Do you need to be in good physical shape for Taijutsu?

[Bradenn]

?

[Rokushakubo]

My opinion is that to train you do not necessarily have to be in peak physical condition. However, it is in your own interests to stay fit. Why train for 30 years to be able to beat any attacker, only to die of heart disease?

[Chiburi]

I believe this subject was covered lately....why don't you do a search.

Anyway, I believe that Taijutsu doesn't demand an optimal state of fitness -- unless one wants to be a ninja and jump over 5 m walls :)

Cheers,

[Chiburi]

Richard, I think that everyone here agrees with you, at least to some extent. For "Warriors" it's necessary to be in good physical condition to be able not only to fight, but to take on the crap that comes along with fighting and war.

Taijutsu, on the other hand, doesn't take an athlete to learn. One can get off the sofa, dump the beer and popcorn for an hour and a half to learn basic techniques to defend him or herself. Don't you think it's good that these "couchpotatoes" learn to defend themselves and at the same time get a little exercise? Maybe this person will fall in love with the martial arts, as many of us in this forum have (although I'm not suggesting that you used to be confined to the space between the TV and the refrigerator :) ), and start to work out to get in better shape with the lure of some day becoming a "warrior". I find it great if Taijutsu gives the spark for someone to start exercising.

Let's face it, these days true warriors are few. Some people are satisfied with learning Taijutsu, while others want to try to learn Ninpo. These are two different things, although I don't think I need to tell you this. This question was about Taijutsu (though of course Bradenn might have meant Ninpo with it).

And to the question about fat guys in the army, a recent survey of the Finnish Army indicated that only 18% of the privates were in good enough physical shape to pass the PC. :)

Cheers,

[william northcote]

I only do enough exersise just to get along. I am not bothered by the fact that you need to be in the well developed muscle, looking ripped to the teeth. I have muscle but it is only there due to some push ups, sit ups and enough to get me going on a morning.

[Rokushakubo]

Originally posted by Chiburi
Don't you think it's good that these "couchpotatoes" learn to defend themselves and at the same time get a little exercise?

Absolutely. They may get attacked by their angry wives (wanting them to paint the fence or whatever) while moving between the sofa and the fridge to get another beer.

:D

[kimq]

It appears to me that flexibility and body awareness are more important than cardio or strength when it comes to taijutsu.

Boxers duke it out for long periods, so they must have good cardio. It's all about striking with these guys, so it stands to reason that they have tons of upper body strength. Soldiers are expected to cover great distances on foot and manhandle their heavy equipment, so they must be both strong and durable. Combative pilots, however, are very advanced tool users and require less physical development.

My perspective is more about getting things over with in as short a time as possible. PUT THEM DOWN RIGHT NOW! If things get drawn out, I will do whatever I can to get out as it is clear no good can come from the conflict - generally, as there are always exceptions. The vast majority of my current lifestyle is urbanized, so the distances to concealment, help, or available modes of transportation are relatively short. There is little need, in this regard, to develop a strong cardio base.

This is not to say that being fit and healthy are bad ideas. As someone already said, what's the point in living until I'm 50 and then keeling over from a heart attack? I just don't see the relationship between strength and endurace as strongly as others when it comes to our taijutsu.

[kimq]

Originally posted by Jeff Mueller
Generally speaking Kim, strength hides technical inadequacies. Hence why people feel the need to lift weights all the time.

I know what you mean. I trained with a hiatus hernia for essentially three years. With such a condition, you have no choice but to learn everything with a minimum amount of strength because you literally don't have any to rely on. When I finally had my corrective sugery, it was a two-month recovery time of liquid diets and slowly returning to solid food. I lost close to 30 pounds during surgery recovery. I'm the weakest I have ever been in over a decade.

I am happy to say, however, that this road through hell has helped my body awareness and taijutsu. Now I can move with greater ease than I did before and even astound myself with what I am able to do on the mats. It's like emerging from a three-year cocoon.

[Oni]

I want to reiterate an idea that seems to get left out in these discussions much of the time. It is my opinion that ninpo is an art that can be learned and utilized by many different people, of many different sizes, shapes, and ability levels.

I do agree that being in some sort of shape will definitely give you an advantage...however in a real self defense situation (where one person is literally in fear of their lives) the body is capable of creating what it needs for you to survive, whether you are in ideal shape or not.

Our bodies are capable of performing amazing feats of strength, agility, etc when put into adrenal fight or flight circumstances. We have all heard the stories of mothers lifting cars to rescue their children.



The Adrenal Medulla: Important for Fight or Flight

Within the inner core of each adrenal gland is the adrenal medulla. Its tissue develops from nerve tissue and it is controlled by the sympathetic nervous system, the body’s first line of defense against stress. It secretes the hormones, epinephrine or adrenaline and norepinephrine or noradrenaline in response to sympathetic nerve stimulation. Epinephrine is also released in response to hypoglycemia. These hormones are secreted when a person is physically injured, frightened, angry or under stress. The adrenal medulla prepares a person physiologically to deal with threatening situations. Epinephrine and norepinephrine bring about all the responses necessary for the “fight or flight” response. People have been known to perform amazing feats like lifting a heavy piece of furniture out of a burning house or lifting a car to free a child trapped underneath.

The adrenal medullary hormones cause blood to be routed to those organs necessary for emergency action. Blood vessels to the skin become constricted thus protecting the body from blood loss in case of lacerations. This explains why people often look pale when they are afraid or angry. Blood vessels to the brain and muscles become dilated. Increased blood flow to the brain allows one to become instantly alert while more blood flow to the muscles causes them to have more stamina. Glucose and fatty acid levels rise in the blood assuring necessary fuel for energy. All of the airways become enlarged so the person can breathe effectively. Epinephrine and norepinephrine are secreted daily in small amounts. Anxiety and stress arouse the adrenal glands to action.



Just a snippet from an article online...one of many...

In my opinion strength is of far more importance in situations that can be seen as 'fights'. I use the terms fights in a similar manner as found on Marc MacYoungs site. In fact on this issue from Mr. MacYoung:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/tough.html#toughman

From my own personal experiences in situations where I was fearful for my life/safety I definitely found this to be true. During the moment I found myself with far more 'endurance' than I needed...I kept myself as safe as possible and got the heck out of dodge. Once I was free it caught up with me and I thought I was going to pass out, but my body gave me what it needed at the time. I would like to add that most of the true violent situations I have encountered were also BEFORE I ever studied martial arts.

So sure...being in shape can certainly help you...it is certainly important for your health and so forth. Is it required to survive an attack on your safety/life? I don't believe so. If it were folks with handicaps, physical limitations, etc would have no hope of defending themselves...and that is simply not the case.

[Kamiyama]

"Do you need to be in good physical shape for Taijutsu?"

This is a very vague question.

No. This would be my answer to this question.

But if we are talking about the out-line, juhacimon, as a professional trainer or a full time warrior student, yes. Yes would be my answer.

Now if I was asked how I keep up with my 21 year old girl friend I would say fitness.

Now if I were asked how do I swing a sword or bo around so effortless I would say fitness.

Now if you asked if I could keep up with a boxer in the ring with rules and gloves I would so no I could not.

Now if you asked if I can put on my pack and walk a few miles I would say yes. And then asked why I can I would say fitness. It weights around 70 pounds when it's light.

Now if you asked if I could stay awake on a watch detail for a night I would say I'm not sure becuase I haven't trained for that lately.

But more or less I would have to say or repeat a few things a few of you have said.. ninjutsu to many is a play game.. computer warriors and more or less some of the weakest and futile combatives I've seen.

Having excuses of why you do not have any level of fitness and - then putting down people enjoy running, weight lifting, sparring, or any other type fitness is funny.

kamiyama, ralph severe

[Kamiyama]

learn proper taijutsu...

Jeff,
I have been training for a while.. and I'm not sure what this statement means.."learn proper taijutsu"....

It was used in the early 80's throughout the early 90's...
It was mainly used by those who really didn't have a clue or wanted to sell the idea that they had the answers to taijutsu.. or they were right and you were wrong.. or they were the key and you were lost without them..

I've never understood this statement.. and we are all different in body, heart and mind..

I've trained many human beings in taijutsu... standing and ground.. and many times between standing and ground...

How can we have an understanding what this means?

kamiyama, ralph severe

[ninjaman]

I am somewhat supple and somewhat strong, altough I´m not weightlifting. I find that I get tensed by doing this (even if I stretch) and that hinders my taijutsu.

I don´t run or do aerobics, but that wouldn´t hurt a bit if I did! Being in a general good condition is beneficial to the training, I think. Soke goes for walks every day and that seems like a good idea. Moderation might be a good thing - not leaning to much in either direction. Not to much muscles, but not to weak either.

I strive more for the Feldenkrais approach: that your body is agile like a childs, supple and loose, strong and with stamina. A natural, tensionless body that can move in all directions with ease and that can adopt to the situation.

And Ralph ;-)

"Now if I were asked how do I swing a sword or bo around so effortless I would say fitness."

Wouldn´t you say that it´s your taijutsu that´s moving the weapons rather than your fitness? No muscles, using the skeleton, the spine - just keep on walking...

Johan Grönwall

[ChrisMoon]

I am fairly new to the Bujinkan and so my question is a bit different. Can you be too big and strong for budo taijutsu?
In my past I was a college football player and a decathlete and now I lift weights and train at the gym 6 days a week sometimes doing two a days. I am very flexible and can prety much do what I want physically but can muscularity be a hindrance?

[Oni]

Originally posted by ChrisMoon
I am fairly new to the Bujinkan and so my question is a bit different. Can you be too big and strong for budo taijutsu?
In my past I was a college football player and a decathlete and now I lift weights and train at the gym 6 days a week sometimes doing two a days. I am very flexible and can prety much do what I want physically but can muscularity be a hindrance?

My opinion is that the only hinderance it may offer is that you will be tempted to muscle things in ways that you really do not need to. If you are fairly flexible the muscle mass should not hinder you in any other respect I can think of.

[Miuki]

Acknowledgement: I like Ninjaman's philosophy the best.

Being a newbie, I'm sure this has been covered before, my apologies, however...

Of what use is physical conditioning of any sort without appropriate 'mental conditioning' and/or development? I'm sure even Lennox or Mike would be taken back if they tried to steal a meek, mild, little old granny's wallet and she suddenly jumps up screaming, tearing his eyes from his sockets, popping his crucial ligament and imploding his nuts. In my limited experience I've found overtly 'tough' guys (especially those who talk tough) to be a little unstable, and quite often not very reliable under duress.

I hope that equals A$0.02.

[Kamiyama]

**I am somewhat supple and somewhat strong, altough I´m not weightlifting. I find that I get tensed by doing this (even if I stretch) and that hinders my taijutsu.

Kamiyama, I would say weight lifting is wonderful but I would balance it with circular strength like clubbells and kettlebells too. I’ve found in the past 5 months of doing this my over all flexibility and strength has improved a great deal. Also joint movement in circles is a must for creating a surface for taking and giving hits.

**Can you be too big and strong for budo taijutsu?

Kamiyama, totally. Any Japanese art of body motion is called taijutsu. I'm 320 pounds and can move as well as anyone I've seen half my size with the speed of a light weight. It's all in your training methodology.

** I am very flexible and can prety much do what I want physically but can muscularity be a hindrance?

Kamiyama, any improper training methodology can be unhealthy for your living conditions as well as your combative skills.

kamiyama, ralph severe

[Kamiyama]

OK.

resist force.... I do not live in a fantasy world. At times I would say you need to resits force with force.

For example, if I would need to life my body off the ground and over a wall I would need upper body and lower body power to get over it.

If I had to pull myself up over a wall the same would be true too.

If I had a friend under a heavy log in the woods I would have to life it to help him recover from being under this heavy log.

To hold and shoot my FAL, 9.8 pounds, from a running then stop to a standing posture, shooting at say 50 yeards at a 5x8 inch target I have to have upper body strenght. Or the sights will go all over the place. And I have to have fitness so my breathing will be controlled too.

Say a house was on fire and I had to smash through a door or a wall.. this takes power.

We both could go on and on.. where would it get us?

Fitness is a plus my friends.. in life as well as a students of bujutsu.

kamiyama, ralph severe

[william northcote]

Do you really have to meet force with force? Can you not redirect it into another way to take the force away to make it your advantage?

Everyone is saying meet power with power, but is not taijutsu also about redirecting power to take the agressor from being bully to "what the f**k happened?"

[Karyu]

"Yes! A real fight is 90% physical condition and 10% technique. If you are unfit you will tire in a few seconds. Look how strong and fit boxers are."


If you're good enough, it'll be over in a few seconds.

[Kamiyama]

**Do you really have to meet force with force?

Kamiyama, no. But what would you do if you had to and didn’t have the energy or methods or even the strength to use force against force? I believe you need to read my post once again about natural things out side combative conflicts. To break a bone or tear off a ear or finger might take a little grip power or the strength to do so physically.

**Can you not redirect it into another way to take the force away to make it your advantage?

Kamiyama, yes I can. But at times I’m caught off guard, tired, been hit, unbalanced, over powered, etc. I believe you need to go to more seminars, taikai and classes and see if this can be done. And if so try this outside the rules or respectful manner these places allow you to be masterful. What some call going to the post, aliveness, sparring, no holds barred…..

**If you're good enough, it'll be over in a few seconds.

Kamiyama, I believe ninjutsu is not based on how good you are or how poor you are at the skills but rather if you can avoid these conflicts altogether.
But how good is the question isn’t it?

I believe with these types of post the video exchange is very important here to the members of e-budo.
To cut through the BS and get to the point we al, would like to get at. Truth.

Why not join us in this exchange ??????

Why not show us your point of view ???

If you're not good at ground skills then by all means do one on any skill you are good at.. this would stop the procrastination... I'm finding is the breaking up of this exchange..

ok

kamiyama, ralph severe

[Dave Pawson]

Kamiyama, yes I can. But at times I’m caught off guard, tired, been hit, unbalanced, over powered, etc. I believe you need to go to more seminars, taikai and classes and see if this can be done. And if so try this outside the rules or respectful manner these places allow you to be masterful. What some call going to the post, aliveness, sparring, no holds barred…..

You raise an interesting point, I would see this as Sensory Deprovation training, can you in the heat of a fight retain enough of your senses to survive. Strengh will not help in mostr cases IMHO, but endurance will. Training drills we do include tying hands to the side to simulate loosing the use of an arm, in a controlled Dojo environment it is relatively easy, however when the pace picks up then it gets interesting:p

It is a sense of reality check, personally I teach Tai-Jutsu in the manner of the Bujinkan as I have been taught, but I also encourage students to pick the pace up to see if they can use what they are being taught in a faster environment. Even just upping the intensity level of a punch has some interesting results sometimes:D

[Marc Coppens]

Dear all,

Interesting discussion here.

I went to a seminar in Japan with Tanemura sensei and Sato Kinbei sensei back in 1992.

Sato Kinbei sensei looked so frail but none of us thought it would be easy to win from him in a fight. He did some waza on us and I can assure you that it hurt like hell. He was so perfect in what he did. So it all comes down on many years of serious training.

I am convinced that strategy stands above technique and that the use of musclepower comes last. Above all I think that a strong spirit is the most important and complete control of your emotions (mushin and fudoshin).

I am also convinced that you have to be in good shape and that you need basic musclepower. You don't have to overdo it of course.


I train in the Genbukan since 1987 and only now I am able to do some of the waza without real effort (against an oponent who is not "playing" along).

As a police officer I had my share of violence and the use of force so I can say that you need stamina and muscle power to support your tehniques. You need these things as back-up.

It takes many many years to achieve a level like that of the grandmasters. In the meantime all the rest can be helpfull especially when you are in a line of work where violence will be directed at you or when you live eg. in rough neighborhood. But this is true for everybody who is training to defend themselves and not for playing.

To quote Tanemura sensei : "The first ten years of training are so so, the next ten years everything becomes better, the next ten years "miracle" techniques apear."

Sincerely yours and best regards to Dave Pawson and his family.

[Dave Pawson]

Hi Marc

I remember as well the seminar in Leeds with Tanemura Sensei and how little effort and muscle were applied to apply pain in training;)

Technique is what we should all be striving for, I love the look on someones face who is highly muscled when correct technique / Spirit is employed and they are left wondering why they are in pain on the floor:D

Really good thread.

Speak soon Marc

[shinbushi]

I agree with Rick, Training alive does teach you that :D I think for taijutsu training (Not the actual waza) you need to have a base line of fitness. I don’t mean looking good. Too many people ‘workout’ to look good. Many bodybuilders look good but are not fit. I mean having good strength to body weight ratio, stamina, cardio and flexibility. The more fit you are the harder you can train, the less injured you get and the faster you recover. I think great work outs are Power or Heat types of yoga (http://www.taijutsu.com/curriculum.htm) (Strength and cardio), pilates (strength and stamina) jump rope (cardio and light footwork), just to name some.