply to as post that began as negative as this one, and seemed to almost pick a fight with anyone browsing.

I just wanted to comment on a few things posted here, but overall I find the tones hatefull.


I don’t deprive my students of anything. They learn what I have studying in the Bujinkan. We don’t have a gun problem like you and we don’t need to learn gun disarming. They come to me to learn a Japanese Koryu not how to imitate an American with a interest in carrying a gun in the street. So how am I depriving them – please explain. If they want to learn how to be a cowboy or a USA Mobstester I will give them your name.

Everyone has a gun problem, including countries where they are illegal. Heroine is illegal in the USA where I live, but that does not mean that someone who wants it can't pay a low life to sell it to them, the same can be said of guns in any country.

Not everyone has morals, not everyone has a respect for law and life and it is these people that those who train for self defense purposes must prepare for. Your personal utopian view of a gun, crime free country is as much of a fantasy as a Hobbit carrying a ring to a magical volcano... neither exist except in fiction.


This is such a pathetic comment. How can any of us know this will happen or even maybe stop it. If one of my students was present if a female this close to me was raped I would want to know why he was there and I was not. Do they sell crystal balls with guns now. If so can I have one please I need to see the future to know if I need to start playing with guns.

Honestly guns are not the only issue in this thread, but training philosophy. Its the nature of not having a crystal ball that I carry a firearm. A walk through the park with my wife might be relaxing and romantic, or it might be a blood bath where 8 thugs try to rob us and rape her. Now I can prepare for this eventuallity and have my Glock 23 with 2 extra high cap mags on hand to liquefy them with 40 cal hollow points, or be beaten half to death and be forced to watch my wife be raped....hrmm oddly its an easy decision.

Really this goes beyond guns though. AS you cannot ever know if you will be attacked, lacking this crystal ball you spoke of, then why train in a combative art at all? I mean, you live in such a peaceful country, so far away from any threats or violence why even need to learn to punch, kick, and grapple? Isn't assaulting people illegal in your country, which means by your logic that you would never be assaulted?


If we were to take a loaded pistol and put it to your head. Could you 100% guarantee to disarm any of us regardles of who it is holding the pistol, before you get shot.

I saw a 10th dan demo. a technique get socked in the jaw on accident So apparently after over 20 years of trainign you can't get out of the way of a punch 100% of the time. I still train to do so however.


Outside of all of this, just look at the history and nature of the training we do. From what I have read in Dr. Hatsumi's books the Ninja of old hardly followed the law of the land. In many instances they were as a whole outlaws, and concealed weapons by the dozens that was illegal for them to have. Not only weapons but in Ninjutsu History and Tradition there were many tools used to break into the castle or home of the ninja's enemies. Lets not ignore the fact that they also used acids, poisons, etc...

Just a thought.

Lance Boggs

poryu
26th March 2003, 08:10
HI Daniel

You ask if I have told my students about this thread.

Yea I did when it started and i know one of them has been checking it out fequently. the reason he has checked it is he is from South Africa and had to carry a pistol every day on his life when he left the home from fear of carry jacking etc. I have also discussed it face to face with Dave Pawson adn Will Nothcote.

My student from SA has suggested that there is no need in our Dojo to learn gun disarming. Another student is a gulf war veteran with his own dojo he just laughed when I told him about thi sthread he too suggested there was no need for us in my dojo or his to teach firearms or firearm disarming. Another student who did post in this thread is ann ex Royal Marine reserve - he too says there is no need in OUR dojo.

i have asked my students if they wish to do disarming they have all said no, there is no need.

So daniel please understadn this.

1. If you want to teach/train firearm disarming, I have never said dont and I wont say Dont
2. I only asked what is the obssession.
3. There is no need to insult me just because I am not interested in teaching it, and then also say I wont train with you because you dont do guns. That is silly.
4. I have trained with firearms on a range. I fired several guns over a 3 hour period. Glock, Sig Sauer, Beretta, Magnum 2inch barrel and 5 inch barrel, Pump and semin auto Shotguns, AR15, and a sniper rifle. Even after firing these guns which was great fun but ot somethig iwill do again. I It didnt move me to do guy disarming. iam personally not interested and neither are my students.

if you and your students are then thats fine keep going enjoy yourselves, but dont put people down just because they are not interested.

Should I say because your history knwoledge is no wehere near as good as mine I wont train with you, no I wont. if I attended your dojo and you was doing gun disarming I would just join in as that was the class.

I also have 2 more points to make here.

The moderator started this thread I did not and I was disgusted and seriously annoyed that my name was used as the starter of this thread without my permission. Oni do that again and I will make a formal complaint against you to John Lindsey. if you wish to move people threads around and start new ones put your name there dont use ours.

next Bradenn - stop using my name to boost your posts. We have never met and you are not even Bujinkan. I teach in Birmingham where you live and you have been invited but have turned down the chance to attend. Your comments have only furthered annoyed Daniel in a post he has strong feelings about. The book was done 10 years ago and I no longer have anything to do with it, I am not even interested in it any more. I can speak loud enough for myself without you annoying people without my permission.

Kamiyama
26th March 2003, 10:04
I feel in my opinion that pistol disarms are really foolish.
Unless you are a professional in bodyguard work then I can see no real reason to fake this skill.

Pistol disarms are very tricky and you must work very hard and be very careful with what you call 'true' skills in this area.

And this goes for an instructor teaching this skill to others.

I do not tell students or anyone else that disarms are worth the trouble but I tell them it's a bad game to play.

The disarms with rifle and shotgun up close are a little different.

I have them and train them because it is my personal responsibility to myself to be able to use them with great skill as a human being and as a guide of living skills. Not everyone feels the same way.
This post and the others are clear to this fact.

I would like to say to everyone here..
this subject has been run to the ground and I feel it's about time to end it here.
Firearms are both wonderful and very bad.
It depends on your point of view and who is pointing it at who.

We have wonderful people over in the sand trying to bring peace to our world. Why should we fight here amoung ourselves?

If you feel strongly about this then make a tape.. put it on the web site and let everyone see your point of view.. ok..

photo is a reminder from my girlfriend..keep your finger off the trigger..next to your bum..

kamiyama, ralph severe

poryu
26th March 2003, 10:11
Good points Ralph

I think this thread has also run its course and is causing people to fall out with each other when they dont need to.

Maybe our wonderful moderator will close this thread now

shinbushi
26th March 2003, 16:57
Originally posted by Miuki
Has anyone seen Mike Moore's new movie?
Read BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE: Documentary or Fiction? (http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html)
For a new prospective on this "Documentary " :mad:

Oni
26th March 2003, 17:48
Originally posted by poryu
The moderator started this thread I did not and I was disgusted and seriously annoyed that my name was used as the starter of this thread without my permission. Oni do that again and I will make a formal complaint against you to John Lindsey. if you wish to move people threads around and start new ones put your name there dont use ours.



Hey Paul,

Chill out. This is the first you have said anything to me...I am always open to feedback. Our PM system works great. Want to complain to John about me go ahead...I doubt you will get much in response. You chose to jump into a thread in a disruptive manner...in fact in your initial thread you said something along the lines of "I am sure I will get flamed for this" thereby setting up an expectation.

Most of this thread has been pretty pointless. The fact you choose to not teach anything related to guns is your choice and yours alone. I think the main reason so many were bothered by your statements is that you seemed to insinutate that by doing gun work people were adding their own obsession to Bujinkan training...when this is simply not the case. Unless of course you are also accusing Hatsumi sensei of adding guns to the Bujinkan as an obsession. There is even gun work done in his most recent video, "What is martial arts?"

I split this out because it seemed folks wanted to discuss it, but it was interferring with Ralphs original question in my opinion. It put your name as the thread starter because that is the way the software works. Yours was the first post in that particular chain, so it defaulted to you. Nothing personal. Nothing else I could have done short of just deleting your post...then of course I would have been accused of censorship :p