PDA

View Full Version : Hinin ryu/ Shindo ryu Aikijujutsu? (Eric Templet)



Nathan Scott
11th March 2003, 19:41
The following was split from the "AJJ in Louisiana" thread in the AJJ archive:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1747

Mr. Ward Pevey had announced a style of Aikijutsu called "Shindo ryu Aikijutsu", and after visiting their website at shindoryu.com I posted the following response (split from original thread in order to allow on topic discussion):

I went to your website and found a few things interesting:

http://www.shindoryu.com/shindoryu/uniform.html
http://www.shindoryu.com/shindoryu/officers.html

I've never seen a martial arts group create formal military style uniforms. What an interesting idea. Do you issue CIBs and purple hearts as well? If I may ask, what is the point of a military style uniform - tea parties?

From this page:
http://www.shindoryu.com/instructors/templet.html


6th degree black belt Eric Templet Shihan is the senior instructor. He has been training in the martial arts since age 5. He served as both a sensei and a shihan at the Hininryu Aikijutsu Society (1994-1997), and founded the Shindoryu Aikijutsu Association in 1999. He also holds a first degree black belt in karate and has studied Tai Chi Ch'uan extensively. He is the author of Aikijutsu: The New Way.

Did I miss the part about Mr. Templet's "Aikijutsu" training? Later on in the page someone named Hirohito Suzuki is named as one of his instructors. What did he teach and under what authority? Who did he receive shodan in Aikijutsu from in 1989?

It's probably a coincidence that Emperor Hirohito and Premier Kantaro Suzuki were both important historical figures ca WWII. Maybe Hirohito Suzuki's parents were patriotic, or...?

I noticed a photo of someone using Judo's tomoenage. Is that an Aikijutsu technique?

While the page does mention that Mr. Templet founded this "Shindo ryu Aikijutsu Association" in 1999, has two dojo in the US, and supposedly has some relationship with Daito ryu (or ditto ryu), but does not show evidence of any such connection. Could you help us out here?

Thanks,

kaishaku
11th March 2003, 23:47
I, too, would be most interested in the historical lineage of this Shindo Ryu style. I have studied Shindo Ryu under Yamanaka Sensei and Shintani Sensei (who studied under Otsuka Sensei - Menkyo Kaiden in Shindo Yoshin Ryu) and I am licensed to teach this style.

As well, it appears to be a rather rapid promotion from Shodan in 1989 to Godan, 13.5 (max)years later.

Nathan, your comments concerning the uniforms are apropos. In 25 years of policing, I never thought of wearing my uniform on the tatami. Perhaps, it's about time we put the "Bu" back into "Budo."

As always, my opinion only.

Frederick D. Smith

Asechikan242
15th March 2003, 22:02
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Hirohito and Premier Kantaro Suzuki were both important historical figures ca WWII. Maybe Hirohito Suzuki's parents were patriotic, or...?

I noticed a photo of someone using Judo's tomoenage. Is that an Aikijutsu technique?

While the page does mention that Mr. Templet founded this "Shindo ryu Aikijutsu Association" in 1999, has two dojo in the US, and supposedly has some relationship with Daito ryu (or ditto ryu), but does not show evidence of any such connection. Could you help us out here?

Thanks, [/B]
In response to Mr. Nathon Scott's and Mr. Kaishaku's threads; I did not post my thread with the intent to have to defend myself nor my style of aikijutsu:mad: As to your question about our so called military uniforms, our organization is a student organization whose founder is a former U.S. Marine, and is on the campus of SLU as well as a private dojo. Those who are members of the SAA and who are elected officers wear the uniforms for our meetings and formal affairs. I am sorry that you have no need for such things but please do not demote them for I do not question or demote your school or training, I have no need for such pointless pursuits.
As to the lineage of our system I can only tell you what I know, Mr. Templet Renshi at the age of 5 trained under Mr. Hirihito Susuki in the style of Hinin-ryu, a dirivitive of Daito-ryu, where it broke off from there I do not know nor does it concern my training or performance of my techniques. I do know that our style has been influenced by others such as jujitsu because we utilize many ground techniques, many of todays modern martial arts (judo, aikido, etc..)are nothing more than modifications or spin-offs of other styles. I am well aware of the basic history of Daito-ryu and have seen it performed. I am confident that our style is related and I feel no further need to research or doubt its lineage. For if you know the 4 pillars of aikijutsu, its philosophies, ideals, and pricipals etc...would you be any less a practicioner of aikijutsu because of who you studied under? If my dog studied under Minimoto Yoshimitsu does that make him more qualified than someone who did not? I had only intended to inform people of an aikijutsu instructor who may be in their area and I feel no need to defend myself or my style further and I will use my Aiki training to blend and deflect.

p.s. I am sorry for this response but I felt that myself and my style were being attacked.

kaishaku
16th March 2003, 15:44
Mr. Pevey

My apologies if my comments concerning the wearing of uniforms was perceived flippant. However, the outward and/or ostentatious display of rank was not something that was stressed in my own experiences in the MA.

My comments and questions comcerning lineage were legitimate. In your reply you noted that your school's ryuso (founder) studied a derivative style of Daito Ryu called Hinin-ryu. I am unaware of this school, but I am unaware of many martial art traditions. That said, perhaps you could answer what is the specific history of Hinin ryu?

My Japanese is poor and I like to say non-existent. My understanding of "hinin" and "ryu" follows. There are many e-budo subscribers who have a much better grasp on kanji and its etymology and perhaps they may correct me or provide another interpretation. That said: (hopefully your computer can display kanji)

Example One:
Hi - 否 - negate, no, noes, refuse, decline, deny
Nin - 認 – acknowledge, witness, discern, recognize, appreciate, believe
when conjoined
"hinin" 否認 (n,vs) denial/negation/repudiation/disapproval/(P)

Example Two:
hi - 避 - evade, avoid, avert, ward off, shirk, shun
nin - 妊 - pregnancy
when conjoined:
"hinin" 避妊 (n,vs) contraception/(P

Example Three:
hi - 非 - un-, mistake, negative, injustice, non-
nin - 人 – person
when conjoined:
hinin 非人 (n) beggar/outcast


ryu 流 current, a sink, flow, forfeit, the kanji used for the “flow” of martial traditions in Japan

Hence, is hinin ryu the beggar's/ outcast school? or is the denial / disapproval school? or is the contraception school?

I recognize that the last interpretation certainly seems flippant, althuogh I believe humourous.

On a more serious note, any light that you could shed on this topic will be appreciated.


My Regards

Frederick D. Smith

Jason Chambers
17th March 2003, 14:47
Guys:

It's part of the STUDENT ORGANIZATION... Can't they have a chain of command and uniforms to indicate such. They don't wear Class A's to the dojo.

kaishaku
17th March 2003, 19:15
Mr. Chambers,


Originally posted by Jason Chambers
Guys:

Can't they have a chain of command and uniforms to indicate such. They don't wear Class A's to the dojo.

Answer: Absolutely. That's the wonderful thing about democracies. Enough about the uniforms.

Question: Mr. Scott inquired about lineage, which I reiterated, however there seems to be a distinct paucity concerning the history of "Hinin-Ryu." Consequently, the question remains, "What is the history on Hinin Ryu?"

Should Mr. Pevey read this post, I concur, in part, with some of his thoughts. He notes (and I paraphrase) that its's the practice of aikijutsu, its philosophies, ideals, and principles that is important versus the source of the information / teaching. This argument may have veracity, if those philosophies, ideals, and principles are historically accurate. Therein lies the conundrum.

Best Regards,

Frederick D. Smith

Nathan Scott
17th March 2003, 20:32
Mr. Pevey,

I understand your original intent in posting, but you have to understand that you are submitting your style for consideration to the whole world by posting it as a recommended style on e-budo. My comments and observations are based on the information provided by the website you posted in your submission. The fact is that there are far more fraudulent claims to AJJ than there are legitimate, and while I (for one) try to keep an optimistic point of view, the content found on shindoryu.com was not encouraging.

If ya'll want to wear formal duds to meetings, more power to you. You do understand that this is not exactly "traditional" though, and may or may not be completely understood/embraced by those in traditional arts.

At this point, I think the subject is worth discussing at more depth. If you are not prepared or qualified to speak about the specifics of your art, please provide me/us (publicly or privately) with an email address or some form of contact information for Mr. Templet and I/we will contact him directly.

For the record, if what you guys do is a good time, then keep with it. The issue is with claims of rank/experience with arts like Daito ryu if they are not authentic. If Mr. Templet cannot verify such claims, then he could simply discontinue claims to such an art and continue to teach his art (as its founder) with whatever credentials and licenses he can provide to prospective students.

While the forum members could (again) entertain debate as to what qualifies an art to use the names AJJ, AJ or ABJ, the fact is that anything with "aiki" can be justified on a fundamental level if desired - misleading as this is sometimes. Claims to lineage however must be substantiated.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
19th March 2003, 14:23
http://www.shindoryu.com/instructors/templet.html


Name: Templet, Eric T.
Current Rank: Rokudan (Renshi)
Teacher: Hirohito Suzuki, Stephen Young
Current Position: Shihan, President SAA
History:
Born: Nov. 4, 1976 Baton Rouge, Louisiana
1981: Began studying martial arts
1989: Received shodan in aikijutsu
1994: Graduated from Belaire High School and enlisted in USMCR
1995: Started Aikijutsu Club at Southeastern Louisiana University
1996: Received Honorable Discharge USMCR
1996: Dojo cho - Baker Aikijutsu Club
1997: Shihan in Residence - Komichikan Dojo
1998-1999: Shihan in Residence - Takikan Dojo
1999: Received shodan in karate
1999: Founder and first President of the Shindoryu Aikijutsu Association
2000: Received B.A. from Southeastern Louisiana University
2000: Promoted to rokudan
2000: Wrote Aikijutsu: the New Way
2001: Accepted instructor position at Southeastern Louisiana University
2001: Recieved M.A. from Southeastern Louisiana University
2002: Founded the Onamikan Dojo in Mandeville, LA

Makes for some interesting arithmetic.

Best,

Nathan Scott
19th March 2003, 17:15
Makes for some interesting arithmetic.

Funny, that's what I was thinking when I looked closer at some of the dates.

From what I can see, Mr. Templet is a 26 year old 6th dan Renshi, and founder/shihan of his own ryu-ha (at 22 years old). He claims to have received shodan in "aikijutsu" at about 13 years old from ?. Starting teaching at 18 years old.

In America, there are varying opinions about the subject of giving dan rankings to kids. But as a point of reference, Obata Sensei's daughter is now 17 years old, and has been in the dojo and training for literally all her life. Obata Sensei and his wife always go to the dojo together, and would bring the kids with them and have them train. His daughter is already better than most the senior students in our Honbu dojo, but Sensei will not give her a black belt yet because of her age.

I know that I've started to peak out in ranking in a couple of the arts I study based on my younger age (34, I think).

But anyway, I'd love to see some video clips or tapes of Shindo ryu. Or perhaps the book that is mentioned in the biography. Best way to get a feel for a person's level of study.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
20th March 2003, 11:31
Also, I think those uniforms indicate someone has some serious unresolved issues.

Lynn Seiser is a PhD psychotherapist. I'll ask him to take a peek.

Best Regards,

Don Cunningham
20th March 2003, 13:13
It's sort of difficult to be sure, but it appears that Eric Templet is wearing some military decorations as well as their own ribbons. Specifically, it looks like a National Defense Medal on the bottom lower outside. If he served for two years in the USMCR, from 1994 to 1996, I don't think this award was authorized during that period. The National Defense Medal is only authorized for those who served on active duty during war. It certainly isn't authorized to be worn with other non-military decorations on a non-military uniform other than American Legion or Veteran of Foreign Wars accessories.

I can't tell what the other ribbons are. My eyesight isn't that good. However, I would be surprised if any reservist was able to accumulate so many awards in only two years.

Greg Jennings
20th March 2003, 14:36
They give their own military-knockoff decorations including "Medal of Honor".

I, personally, find the whole thing extremely bizzare.

Ron Tisdale
20th March 2003, 16:19
You mean the "dito ryu" didn't give you a clue?

:)

Ron (pardon the rhyme) Tisdale

Don Cunningham
20th March 2003, 18:21
They give their own military-knockoff decorations including "Medal of Honor".
I'm certainly not an expert on military awards. I don't even know the correct sequence to wear mine. However, most of those decorations appear to be ribbons used for various scholastic and attendance awards in ROTC units. The National Defense Medal, though, is definitely a real military decoration. From what I see, this guy could not be authorized to wear it since (1) he was a reservist and (2) he didn't serve during war (his time was after the Gulf War).

Frankly, I don't have a problem with anyone creating their own formal dress uniform. I do have a problem when they start giving themselves undeserved medals. It's also interesting that the same guy on this web site is shown wearing two different sets of ribbons. He has the National Defense Medal on top of a smaller row of misc. medals on the page about dress uniforms, but on the bottom row of a much larger set of misc. ribbons on his biography page.

It may or may not be legal to wear unauthorized military decorations on some made-up formal uniform, but it really does bother me since I earned my decorations.

gmarquay
21st March 2003, 01:16
Actually,

The National Defense Medal was still being given durring 1994, for actions involving Iraq. I'd be lying if I said I knew exactly why. But I do know for a fact that it was still being given, because I recieved one rightout of boot camp. (Not that I felt that I had earned it, but we were told to wear them. And as an E-1 nobody, the last thing we wanted was to be "Out of Official Uniform".
While he was in the reserves, you are still considered to be on Active Duty while going through boot camp. Therefore, it is all together plausible that he was given the National Defense Medal. I'm on my second now (Afganistan), and I'm sure my small meager contribution to the war effort (from stateside this time), will garner me a third.
So, even though his style of "Aikijutsu" is highly questionable, his National Defense Medal is an actual possibility.

Just my two cents. Thanks for listening.

- Glenn Marquay

Gene Williams
21st March 2003, 02:08
Gentlemen,

It is my position, based on reviewing the material found on their web page, that Mr. Pevey and Mr. Templet may in fact be of an alternate class of primate that also features opposing thumbs but lacks other characteristics more commonly associated with humans.

I wonder if we could find another class of primate to discuss; one that does not tend to lose things.

Gene

[edited by Nathan Scott 3/21/03 for appropriateness, per forum policy. Every attempt was made to maintain the original intent of the post]

MarkF
21st March 2003, 05:28
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
Also, I think those uniforms indicate someone has some serious unresolved issues.

Lynn Seiser is a PhD psychotherapist. I'll ask him to take a peek.

Best Regards,


Isn't our own Phil Farmer (docphil) a psychotherapist? His opinion may be helpfeul.

Don has a great interview with a psychotherapist regarding this issue (or had, anyway) on his web site. The issue wasn't specific to those who make up their own military medals, but on MA soke dokey, basically. If it is still there, Don, you may want to post pertinent parts of it. It explains a whole lot of this, considering this guy's age, his experience level (shodan at thirteen, etc.), etc.


Mark

Don Cunningham
21st March 2003, 09:43
Here is the link to the article. This is also the same article which lead to me being sued by Rod Sacharnoski of Juko-Kai.

Dangers of self-proclaimed masters (http://www.e-budokai.com/articles/masters.htm)

Some relevant quotes:

"It's possible they feel powerless, weak, and frightened in most other areas of their lives, and therefore are attracted to the image of power," Dr. Cohen explained. "There is also the image of the 'master' who is capable of defeating all enemies and has incredible wisdom. If you're struggling with 'inner demons' and fears of your own weakness, this is an incredible image to connect to, to hope to be perhaps."

Frequently, these so-called masters accumulate or even create their own set of martial arts certificates or other documents in an attempt to legitimize their credentials. Often, these will include strange oriental characters or fictitious titles to make them appear larger than life.

"If you can't earn grand enough credentials, make them up," Dr. Cohen explained. "What you can make up can always be greater than anything anyone else could have earned."


"The capacity of the human mind to delude itself is always astonishing," Dr. Cohen noted. "I have dealt with some patients who believe things that can not be true. Sometimes there is also evidence of more pervasive psychosis梙allucinations, formal thought disorder, and such梑ut sometimes there is just this intense belief in what is patently not true. And I am never sure with them whether they know or don't know that they made it up."

kaishaku
21st March 2003, 19:47
I recently received an e-mail from Mr. Pevey who attempted to provide greater illumination upon the art of Hinin Ryu. I subsequently responded and advised that I would post any responses / findings if I didn't hear from him. I have had no further conatct to this point. Having reviewed Mr Pevey抯 rather lengthy e-mail in greater detail, the following points were evident:

Mr. Pevey noted that many people are too hung up on this AJJ lineage thing. He believes it is good to have this knowledge but uses an analogy of 搘ho invented to punch? as being a less important point than knowing how a punch is used.

He noted that his knowledge of the Hinin-ryu is limited but to the best of his knowledge it is best translated as 揵eggars school or 損oor man's school.

Mr. Pevey stated his Shihan is Mr. Templet who apparently began his training in Hinin Ryu at the tender age of 5 under the tutelage of a Mr. Suzukie (sic), who was a neighbor of Mr. Templet. Apparently Mr. Templet抯 Hinin Ryu teacher needed an uke for his son.

My Pevey stated that 揂ccording to what Mr. Suzukie (sic) told my instructor this style had been pased (sic) down through their family in Japan for generations. Unfortunately, this is, at best, is hearsay twice removed. Mr. Pevey explained that his Shihan was never afforded an explanation of where Hinin-ryu diverged from Daito-ryu. The supposition provided is that it occurred in the vicinity (time and/or place?) of Yomada Saburo.

Apparently, Mr. Templet (again heasay) has also stated that at some point in Hinin Ryu抯 evolution, the style began incorporating many other jujutsu techniques like ne waza (ground techniques) in addition to the standing techniques of Aiki Jujutsu

Mr. Pevey also forwarded the argument that the art of Aiki Jujutsu was very secretive for many years; hence, there exists a possibility that many of the styles (possibly meaning the derivations of the original) were lost and/ or never released on paper.

Finally, Mr. Pevey invited further research into this topic.

A few observations from my personal perspective:

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, one can take the above at face value. Given that it largely hearsay, perhaps Mr. Templet could provide the location of Mr. Suzuki who could answer the many questions that the data above poses. If he does not know Mr. Suzuki抯 whereabouts, the location of his youthful training with Suzuki would allow for a FOI records check (deed, registry etc.) and typically provides for a relatively quick location of a person.

Conversely, one can take a more critical approach and make the following points:

Virtually all the data above is hearsay. Although, I understand kuden (oral tradition having been the benefactor of this), the data above is not kuden.

The term 揾inin is an odd name choice, that can often be found in Ninja literature and refers to "non-humans", such as ninja. I have heard it used to refer to 搒ub-humans as well. Interestingly, three nights ago at my dojo one of my students after class referred to my technique (waza) of the evening as 揾idoi (cruel). I thought he said 揾inin (probably sub-consciously) to which he replied that he would never insult me with such a remark. Thus, I suggested Mr. Pevey and his Shihan to perhaps research the fields of ninjutsu / ninpo etc. for possible further clarification of Hinin ryu抯 genealogy.

The analogy of the inventor of the punch is a common sense argument, however somewhat simplistic. Picking up a few Aiki jujutsu waza is a relatively simple feat, as these are commercially available (book, video) and can even be found on the internet. Nonetheless, within most legitimate bujutsu there are gokui (principles), oku waza (hidden techniques) etc. that are not commercially available. For example in my school, many of the waza have omote (surface 枔to the front) and ura (beneath the surface "rear") applications. Thus, on the surface one can believe she or he is legitimately practicing Aiki Jujutsu, and may be on the surface, but the deeper meaning or essence is lost to that student.

I could go on but suffice it to state that further responses should originate from Mr. Templet and should contain levels of detail "beyond omote". For example: name of his teacher抯 son for whom he acted as uke, ranks attained when and where, menkyo awarded by whom in what, who/ when awarded the title renshi, etc. A curriculum vitae would be most beneficial. These are relatively simple questions to answer and can be independently corroborated.

With respect to summarily dismissing these Hinin Ryu claims, I will play the Devil's advocate. There are two venues: Prove that the art exists and is linked to some koryu (onus on Mr. Templet and his group) OR prove that it exists purely as a very recent (gendai) style (onus on the detractors, many of whom appear here in e-budo).


Best Regards,

Frederick D. Smith

MarkF
22nd March 2003, 06:35
I had thought the term "hinin" was the Japanese equivalent of "untouchable." I suppose one could take that any number of ways, but I was informed that it was equal to the untouchables of, say, India, who perform a dirty but necessary societal job.


Mark

Edit: I don't think it is even necessary to be the devil's left arm to ask for a simple lineage of some type. I can give the Kodokan Judo founder's lineage pretty well, but most experienced judoka can do that in a heartbeat. I don't think it is too much to ask in this case, either.

Making a point of "who invented the punch" is the same as "If it works, I don't care whether my teacher is a liar, it has worked for me." Everything one can do with the human body existed well before humans had ever thought to keep a record of it, so getting a brief history isn't asking too much.

kaishaku
22nd March 2003, 13:52
Mark

I agree. Your points are well taken and I always like to argue from both sides, if for no the reason than to generate discussion.

The physical aspects of the MA are not nearly as important as the mental, spiritual and character (excepting possibly for police officers, military etc like myself). With respect to honesty, ehtics, openness (all good qualities in the MA), these attributes are all more imprtant than "punching."

My experience is that people do not outrightly fabricate; rather they vary slightly from the truth and typically omit information. In this case, one simply needs to "fill in thre blanks.

Regards

Frederick D. Smith

Nathan Scott
25th March 2003, 00:58
I've finally emailed Mr. Templet at the email address provided on his web page, and invited him to this thread to offer his comments.

Regards,

Gene Williams
25th March 2003, 03:26
Perhaps Mr. Templet and his troop will brachiate in our direction if there are enough trees and vines to serve them as transportation. Hide the peanuts and banannas. Gene

Mark Jakabcsin
25th March 2003, 03:46
301 posts in less than 3 months. I wonder if a single one of them has even the slightest value, for surely manners ain't in any of them.

mark

Asechikan242
26th March 2003, 19:16
I have been asked to post the following statement:


Daitoryu Zealots,

I would like to make a statement to all of you in regards to your attacks on our art and my credentials. First of all, let me point out that many of you have violated the rules of this site, "4.Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect." Your comments where at best juvenile and uncalled for, and at worst slanderous and utterly hateful.
Instead of approaching your ignorance of our organization with an attitude of respect and peacefulness, you instead jumped to false conclusions and accusations. Rather than asking politely about our similarities, many of you made outright claims that we are not practicing "true" aikijutsu. When I, or Mr. Pevey, tried to explain the information, that was requested in a half-way civil manner, you dismissed what we said out-of-hand with no proof either way. I am afraid that no matter what I tell you I will fail to make a cogent thought appear in your heads.
I will say this, if you people are indicative of the type of students that Daitoryu produces, then perhaps I should not claim relationship to your art. You are petty and self-righteous; ignoring the possibility that aikijutsu could belong to other people beside you. In a time that people in this country, and across the world, should be celebrating what we have in common, you people have attacked those who claim to be your "cousins". You act as if we are trying to pass ourselves off as Daitoryu experts. You act as if we are writing graffiti on wall, attributing it to you. You act as if we are running a Daitoryu telemarketing scam, giving you a bad name. Until this point I have never felt anything but respect for the art of Daitoryu, but you people are clearly more concerned with what you see as your "pedigree power" instead of the true meaning of Bushido. But I suppose you already cornered the market on the meaning of Bushido as well.
As for my credentials, I know what I know. If I felt the need to have what I have accomplished acknowledged by any of you, I would have invited you to my testings. Is it legitimate? Do you care? Should I care whether or not you care? Would you believe it if it was shown to you? It is the unfortunate place of real combat that is the true test of rank, as it was before Master Kano developed such a thing.
In conclusion, it is obvious that nothing is to be gained by further talks with any of you. Of all the martial artists that I have come acorss in my 20 years of training, I expected you to be the most welcoming. If we are "wrong", and you are "right", then we don't want to be right. You follow your path and we will follow ours. I now consider this matter closed. I will not respond to any emails, nor will any of my students.

Eric Templet Shihan
:) :)

kaishaku
26th March 2003, 20:56
Mr Templet and Mr. Pevey,

It is too bad that you have decided not to read the responses to your posting because there does seem to be some pettiness occasionally in these fora. In this regard, you're correct IMHO. However, it does appear that you may have fallen victim to some of those things with which you now accuse others.

Your quote:
"Instead of approaching your ignorance of our organization with an attitude of respect and peacefulness, you instead jumped to false conclusions and accusations. Rather than asking politely about our similarities, many of you made outright claims that we are not practicing "true" aikijutsu."

Response:
Anyone can use the term aikijutsu. One cannot discuss similarities if she or he knows nothing of the art of Hinin ryu. When inquiries were made, no information was forthcoming. Currently, there is still a paucity of information. Rather, representatives on Hinin ryu / Shindo Ryu Aikijujutsu have chosen not to answer. I would agree that some flippant comments were made but I do not agree that your art was being denigrated outright.


Your quote:
"I am afraid that no matter what I tell you I will fail to make a cogent thought appear in your heads."

Response:
Might this quote be construed to be petty or insulting?


Your quote:
"if you people are indicative of the type of students that Daitoryu produces, then perhaps I should not claim relationship to your art. You are petty and self-righteous; ignoring the possibility that aikijutsu could belong to other people beside you."

Response:
Many of us do not claim to be students of Daito Ryu. I am not. I am a student and teacher of Shindo Ryu Jujutsu, an art that may be a "cousin" (to use your phraseology) of your art. It is surprising that you would not like more information on Shindo Ryu.


Your Quote:
"You act as if we are trying to pass ourselves off as Daitoryu experts."


Response:
I am not. Mr. Scott, however seems to have a wealth of knowledge on its history.

Your quote:
"but you people are clearly more concerned with what you see as your "pedigree power" instead of the true meaning of Bushido."


Response:
This was the first assertion you made that I took personally. Suffice it to state, Mr. Templet and Mr. Pevey, I have made the study of Budo a lifestyle for many years and I have taught it for many years as well. With respect to pedigrees, Mr Templet, your web site delineate several incuding dan rankings and teaching titles. FYI, these are the trappings of pedigree.


Your quote:
As for my credentials, I know what I know. If I felt the need to have what I have accomplished acknowledged by any of you, I would have invited you to my testings. Is it legitimate? Do you care? Should I care whether or not you care? Would you believe it if it was shown to you? It is the unfortunate place of real combat that is the true test of rank, as it was before Master Kano developed such a thing.

Response:
It is true that some of know what we know and sometimes we "think" we know. Is it immaterial wheter anyone attended your testings, if you are staified with them, that it is it. Period. With respect to your question of legitmacy and whether "we" care, I do care. I care that students are provided the opportunity to study sound traditional jujutsu. If that is what you're doing, great. Only you know the answer. Therefore, you're right, should yyou care whether or not "we" care. WIth respect to the true test of combat, I need not quote Kano Sensei, having had numerous opportunities in 25 years of law enforcement to have my art tested. Perhaps someday you'll be able to say the same.


Your Conclusion:
"It is obvious that nothing is to be gained by further talks with any of you."

Response:
A simple lesson from a teacher more senior than you:
"Baka mo ichi-gei"

This literally means 揈ven a fool has one talent You may see this thread as foolish and not worth your while but don't let your pre-judgement blind you.

Regards,

Frederick D. Smith

Don Cunningham
26th March 2003, 21:53
Mr. Templet:

I doubt that I can add more to the articulate response provided previously by Mr. Smith, but I also found your assumptions to be somewhat misplaced. I am not a Daito-ryu practitioner. In fact, I have little knowledge of Daito-ryu linage or techniques, nor do I have much interest in the subject. Yet, I still found many of the claims on your web site to be rather strange, potentially misleading. If you don't care about legitimacy, then why do you try so hard to associate yourself and your style with existing and well-known koryu martial arts?

I am somewhat taken back by your use of military style regalia used as part of your official dress uniforms. Since you were apparently not a Marine Corps officer, why do you feel it necessary to dress yourself in such accessories? Were you even an NCO?

Is this some outward expression of jealousy or resentment toward those who did earn such honors? Do you try to associate yourself with military power icons in an attempt to overcome your own feelings of inadequacy and fear? Or is it just another way to inflate your own credentials and so that others might view you as an authority figure?

Frankly, it just makes chills run up and down my spine to see how your organization has adopted military style icons, especially the use of award medal ribbons. You mentioned that combat is the true test of rank. So how much actual combat experience do you have? How has your performance rated in such real-life confrontations? I'm sure that I am not the only person interested in hearing about your competitions and face-to-face encounters.

Gene Williams
26th March 2003, 22:10
Dammit, Nathan, I'm sorry...I tried...Monkeys, I tell you, monkeys...
gibbering, chest beating, tree swinging, mimicking, peanut chomping, bananna sucking monkeys. Call the zoo, get the net. Gene

Nathan Scott
26th March 2003, 22:38
It is unfortunate that Mr. Templet has decided to over react to the tone of this thread and not answer any of the questions posed. His reaction is, unfortunately, predictable.

Mr. Templet replied to my email asking me to post (almost) the same comments on his behalf that Mr. Pevey has already posted. I suspect that he was already aware of the discussion before I emailed though since he registered a user account with e-budo 4 days ago.

Mr. Templet posted:


[Contributor] comments where at best juvenile and uncalled for, and at worst slanderous and utterly hateful.

I disagree. Some of the posts drew assumptions not yet based on hard facts, but aside from a reference to "monkeys and losers" - which I edited - there has not been anything slanderous and utterly hateful posted in this thread.


[The contributors] are petty and self-righteous; ignoring the possibility that aikijutsu could belong to other people beside you.

I disagree. There is nothing petty about questioning the claims of someone offering instruction to the public. "Aikijutsu" doesn't belong to anyone. That is not the point. We are peers (arguably) in an unregulated field of study and instruction, and as such I feel that the public has the right to ask for evidence of an instructors qualifications and claims who solicit the public for students. Simple. The days of being polite and not asking your instructor his credentials in fear of insulting them is over, in my opinion. At least in America.

The following is a quote from the letter Mr. Templet sent to me directly that does not appear in the version posted by Mr. Pevey:


In fact, I predict that because of your own narcissism, you will take my comments as "proof" that I must be a fraud, since I have been so disgusted by your behavior that I refuse to furnish you any further information.

Yeah, pretty much. What do you expect?

What do you have to lose by documenting your claims (answering our questions) in this forum? The readers will make up their own minds in the end.


As for my credentials, I know what I know. If I felt the need to have what I have accomplished acknowledged by any of you, I would have invited you to my testings.

Great. Why don't you simply advertise your art as being developed from "what you know", and not to an art(s) that has no apparent connection to you?


Is it legitimate? Do you care? Should I care whether or not you care? Would you believe it if it was shown to you?

Yes to everything. Read below for clarification, but in regards to whether we'd believe what you presented us, it would of course depend. Right now, however, we have been presented with zero, so we have nothing to evaluate.


It is the unfortunate place of real combat that is the true test of rank, as it was before Master Kano developed such a thing.

This comment is a little hard to follow, but FWIW, I've come to the conclusion that rank no longer has anything to do with skill level in martial arts (except for the possibility of some dojo somewhere). Anyone who still thinks there is should seriously look around. But teaching the public needs to be supported by some kind of credentials and authority as a starting point. And I don't mean those given to yourself.

**

Mr. Pevey wrote to FD Smith (Kaishaku) about some of the questions posed, and Mr. Smith replied to him advising him that he was copying me in his response. Here are my comments based on this correspondance:

1) Mr. Pevey also thinks the focus on claims to lineage are not as important as ability and technique. If Mr. Templet is disgusted with what he thinks Daito ryu exponents behave like(?), then yes - please DESIST from claiming lineage to arts like Daito ryu.

2) Hinin ryu apparently does in fact translate as "beggar's" or "poor mans" tradition. This sounds like a very uncharacteristic choice in art names, based on the nomenclature used in Japan historically. Hinin, as Mr. Smith and I discussed privately, is often grouped in with other sub-human classes like "Eta" (unclean), and are most commonly associated - in English writings at least - with ninjas. Mark asked if this class of people (or non-people) were similar to those in India, who perform a dirty but necessary societal job. From my understanding this is correct. But in any event, the choice of names is unusual at best.

3) Mr. Pevey reported that Mr. Templet began his training in Hinin Ryu at the age of 5 under the tutelage of a Mr. Suzukie (sic, Suzuki?), who was a neighbor of Mr. Templet. Apparently Mr. Templet?s Hinin Ryu teacher knew this Hinin ryu as a family art passed down for generations, and needed an uke for his son.

Any letters, certificates, pictures with this teacher or his son? Any evidence that this person existed or that he knew and taught some kind of art called Hinin ryu in America (or anywhere)? In classical jujutsu, the teacher usually takes the role of uke anyway. Is this not how Hinin ryu was taught?

4) Mr. Pevey stated that in their claimed lineage that they were not sure where Hinin ryu diverged from Daito ryu, but that it appears to have happened during the transmission period of "Yomada Saburo" (sic, Yamada Saburo?). Anyone ever heard of Yamada Saburo? I have.

But do a google search on "Yamada Saburo", and in the first page of results, look for a page titled "Aikijutsu and Aikido Genealogy". Click on the cached copy (old version) and follow the lineage chart (spelling fixed and notes added below as needed):


- Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu, 12th Century, Daito-ryu founder

- Saigo Chikamasa, 1829-1905, Oshikiuchi (part of Daito ryu)

- Takeda Sokaku, 1858-1943, Daito ryu Aikijujutsu

- Matsuda [Toshimi] Hosaku, Daito ryu Kyoju Dairi

- Yamashita Minoru, Shindo-ryu (possibly extinct)

- Yamada Saburo, 1926-1976, Yamate-ryu Derivative Traditional

Here we find a line of Shindo ryu being founded by Yamashita Minoru, and he supposedly having taught someone named "Yamada Saburo", who is quite likely a completely fictional person. Saburo is a very old name, found in lineages like the early Minamoto family lineage sited above, and not all that common in the last century.

This Yamada is the supposed founder of Yamate ryu, which is the art that Fredrick Lovret teaches. Lovret has not been able to provide an ounce of proof to his lineage claims either, and nobody in Japan can find evidence of this teacher having ever existed.

FWIW, I have not heard anything else to indicate a formal relationship between Mr. Templet and Mr. Lovret, so I don't know where this connection came from.

So what is Hinin ryu???

**

I posted this to the Lovret thread, and I think it applies here as well:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16376

Those still undecided about this subject are urged to read the following articles (linked from koryu.com and furyu.com):

Real or Fake? Is Your Martial Arts School Legitimate? (http://www.koryu.com/library/wmuromoto4.html), by Wayne Muromoto

Are You in A Martial Arts Cult? (http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/zanshin8.html), by Wayne Muromoto

The Whole Legitimacy Thing (http://www.koryu.com/library/kfriday1.html), by Professor Karl F. Friday

Confessions of a Navy SEAL (http://www.furyu.com/wayne/Dave%27sF/Confess.html), by Dave Lowry

The Classical Japanese Martial Arts in the West: Problems in Transmission (http://www.koryu.com/library/dlowry4.html), by Dave Lowry

The topic of credentials and "truthful advertising" is of concern to anyone seriously involved in martial arts. Being a trained martial artist is not the same thing as being a trained teacher. Technically, these skill sets are different, and require direct or indirect experience in order to become adept at them. These days, most arts have a teaching license that is seperate from their rank, or at least, a letter from their teacher authorizing them to teach (isshoku-jo). This type of formalization is something that needs to be increased and encouraged in modern times for those that intend to teach "the public". Studying martial arts is dangerous enough without adding the risk of studying under someone who is not qualified specifically to teach them.

Also, the curriculum and historical claims of the art (including who your teacher is/was) are of concern. There is an implied trust, as well as I suppose a perceived "pedigree" in studying an art that has a proven background of some kind. To claim such a thing falsley is considered fraudulent, and "false advertising".

All these things take advantage of a generally uninformed public/consumer in a field that is not regulated by any governing body (yet). That is why I don't mind documenting these types of discussions in forums such as these for interested parties to research easily.

**

I'm not in favor or initiating a massive internet "witch hunt" of possible unqualified instructors, by the way. But as suspicious instructors come to light, I do not see the harm in asking questions and archiving responses here for future reference.


If we are "wrong", and you are "right", then we don't want to be right.

Well, if we are "right" then we don't want to be "wrong". I mean... well, I'll leave the lyrics to someone else.

Sorry to all for the obnoxious length of this post.

Regards,

PS. I for one would love to read more about Mr. Templet's understanding of "Bushido". Is Mr. Templet's book still in print?

Nathan Scott
26th March 2003, 22:52
"Daito ryu zealot". Does that mean that I am a member of a fanatical sect arising in Judea during the first century A.D. and militantly opposing the Roman domination of Palestine? Fanatic, yes. Opposing Roman domination, no.

PS. I don't know what Gene is talking about.

Gene Williams
26th March 2003, 22:53
Liar, liar, gi on fire.:p

Mark Jakabcsin
27th March 2003, 04:24
Originally posted by kaishaku
I recently received an e-mail from Mr. Pevey who attempted to provide greater illumination upon the art of Hinin Ryu. I subsequently responded and advised that I would post any responses / findings if I didn't hear from him. I have had no further conatct to this point. Having reviewed Mr Pevey抯 rather lengthy e-mail in greater detail, the following points were evident:


Mr. Pevey stated his Shihan is Mr. Templet who apparently began his training in Hinin Ryu at the tender age of 5 under the tutelage of a Mr. Suzukie (sic), who was a neighbor of Mr. Templet. Apparently Mr. Templet抯 Hinin Ryu teacher needed an uke for his son.

........

My Pevey stated that 揂ccording to what Mr. Suzukie (sic) told my instructor this style had been pased (sic) down through their family in Japan for generations. Unfortunately, this is, at best, is hearsay twice removed. Mr. Pevey explained that his Shihan was never afforded an explanation of where Hinin-ryu diverged from Daito-ryu. The supposition provided is that it occurred in the vicinity (time and/or place?) of Yomada Saburo.

.........

Best Regards,

Frederick D. Smith

This story is identical to another story presented on this forum about 3 years ago by another individual concerning another art. While this similarity doesn't prove anything I find the coincidence interesting at the least. Five to seven years old, asked to be an uke for a neighbor to teach their son with NO verification of the son or the neighbor. Things that make you say, hmmmmmmm.

Due to a deletion of the orginal parties web-site from the net (at least I can't find it anymore and the site address I had saved is no longer valid) I can not offer more than my memory. Therefore I will not include the orginal parties name since I might be wrong. However some of you that have been involved with this forum for 3+ years might remember the orginal story teller as I do with the initials of R.A.T. No pun or joke intended.

As with Mr. Templet's post no proof offered, just something to consider. Take care.

mark

ps. Gene, STFU

Gene Williams
27th March 2003, 11:01
HI Mark, What's stfu? I'm not up on my abbreviations:D

yoj
27th March 2003, 14:07
When i was a kid, the guys behind my house were a couple of korean kids, we played a lot together, you know, kids stuff, making flashlights out of cardboard tubes and bits of wire, making a little morse code set, learning hitherto unknown secret korean martial traditions...

I liked being a kid....

Don Cunningham
27th March 2003, 14:39
Hi Gene,

I believe you are referring to Richard Tolson who proclaimed himself as the only person to have ever received a menkyo-kaiden (complete transmission of the art) in the previously unheard of Arashi-ryu. According to him, Arashi-ryu is allegedly a Japanese martial art incorporating kenjutsu and a variety of other weapons, including naginata (halberd), yari (spear), j (four-foot staff), kusari-gama (sickle and chain), tessen (war fan), and shaken (throwing stars). He also suggested that Arashi-ryu encompasses aspects of yoroi-kumiuchi (grappling in armor), hoj鬸utsu (tying a prisoner), and chikuj鬸utsu (the art of siege craft and fortifications).

Arashi-ryu's founder, Tanaka Kajir, purportedly trained Richard since childhood. According to the story, Mr. Tanaka founded Arashi-ryu in 1958 by combining his family抯 traditional martial arts techniques with aspects from more modern styles such as judo and karate.

There has been no evidence found to support the claim that Tanaka Kajir ever existed or lived anywhere in the U.S.

Gene Williams
27th March 2003, 15:28
Hi Don, I understand that among the hominids there are many branches and sub-branches. Mr. Toulson's and Mr. Templet's branches are some kind of sub-species. I trust that "sub" is no idle prefix when applied to Mr. Toulson or Mr. Templet. ;) Gene

Cady Goldfield
27th March 2003, 15:47
You guys are having waaaay too much fun with this thread.

Gene Williams
27th March 2003, 18:18
Hi Cady, I know. Things got so polarized on the Patriot Act thread, and Tony has gotten serious again on the reiki thread, and the innovation thread died. Where is a guy to go to have fun?:D Gene

Mark Jakabcsin
27th March 2003, 23:49
Don,
Please don't confuse me and my posts with Gene Williams.

Yes, you name the person I was thinking of. I just found the similarity in stories to be amazing. Practically identical in fact. Hmmmm. Not surprising that their response to legit questions was also similar.

mark

Don Cunningham
28th March 2003, 12:44
Hi Mark,

Apologies to both you and Gene for my mistake. :(

kaishaku
28th March 2003, 19:23
It appears this thread may be a "wrap." I cannot help but think that I wish I knew as much about the martial arts now, and my art in particular, as I thought I knew about it when I was in my 20's (which unfortunately was a long time ago).

Yours in Budo,

Frederick D. Smith

wagnerphysed
30th March 2003, 01:06
Those stories of how an art was transferred from an older Japanese gentleman who needed an uke for his son reminds me very much of a movie. I'm sure everyone knows it, "BLOOD SPORT"! Starring Jean Claude Van Damm, the story of Frank Dukes (sic). Sounds like this movie was very inspirational.
Only question I have is, why these gentlemen provided Menkyo's to the training partner as opposed to their own sons?

Chris Li
30th March 2003, 01:29
Originally posted by wagnerphysed
Those stories of how an art was transferred from an older Japanese gentleman who needed an uke for his son reminds me very much of a movie. I'm sure everyone knows it, "BLOOD SPORT"! Starring Jean Claude Van Damm, the story of Frank Dukes (sic). Sounds like this movie was very inspirational.
Only question I have is, why these gentlemen provided Menkyo's to the training partner as opposed to their own sons?

I don't know - I suppose that you'd have to ask Don Angier's instructor :).

Best,

Chris

wagnerphysed
30th March 2003, 14:52
Hmmmm! Good point Chris. But then again, Mr. Angier can prove the transmission of the art from Mr. Yoshida to himself. Also, I may be wrong but I think his teacher, Mr. Yoshida, did not have a son. Please correct me if this information is wrong.
The point I was trying to make is that there are a number of stories that are being discussed in this thread that are very similar to one found in a movie that premiered at about the same point in time that these stories seem to have come to light (mid-eighties). Maybe I am jumping to conclusions? It wouldn't be the first time. Maybe it is just a coincidence?

Richard Elias
30th March 2003, 16:33
Actually, if I remember correctly, Yoshida sensei had a son who had died during the war. But I could be wrong. At the time he taught Don there was no one else involved, just he and Don.

Additionally, Don does have many photos of his teacher, even some old photos from his youth when he was still living in Japan. He even recently took some students to the location where he first met his teacher and to the place where they used to train, both in Utica and both greatly changed since then. Don has had the same "story" since the 1950's.

wagnerphysed
30th March 2003, 21:44
Am I correct in my thinking that Mr. Angier's teacher was the son of Yoshida Kotaro. I thought I had heard the story of Mr. Angier's teacher having a son but I couldn't remember the details. Thanks for filling me in.

The situation that prompted this post definately warrants closer scrutiny. It's too bad that Templet took the opening to become defensive and not share his information. However, it is quit likely that this is because he has nothing ligitimate to share.

If I had truthfully experienced what he claims, I would not have put up with any of the remarks that have been written in this thread. I would publish every bit of credible evidence I had in an effort to put all the critics in their place and to show all those who were sincerely interested in my credentials that I was the real deal.

It doesn't look good for Templet:(

Richard Elias
30th March 2003, 22:10
"Am I correct in my thinking that Mr. Angier's teacher was the son of Yoshida Kotaro."

You are correct.
Sorry though, you don't win a prize.

Chris Li
30th March 2003, 22:55
Originally posted by Richard Elias
Actually, if I remember correctly, Yoshida sensei had a son who had died during the war. But I could be wrong. At the time he taught Don there was no one else involved, just he and Don.

Additionally, Don does have many photos of his teacher, even some old photos from his youth when he was still living in Japan. He even recently took some students to the location where he first met his teacher and to the place where they used to train, both in Utica and both greatly changed since then. Don has had the same "story" since the 1950's.

IIRC, there was no son in Don Angier's case. However, it's not unusual to pass things down to people not your son even in acknowledged Japanese traditions.

Don Angier, of course, proves himself through his abilities and the consistency of his "story", just as Sokaku Takeda did - someone who also lacked solid documentation of credentials in some areas.

Best,

Chris

kaishaku
30th March 2003, 23:32
Mr. Wagner makes a good point about proving claims with credible evidence. As I have previously pointed out, most people don't like to fabricate outright and therefore use various strategies to get around the truth.

One of the more common strategies, is that of "I won't dignify that question with an answer", or any similar response. I think of the various politicians who have been asked the famous "have you smoked marijuana?" or "have you had an affair?" questions and the response has been one of indignity. How hard would it have been to say "no", unless the answer was something else. People don't like to lie. There are many other similar strategies such as becoming defensive, insulted, having a conveniently poor memory, providing an answer that doesn't actually answer the question or omitting detailed information.

Making inquiries into qualifications, lineage etc. are not insulting or debasing questions. If everything purported by a martial arts teacher is true and credible, the question is "How would that person respond to these inquiries?" indignant? insulted? defensive? aggressive? or would she or he simply answer to the best of their ability. The choice is yours.


Best Regards,

Frederick D. Smith

Richard Elias
30th March 2003, 23:33
"However, it's not unusual to pass things down to people not your son even in acknowledged Japanese traditions."

Exactly, and so Kenji gave Don the name Yoshida Kensaburo so that he was in effect passing the art unto his son, albiet adopted.

Brently Keen
1st April 2003, 16:04
"People don't like to lie."

But they do all the time. It's probably more correct to say that people don't like to get caught in a lie. So rather than tell bold faced obvious ones - they construct more crafty lies, mixed with half truths and exaggerated stories instead. If they are unprovable and/or not easily verified so much the better.

Brently keen

kaishaku
1st April 2003, 17:17
Mr Keen,

People don't "LIKE" to lie. You're correct that people do lie all of the time. With respect to interviewing and interrogation (which I spent many years in policing both doing and teaching), a lie typically takes two forms - lie by omission (leave out critical information), lie by commission (outrightly fabricate.)

As has been pointed out, people "lie" throught the use of various tactics and strategies some of which you describe. To this end, we call this language "deceptive" which may also be a lie.

However, enough of semantics. People who tell the truth don't typically become insulted, upset etc. until AFTER they have told their full story and THEN are accused of lying. Key points - the full story is told, next - the perception of the teller that the listener must be incompetent if s/he doesn't know the truth when s/he hears it.


Best Regards,

Frederick D. Smith

Brently Keen
1st April 2003, 17:29
I posted that last post before I was finished and the 15 minute time limit wouldn't let me edit my post so here's the rest:

So often we tell lies because we're worried about what people might think - or we just want to make a bigger or better impression than we think we do or would - so we put different spin on, or leave some stuff out, stretch things a bit, exaggerate a little here and there (sometimes whole a lot). And all because we're not comfortable with the truth in some way.

Perhaps we sense something lacking, disapointing, or embarrassing about the truth, and so we fear what others might think if they really knew it (or us). There's a real poosibility that others might not like us as much if the truth were known. Perhaps because some real or perceived inadequacy might be revealed, and we worry that our influence over others could diminish. So it's much more comforting or less frightening to lie, to construct, and fabricate an alternate, more favorable impression instead - especially if it associates our reputations with something much larger than our true stories, indeed something greater than our real inadequacies. Perhaps if we can convince others that we do have "what it takes", then they'll adore us in some way that we crave, and just maybe they'll convince us in return, that we are something like what we wished we were.

The sham (or shame?) of so many pretender ryu's, snake oil dojo's and the phony credentials and histories of so many imitation samurai aikijitsu, bujitsu ninjitsu, these days is they've built their reputations and schools up like a house of cards - constructed in the same fashion as the various "World Sokeship Councils" that were all the rage a few years ago. A little scrutinizing wind comes their way and they just don't hold up.

Brently Keen

Don Cunningham
1st April 2003, 19:19
Mr. Keen,

While I agree that some people often fabricate out of a desire to impress others, I don't believe this is the real problem for most of the so-called martial arts "masters" which we find so easily on the Internet. Of course, some people do just want to be seen as authority figures by their more na飗e followers. They may fabricate their background to enhance this impression. For many of these martial arts "masters," though, I believe there are often much deeper psychological problems.

Frankly, the world is becoming increasingly complex. While most people learn to cope with such change, others feel extremely powerless, weak, and frightened in many aspects of their lives. A fear of being powerless causes such martial arts "masters" to create ridiculous martial arts teaching credentials and absurd sounding titles. This is also why you often see them claiming affiliations with organizations they view as powerful. Usually, they try to claim some association with elite military units like the Green Berets or Navy Seals or law-enforcement agencies such as police SWAT units.

Another common symptom of this extreme psychological fear often manifests itself in an even more dangerous form. Many of those "masters" who have problems with their own inner fears openly advocate extremely violent responses to perceived dangers. They often talk about life on the street as if danger lurks behind every corner. In many cases, they frequently promote the use of deadly force to any physical attack regardless of the intent.

We've all probably told stories about how big the fish that got away was or how we told the boss off, etc. For the most part, these are not really harmful and appear to be normal human behavior. The fabrications that really bother me are the paranoid delusions expressed by many of these self-proclaimed martial arts "masters" on the Internet.

Another frightening aspect is that many of them become convinced of their own stories, strongly believing in their own fallacy. These types are really living in an unstable reality. They are quite likely to react strongly to anyone who challenges their flimsy reality, viewing them as a potential threat to their very survival. They will go to nearly any length to protect their fragile world. This may be as simple as filing frivilous libel lawsuits in which they have no chance of winning. It may also result in even more dangerous behavior, even physical assault. Those challenging their claims are unlikely to consider it as very serious and may be unprepared for a violent response.

Brently Keen
1st April 2003, 21:46
Don,

I'm with you 100%. The "unstable reality of which you speak is the house of cards I was referring to. I think there are real issues from mild to serious psychiatric disorders, and even including dangerous predatory, and/or cult-like behaviors. I was just commenting briefly on the psychology of dishonesty and lying.

I believe that chronic dishonesty is a fundamental characteristic (and tactic) of all the posers and charlatans pretending to be teachers or masters of martial arts - sadly though such behavior is not limited to them. We seem to have reached an unprecedented level of societal acceptance and toleration for dishonesty in general. So much so that we have come to expect it and even (in many cases) applaud it. Case in point: our previous president, Slick Willie himself was elected to a 2nd term.

Truth these days is also considered by many to be entirely relative. If that's true, lying is easily seen as irrellevant or of inconsequence - it doesn't matter. Even the most honest among us must admit (if we're honest!) that we sometimes lie to avoid embarrassment or for some other reasons like those I mentioned above. Even so-called white lies while seemingly harmless to others - are still misleading, and contribute to the creation of false impressions.

When people's reputations and egos become dependent on their carefully constructed (false) impressions, they will tend to defend them, and prop them up with even more dishonesty - lest the house of cards fall down. One lie inevitably leads to another, and another, because you have to lie to keep from being found out.

It's my own opinion that even those more serious cases of which you are familiar, they all started in some way with some deep issues of inadequacy.

Typically these folks will use dishonesty coupled with some form of charisma or a dominating personality to feed or otherwise assuage their inadequacies - unfortunately it is usually naive, younger, or weaker people that become their victims.

At any rate, lying becomes for those individuals a habitual way of constructing and presenting a false self-image to the world, as well as to cover up, and/or feed their egos. Controlling and abusing others to maintain and feed those urges, and support the lies both extends from and contributes to maintaining the facade. It's all part of the house of cards, the grand charade, the circus freak show.

Let winds blow...

Brently Keen

Don Cunningham
2nd April 2003, 00:04
Brently,

I think we're on the same page here. My main point is that the falsehoods sometimes become reality to those with serious psychological disorders. To them, the story they tell is the truth. That's one reason they become upset if any person challenges their reality. If anything, they tend to be even more defensive, often irrational, when questioned about the inconsistencies or unlikelyhood of their fantasy life.

I've witnessed this firsthand, often here on this forum. Those who claim to be "soke" is usually one of the first indicators. High dan rank, especially for someone who is practicing a fabricated martial art style, is another indicator. Association, real or imagined, with elite military units or law enforcement agencies is a strong indicator.

I've tried to define some of the common traits. Here's the list of themes I've noted so far:

1. Former member and/or self-defense instructor for elite military forces, intelligence agencies, or law enforcement

2. Military or law-enforcement veteran, frequently fictional or greatly exaggerated claims

3. Trained extensively with Japanese or other Asian instructor, often under circumstances requiring secrecy

4. Often adopt flamboyant martial arts titles (soke, shihan, grandmaster, etc.)

5. Frequently assume or purchase academic titles, degrees, etc.

6. Typically male

7. Frequently incorporate religious themes, especially fundamentalist doctrine, into martial arts study

8. Often outspoken about objections to others they consider self-promoted or lacking legitimate experience

Furthermore, their attitudes, especially regarding martial arts practice, often reflect their inner fear and intense need to seek external support. For example:

1. Affiliates with organizations perceived as powerful

2. Advocates violent responses to perceived dangers

3. Obsessed with images of potential danger lurking in everyday situations

Using this as a checklist, you can pretty much identify those with serious delusions from those who just have big egos. I'm sure you can recognize several of the Internet martial arts "masters" from these lists. I sure know a couple that score 100% with honors. There's been several others identified in these forums who also score high. The main subject of this thread certainly qualifies in my opinion.

Uriah
14th April 2003, 18:16
Just one point that may be of interest...(other than the fact I have too much time on my hands)

According to the Shindoryu website, Shihan Templet was born on November 4th, 1976.
According to Shihan Templet's own personal profile here on E-budo, he was born on April 5th, 1977.

Perhaps someone absorbed a blow to the head while attempting tachidori?

And the entropy of claimed legitimacy continues.....