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Kimura
11th March 2003, 03:31
Just curious,At what point do karate practicioners cease from defining what they are practicing as not being called karate anymore?It seems to me that out of 100 practicioners you speak with,you might get 100 different answers as to when one is no longer practicing true karate.

Does one have to keep karate seperate from other art forms in order to stay true or pure to karate?if one intergrates other fighting methods with traditional karate methods does it cease from being called karate anymore?

EXAMPLES....

When one no longer practices Kata?Is there such a thing as karate without kata?When one does not formaly bow?when ones starts adding more grappling to his art?when one trains with gloves or adds boxing techniques to their routines?


At what exact moment are you no longer doing karate anymore and why?

What truly defines a pure karate practicioner?Isn't karate flexible enough for some changes?If not....... why?

Who cares?



Hector Gomez

Ginko
11th March 2003, 13:39
Hector,

In my Dojo, we start each class with several rounds of the Bas Rutten Workout. We rotate shadowboxing, Thai pads & the heavy bag. It's a great warmup & conditioner. We then train some basics and/or drills. The bulk of the class is spent on kata, kata applications & two-man drills based upon kata applications. Then we may finish up the class with some BJJ groundwork.
My personal opinion is that Karate must continue to evolve or it will become stagnant & anachronistic. People will not attack you today like they did in 1803 Okinawa. I include the kickboxing & groundwork to cover areas that may not be addressed as well by kata applications.
I think that Karate can be many things & can contain a lot of variation.

Goju-Ryu
11th March 2003, 16:45
I think karate stops being karate in the exact moment that the person that is training/teaching is not working towards human refinement...

Gene Williams
11th March 2003, 19:26
Hi Filipe, That's when it stops being karate-DO. Over time, and in so-called "civilized societies", the jutsu and do have been pretty much merged. I still think they can be viewed separately, and probably should be, at times, for training purposes. I think the longer you are in the arts, the more do predominates. Thanks. Gene

Machimura
12th March 2003, 03:41
I remember Caique saying to me and my friend Glenn that the "karate" he taught for the street,and that taught for sportive application was indeed different. I kinda' smiled and asked him if he really considered what he does karate, and he said "sure why not". That's always perplexed me, but I totally understand his perspective now.

Now understand for those on here who don't know who Carlos Enrique Elias ("Caique") is, he is a 5 stripe BB who trained with the Gracie family since childhood, especially Rickson. He was the highest ranked GJJ guy outside the Gracie family. He is very good at BJJ/GJJ/CJJ whatever you want to call it. To hear him use the term "karate" was a pleasant surprise to say the least. He is a real fighter and he knows what's up though.

Karate is no longer karate when you think you are no longer practicing karate but some newfangled pancration or MMAs, thinking that that very old concept of combat is evolutionary. Ain't NOTHING new under the sun! Karate and Judo are the reason most people do MAs. This applies all around the world. So to be a kickboxer and say you practice an "empty-hand" art, you would be correct. If you grapple and participate in BJJ, Judo, Shuai Jiao--whatever, and you claim to be doing "Tang Hand" or "Empty Hand" whatever karate means to you, then you are correct. It's all Chinese via Africa to Asia Minor the Middle east and Europe.

Say whatcha' like. Have a great Wednesday!

Bryan Cyr

Gene Williams
12th March 2003, 20:30
Thank you, Kenneth! Finally, someone hits the nail on the head. Higioshi Sensei and Kuniba have both said, "Karate is kata, kata is karate." I firmly believe that (and not kata you make up in the back yard, either). Gene

CEB
12th March 2003, 21:48
How many people's fighting style looks like their kata?

Kimura
12th March 2003, 22:59
ED,

I don't know what side of the fence you stand on sometimes but I love your Questions.

Hector Gomez

Machimura
12th March 2003, 23:28
Originally posted by CEB
How many people's fighting style looks like their kata?

Not very many!

Bryan Cyr

Kimura
12th March 2003, 23:45
Thank god !

Hector Gomez

Gene Williams
13th March 2003, 00:00
It isn't supposed to "look like their kata." Surely you know better than that and you are merely asking an impertinent question to goad others into a useless discussion of "modern" non-kata types versus traditionalists. If you really are asking the question seriously, then you have no clue about kata. So, just keep doing whatever it is you do. Gene

Gene Williams
13th March 2003, 00:03
Hell, Ed, your profile says Goju-ryu. You're just playing devil's advocate. Gene

CEB
13th March 2003, 00:07
Originally posted by Gene Williams
It isn't supposed to "look like their kata." ...

Why ?

Kimura
13th March 2003, 00:26
Gene don't worry about Ed,he just likes to get the juices flowing and the blood boiling,aside from that......he's a cool goju guy with an open mind.

Hector Gomez

PS: I'm the one who's stubborn.

CEB
13th March 2003, 00:39
Karate is Kata, Kata is Karate. I think I may have been the first guy to throw that quote down here at e-budo, but you would have to do a search on the phrase to find out. I believe it is true. The fighting techniques of our style are found in the kata. But I see a lot people pay lip service to karate being kata but when they demonstrate their kumite it either looks like WKF stuff or gay looking tippy toe crap.

Practicing the solo dance isn't what I feel to be the essence of kata. You can't learn the essence of kata all alone. I believe the heart of kata practice comes from yaksoku kumite and kakie kumite. Drilling the techniques of the Ryu in a repetive manner against a training partner working your way up to a full intensity full earnest attacks. We have two man sets of all our kata perhaps that gives me a somewhat different outlook on things. The way we fight does look like our kata. Our basic fighting stance is sanchin dachi. Sanchin Dachi isn't much different than a western boxers crouch. We don't line up full face of course. The line of strength in the stance is the line that runs foot to foot. We are turned oblique when we fight, the same way you do Kakie Kumite.

A few months ago we had a young Shodan leading kihon practice and he made the statement that Shiko Dachi was a training stance not a fighting stance. Later that evening I had him give frontal attack, classic karate seiken and I tossed with a variation of sucui nage from a stance that looked like shiko dachi. I told him "see fighting stance".

So yes the kata is the ryu. But if you do not fight the same way you do your kihon I don't know how much value I see in it.

CEB
13th March 2003, 00:59
Originally posted by Kimura
ED,

I don't know what side of the fence you stand on sometimes .....
Hector Gomez

Neither do I. Really. There are issues concerning martial art practice that I change my mind on every few months. Issues involving Jiyu Kumite give me problems. I can see positives and negetives of various approaches and I have changes of heart concerning its practice about every 3 months or so. I remember when you Florida guys hung the presidental election. My opinions on that depended on what talking head I last heard speak on MSNBC. I can be easily swayed. The cost of being open minded I guess.

Gene Williams
13th March 2003, 01:48
Ed, thanks. We approach kata the same way...don't all orthodox ryu? I think a lot of orthodox styles have gotten away from two man work and hard repetitive applications. That is why you find fewer people who understand the purpose of kata and why so much bunkai looks rigid and forced. Gene

Goju Man
13th March 2003, 03:35
An interesting topic, not really touched in a long while. Nice to hear from you Ed.;) I have been saying the same thing about kata. No ones kumite looks indicative of their style anymore. I was even on Mr. Mattson's Uechi site a while back where they have some mp3's you can watch, one of which was a championchip kumite match. Look at that and then one of their kata mp3's and see if it resembles anything of Uechi Ryu.

I may be mistaken but I thought the main reason for many kata was so karate could be practised in disguise of a "dance" during the occupation.

Now, not withstanding Bryan's usual sport vs reality argument, let me remind everyone that NO traditional karateka of anykind has been successful in ANY mma event. Even Pomfrets, an Uechi stylist understands the necessity and value of grappling. If you think that these "newfangled" guys can't fight, I think Rickson Gracie, Kazushi Sakuraba, (the man who beat Royce), Bob Sapp, (ex football 350 lber),
Antonio Noguiera, (reigning heavyweight Pride champ and submitted the 350 lb Sapp), Tito Ortiz, Frank Shamrock and Chuck Liddell can't fight, you are being very naive. Even Tank Abbott, who is no martial artist and just a tough mo fo, who had won many earlier matches in the UFC by just being a bad ash, was submitted rather easily recently.

Goju Man
13th March 2003, 03:37
There are some groups who's kata looks very much like the way they fight, Ashihara, Enshin. But I guess they are not considered traditional by many though.;)

Kimura
13th March 2003, 04:16
Ed,

About being open minded,Does this include changing any portion of your training if it is proven or demonstrated to be more effective?

Even if it means stearing away from what most consider to be pure karate?

Hector Gomez

CEB
13th March 2003, 04:58
Originally posted by Goju Man
There are some groups who's kata looks very much like the way they fight, Ashihara, Enshin. But I guess they are not considered traditional by many though.;)

Personally, if their methods are effective that is all that matters.

The reason I'm "traditional" Goju Ryu is because when I moved to Springfield I was a judo player that had about 3 years of Shotokan karate as a kid. There was no Judo in Springfield and the toughest school in town was a "traditional" Goju Ryu dojo. Most the instructors were police officers and there was very little interest in sport karate in that dojo.

The Goju people I have trained with have had good standing grappling skills. Goju has a lot of grappling. Our kakie techniques are mostly what I would classify as grappling. I have found a lot of their grappling skills to be lacking once you go to the ground, but overall I have found Goju to be an effective well rounded style.

Also, I have seen other Goju schools turn out students that couldn't defend themselves from a piss ant. That is what I hate to see especially if their training is providing people with enough confidence and courage to go out and get themselves hurt.

Every systematic method uses some way to catalog its techniques. Goju Ryu uses kata. Judo has 7 kata but more importantly I think the gokyo no waza (which has been since expanded) was the main method of cataloging its techniques. The Lion's Den probably has a list of favorite fighting techniques hanging on a wall somewhere, I don't know.

Being traditional for sake of tradition is no good if the methods don't give you what it is you seek from your training. If Ashihara and Enshin work for the people that practice them thats great.

If you are then schmuck nobody cares what your lineage is. If the worst thing someone can say about you is that you are not traditional or your karate lineage is questionable then you must be doing something OK or else people would be saying something like ,he is a wuss who couldn't take a punch to save his life.

Good night. Have a good week.

Goju Man
13th March 2003, 12:38
If you are then schmuck nobody cares what your lineage is. If the worst thing someone can say about you is that you are not traditional or your karate lineage is questionable then you must be doing something OK or else people would be saying something like ,he is a wuss who couldn't take a punch to save his life

Ed, you also bring up another good point. At what point is lineage more important the teaching? I've known guys with lineage that are schmucks, and guys with no lineage that are very good. There are many I think that would opt for the lineage.

hector gomez
13th March 2003, 21:35
"When does karate stop being karate?"

I guess when you start promoting kickboxing & grappling instead of karate.All kidding aside guys,if any of you are in the Miami area in early April,please check out our latest show.

I am trying to atleast include one kyokushin match on this show.I have to keep my karate roots in their somehow.LOL

Walt Harms
13th March 2003, 22:29
Many good posts, karate to me is equal
parts, kata, kumite, bunkai.

Karate has to be Japan/Okinowa based.

Karate is not BJJ - MMA etc.

All of those are great but not Karate.

Walt Harms

Gene Williams
13th March 2003, 23:09
The most extreme statement I have ever heard of this discussion was at a Hakko-ryu clinic I attended years ago. I remember the instructor saying, "As soon as you grab or are grabbed, it stops being karate." I don't agree with that, but it pretty clearly states one view. I personally believe karate has some grappling built into the kata, but not too much. Karate generally assumes more than one opponent, so it is designed for being on your feet. That is why judo or some type of jujutsu is a good supplement to your training. My experience is that most jujutsu practitioners don't punch or kick worth a hoot, and most karateka are lost on the ground. You need both. Gene

Goju Man
14th March 2003, 00:33
. I personally believe karate has some grappling built into the kata, but not too much. Karate generally assumes more than one opponent, so it is designed for being on your feet.
Let's try to remember that fighting in general was very different then. The easiest way to equate this was with boxing at that time. Even though they still had the jab, cross, uppercut, etc., it looked radically different than boxing today. Boxing today is still boxing, but the "art" itself has progressed and evolved. Boxers are always looking for something new or improved, not necessarily trying to find out how it was done in the late eighteen hundreds. Karate can also evolve and grow, once we can accept that there are ways to enrich it.

Goju Man
14th March 2003, 00:46
I remember Caique saying to me and my friend Glenn that the "karate" he taught for the street,and that taught for sportive application was indeed different. I kinda' smiled and asked him if he really considered what he does karate, and he said "sure why not". That's always perplexed me, but I totally understand his perspective now.
That's a very strange statement to make, considering the Gracie family made a career if you will by putting down EVERYTHING karate stands for. Issuing challenges to people from anywhere to a no holds barred fights to include karate. Several challenges were met, with the Gracies being victorious everytime. Rorion is heard on that tape, (Gracie in Action) commenting that all they have to do is take them down to the ground. So saying that Caique practices or even teaches anything resembling "karate" is not correct. I doubt he being the highest ranking black belt outside the Gracie family, that he would repeat that aloud.


Ken, that's an interesting site.

Machimura
14th March 2003, 04:05
Yeah he did say that. I can't verify it but he used the term "karate" several times in that conversation. Maybe facetiously, but I doubt it. I know what Rorion feels about MAs in general. He was including ANY art in that challenge, even other NHB ones. Using a term like karate is very broad. It means different things to different people. I don't know if Caique even remembers saying that. You seem to be the kind of person that needs to experience something for yourself. You ain't gonna believe what I say, but here goes a waste of time....

As for how the "Gracies" think about karate or any art outside their own, well you can pretty much figure that out. GJJ is a business and a familial tradition. Why would they ever hype another art over their own? Caique is not a Gracie. He broke away a couple of years ago. He doesn't think like them, because he is his own person and very educated. He's fought for real in Brazil and doesn't consider street fighting to be anything like a competition, NHB or otherwise. Email him and ask him. He mentioned that he would never do an armbar on the street. Strikes (elbows and knees) make more sense.

We are friends and agree on practically everything. I also consider Ryron Gracie a homey, and I can tell you that we also agree on what is real and what is fun exercise or pseudo-confrontation. I could never expect to be as knowledgeable in Groundfighting as Ryron or Caique, but I can handle myself failry well in all ranges. They recognized this after I trained with them, and said as much or more.

My bro who is about 235#s (71") handled Caique's purples and longtime Houston students with ease. EASE. He played college football and fought a lot with me and others when young, but he never, ever had any formal grappling training. Unless you want to count me practicing judo on him when we were kids, hahaha. I am no brute, but I'm no squirt either. I handled the higher belts with no problem, and they commented how me and my bro were naturals. Like Rorion says in G.I.A.; in the natural world grappling is second nature. I guess people being a part of nature, this may be true for a lot of us. Striking DEFINITELY has to be learned and ingrained. Indepth skills at anything requires diligence and hardwork. I agree with Rorion. I was a natural grappler who learned to strike pretty good. Same with my bro and other folks I've trained with.

I know these folks personally. I get to talk them intimately. I am no bandwagoneer, like the majority of people in America, I like proof. What you think you know about GJJ is from your interpretation of a tape about a decade old. Don't try and tell me what these folks think. I KNOW what they think.

Don't be confused. Know that there are folks who know people and things! Bye.

Bryan Cyr

Kimura
14th March 2003, 06:58
Byran,

No one here,has "EVER"stated that the streets is the same as NHB or any other combat sport for that matter.What I do know for a fact is that the Gracies were part of a martial arts revolution around the world that made alot of people pay attention to the importance of grappling.

Grappling is the true essence of gracie jiujitsu,I have a friend down here in Miami by the name of Pedro valente.he runs the gracie Miami academy ,he grew up side by side with royce,rickson,royler and rorian
he is like part of their family.

Aside from just straight matt grappling,he teaches the gracie self defense portion of gracie jiujitsu to his students and also to some of the police academies in this area,although there are some strikes involved in their self defense tactics,I can honestly tell you that the emphasis is on seizing & controlling the situation thru grappling.


If you need refference on gracie self defense system check out royce &ceasar gracies new book on gracie jiujitsu for self defense,I really don't understand what point we are disscussing here sometimes,you come on here and make statements like if okinawan karate is the best thing since sliced bread and I due agree that it is a good system(it's all good),then you turn around and acknowledge a little bit of grappling thru the gracies stating that they really know what's up with karate.

C'mon Bryan Okinawan karate and gracie jiujitsu have about as much in common as we have with the middle east.The point you are trying to make is what exactly?

You have made derrogitory statements here and on other threads about wado ryu,shotokan,kickboxing and kyokushin all non okinawans systems of striking.this makes me think you have not gone and trained with champions of those arts to be making such broad statements.

For your information most all brazilian jiujitsu fighters that compete in NHB train mostly boxing and muaythai for the ring and yes especially for the street and that's a fact jack.

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
14th March 2003, 13:01
Bryan, I must respectfully disagree with you again. For the same reasons as Hector as stated. You have basically said in no uncertain terms that the Japanese don't know squat about karate, nothing outside of Okinawa is of any value as a martial art, now you have thrown purple belts of GJJ/BJJ around, seems to me you are ready to claim the UFC title away from Tito Ortiz.:D You seem very well educated at times but then you let yourself go and wow. If you can throw around Gracie purples as you say, that pretty much means you can walk into ANY Judo school in the U.S. and Canada and choke out black belts left and right. Is that what you are saying? I did e-mail Caique a couple of times back when you used another name than now and claimed to be his rep in Houston. Your story has still never been verified. If I made anything even close to the comments you've made about mma, kickboxing, etc., about traditional karate, I would probably be kicked off of E-Budo, yet you rant on.

Sochin
14th March 2003, 15:45
Ok,this is now a personal exchange between two or three folks, no longer suitable here...take it to private e-mail, please.