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Zatoichi_1800
13th March 2003, 06:24
I wanted to start a thread for people to post video of them practicing sword techniques. I have found only handful of websites showing videos with cutting abilities.

So if you got what it takes, get a video camera and load it up to a website to share with us.

Here's my attempt in cutting with my Paul Chen Pratical Katana...

http://www.picturedot.com/ArtistDefault-VideoPage.asp?VideoSpeed=H&VID=3312

The apple vid is my favorite.


I know this a shallow attempt to brag but I can't really share this with my friends. Only people involve with the art will appreciate it more.

Thank you

Zatoichi_1800
13th March 2003, 16:25
Over 60 views and no comments...Some say say something. Is my form good? Any tips to improve? What other tests can I do besides tatami?

I have cut cardboard boxes and magazines and styrofoam and a few cable steel wires.

George Kohler
13th March 2003, 17:11
Originally posted by Zatoichi_1800
Over 60 views and no comments...Some say say something.

I have comment. Why are you not following the rules? You need to sign your name on every post that you make.

Also, can you please remove the gif? It is taking up too much bandwidth.

Zatoichi_1800
13th March 2003, 17:33
Oops! Yeah I just read the forum rules. Quite different from most forums. Anyway its fixed.

George Kohler
13th March 2003, 17:54
Hi Adrian,

Just for clarification, you need to have your full name, or have first initial and last name, on the posts.

pgsmith
13th March 2003, 18:15
Adrian wrote ...
Over 60 views and no comments...Some say say something. Is my form good? Any tips to improve? What other tests can I do besides tatami?
Somebody has to say it so here goes ... While it does look like you have spent quite a bit of time practicing that, I'm afraid that it looks very wrong. I am impressed that you still have all of your fingers though! There are dozens of things that you are doing wrong in that particular video clip, but I'm not even going to try to explain it over the internet.

As far as tips to improve, my suggestion would be to find a qualified instructor and actually learn what you should be doing. I know this is not what you were looking for, but I'm afraid it's the stark truth. Your video clip affords practitioners some good chuckles, but no one made any comments because it's very hard to figure out what to say that would be helpful and not just insulting.

Please don't get me wrong! I am NOT trying to put you or what you are doing down. It is just that it's extremely dangerous to be trying that on your own without qualified instruction, and there are lot of things that cannot be learned from watching films.

Sorry,

Charlie Kondek
13th March 2003, 18:20
I haven't watched it yet because I wasn't able to get it to load. I'm thinking my player might need an update...

gendzwil
13th March 2003, 18:59
There's two videos of him tossing something up in the air and cutting it with a single-handed reverse grip upward cut on the draw. About the only thing that can be said is that the sword hits the object and he doesn't manage to stab himself. The videos are edited with slo-mo and effects for that extra-cool anime wannabe effect.

Zatoichi_1800
13th March 2003, 19:17
any opinions I value. Good or bad doesn't matter. I am really after the feedback. Yeah I know that I have no formal training but, I do have a brain so I don't cut my fingers. I practice with bokken first, then a dull sword and then slowly with a live blade. I have read books and seen videos before I even purchased my Paul Chen blade. Problem is I still can't find a decent school around here. Its mostly people swinging metal objects around and bumping into each other.

gendzwil
13th March 2003, 20:27
Originally posted by Zatoichi_1800
Problem is I still can't find a decent school around here.

http://www.kendo-usa.org/statedojolist.htm#NY

Zatoichi_1800
13th March 2003, 21:06
Thanks for the link. I've been on that website. Only tried the NYC ones. I'll give the one in flushing a shot. I had a friend that has been studying Iaido for 20 yrs and was skeptical with the ones we went to. He usually hops from school to school. Guess I will have to do the same. I was looking for one to stay in a for a long time.

Charlie Kondek
13th March 2003, 21:48
Are you serious?

Zatoichi_1800
13th March 2003, 22:31
What reason would I have to lie?

gendzwil
13th March 2003, 22:37
Well if you've seriously visited all the dojo in NYC listed there and aren't happy, there isn't anything we can do for you. You've got some movie/manga version of swordsmanship in your head that you're not going to find.

Zatoichi_1800
13th March 2003, 22:53
Its become too popular in the city and classes are always over-filled with students. I see lots of yuppies in the class and they have all the latest gear but still manage to bonk someone on the head. And I make it a habit to visit schools I'm interested at least 3x on random days.

Charlie Kondek
14th March 2003, 13:52
Originally posted by Zatoichi_1800
I see lots of yuppies in the class and they have all the latest gear but still manage to bonk someone on the head.

Really? Like what kind of gear? I also am interested in why your friend, who has done iaido for 20 years, doesn't find any of the sword-related dojos in NYC worth pursuing.

Ka1yama
14th March 2003, 14:17
I haven't seen the videos, they won't load on my computer. I think the idea is great and think it is great to have someone so interest in sharing.
Neil Stewart

Zatoichi_1800
14th March 2003, 18:14
That website uses a java based prog to display the videos. Check to see if you have the latest vrml installed in windows internet explorer

Todd Stephens
14th March 2003, 18:26
I think we're seeing Darwinism at work here...

All sarcasm aside, what you are doing in that apple video is extremely dangerous. Unless you've been taught by someone qualified to teach it, it is not always common sense as to what you should and should not do with a live blade. It would only take a slight mistake to cut through your saya and perhaps remove a finger or two, and you won't get a "redo" after that happens.

Also, I would strongly caution you to be extremely careful about what you cut with a Practical Katana. Well-soaked tatami..... maybe. Anything tougher than that, and you're risking a catastrophic accident. Simply put, those blades are not really made or put together for cutting. There is a reason why blades built for cutting cost over $1K, and much of it cannot be seen by the eye. I really don't think the PK is safe for such use, though. For $150, you shouldn't expect much!

As for videos, I have a clip of me bungling a basic cut with my new Bugei sword, but nobody gets to see that! :D


______________
Todd Stephens

Douglas Wylie
14th March 2003, 20:05
Originally posted by Todd Stephens
Also, I would strongly caution you to be extremely careful about what you cut with a Practical Katana. Well-soaked tatami..... maybe. Anything tougher than that, and you're risking a catastrophic accident. Simply put, those blades are not really made or put together for cutting. There is a reason why blades built for cutting cost over $1K, and much of it cannot be seen by the eye. I really don't think the PK is safe for such use, though. For $150, you shouldn't expect much!

______________
Todd Stephens

2 quick points.

1. I have seen them cut very well (including a perfect do cut (on tatami omote)making what I call "the beer coozie" from one slice).

I could be mistaken but aren't Bugei and Nosyu... ahem... swordstore.com cutters made from Hanwei also?

2. Gunto were cut (or punched) out of steel in WW2, people cut with them all the time.

PS-What you are doing is very unsafe.

gendzwil
14th March 2003, 20:23
Bugei cutters are Hanwei, Swordstore is a different supplier.

Todd Stephens
14th March 2003, 20:26
Originally posted by Douglas Wylie


1. I have seen them cut very well (including a perfect do cut (on tatami omote)making what I call "the beer coozie" from one slice).

I could be mistaken but aren't Bugei and Nosyu... ahem... swordstore.com cutters made from Hanwei also?


You're probably right, and I'm sure that someone who knows how to cut correctly can do so safely with one of these. When you start talking about cutting steel cable with one, though, I would have a hard time trusting the integrity of the particular blade. I have serious doubts as to the quality of a live blade which is mass produced and sold for such a low cost. Of course, if you break it, you're only out $150. It's not worth hurting yourself or others, however. Maybe it is fine--I just have a hard time believing it, though.

As far as I know, the Bugei exclusive swords are made by Hanwei, but if you look at the two side by side, there is no comparison. One looks like a child's drawing, the other a fine oil painting. It would be my guess that the PK is quickly produced with little attention to detail, other than having a katana-shaped-sharpened-chunk-o'-steel. Or they are made by inexperienced smiths. Either way, the few PK and PK+'s I have seen are extremely crude, and although it may be fine for light cutting, I wouldn't trust the quality control.


______________
Todd Stephens

Douglas Wylie
14th March 2003, 21:30
Originally posted by gendzwil
Bugei cutters are Hanwei, Swordstore is a different supplier.

Whoops, who makes the swordstore cutting swords?

I'll grant you, you cant compare something with little attention to detail to something of a higher grade costing 10x's as much.

Till I get jumped by a steel cable, I won't agree with the necessity for cutting one. :D

Zatoichi_1800
14th March 2003, 21:31
I know PK are the lowest of the totem pole of swords. But I really don't ask much from the sword. As far as the steel cable. I'm cutting like bicycle brake cables. Very thin. I also tried with cat5 network cable. It cut through it like butter. I have seen those swords in the 10K mark and definately I will never try abusing the blade like I do with PK. But thats what the PK is for practical "Light" cutting and nothing more.

Thanks for all the concern with my fingers guys.

Charlie Kondek
14th March 2003, 21:35
Hey, Todd, where you at?

Zatoichi, you still haven't answered my questions. Why wouldn't you want to learn with a traditional teacher? What are you looking for, iaido, kendo, kenjustu, what?

pgsmith
14th March 2003, 21:40
Here's some video showing some proper cutting technique... http://www.bugei.com/index2.html

And ... http://www.ecmas.com/toyama/video.asp

Those should keep you busy for a while! :D

Cheers,

Zatoichi_1800
14th March 2003, 21:54
Iaido and Kendo really. Just that the teachers are not capable of overseeing everyone in class. The dojo's are small, cause its freaking expensive a square foot in the city, and packed with too many people. If you are close to sensei fine. But if you're far back, all you hear "oops sorry". I had taken Aikido classes like that and I hate it. I like small groups. Just here in NYC you open the yellow pages, there pages and pages of Martial Arts schools. Its become too diluted to really find a quality teacher here.

Zatoichi_1800
14th March 2003, 21:59
Hey thanks for that Toyama link. But I was really looking for Home Made vids. All you guys/ladies out there, has it ever occurred to film yourself? I'm sure many have. At least to review if they are making proper technique.

Paulo K. Ogino
14th March 2003, 22:19
I saw your "sword" video, and I saw the way you were putting the sword back to the scabbard... in real combat, you're dead. You should never take your eyes out of sight, even after finishing a succesfull cut. It might be a detail, but also it will improve your skills if you only practive drawing the sword and back, before doing any cut. Nice videos, and I think the idea of posting videos very cool, there are few resources over the internet about sword drawing, unless you pay for it... Try not to put too much effects on the videos, you can get distracted from the main subject... sword cutting. What program did you use to edit the videos? Keep working and good luck!!!! :D

Zatoichi_1800
14th March 2003, 22:44
Thanks.

I always put my sword back in the saya so I don't cut myself. As you can see I did that small space(not too smart). And yes I don't use the my hand to guide the sword in that I have to look at the down but, again, I don't want to cut myself or put my oils from my hand on the metal. This sword stains too fast. After slicing that apple, took me like an hour to buff those black stains out. I can do proper Noto with dull blades or those cheap stainless steel blades with the 45' angle grind. I just wanted to show the cutting and nothing more.

As for the effects I can't help it. I'm studying film now so I need practice. I thought using that emboss filter(everything grey) help show the pieces flying in the air after I sliced it. It kinda forces you to see only the sword and the sliced apple.

I used Pinnacle Studio 7. Not bad. But Adobe Premier is much better. You do amazing effects with it.

Thanks Again.

Zatoichi_1800
15th March 2003, 01:19
Originally posted by pgsmith
Here's some video showing some proper cutting technique... http://www.bugei.com/index2.html

And ... http://www.ecmas.com/toyama/video.asp

Those should keep you busy for a while! :D

Cheers,

Saw the James Williams vid...awesome. totally gets you pumped. Great work from director.

Bob Elger vids are good too.

FastEd
15th March 2003, 15:23
Originally posted by Zatoichi_1800
Iaido and Kendo really. Just that the teachers are not capable of overseeing everyone in class. The dojo's are small, cause its freaking expensive a square foot in the city, and packed with too many people. If you are close to sensei fine. But if you're far back, all you hear "oops sorry". I had taken Aikido classes like that and I hate it. I like small groups. Just here in NYC you open the yellow pages, there pages and pages of Martial Arts schools. Its become too diluted to really find a quality teacher here.

Not to be rude dude, but what you are describing is just the norm! Try any first year University course then talk about getting lost in the crowd!

If you want to learn this stuff then suck it up and stick it out. If you are not will to spend 5 years in the crowd before Sensei begins to recognize you, then change interests.

gendzwil
15th March 2003, 17:18
You should try training in Japan. We just had our annual seminar, 80 people together in a 2/3 size gym. My sensei remarked "now this is like real kendo!" The rest of us were just trying to avoid crashing into one another and getting hit in the back of the head by a stray shinai.

Anyways, what Ed said. If you think you're going to walk into any traditional dojo and get special attention from sensei, you're dreaming. After a year he might bother to learn your name. Meanwhile, you deal with sempai (senior students). Beginners come, beginners go, we take them seriously as soon as it appears that they are taking kendo seriously.

Ric Flinn
15th March 2003, 19:14
Adrian,

Listen to these guys, they know what they're talking about. If you go in with the attitude that you're probably just going to jump from school to school, nobody will ever take you seriously. Why should they? Don't expect an instructor to commit to you until you've commited to them.

Personally, I hear people tell me all the time that they're going to join this or that club, they can't wait, etc. but few ever actually do it. Maybe they come for a few classes then stop. I'm sure lots of others on this forum see the same thing. So don't be surprised, and don't take it personally, if you don't get all the attention you think you deserve in the first 3 weeks of class. Just go. Be a sponge. Be respectful. Be patient.

Anyway, here's another place I'd certainly check out if I were in the area: www.newyorkbudokai.net

Good luck.

Zatoichi_1800
16th March 2003, 00:38
Thanks again for the info. I guess I was thinking like an american and not japanese. Your all right about having to earn the sensei attention. And with all those yuppies, they probably get many students that drop out after awhile. I'll check out that school that Ric Flinn submitted.

OK, so you guys managed to save a lost soul...now where are the other home videos. If you guys need help in uploading video into your computer and/or website, don't hesitate to ask me for help. Its pretty simple. And the investment is less than $100 bucks.

socho
16th March 2003, 03:56
Adrian,
yep, thinking like an American again :) . One thing you will not see in Japanese-style dojo is the "hey, look at me" stuff, especially from a new or junior student. Posting a video of yourself cutting, without training, doing stuff you 'learned' from a book or video, because it is cool or whatever, does not reflect the 'humble spirit' that is at the heart of many Japanese sword arts. Nothing really wrong with wanting to cut, or wanting to learn to use a sword, or wanting to get feedback on what you are doing, but if it is outside the context of a specific art, then it really belongs in the general discussion forum, not here, IMO.

Good luck, be safe

Charlie Kondek
17th March 2003, 14:14
What Ed and Neil said. :D

Of course, you will get some individualized instruction at the outset. But in kendo, and probably iaido, too (I come from a very small iaido club so am not sure what's standard), you're shown something, and then it's work, work, work on it for a looong time, usually with the rest of the club. It's really humbling, but you have to knuckle down and immerse yourself in it if you really want to do it.

There are some EXCELLENT dojos in NYC. I know of the following, and can recommend them all because I have practiced with their club members and sensei at Midwest gatherings:

Ken Zen Institute
54 Thomas St.
New York, NY
Kendo Tu Th 7:00-9:00pm Sa 6:30-9:00pm Su 12:00-2:00pm
Iaido M 6:00-8:00pm W 6:00-8:00pm Sa 4:00-6:00pm
Contact: Daniel Ebihara (212)406-9104

New York City Kendo Club
Jan Hus Church 212-874-6161
351 E. 74th St.
New York, NY
Tu Th 6:30PM, Sa 2:30PM
Contact: Noboru Kataoka (212)877-8722

Shidogakuin NY Doshikan
225 East 43rd Street (btwn 2-3 Aves)
2nd Floor
New York, NY
Su 3:00-4:30pm Iaido 4:30-6:00pm Kendo-beginners & youth 6:00-7:00pm Kendo keiko
Tu 6:00-7:30pm Kendo-beginners & youth 7:30-9:30pm Kendo-adv. & keiko
Th 6:00-7:30pm Kendo-beginners & youth 7:30-9:30pm Kendo-adv. & keiko
Contact: Shozo Kato (203)637-5475



BTW, I have some video of me doing kendo, but no net space to host it. Yet!

Zatoichi_1800
17th March 2003, 15:37
BTW, I have some video of me doing kendo, but no net space to host it. Yet!

You can try getting those free webspace like www.ionichost.com They give you 50megs free. Or to make it easier join these 2 free services for video sharing:

http://dazzle.mightyeyes.com/
10 megs free


http://www.picturedot.com/
Not sure the limit of file size but they give you just 2 free uploads.



"Muad'Dib, Muad'Dib!"

Charlie Kondek
17th March 2003, 15:53
Hahaha! "My name is a killing word." Cheers, Adrian!

Marc Renouf
26th March 2003, 15:20
OK, you asked, so here goes.

You are an accident waiting to happen. The first thing I'd like to point out is the safety issue of trying to do tameshigiri in a confined space. Your body knows that what you are doing is tremendously dangerous, which is why you instinctively duck your head and hunch your shoulders as you cut. This is very poor form. Good cutting posture should be upright and strong, not weak and cringing.

As for your noto, I have to agree with Paulo. I realize that you are taking pains not to cut yourself, but that just illustrates a point: you are taking pains not to cut yourself. The only time you should ever look down at the sword like that is if you are handling a sword that is unfamiliar to you (until your body gets the hang of the length and weight of the sword). Your noto should be so well-practiced, so smooth, and so flawless that you handle your live blade the same way you handle an iaito. You need to have that much confidence in your movement. If you don't, you have no business picking up a live blade. The fact that you are unsure of your movements tells me that your grounding in the proper mechanics of noto is weak. I suggest you leave the tameshigiri alone for a while and seek instruction from a qualified teacher.

As a side note, one of the things that will help is to get proper gear. It looks like you're just holding the saya. I wouldn't think of trying to do that kind of noto without having the saya firmly secured in my obi. You don't have to kit up in complete samurai dress to practice kenjutsu, but at the very least an obi gives you another point of control when attempting noto.

If you actually do end up practicing iaido or kenjutsu with a qualified instructor, you will in all likelihood look back on these videos in six months and cringe in embarrasment.

So yeah, to reiterate what others have said, what you're doing is really dangerous.

Zatoichi_1800
27th March 2003, 17:04
Duly Noted...