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Kamiyama
7th March 2003, 04:39
I know many of you feel ninjutsu doesn't have firearms such as rifle, shotgun and pistol.
But those who do feel they are part of the juhachimon..cool.

I would like to hear about your training with firearms for self-prefection and self-preservation in your dojo.

Like,
Are they important to your training?
Are they important to your students training?
Are they useful as a tool in your life?
Are they useful as self-protection in your life?
Are you drilling them as much as you do other tools from the juhachimon?
Do you feel firearm weaponry retention is important?
Do you drill firearm weaponry retention in your dojo?
How regular do you fire them at a range or shooting place?
Are the firearms part of your ranking outline?

Just pondering where we are as students of 'real times'..?

kamiyama, ralph severe

Ka1yama
7th March 2003, 04:59
I have a Mossberg 12-guage shotgun. I keep it for home/family defense. I bought it after someone tried to beat my apartment door in, twice!!!! Since the experience I have learned that firearms are valuable tools that I need to be familiar with. Even people who do not like guns/do not own them, should at least be familiar with the capabilities of the weapons they may encounter. As far as training goes, I feel learneing how to function the weapon is the most important training needed.

Neil Stewart

Kamiyama
7th March 2003, 10:32
Vey good posted Mr. Paul.

I felt it would be fair to answer my own questions,

Are they important to your training? yes, very important, wouldn't be martial arts if I didn't train with these tools.

Are they important to your students training? yes, I have to be 100% honest with them about 'real' training for life.

Are they useful as a tool in your life? yes, would feel free or relaxed without them.

Are they useful as self-protection in your life? totally.

Are you drilling them as much as you do other tools from the juhachimon? yes. Ninjutsu wouldn't be ninjutsu without them.

Do you feel firearm weaponry retention is important? yes. You have to balance out the training with striking-shooting, grappling, and controlling the tools of martial arts.

Do you drill firearm weaponry retention in your dojo? yes.

How regular do you fire them at a range or shooting place? once a week with pistol and once a month with rifle.

Are the firearms part of your ranking outline? yes. Of course or it would be modern martial arts training. It would be outdated.

kamiyama, ralph severe

caleqs
7th March 2003, 12:57
Figures people would have to make this into a debate about firearms...give it a rest people...answer the questions...no one really cares whether you agree with the 2nd amendment, you have nothing new to add to the debate, so why bother speaking?...especially those with no idea what the 2nd amendment truly means, or have no idea what it means to be an American...

Heh, donít know why I bother, no oneís going to listen. Hereís my answersÖ

>Are they important to your training?
I think its important to train in weapons, including modern weapons such as firearms. Both for being able to use them and defend against them. I love it when people find out I train in MA and they say something along the lines of, "Well, if someone has a gun, MA won't do you any good." I think I'm better able to defend myself and possibly come away alive from a confrontation with a gunman having trained for it than the folks who think there's nothing you can do to protect yourself v. a gun.

>Are they useful as a tool in your life?
Not so much. Its a part of my home-defense plan, but that's about it.

>Are they useful as self-protection in your life?
The likelihood that I'll need to use it to protect my life is infinitely small (statistically speaking). Its an incredibly small percentage of the population that ever needs to use deadly force, despite what the gun lobby (trying to protect our 2nd amendment rights) or the media (its a bad-bad dangerous world out there). You're more likely to lose your life in an auto accident or in an accident around the house or through disease. So, yes, they are useful in self-protection, but the likelihood of needing them to protect your life is terribly slim.

>Are you drilling them as much as you do other tools from the juhachimon?
No, and thatís a shame.

>Do you feel firearm weaponry retention is important?
Absolutely. If you own a gun, you should know how to keep it from getting taken away. Both from an enemy within your home (e.g. criminal) or from an enemy outside your home (e.g. the government). This is an area where I could use more training.

>How regular do you fire them at a range or shooting place?
A few years back I shot at least once a week. Sometimes 2-3 times a week. I went to classes, etc. Even competed in a match once. Sadly, I havenít been shooting in about 4 years. Would like to find the time again to go. Its fun.

shikoyama
7th March 2003, 13:10
Nijas were among the earliest to embrace gunpowder and firearms. Being an evolving art/practice, ninjutsu SHOULD be involved in the latest technology, right?

"Are they important to your training?"

Yes

"Are they useful as a tool in your life?"

yes

"Are they useful as self-protection in your life?"

yes

"Are you drilling them as much as you do other tools from the juhachimon?"

yes

"Do you feel firearm weaponry retention is important?"

yes

"Do you drill firearm weaponry retention in your dojo?"

yes

"How regular do you fire them at a range or shooting place?"

not as often as I should

"Are the firearms part of your ranking outline?"

yes

"Less guns in our life would result in less death by guns. After all a gun will not kill you unless in the hands of a human. "

PERHAPS . . . less death by guns . . . perhaps not less deaths . . .

What scares me is that the less guns good, responsible people have, the greater percentage the bad guys have. It is ignorant to think that "getting rid of guns" will make us all safe. I feel it will actually make honest people more vulerable to victimizers (either with or without firearms) that see easy prey in all the people around them that they know are unarmed. The possiblility of being armed creates the question in the would-be victimizer's mind that he may be challenged when he decides to steal your money or beat you up. A gun is only a thing . . . it is not "evil" itself . . . it is the intent of the user that makes it so . . . a person can kill someone with a pencil . . . are pencils evil?

michaelCODY
7th March 2003, 17:51
We most certainly use guns within our training. Not only is it a part of kajutsu, but it almost seems wrong to not include an element from the godai. Aside from the disarms, we also train in walking techniques with the gun while scanning such as yoko aruki, and basically all of our rolls; I think proper taijutsu makes all the difference in the handling of a gun no matter what the situation is at hand.

Butsuyama
7th March 2003, 19:47
What is great about training with Kamiyama is the gun training. There is no doubt in my mind that this type of training is needed for self defense. This is 2003, it is more likely someone will pull a gun on you then a sword, so why not train with firearms?

Not only is it good to train with firearms, but all the students in the dojo love it. The drills we do are fun and we really learn a lot not only about different types of guns, but also how it feels to move with it. Safety is really important and trust me there is plenty of that.

We in the US are more apt to come across a firearm then in the UK, so it seems more practical for us to train with them. I also believe that people in the US have a facination with firearms. I always say that you can never have too many guns. Right Mr. Ralph....

If you want to dress up in 500 year old Japanese armor and train with a sword, fine....that would be fun for Historical purposes. I myself would like to train in real world (2003) street smarts. I like doing things that are practical to MY nature here on this side of the ocean, and firearms are one of those things. Keep in mind this is an added extra bonus to the regular Ninjutsu training we do, but a very important part as a whole.

The saying goes : Do not bring a knife to a gun fight.

you bring the stick i bring the gun....who is more likely to persevere?

So the question goes...Why NOT train with firearms?? You want to leave YOUR well being in someone elses hands? Fine...see you on the other side.

DaddyBob
7th March 2003, 20:35
If anyone in the DFW area would like to do some shooting please let me know. I would like the chance to train and exchange ideas. I shoot a variety of pistols shotguns and rifles. The firearm is a wepon of the modern ages and evry art must grow less it become obsolete.

Peace
DB

Karyu
8th March 2003, 06:37
As a gun owner myself, I am very impressed with the Bujinkan's methods of firearms training with applied taijutsu. The use of sanshin has improved my ability to draw and aim in a single motion, as well as general gun handling. We recently had a seminar at my dojo with a former SWAT member and he was also impressed with our techniques.

There was an earlier post about Hatsumi-Sensei using guns in training, and I have a video of him showing defensive techniques with a Colt 45. The question was "Are there firearms in your dojo?", well there should be (safe, non-functional ones), as Sensei teaches them.

As far as the Bujinkan instructor who shot himself, my question is what kind of moron has a loaded gun for training with? It's quite simple to take the bullets out. I could also ask how many instructors have injured themselves using swords, knives, and other weapons as opposed to guns, but I think i'll let that one go...

Gene Williams
8th March 2003, 11:17
Disarming someone who is trained in handling firearms using empty hand techniques is very difficult to do. Chances are you will be facing an opponent with little training (unless you are breaking the law or in military combat). Even so, unless the gun is touching you or only a few inches away, there is a high probability you will be at least wounded, probably killed (if the person becomes angry at your efforts he is likely to fire more than once). If your assailant only wants your money or your car keys, give him what he wants. If you are pretty sure he is going to kill you anyway, then you must do something and I suppose some training would be useful then. However, most of what I have seen people teach in styles such as you are discussing will only get you killed. There is a lot of "urban myth" associated with what you are arguing about. I believe it is a dangerous fantasy to walk around thinking you can easily disarm an opponent with a gun. And, yes, I carry a gun, have for years and am trained to use it. Gene

Oni
8th March 2003, 14:28
For those that wish to discuss gun training in their schools please use this thread. For those that wish to continue the endless debate you have a very small bit of time to do so in the other thread. Any further posts to THIS thread concerning the gun debate will be removed.

BTW...apologies if you are unhappy with where I split the thread...but as some of you were half on topic I had to make a decision on which thread to put your stuff in. Some of your posts really belonged in both but I did not have that option.

michaelCODY
8th March 2003, 16:09
If I remember, it was Bud Malstrom that accidentally shot himself in the leg. But he's still really really good. ;)

Neil Richardson
10th March 2003, 14:06
BTW...apologies if you are unhappy with where I split the thread...but as some of you were half on topic I had to make a decision on which thread to put your stuff in. Some of your posts really belonged in both but I did not have that option.

I'd just like to state that I'm not happy that my post was hacked out of this thread and moved into another one. I believe it has changed the context in which I made my original statements and people looking at it now (and in the future) will misunderstand the point I was trying to make.

My final point on this issue (to avoid being mis-quoted or moved to a different thread once more) is the following:

Train in firearms at the range. Train in taijutsu at the dojo. If you wish, practice the ryu-ha kata with a replica gun, but make sure you <B>know the ryu-ha kata version first</B>.

Back to lurking, and thinking twice about posting again,
Neil.

John March
10th March 2003, 21:02
It was my firearms training that brought me to training in the Bujinkan. I believe gun ownership important because people who are incapable or disinclined to train in unarmed martial arts would be well served by firearms for self-defense purposes. That being saidÖ.

No disrespect to other dojos and/or teachers, but my opinion is that disarming others of firearms is a matter that should be addressed delicately. I second Gene in his opinion that trying to disarm a trained shooter is highly unrealistic. I also believe rolling with a loaded firearm, especially a handgun is unrealistic. It would be too easy to shoot yourself in the middle of a roll.

This reminds me of a story in the NYC area where a Ukrainian immigrant who was once a Soviet Self Defense instructor was mugged by two gun-wielding thugs. He disarmed one and was shot and killed by the second thug.

Karyu
10th March 2003, 22:49
Originally posted by John March
I second Gene in his opinion that trying to disarm a trained shooter is highly unrealistic. This reminds me of a story in the NYC area where a Ukrainian immigrant who was once a Soviet Self Defense instructor was mugged by two gun-wielding thugs. He disarmed one and was shot and killed by the second thug.


It's still better than doing nothing and getting shot anyway.