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shisochin#1
16th March 2003, 01:14
I recently attended a (Traditional) karate tournament in Georgia and I noticed something that kind of bothered me . I have seen several teenagers 13-18 running kata such as Unshu , Gojushiho , and others but what really got me was i saw a 14 yr old preforming the kata Kururunfa . Now in the art that I study that is a very advance kata (5th dan) I belive .

So here is the question . At what age should someone be taught these advance kata ? In my opinion there is a maturity level that one must reach before learning such kata as Kururunfa , Gojushiho and others. Just wondering if im off on my opinion.

Rob Alvelais
16th March 2003, 01:49
The question isn't the age of the competitor, but his skill level.
Somone 13 or 14 could have been practicing for 9 years, and would be in the advanced division, so an advanced kata would naturally seem appropriate for that division.

The question is, how well did they perform the kata?

Were the judges idiots, and gave a higher score than the performance merited, because it was an advanced kata? Or, were the judges sensible and gave scores appropriate for the performance, and not the kata chosen?

In a kata competion, you judge the kata on the merits of its performance. You don't give slack for a crumby Unsu, just because it's an advanced kata.

Rob

shisochin#1
16th March 2003, 12:34
I understand your point however in most traditional styles there is an age requirment on rank after nidan . I can not see a 12 , 13 , or even an 18 year old as a 4th or 5th dan . I just dont belive a teen ager has the maturety level to understand these kata.

The other thing I have noticed is when there is a tie you have to prefor another kata . In this case about 60 percent of people I have seen have not been able to preform the second kata correctly . So does this mean that they practice that one tournament kata all year and neglect the others ? Just another question to add to the thread.

Rob Alvelais
16th March 2003, 14:54
I'm sure at the lower level competitions, that you indeed see the sort of thing that you mention. I've seen some kids at the USANKF and USAKF meets that could perform some pretty mean Suparinpei or Unsu, for example. And, they had some backup kata, too. Age isn't really the determiner, it's really ability.

Now these kids, that I mention are indeed the cream of the crop, and by definition are pretty few and far between. But isn't it that way with adults too? One's ability to perform adequately any kata is determined more by one's ability than one's age.

BTW, what's a nidan or godan kata? I'm also Shito Ryu, and we typically divide our kata between basic and advanced. We have a load of kata, as you know, and we have our kata required for exams, and supplemental kata. Most people have their plates full with just the kata required for grading, so the issue of teaching an Shodan suparinpei just doesn't come up, unless it's appropriate for his competition career. (Some competitions have a mandatory list of kata that must be performed in the competition.) The whole dan thing was a recent development in the grand scheme of things, so these sorts of things can be fairly arbitrary.

Rob

Gene Williams
16th March 2003, 16:12
Hi Rob. Let me add some clarification. In our organization of Motobu-ha Shito-ryu, we do have the basic and advanced kata organized as requirements for different ranks. Yes, it is somewhat arbitrary ( I mean, it does not really make that much difference whether you require Bassai Dai at shodan and Rohai at nidan or vice versa). I would want to arge, however, that kata like Suparimpei, Unshu, Gojushiho, Kururunpha, and Seipei are considerably more complex and require a more subtle understanding of the techniques in the kata. I believe they also require quite a well developed karate spirit ( I don't mean tournament spirit) to be properly understood and performed. Really, by the time many of us get to the point where we feel like some of the above mentioned kata are finally "part of us", we have lost all interest in tournament competition and are out on the solitary way. We have a requirement of 16 years old for shodan. Before then, we give junior black belt. I do not believe that students should be taught very advanced kata simply for tournament purposes. If they are that good, they can put over Jion, Bassai Dai, or Kosokun Dai and beat their peers who are doing Gojushiho, etc. if the judges have any sense and are not simply wowed by the names of the kata and what they think are "fancy" moves. Kuniba Sensei helped us arrange the order of our kata, and he placed these "more advanced" kata in the yondan and up range. Again, I know it is somewhat arbitrary, but it does make sense. Kids are cute, and many have a lot of natural ability. They need to develop it by running the Pinan, Naihonchi, Bassai Dai, and Kosokun Dai. I quit going to tournaments years ago because I decided that they teach bad habits. Scoring points does not equal good technique, focus, and power, and doing kata in competition teaches people to play to the judges and the crowd, not themselves. And, yes, I have a room full of trophies. They are gathering dust in a closet. Thanks or listening. I enjoy your posts. Gene

CEB
17th March 2003, 17:33
A 13 year old doing Suparunpei is something that seems really really wrong to me. Especially when considering at age 13 the child is too young to be allowed to DO kata Sanchin.

Victor
18th March 2003, 10:49
The issue of when youth study "advanced" kata isn't a new one.

I remember an old issue of Official Karate that had a young man (about 13) from NY or NJ demonstrating Seipai in detail (Buried in my magazine section somewhere) and that was from the 70's. I also recall in tournaments back in those days all sorts of competitors (young and old) doing kata out of 'standards'.

And for Supreimpe, instructors like Chinnen Sensei have been interviewed considering it a basic kata that should be taught after Sanchin. So Okinawan Sensei all didn't follow the same belief either.

The issue of when in training to teach a kata (physical performance) is rather meaningless. If somebody can do it, it's obvious they're ready for it. For youth it is a function of kids training 4 an 5 days a week for many years, instructors have to show them something new to keep them paying, and in youth competition they have much pressure to perform the advanced kata to beat the others (no difference for any age really).

Now the issue, should an instructor do so. Hmmm, it's evident there are no fast rules. I've been training youth for 25 years, but because my program is part time (twice a week) I have no reason to press a student into the advanced kata before they grow into them. But the next guy, with different traditions, follows a different drummer.

And then when the instructors own children are involved. I remember Hidy Ochiai's children doing Kata none of his adults in his system were doing. Obviously they were getting different instruction because of dad.

Locally, there is a Shorin/Goju school that has 16 year old 6th degree junior black belts (that retest for Ni Dan at 18). There is a very wide degree of people training out there.

And regardless of their age, I've seen 13 year olds performing kata that oldsters can't touch, technically.

Good or bad, it is happening.

CEB
18th March 2003, 18:33
Chinen Sensei doesn't teach Pechurin after Sanchin. I've never seen him teach it to any kyu students. He is quite fond of referring to the kata as 'Geka Sai Dai San' in reference to his opinion that the form is relatively basic. I would agree if it wasn't for the damn Mai Tobi Geri. Very difficult technique to do well.

Your points are well taken. Just wanted to confirm that there is a definite basis for what you read in the interview.

Take Care

Victor
19th March 2003, 04:15
Hi Ed,

I understand your comment about the Mai Tobi Geri, but then again you're not 12 either (ROTFLOL).

Ponder this, have you ever seen the 13 year old girls doing Wu Shu?

I doubt there are any male karate-ka that could begin to duplicate what I've seen them do..hmmmmm.

Perhaps the answer is the advanced kata should only be taught to the very young (Believe me writtin in gentle jest <GRIN>)

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Gene Williams
31st March 2003, 04:29
Victor, You seem to be focusing on tournament type performance. The Wushu stuff I have seen has a lot of acrobatics. I don't think being able to do a split has any combat value. The fact is, kids haven't developed the spirit and understanding that comes with years of training and so can only render the kata with energy and speed and the wonderful intensity of youth. Even with picture perfect form, it isn't the same as when a true senior in the art does it. I still balk at teaching the more involved kata to the very young. I have taught many kids; I never lost any because they were bored. Gene

Markaso
31st March 2003, 08:49
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
The question isn't the age of the competitor, but his skill level.


The question is, how well did they perform the kata?

In a kata competion, you judge the kata on the merits of its performance. You don't give slack for a crumby Unsu, just because it's an advanced kata.

Rob

Good point indeed Mr. Alvelais

In the Dojo that I train at there is a 6th grader doing Suupariinpei Kata and does an okay job. But I do not think I would give him high marks if judging ............ something missing.

Victor
31st March 2003, 12:09
Gene,

I wasn't really referring to tournament style practice as I've discontinued tournaments the past 15 years, but I understand how you might construe my point that way.

You suggest: "The fact is, kids haven't developed the spirit and understanding that comes with years of training and so can only render the kata with energy and speed and the wonderful intensity of youth. Even with picture perfect form, it isn't the same as when a true senior in the art does it."

Well many adults don't have that either. And truthfully I've seen many times many seniors who aren't that good either. The number that develop their technique like say Hiagonna Morio are very few indeed. So does that mean most shouldn't be doing advanced forms?

[Disclaimer my use of a Goju example isn't favoritism of that system, I can pick examples from others, as readily.]

Perhaps my point begins in the roots of Isshinryu where the system was taught originally in 16 or so months. But I've never seen what people learn the issue, rather if they keep doing it for decades.

Those kids in decades become pretty good seniors if they are taught properly. And in my order of events, as I only permit any youth to train part time it normally takes 7 to 9 years to reach sho-dan.

Training both youth and adult I really find very little differece between them, except the youth tend to have greater physical potential.

But we all have different experiences I guess.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Gene Williams
31st March 2003, 12:45
Hi Victor, I agree with everything you say:) A lot of adults never really develop their karate, some are promoted when they should not be and, yes, kids who start early and stay with it make great martial artists. I will not take a student under 12 years old...never have. I guess we just have a philosophical difference about a couple of things. Thanks, Gene

Victor
31st March 2003, 18:28
Hi Gene,

I've been training young people through the Boys and Girls Clubs for 25 years at this point.

They begin at ages 7-21, but at the pace they study with 7 to 9 years to reach sho-dan I've never had anyone under 17 reach that rank yet. By the time they get to that point they have developed quite a bit of focus and technique in the process. But that groups been getting younger for years and it's not impossible that the age of those reaching Shodan may drop to 16 before long.

I've found it a rewarding chance for community service as I teach two youth classes a week for free, and in return have a place for my adult program (currently 10 dans who've been training about 15 years and 1 brown belt).

Every persons program has its own guidelines when student should enter their program. And that is right as the instructor must be comfortable with the group they're teaching.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Gene Williams
31st March 2003, 20:33
Hi Sounds like we are in similar situations. I've taught since 1978. I used to teach free classes at the rec center. My senior group, which has always been at my dojo, is now 7 dans (sandan to godan) one ikkyu, and one yonkyu. Talk about top heavy with rank! I have become too comfortable with that group and need to advertise for new students or do something to get back in front of beginners. Gene

Victor
31st March 2003, 20:56
Hi Gene,

Yes we do sound somewhat similar.

As for beginners I take new students in the youth program twice a year and that gives me all the 'practice' I need <GRIN>.

For the adults, the program is so private anybody has to really search to find it. I average about one new beginner every 3 or 4 years, and you know how it goes from there.

Having a mature program (in more than one way) does give a different perspective about the art.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

CEB
3rd April 2003, 16:48
The order the Goju kata are presented seems really arbitary to me. The order and the way they are taught to you depends on who your teacher is.

Kururunfa for example does not seem that complex too me. The techniques seem straight forward it isn't all that long and the embusen is somewhat symetrical. I don't see what the huge whoop is, unless you want to do it as well as Chinen Sensei, Then good luck and a lot of hard work are probably in order. Well there was this Kururunfa I saw done by a Canadian fellow who I think does some form of Goju Ryu. This was at the Tribute to Matayoshi Shinpo in Naha after he died. This Kururunfa looked more complex and very different. I have no explanation for that one.

In terms of performance I have always thought that Saifa and Sanseiru were the two most difficult forms in the syllabus.

Seipai was the most difficult kata for me to learn the pattern for. Sepai seems to require a certain grace and fluidity in movment that is forgein to me. Also it has a lot of unusual hand techniques. It is really different from the the others. Seipai was actually the last Goju kata I learned the pattern for (not counting the forms I have been shown from Toguchi/Higa lines). It was not the last one I was shown, I was just really slow at getting Sepai down. In our tribe Sepai is supposed to be taught before Seisan and Kururunfa and Suparunpei but I feel Sepai is harder to learn then all of those more advanced forms.

Saifa is the first Kaishu kata we teach. It is the shortest and probably the easiest one to present the moves from but it is very difficult to do properly IMO. If I am remebering correctly I believe Kawakami Sensei said back in the mid or late 80's that they taught Saifa at Ni Dan. We present it at Green belt.

The next to last kata we have in our rank requirements in our particular tribe is Seisan. I always thought Seisan was comparitively straight forward I've been told other Goju people teach it at Green belt level. I personally teach it after Shisochin.

We teach Shisochin after Sanseiru but I find Shisochin a much easier form, (that may depend on how adept you are at shifting your body and twisting you hips.) I think it is probably the easiest of our kaishu kata.

But then again for me personally I have always thought the my Saifa and my Sanseiru sucked and I have always felt my Seiunchin and Shisochin were pretty good. But last summer when I was with Sensei in Tulsa he really praised my Saifa and Sanseiru and torn my Seiunchin too shreds. Oh well what do I know, maybe it came from how I practice my weakies more than my good ones or else I am simply mistaken concerning my understanding of the true nature of the force.

May the force be with you always.

CEB
3rd April 2003, 23:23
Thanks Kenzo,

Another gentleman that saw the form was conjecturing to me whether or not the form was a DW variant or not.

So it is a Kururunfa as it would have been practiced if it had came from Tomari villiage?:confused:

Hank Irwin
5th April 2003, 18:39
The commercial evolution of MA's has been at hand since the early 70's. I am in disagreement with starting kids too early in life. I started teaching my daughter when she was about 10. Her beginnings are gymnastics age 5-9,tegumi age 9-present, more gymnastics 11-13, then my jubi-undo,hojo-undo(from Okinawan Shorinji)and atemi waza from kata. I started teaching her kata at 14. She will be 21 in Oct. I have always expressed restraint to her when it comes down to using what I taught her. I have never stressed competition to her. She knows only combat applications. So many times in my 47 years have I seen "tikes" fighting at tourneys. They absorb kata to perfection, so,they also take a beating, pads or not in kumite. Some cry, while their parents threaten punishment if they lose. This is unacceptable. These same "tikes" are the one's that will turn into bullies unless steered the right way. All kids should know how to protect themselves, but remember, they take their life lessons from their Teachers and their peers, and finally the streets. I have had many a parent come to me with adolescents that I turn away, mainly because all they really want is a babysitter. Hell, even football will cause damage, it's an accepted World Wide sport though. No matter what we do, Karate will never be a sport. How can you take killing principles and make a sport out of it? You can't. You can turn it into a game though, with all the glorious window dressing too. For the most part, what we see today is not real MA's. We Americans did just like the Japanese did with MA's, missed the point.

CEB
5th April 2003, 20:35
What is the point?

Hank Irwin
6th April 2003, 02:01
The point I guess is self preservation. How do you teach a 5 year old that? You don't. You let them be kids. Too much ego is being involved when it comes to exposing our children to competition. Most parents are vicariously living through their kids, sad but true. Competition breeds ego, you can not get away from that, and in this day and age, competition levels are at their highest, no matter the subject matter. What do you want for your kids? Traditional values or corporate thinking? Do you want them to be success oriented or frugal in their approach to life? Step at a time I think.:D

Gene Williams
6th April 2003, 03:38
Thanks, Hank. Hear, Hear! Gene

CEB
6th April 2003, 17:21
Thanks for sharing you thoughts.

I don't know what the point is. The point seemed to me when I first started at the age of 10 years old was that I had a brother who was 24 and a Black belt who had just came home from the army. He was big, strong and was really really cool. I wanted to be like him. He let me in the dojo. I was more mascot than Karate-ka but I did learn basics, Heian kata and Tekki Shodan and how to take a hit.

Later I became a musician and my interest grew in the area of self preservation. In my later teens I was playing music in places I probably should not have been. As I got older I gained interest in restraint and control techniques. When I was in my 20's I was playing a lot of high school dances and I wanted to be prepared to deal with the possibility of a teenage boy who was out of hand. Breaking a man's neck or beating him to death may be cool if you are on the battlefield of Iraq but not worth a damn if you are in a civil defense situation with a minor. So my interest in reatraint and control grew where before I viewed self defense primarily as something that was carried out with extreme predudice.

Later probably in my late 20's early 30's I just wanted to develop a deeper understanding of my art, just because. I felt pretty secure and seemed to have outgrown my paranonia concerning street preparedness. I had been doing MAs for this long so I might as well learn as much as I can about it.

Now I do karate i guess mostly for health reasons. I consider karate a health activity. Personally I'm not too concerned with self preservation anymore. If I were I think I would probably feel like I was being very paraniod. I can't help but think there is a impracticality issue regarding MA and self-defense. An example is I love kobudo but I don't see a whole lot of practicality of its study (though I am quite fond of Chizikunbo). A situation that is going to threaten me will not be solved by my knowledge of NiChoGama. I never seem to have them when I need them and they would seem to have a pretty high failure rate in a gun fight.

I guess my view may be that Karate is a set of disciplines. It is a means to some end and that end is determined by whoever the particular practitioner is. This is the same impression I get from Miyagi Sendai's Historical Outline of Karate-do when he describes karate as a an art where we exercise mind and body for health promotion in daily life, but in case of emergency it is an art of self defense.

I don't what the point is. Older I get it seems the less I know. That is why I guess I like to come to e-budo. The people on e-budo have a lot more answers than I do these days. It is a place of learning and sharing. So many different people with so many different motivations all doing the same basic things, but all for completely different reasons.

I do find it interesting that through all the changes in my motivation for my practice of karate and through all my different reasons for doing karate how constant and relatively unchanged the study methods have remained.

Thanks everyone for your insight and have a good week.

Goju Man
7th April 2003, 23:05
Ed, I follow some of what you are saying. For instance, you wpuld think I'm crazy for teaching Goju to my Godson. The fact is I love the ART. It's sort of like the hunters using black powder, bows, and the such in different seasons. Would you like to have a gunfight against a person with a mac 10 or ar 15 and you with a muzzle loader? Actually, I wouldn't want to be in one, period, but it is just a way of getting a point across. Sure, a muzzle loader can kill an unsuspecting animal, but don't go to war with it.

Machimura
11th April 2003, 12:56
Ed and Manny make very good points. Intent is in the eye of the beholder. That gun analogy was kinda' weak though. How will sport oriented grappling/striking techniques protect you from getting knifed in the kidney or liver vs. techniques meant to overwhelm your opponent in a decisive way? Quick like. Chess is for the mat not real life. Combat sports don't teach you real world self-defense, except maybe Judo and BJJ to some degree.

I think you can convey karate's real message by slowly building up to true intent. I started karate when I was 14. I'm 30+ now. I got into it because the classes I observed looked challenging and hardcore, and I really liked the sparring aspect of it! I despised kata, and thought it was useless. When I broke 18 years of age I had to protect my arse for reals, and the lessons I learned in self-defense techs, one step sparring, and most of all kata, seemed to surface when the shite hit the fan. The controlled atmosphere of kumite, was NOTHING like sparring.

My sensei then, use to say you should never fight. Never. If he hits you, talk your way out of it or run away. I thought he was silly. When I had to fight for real I finally understood what he meant. Karate was not meant for restraint. In fact I think that if you are trained in the Okinawan way, it will be an impossibility. Even one solid jab (or backfist) to the nose has much more devastating consequences on the street, than does a collection of jabs to the face in a boxing match. Forget a myriad of blows from varying angles, sans padding. Different feeling,injury, everything.

If you are taught correctly you can get all those things you guys were talking about. Physical fitness ( IMHO- nowadays gyms are actually better for this), direction, mind/body balance, self-preservation can be attained with good MAs practice. Traditonally the essence of this is in kata; some in supplementary training beyond sparring. Sparring is a false confidence booster, unless you are training for simulated fighting. C'mon now. There is a certain point that a person can be pushed to before retaliation occurs. The number of unknown quantities in competition inspired martial sport is greatly limited. Built up tension, swallowed pride and the threat of serious bodily harm will unleash the beast in a trained fighter, especially a well schooled karate-ka. Kata teaches us the subtle art of focus and imperturbability. Focus+adrenalin+karate=structured chaos. You can't train 100% for the adrenal dump of fighting someone who wants to kill you on the street. You CAN train for the other 2 variables. Kata is valuable and it works. At least it has for me and the folks I've trained with.

You also can't say that self-preservation comes from the art of control. "Relaxing" requires little control. "Letting go" and flowing, you being the primal you, is not a lesson learned in sparring. "Know thyself" is a important lesson learned in forms training. Forget knowing your opponent. That can't be forseen. "You do you" and everything will be "all good". Period.

It's all good, but how well is it? :)

Kata at any age will help, not hinder. Kids will become strong adults and then the techs from training in kata (vs. the other aspects of karate) will become real, not fancified, boring movements. At least in my limited opinion. Depth is entailed in forms training. Some like the straight-forward external approach of combat sports like Muay Thai, boxing or wrestling. Some folks need to learn that way. That's just based on their capacity to learn soemthing as it was meant to be. Most folks are none-too-swift.

Remember, in the long run there are no short cuts, and brainpower is the final factor (or proper/maximal use thereof). Time is the greatest teacher. This "hurry-up-quick-fast-now" attitude lacks any substance or intellect. ADHD and stupidity does seem to be rampant, even in adults, hahaha! Well everyone can't grasp everything, but you can give them a chance before they take the "hard" route. Trust YOUR own judgement and experience, as well as the knowledge of those who came before you. Don't believe the hype. Peace...

Bryan Cyr

Cody
11th April 2003, 13:55
Originally posted by Machimura
"Relaxing" requires little control. "Letting go" and flowing, you being the primal you, is not a lesson learned in sparring. "Know thyself" is a important lesson learned in forms training. Forget knowing your opponent. That can't be forseen. "You do you" and everything will be "all good". Period.

It's all good, but how well is it? :)
ame before you. Don't believe the hype. Peace...


Hello Mr. Bryan,

I am a beginner in karate. I hold 4th kyu in dojo where main focus is on sparring. In fact, my instructor doesn't teach any kata, although he sends me to study kobudo and karate kata with another kyoshi to augment my training.

I understand you have a lot more experiences in the arts than I, and I hope I am not coming across as disrespectful... but, I would like to clearify a few points you made to make sure I understand you correctly.

"Letting go and flowing, you being the primal you, is not a lesson learned in sparring"

Are you suggesting sparring cannot teach you these things? To be more precise... are you saying it's something that can only be achieved through kata practice?

I understand what we learn from karate is suppose to manifest themselves in our every actions, and not just in the dojo. I see fighting as medium through which we learn to train our body, mind and spirits. However... being a MARTIAL art, I still think fighting ability is an important aspect in karate. To be precise, I think being able to fight calmly, with flowing movement, without being all tensed up, and being your primal self, is very important. I like to think that's mushin.

I sure hope those qualities can be achieved through sparring - fighting. Surely if you practice sparring enough - if you engage in enough fights, you can just let your body response without concious thoughts, just let your techniques flow, and stay calm?


Another point... actually a disagreement...."Forget knowing your opponent"... I will beg to differ. Even if you know you, if your opponent knows you and he knows himself, and he decides to engage you in a fight... I am pretty sure you are going to lose. I know from experience. I also know it from experiences of seniors in my dojo.

Sorry for being mouthy, no disrespects intended. I just wanted to post my viewpoints as a beginner :p

-Cody

Sochin
11th April 2003, 15:35
Our sensei Richard Kim always said that in kata you could visualise killing your opponent and practice the adrenal intent of killing but you couln't do that in sparring because your intent would change our tactics and your opponent would respond and you would be fighting, not sparring.

Sparring is not fighting.

Fighting strangers is fraught with danger - know your opponent means to choose your enemy, the time and the place, not to just rush in and blow off steam at someone. This too is closer to the kata attitude for me than is sparring.

CEB
11th April 2003, 16:22
Originally posted by Cody


...
Another point... actually a disagreement...."Forget knowing your opponent"... I will beg to differ. Even if you know you, if your opponent knows you and he knows himself, and he decides to engage you in a fight... I am pretty sure you are going to lose. I know from experience. I also know it from experiences of seniors in my dojo.

...

-Cody

You paraphase Sun Tzu who said something to the effect of 'Know your enemy and know yourself and in 1000 battles you will always be victorious'. This is true but in all fairness to Bryan, you do not know who your enemy will be. You have no control over that but you do have control over you so you concentrate on the development of you. Your enemy will not know you, I hope. If he does you are hanging with the wrong people. Sometimes this happens though, but I would try not to make it a habit of putting yourself in a position where your combative skills can be analyzed by evil people who would use that knowledge to do you harm. Choose your friends wisely.

Last night we discussed importance of primal instincts in a self protection situations. Attitude is everything. We dealt with knife defenses last night. I'll try to paraphrase some major points from Officer Johnson's class.

1)In a self defense situation the body chooses a fight or flight response.

2)Most deaths from knife wounds occur becasue people decide to give up and die. Organ damage and serious loss of blood can cause death but this usually takes sometime.

3)Many people die from shock. The key element of people going into shock is mental attutude. A cause of shock is when the body has chosen the flight response but are unable to escape. The brain realizes you are injured and just prtty much gives up.

4) Attitude is the most important factor to survival.


We also covered the effects of adrenalin. Adrenalin can be your friend but fine motor skills tend to go out the window when pumped on adrenalin. Not good if you need to 'light up' multiple kyusho point in the exact cycle of destruction sequence. KISS is good.

Can attitude be culitvated through sparring? I doubt it. Can attitude be culitvated through karate training period? What is needed is a training environment that requires you to have to function through a high level of stress. The key in preparation for a fight situation I believe is training yourself to function through high pressure and stress. I see very little stress in most karate dojo these days.

Have a good weekend.

Gene Williams
11th April 2003, 18:37
ED, Good post. Now, you caused me stress a while back when you mentioned a "Tomari version" of Kururunpha. I thought I was losing my mind...hey, there is no Tomari version of Kururunpha. It is Naha all the way. Some one may have messed with it and called it that, but ain't no such animal. I'll bet my Kururunpha and your Kururunpha, and several other Goju/Shito guys' Kururunpha look about the same. Whoever you saw doing it and calling it that was home cooking. Gene

Cody
11th April 2003, 18:45
Originally posted by CEB


Can attitude be culitvated through sparring? I doubt it. Can attitude be culitvated through karate training period? What is needed is a training environment that requires you to have to function through a high level of stress. The key in preparation for a fight situation I believe is training yourself to function through high pressure and stress. I see very little stress in most karate dojo these days.

Have a good weekend.

Again I mean no disrespect, just being the argumentative and not-yet-humble beginner...

I agree you cannot always know who your opponents are. The point I was trying to make is that if that's an option, you should make an effort to find out. That's part of the battle. (but that's just my opinion) But your point is well taken.

And about sparring isn't stressful... may I suggest you might be a little too hasty to make that judgement? I've broken a collar bone and dislocated shoulder during sparring; seniors from my dojo have broken ribs, briused lungs, broke cheek bone, dislocated jaw, tore ligament on knee, broken arm, ruptured disc on back... from our sparring/ randori practice/ tournaments.

And, in winter, Feburary to be precise, in Canada, we go find a waterfall and spar under the water.
Whenever it snows, we have to take off our gi top and shuttle run outside for about an hour. And right after that, we spar. At that points, my forearms and hands/ fingers are generally blue to bright red in color (depends on the state of defrost), and making a fist is a major challenge. So sparring isn't exactly a walk in the park.
Then comes summer, during "warm up" (shuttle running again), shihan closes all the windows and doors and crank up the heat to max... I felt like I would suffocate any minute, and under such conditions we are to spar...

And during one of shihan's special tournament training which started at noon, I as a white belt broke down and started crying at around 4:00pm, I was made to spar and go through other conditions WHILE choking in tears all the way until 7:00pm, when we were finally dismissed.

I would call that stressful condition. But then I've never been on the street, and I imagine what I experience in dojo is nothing like what I will see on the street, but, maybe it's a little harsh to disregard sparring training as incapable of cultivating mental toughness?

In fact, I have a little suspicion that the only reason we are put through these is to train mental toughness. Some poor kids live out in sidney, and have to get up at 5:00am to bus to our dojo. Shihan calls them at home to tell them to come when they don't show up on time. And then we will get the typical lecture, "enjoy is not training. Not like is training. Everybody is tired I understand. But sleep no come issi no good. Weak me win strong me. Mentally weak is no good". We hear that so many times I can cite it backwards in sleep.

Sorry... just feel a little unfairly accused when some of us sweat blood in the dojo to understand mental toughness... so allow me the luxury to be arrogant just this once? :p

-Cody

Hank Irwin
11th April 2003, 18:50
Gene Sensei, where in Ga. do you live? I live in Marietta. I am right now in Orlando though, doing a tradeshow event. Will be back home next week. Maybe we could get together sometime?


Life protection comes in many forms.Weaponry, I love it, even though I am of the opinion that if it can't fit in my pocket, why use is it. I still train with all of them, for the arts sake, and I love kobudo. Okinawan MA are a culture to many, like my self, and train in the old ways. Handing down the system being one of the things you do in honor of the art and the Sensei who taught you. KarateDo will allow you to be not only self-reliant, but live to a ripe old age and still be able to do so.

CEB
11th April 2003, 19:26
Thanks Gene,

In all fairness to the gentleman that performed the ‘Tomari-Te Kururunfa’ at the tribute ceremony in Naha. It is my understanding he was asked to perform it by Okinawian masters. He would have probably felt much more comfortable doing a more othrodox form. I know I would have. By the way the Okinawians loved it.

It came from somebody’s kitchen but not from the kitchen of the gentleman who did the form. It is a somewhat of a widely practiced form depending on what geographical region you hail from.

Kururunfa does strike me as being the most Tomari like form from Goju, especially the opening. I base this on the Tomari forms my boy does which are Wanshu, Ananku (there are others in the syllabus but those are the only two he has seen so far) which I think came from Kise Sensei. This is because Kururunfa is not based on the same method of boxing as the core kata of Naha Te were. ( Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru, and Pechurin.)

Have a good weekend guys.

Machimura
12th April 2003, 00:44
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cody


Hello Mr. Bryan,

I am a beginner in karate. I hold 4th kyu in dojo where main focus is on sparring. In fact, my instructor doesn't teach any kata, although he sends me to study kobudo and karate kata with another kyoshi to augment my training.

You are training to be a kickboxer and not a karate-ka. No kata? What style is this? Hard sparring is bad for your weapon- the mind/body. How will you be able to defend yourself for a lifetime with this type of injurious practice? If you continue to train like that, by the time you are 45 you will feel like your 70! Old age is our most vulnerable time. Weakness and wear-n-tear set in. Why aggravate those conditions? Your sensei is not a sensei per se he is a kickboxing trainer. Especially if he does nothing but kickboxing.

"Letting go and flowing, you being the primal you, is not a lesson learned in sparring"

Are you suggesting sparring cannot teach you these things? To be more precise... are you saying it's something that can only be achieved through kata practice?

Yes. In fact kumite teaches the opposite. It teaches stop-n-go actions. Very choppy and non-fluid. Kumite is a manifestation of karate's modernization. I guess the first cat to emphasize sparring was Miyagi Chojun. He knew that kumite was never practiced on Okinawa, but like many others (Funakoshi, Itosu, etc.) he wanted Japanese acceptance of karate. He needed to create a pseudo-litmus test for showing some of karate's "safer" principles. 2-3 strike combos will get you nowhere in a real fight. This is the "fighting" kumite instills in folks. There is a place for sparring, but beyond the intermediate level it is counterproductive. Getting acclimated to some contact is one lesson. This contact is different than getting hit with everything but the kitchen sink. 'Nawmean?

I understand what we learn from karate is suppose to manifest themselves in our every actions, and not just in the dojo. I see fighting as medium through which we learn to train our body, mind and spirits. However... being a MARTIAL art, I still think fighting ability is an important aspect in karate. To be precise, I think being able to fight calmly, with flowing movement, without being all tensed up, and being your primal self, is very important. I like to think that's mushin.

You are doing a MARTIAL SPORT not a MARTIAL ART. Art denotes some intellectual and esoteric aspects. It's not all function, because without proper form there is no function. Sparring is diluted, superficial fighting. Kata is an example of depth. Kumite comes from Judo randori and other sports, not karate. Mushin, or the state of no mind is a Japanese term. I do understand what you are trying to say though. Okinawans would emphasize just fighting and being perseverent. All the philosophical BS that goes with Japanese Budo is meant to "tame" the viciousness of toudi-jutsu (karate). Read some stuff by Funakoshi and understand where most karate nowadays comes from. INTENT is everything. When you spar and your homey breaks his finger or someone falls to the ground, "yame" or stop is usually heard. In the real world there is no stop. That is the difference. When a strong, possibly debilitating or incapacitating blow is scored, even in K1, the "fight" will usually be stopped or the fighter will get an 8 count. C'MON NOW!!!

I sure hope those qualities can be achieved through sparring - fighting. Surely if you practice sparring enough - if you engage in enough fights, you can just let your body response without concious thoughts, just let your techniques flow, and stay calm?

But you aren't fighting. You're playing rough slap tag. No bone-on-bone contact. Remember you play like you practice, or you will defend yourself like you train. Think about this, and ask your sensei if he agrees. Flow means multiple angles, with little conscious thought, a variety of strikes, throws, stomps, submissions and other potentially "deadly" techniques. Overwhelming force. Shock and awe, haha!


Another point... actually a disagreement...."Forget knowing your opponent"... I will beg to differ. Even if you know you, if your opponent knows you and he knows himself, and he decides to engage you in a fight... I am pretty sure you are going to lose. I know from experience. I also know it from experiences of seniors in my dojo.

It is obvious you only know sparring. That statement is goofy. How you gonna know Joe Mugger or Billy Club aka. Mr. Bad-A$$? Like Ted said you can't know your opponent on the street. In war you may understand your enemy, but not in street confrontation(s). Again, use your head. You are a novice, even if you feel you are not. So am I, but my reality entails some real life experiences from growing up in a "3rd World" country. If you are jumped at the club by 2 or more guys, but only train to fight mano-a-mano then how would you know how to defend yourself in this situation? Would you be like many MMAs guys/modernists and claim that defending yourself against multiple opponents is fruitless? Just run? Ridiculous. You can defend yourself in these situations, but only if you train in the traditional way. Think about kata. Hmmmm. Ah-ha! Eureka!!!

Sorry for being mouthy, no disrespects intended. I just wanted to post my viewpoints as a beginner :p

Hey you can only know what you've known. Right now sparring hard is fighting for you. I was like that when I was a teenager in a sparring intensive style (Shorinkan). I thought I knew what fighting was. That is until I started DJing at 16 in Doc's Disco on Field's Ave (Angeles City, Philippines). That's when I saw real life-or-death confrontations. Oh boy. NOTHING like "hajime" and "yame". Know that you know nothing. That way you can absorb what is useful and discard the drivel and window dressing. I felt you were totally respectful in your response. I can't hold lack of real world experience against you. All I can do is give you my perspective. I am trying to help not hinder. Trust me...;)

Oh yeah. The tenseness of sparring or free fighting ain't nothing like getting sucker punched ("stole") from an unseen angle, or tackled/grabbed from behind. The INTENT of an opponent in reality is to take you out, possibly kill you. Your sparring buddy doesn't want to maim or kill you. He wants to play a game and win. Life-or-death ain't no game. At least not since Gladiatorial times! Train, listen and learn... Kata, kata, kata!

Bryan Cyr

Gene Williams
12th April 2003, 01:01
Ed, The Okinawans are very polite, and they enjoy a show. That so-called Kururunpha may make the rounds, but there are a lot of folks out there who use the theory that there are many "lost" Tomari kata. Funny how they always seem to find them:rolleyes: Gene

Shitoryu Dude
12th April 2003, 06:25
I think that was one of the best explanations of why kata is so important I've read in a long time. Nice to see it put forth is such a clear manner.

Every now and then I see someone show up at the dojo who has transferred in from a kickboxing or "combat" MA school - while they all have some good sparring techniques most of them suffer greatly on kihon and basic understanding of their movements for efficiency, speed, balance and effectiveness. One of the common underlying complaints that brought them all to the dojo I train at is that for most part they had peaked in their training a long time ago and their instructor did not know how to bring them any further. Sparring will only take you so far - kata and other forms of training are required to truly understand what the art is in martial art.

One of my dojo buddies showed up without any fanfare about a year ago at our advanced kata class. I spoke to him a bit and learned he was Yondan in Goju ryu, yet it was disconcerting to see him do kata at a Shodan level. I asked him what brought him to our little dojo that was an hour's drive away and he said that he had seen my sensei do a kata demonstration at a tournament. Just that one kata made him realize that there was something very important he needed to learn and he made arrangements to train with us on the spot.

:beer:

Cody
12th April 2003, 07:53
I have to agree with Shitoryu san - one of the best argument for katas I've ever seen.


Originally posted by Machimura

You are training to be a kickboxer and not a karate-ka. No kata? What style is this? Hard sparring is bad for your weapon- the mind/body. How will you be able to defend yourself for a lifetime with this type of injurious practice? If you continue to train like that, by the time you are 45 you will feel like your 70! Old age is our most vulnerable time. Weakness and wear-n-tear set in. Why aggravate those conditions? Your sensei is not a sensei per se he is a kickboxing trainer. Especially if he does nothing but kickboxing.


My style is called Yoshukai jissen karate. I am not familiar with my style's history so I will bite my tongue. I only know my kaicho's name is Yamamoto.

My style has katas in karate and in kobudo; it's just that shihan chooses not to teach them in his dojo. I can only speculate why: he admits kata is something he isn't good at. However, Shihan is 9 times all Japan middle weight full contact champion. It's only natural that he focuses on what he is good at.

Most students who seek training in my dojo already hold brown / blackbelt in other styles before they come, I am one of those odd balls who don't have a karate background, but managed to stick around in Yoshukai for 2 years. And like I previously mentioned, shihan demands that I study karate and kobudo katas with a friend of his. I have to confess I haven't take up this assignment yet, cos I didn't like kata very much... but you might have me convinced enough that I will contact kyoshi Kikugawa after I write my finals in school.

As with injuries... from personal experiences, and from what seniors tell me in my dojo ... most of them will make you stronger, if you allow it to heal properly. But obviously there are notable exceptions. Head injury is one, join is another, spinal injury (ruptured disc) is another... we do try to prevent injuries, but I personally feel you can't study martial arts if you are always worried about getting injured and won't push yourself through what you perceive as your limit. A senior kept sparring after he broke his ribs and bruised his lung in a tournament, with over time and all. In fact, our rifle dojo never figured out he was injured. In a join dojo practice, a 3nd dan bruised his lung on his bout, and managed to finish 5 more 2 minutes fights before he had to stop. To me, that kind of mental toughness is beyond sportmanship. It's something I don't see in any other karate dojo I've been to, dojos that only teach katas and point sparring. This is one of the reasons why I dislike katas - I find it ludicrous to award black belts to people who can't fight their way out of paper bags, just because they can memorize a sequence of movements. They might as well be dancers.

I agree you cannot learn what real fight is without fighting on the street. But I feel the least a dojo can do to prepare their students is to forge mental toughness. I hate injuries, they force me to take break from practice; it also wastes my time and energy, and sometimes it prevents me from going to work/ school. But I still appreciate the lesson in mental toughness behind it. A year ago, I was crying just cos I was exhausted and in some pain (bruises). Now, I've fought with a broken collar bone and a dislocated shoulder. I can't imagine I will break down under exhaustion/ pain again.

Thanx for the lessons in history, I will go do some more readings after I finish writing exams. But, to make sure I didn't misunderstand you point, allow me to clearify - are you saying all Japanese karate styles are sport karate? Only okinawa karate is martial art?



And you are absolutely right about I only know sparring :o When I said find out abour your enemy, I spoke from tournament fighting experiences. Our rifle dojo video taped one of our top fighter's performance in a few international events and studied it to find out her weaknesses. As a result, she got nailed so badly on her last kyokushin tournament she had to cancel a few sponcered professional sport fights overseas. In fact, if she were to continue fighting mui thai/ kick boxing/ shoot fighting professionally, she must have knee surgery.

For me, the moral is: if you don't want to lose, find out about yourself AND your opponents. But your point is well taken. There is no way to know your opponent in a street attack.


Originally posted by Machimura

Hey you can only know what you've known. Right now sparring hard is fighting for you. I was like that when I was a teenager in a sparring intensive style (Shorinkan). I thought I knew what fighting was. That is until I started DJing at 16 in Doc's Disco on Field's Ave (Angeles City, Philippines). That's when I saw real life-or-death confrontations. Oh boy. NOTHING like "hajime" and "yame". Know that you know nothing. That way you can absorb what is useful and discard the drivel and window dressing. I felt you were totally respectful in your response. I can't hold lack of real world experience against you. All I can do is give you my perspective. I am trying to help not hinder. Trust me...;)
Bryan Cyr
Thanx for not clobbering me on the head for my ignorance :o
Oh yes, I believe in you. But then the last time I was awarded 100 push ups AND then send home with the message, "if no kime, no kiai, better no come. Go home, bye bye" ... I was pretty sure Shihan was trying to help me, not hinder, too =_= Karate people can be so insensitive! ;__;

Just kidding :D I really appreciate your inputs. I admit I had ignorantly cast kata off as useless form of dance without knowing what it is about, and I will make sure I find out more about katas and history in karate when I have more time. Thanx again!

-Cody

Markaso
12th April 2003, 10:43
Wow! What a great thread and discussion:toast:

I think it is fair to say that not everyone agrees that Kata is so important. But you sure can tell who does think it is an important part of training. I myself think it is. As for at what age should certain Kata be taught .......mmmmm ....... I think that it should be taught to a student when he or she is ready. When will that be? A good question and a good topic I think for another thread.
I think that just to teach a person a Kata so he or she can win a tournament is not a good determiner for the teaching of certain Kata. I feel that some of these competitions have gotten way out of hand especially for the younger practitioner’s.


Just my opinion.:smilejapa

Stickman
12th April 2003, 19:10
Hello folks,
I think we have seen good enough arguments that studying kata is essential to learning self defense from karate; what I would like to know now is, exactly what does kata teach us, and how do we have to study kata to learn it?
For example, is the intent of kata study to learn fighting "principles" ie. proper balance, muscle control, power generation etc? Or is the intent to learn a catalog of specific techniques...bunkai/oyo?

If the intent is to learn "principles", do we really need to study more than one or two kata's to learn them, do all kata's teach the same principles?

Maybe the intent is to learn principles through specific techniques?

As far as teaching advanced kata's to children, I think it is "how" a kata is taught that makes it advanced. At face value, Superinpei is just a series of akward movements, and what makes that kata valuable is is not mentally or physically understandable to a child.
It is just an exercise.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Shitoryu Dude
13th April 2003, 04:37
Those of us who have been around the sparring scene for a while have a saying about the newbies - they are one major reconstructive surgery away from realizing they are not superman.

Injuries do not make you stronger/tougher in any sense except to drive home to you how vulnerable your body is. Injuries take their toll because no serious injury ever heals back to 100% condition. You may not feel it for a couple of decades, but you will feel it eventually. Broken bones, cuts, deep bruises, sprains, dislocated joints - over time these all contribute to your overall health, regardless of how much time and effort you put into your healing and rehabilitation. At the tender young age of 40 I put up with an ankle that sprains all too easily since the first time several years back, and the vagaries of having a new tendon and a couple of bolts in my right knee. Stuff like that slows you down and impairs your movements. That's OK though, I fight dirty to make up for it.

Can I still perform? Sure. Does it cost me in pain to do so? Yes. I can't train like I used to due to injuries. Neither can most of the more experienced martial artists you will run into - they are able to compensate for it through expertise, but they hurt too.

Some things to think very seriously about if you plan to spar heavily. First, always wear your safety equipment. Second, know your limits and who you are capable of sparring with. Third, never spar with someone who has no respect for your pain and injuries. Fourth, make sure you have excellent medical coverage. Finally, take your vitamins and supplements starting at a young age - they will keep your joints in good shape. I'd stay away from intensive sparring unless I planned to make a career out of it. Of course, seeing what sort of wreck most pro fighters are by the time they are 35 is enough incentive to rethink that idea.

:beer:

Markaso
13th April 2003, 09:25
Mr. Moul

Well said. :toast:

Not many people think of the later just the now and that the injury will quickly heal. Start out taking care of yourself and keep healthy is a great point!

Machimura
16th April 2003, 02:08
Thanks all, especially Cody. You are doing a good thing. Kumite is important, but not all encompassing. You will go far. Thanks for the compliments guys, and train smart!

Bryan Cyr

BDW
17th April 2003, 13:13
I can understand your annoyance I to am a goju ryu karateka. Please keep in mind though that kata is taught based on maturity, skill. There is a few higher level kata that will be done at tournaments by younger people such as shisochin, sanseru ,kururunfa,sepai, sesan, and from time to time suparempie. I have learned many of these same kata from seminars and my own instructor and I can say by no stretch of the imagination that they are aesy kata to do well, so my over all opinion is if you can do a higher level kata and you can do it well then my hat goes of to you

domo arigato goziumusu

CEB
17th April 2003, 13:26
Hello,pleased to meet you. My name is Ed. What is yours?

Hank Irwin
17th April 2003, 14:04
Although I teach with traditional values when it comes to age & kata, I am also of the opinion that kata done properly is a beautiful and awesome thing. Age does not play a roll in that thinking. Constant repetition produces maximum results. The reasons behind kata are the basis for teaching it. To instill the technique within each kata, and provide a training regime for execution of bunkai within the physical practices of kata, work. I think otherwise kata becomes no more than a dance. I like to dance, do you?:D Doo Da, Doo Da!!

Sochin
17th April 2003, 15:17
Good morning, BDW,

welcome to this place.

And,
what Ed means is, please sign your full name pe rthe forum rules posted at the bottom of every page.

thanks, :)

BDW
17th April 2003, 16:02
My full name is Ben Wallace please fogive me for my lack of memory

Shitoryu Dude
18th April 2003, 18:48
Ben - go to your user cp and set your signature line to display your full name with each post. Forum Rules.

:beer:

Machimura
20th April 2003, 09:54
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
Although I teach with traditional values when it comes to age & kata, I am also of the opinion that kata done properly is a beautiful and awesome thing. Age does not play a roll in that thinking. Constant repetition produces maximum results. The reasons behind kata are the basis for teaching it. To instill the technique within each kata, and provide a training regime for execution of bunkai within the physical practices of kata, work. I think otherwise kata becomes no more than a dance. I like to dance, do you?:D Doo Da, Doo Da!!

Hey as the kids say don't "front" on dancing! Hahahaha! Seriously though, rhythm is everything. Dictating tempo AND rhythm is everything. Music and dancing always helps, never stifles. The Okinawan fighting arts and classical arts have always been/are closely intertwined! (See Machimura's 'Bucho Ikko'). Oh, you already have? My bad. Have a great week Victor!!!:)

Bryan Cyr

Hank Irwin
20th April 2003, 16:35
Happy Easter everyone! Don't eat too many eggs,eh?:rolleyes: I myself think all MA's should study dancing. It's a good way to let off steam and let yo' hair down. My daughter even uses kata moves sometimes in dance, subtle but there. But, some of the dance nowadays is bump and grind, grappling maybe Hahaha! But really, for the most part we need to let our kids be kids. The reality will set in way before you realize it. First they need values, then we can move on to more important things, honor,loyalty, patriotism, and a sense of duty to one's self and to others. These are things our kids need before we send them out. Too many dojo/dojang/kwoon do not instill this, many do though. The schools that are not business oriented IMO are the best places to start. I think though, education amongst parents is where it begins. ;) heiwa everyone!!

Markaso
21st April 2003, 15:50
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
It's a good way to let off steam and let yo' hair down.


Please no hair jokes:D

Used to be I could let my har down now it only goes up and back:laugh:

Well anyway Happy Easter back!!

RobertW
30th April 2003, 22:34
On this subject I will say this: If the student is at the right level of experience and has the right rank/# of hours training, then I will teach the next form. That is what someone's system is for. If someone wants to teach a Kata to a child so they can win at tournmaments then Karate becomes sports, and it loses its "artistic expression" The one thing I hope is that at said tournament I am not a judge because if I see that it is usually pretty obvious and I will mark it accordingly. unfortunately, I have seen a really crappy unsu win in that situation.

Hank Irwin
1st May 2003, 04:55
Rank has nothing to do with it nowadays. I have seen SanDans and YonDans that were no better than chudan (green/brown)deshi. Time IS the factor. If you don't have the time in, you shouldn't be learning more and more kata. Thorough study of ANY kata will take a year, and that's if you work at it EVERY day. :D Movement of applications should be as "fluid" as kata, with study, this takes time. I teach Ueichi-ryu Sanchin no kata as 1st kata. You study this for 6-12 months before next kata, depending on how much time you put in, in those 6-12 months. The serious student will put in a lot of time, hence, progressing faster. When I was young deshi, I couldn't get enough. I am still the same way though. Speaking of hair, I am lucky, I guess. At 47ish still have my ponytail(2'long), and head full of hair. Must be all that ginsing and Fo Ti Ting.:cool:

This thread is an important subject matter to all of us who teach kids. Too much is actually being lost to commercial values when it comes to passing down the traditions associated with teaching martial arts. Too many times martial arts are associated with Hollywood and it's glamor. That's what the general public sees. I believe that's where most of it comes from, the movies and TV. I was first fascinated with Cagney when a little kid. Can't remember the name of that damn movie though, war movie, fighting the Japs. Anyway, from there it went. I was lucky in my pursuit of a good teacher though, took me 2 trys but I found my destiny with the Sensei I have now.

Finding a good teacher for your kid is not easy, especially if you don't know what you are looking for. Martial Arts, no matter what the system, are combative in nature. Some more combative than others, depending on what you are looking for. At least with the general public becoming more internet savvy, they can find more info to help in their decision on where to take their kids. The biggest thing to remember in considering a school, is the school disciplines(school creed/kun), how they are taught to your kids, and how they are administered in class. Most schools will have them on the wall in plaque fashion and such. A parent should be involved with their childs life so, they should observe class when ever they get the chance. This is important. A parent that does not, I would be worried about that. A good Sensei will sense this also,... how much does his Dad/Mom come to class? Hmmm:D

I know myself, when I teach kata, it takes effort and sweat for both parties, and an obligation from the student... to practice hard, and then some. I teach NO bunkai until the student has learned the kata sufficiently, usually, maybe a year. Then I tell them when asked, "What do you think it means?" Then I show them.:D

RobertW
1st May 2003, 15:51
Mr. Irwin

I totally agree. True Karate is being lost with the Martial Arts conglomerate. The big business of Karate. Sports Karate. True Karate is not sports!

The reason I mention rank is that I try, in my Dojo at least, to match skill level and time to appropriate rank level. Although I am all to painfully aware of the lack of this elsewhere. I must say I teach a little more than one form pere year for the kids. More like two. Naihanchi first, then Pinan. In order of course. I find kids just can't take in much more. as for as Bunkai. My teacher says that ultimately, back in the day, you did'nt start learning that until you got your Shodan. At any rate, I am so busy working on basic and stances that I have little time at this point teach bunkai for my kids. A little for the adults, but that's it.

Hank Irwin
2nd May 2003, 03:32
Ahh! Robertsan, what people want sometimes, amazes me, you know? It takes a long time, most of the time, until you find that one student. And sometimes in a long span, it's only that one student you find. My Sensei has taught 100's, yet I, and two of my brother students remain from the "Dark Days" as I will refer to them. In the early 70's we had a tribe of Shorinji Warriors. Real KarateDo takes a commitment that most do not comprehend until they are a few years into it. Most quit by the time they are Shodan, not realizing that the journey is coming, not been going on. For the most part it is a trial and error for the student up until Shodan. It took me 10 years to reach ShoDan, the old way. These days you can get Shodan in 2 years, and that's from a "traditional" school. :mad:


Robertsan, you teach Naihanchi Shodan as root kata for your system? Do you teach saika tanden principles within also? Ever hear of O'Naifanchi? Just curious. I teach Pinan Shodan 2nd, Nedan 3rd, Sandan/Wansu 4th, AnaKu/Naihanchi Sho/Matsumura non Kun Sho 5th, Seisan/Sakugawa no Kun 6th, Dai en Sho/Renai no Jo 7th(this is the time that I leave it up to the student to study another weapon, but by their choice,except kama, and sai, leaves many to choose from)This is up to brown belt level.(chudan) It will take at least 5-6 years of intensive study to achieve this. This is how it should be, at least within the principles I learned.:cool:


But the way I took is not necessarely everone else's way.:nw:



Every day, I bow before class, and I think of the one's that have gone before me, first. Heiwa