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Johan
16th March 2003, 16:49
I dont know if this is the proper thread for this question.

In my old organisation the minimum dan was 4 dan to be promoted to RENSHI. Now I have heard from som budofriends that use 3 dan as the lowest dan for promoting students to the level of RENSHI. Do you have any thougts on the subject, was is the geneal practise.

And I know that in som arts without dangrades they also use renshi-kyoshi-hanshi. I am just curious about how it is used in modern budosociety.

I throw in one more question, the title TASSHI I have seen being used before RENSHI. Have anybody som info about that.

Gene Williams
16th March 2003, 17:45
Hi, I train in Shito-ryu, and I can tell you how we, and many other orthodox ryu, generally do it. By the way, people in this country are title happy. Renshi means "to polish", so a renshi is one who does a lot of hands on teaching and, well, polishing. Like a drill instructor. Yondan is usually the minimum rank for the title of renshi. It is generally a dojo rank, meaning that a renshi is not usually thought of as having his own school, but in this country people start teaching on their own way early. Shihan Dai is an assistant instructor, usually godan or higher, and Shihan is a senior instructor, sixth dan or higher. These are what I consider to be "field rank" or hands on teaching titles. Most of us really prefer to be called "Sensei" by our students. In more formal settings or at big events, Shihan gets used more. Kyoshi and Hanshi are more senior titles generally given at 7th or 8th dan and indicate very high achievement in the eyes of other seniors in your ryu. Many times these titles are only given by the Soke (founder), or Kaicho, head of the organization. By the way, people don't give these titles to themselves! Many in his country forget that. I wish I had a nickel for every Soke in the US. Gene

kaishaku
16th March 2003, 18:14
In our school and jujutsu organization we have three teaching titles:

Hanshi, is the model teacher. It is the highest of a series of teaching titles given. It is used on certificates, not as a proper title.

Kyoshi, is the teacher of teachers, a knowledgeable person. It is the middle of the teaching titles.

Renshi is the polished teacher. It is the lowest of the teaching titles.

The titles of Hanshi, Kyoshi and Renshi, (in order if significance) are known to us as “shogo”, or teaching titles. In our jujutsu style they are a recognition of one's contribution to the art (and considerable time in the art). As we are gendai (modern) bujutsu /budo we use “dan grades" as the ranking for technical ability As well, teaching titles are only awarded to those who have been granted a teaching licence (menkyo), which is another separate entity.

In policy and practice, we have no automatic teaching title to technical ability (dan rank) equivalencies. However, no level of teaching licence is awarded to any person who has not achieved a godan (5°) in technical ability and has successfully completed the shoden, chuden and joden levels, at minimum. Most have completed or are nearing completion of Okuden as well. Thus, one could conceivably reach a high dan grade such as nanadan (shichidan 7°) and not be able (allowed) to teach independently whilst another lower dan rank (godan minimum) could.

Hence, the short answer to your question is that godan (5° black belt) would be the minimum technical grade for Renshi in Yamanaka Ha Shindo Ryu Jujutsu (although not automatic).


Regards,

Frederick D. Smith

dsomers
26th March 2003, 14:54
In The US sometimes Renshi is given as low as San Dan , but most systems between Yon Dan & Go Dan . Then Kyoshi at 6th - 8th Dan . Then Hanshi at 9th & 10th .
However in Okinawa most of the time , the title Renshi isnt given till Roku Dan , then Kyoshi at Nanna Dan , followed by Hanshi at Ku Dan . Sometimes the title of Hanshi Sei is also given , but is bestowed upon them when they pass away from what I understand . In Okinawa these titles are distinguished by stripes on your belt . One stripe is Renshi , 2 is kyoshi , 3 is hanshi . However in Japan & alot of the systems in the US , they would get another belt . San Dan Renshi - A red & white belt horizontally , w/ Black on the outside & the white side up , 4th Dan - white up , w/ black on the inside , 5th Dan Red up , w/ blk on the inside . Kyoshi - Black w/ a red stripe down the middle , then at Hachi Dan alot of systems give a thicker Red stripe . Hanshi - Red belt . Now sometimes they would have the title of Shihan , which is signified by a red & white panel belt . I think some of the Jujutsu systems use another belt system , Black & Red panels for renshi , then Red & white panels for Kyoshi , followed by the solid red for Hanshi .

David

MarkF
27th March 2003, 07:27
Originally posted by Johan
I am just curious about how it is used in modern budosociety.


Or perhaps how it is over-used in modern budo society.

Man, I've not seen so many ranks in such a short thread which isn't in baffling budo. I don't understand the reasons for all of them, but there is only one master [shihan] in Kodokan Judo and that is Jigoro Kano. I've not seen or heard anyone in judo, including all past ten dan (Kodokan recognized. There is one living 10-dan Antonius Geesink, but recognized only by the IJF, not the Kodokan) referred to as more than sensei.

Nearly half of all 10-dan have been awarded posthumously since the opening of the Kodokan in 1882. The last was Sumiyuki Kotani (the last 10-dan while still living) who passed away in the early 1990s, I believe. The Kodokan has stated it will not be issuing any 10-dan anymore, but then they said the same before Kotani, too.

Normally, first names, last names along with sir (or sensei) are used inside a dojo. Sensei is almost never used by a higher ranking, but younger person by the older student. "Judoka" in reality, is only considered when one reaches 4-dan or 5-dan. Before that, one is "judoshugyosha." Judo is probably the one MA not fixated on rank (generally, there are always a couple) along with kendo, dojo or otherwise, though the dan-I system of grading was originally a dojo rank, with licenses at the various steps. BTW: No kyu-grades existed early on and beginners were given densho stating they were beginners: Shodan. There is room for 11-dan and 12-dan, but to date, it hasn't even been considered as far as I know. Some at the Kodokan have stated Kano is considered to be the equivalent of 12-dan, but then, there was never a cap put on the dan-I system, so perhaps it should be 20-dan? Others there say it is untrue, and clearly, there isn't anything in writing to clear it up one way or the other. Dr. Kano never accepted any dan rank during his lifetime, and if anyone tried, he said he'd raise the bar so high that no one could reach it..

Menkyo, schmenkyo, they are all honorifics, especially today.;)


Mark

DustyMars
27th March 2003, 10:54
I was taught from an early age that when asked what my Judo title or rank is, to simply answer “Judoka.” Maybe it was some humility thing or that we just were not so interested in such things as titles. It kind of goes along with the old adage, “it’s better to be a good brown belt than a bad black belt.” No one in my past ever commented on such titles or ranks that are often posted in messages in this group, so it is all new to me. Maybe it is an American MA thing!

Joseph Svinth
28th March 2003, 02:33
Perhaps we should judge rank with a tape measure. You take the tape and put it around a male's abdomen, at the navel, and a female's hips, at the largest point. You then divide by 4 and round up, and that's the dan grade.

Ya think?

BTW, ya'll do know where Santa spends the off season? Teaching karate, of course. Where else would a fat guy in a black-belted red suit spend the off season?

MarkF
28th March 2003, 05:41
Santa is a Menkyo Hachidan.:p

I'm a sandan by Joe's new rules to claiming rank, and I think it is a good idea. The best of them would never rank shodan until at least forty, perhaps fifty in the rarest of cases.

Jeff,
The way we said it in response to someone's gagging on rank and black belts: "I'm only judoka," so yes, that was about it, or actually, more often than not, most said "I'm a judo player."
Then the conversation went back to the karate Menkyo hachikaiden, I was left to sweeping the mat absent mindedly (a mat was not necessarily under one's feet, but you know what I mean).

BTW: That "karate" word I mentioned, that was a very generic, watered down kurroddy, not mentioned with any derision at all.:up:


Mark

PS: Actually, I'd be a kyudan under "Joe's Place" black belt rendering plant. What could I have been thinking?

I do seem to recall reading that ranks such as kyoshi, renshi, hanshi may have gotten their start at the judo and kendo schools of the Dai Nihon Butoku Kai of old. The one claiming historical links today, all have ranks such as those, it seems.

DustyMars
28th March 2003, 13:13
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Perhaps we should judge rank with a tape measure. You take the tape and put it around a male's abdomen, at the navel, and a female's hips, at the largest point. You then divide by 4 and round up, and that's the dan grade.

Ya think?

BTW, ya'll do know where Santa spends the off season? Teaching karate, of course. Where else would a fat guy in a black-belted red suit spend the off season?

My first black obi is too small to go around me now. I got it when I weighed 130-lbs and now I wear a size 40 pants!

DustyMars
28th March 2003, 13:15
Originally posted by MarkF
Santa is a Menkyo Hachidan.:p

I'm a sandan by Joe's new rules to claiming rank, and I think it is a good idea. The best of them would never rank shodan until at least forty, perhaps fifty in the rarest of cases.

Jeff,
The way we said it in response to someone's gagging on rank and black belts: "I'm only judoka," so yes, that was about it, or actually, more often than not, most said "I'm a judo player."
Then the conversation went back to the karate Menkyo hachikaiden, I was left to sweeping the mat absent mindedly (a mat was not necessarily under one's feet, but you know what I mean).

BTW: That "karate" word I mentioned, that was a very generic, watered down kurroddy, not mentioned with any derision at all.:up:


Mark

PS: Actually, I'd be a kyudan under "Joe's Place" black belt rendering plant. What could I have been thinking?

I do seem to recall reading that ranks such as kyoshi, renshi, hanshi may have gotten their start at the judo and kendo schools of the Dai Nihon Butoku Kai of old. The one claiming historical links today, all have ranks such as those, it seems.

Actually, that is what I menat to say, "I'm a judo player." If someone came to me while on the mat then if they asked my what my rank is I would just look at them and grunt :)